Principles of Spiritual Discernment
April 24, 2008 | No Comments
4/26/08 Broadcast: Principles of Spiritual Discernment
There were problems with the recording of this week’s show, so we’ve posted a revival-related message preached by Dr. Brown:
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April 25th, 2008 @ 10:22 pm
In recent weeks, there have been exciting reports of fresh revival breaking out in America. How should we respond to such reports? Are there biblical principles that help us to embrace that which is genuine – without being gullible – and reject that which is false – without being cynical?
In today’s show, we’ll look at some of those principles, laying out scriptural guidelines that will help us to cultivate godly attitudes towards revival. And while we’re at it, we’ll present a working definition of revival so we’ll all be on the same page during the broadcast.
Can we expect revival today? Are there pitfalls to revival? Can we live without revival? We’ll shed light on those questions today and continue the discussion here online.
April 26th, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Question:
Do angels come down from heaven, enter people, and heal them? If not true, should we not be calling this preacher into account for their false doctrine? Where do you draw the line when it comes to doctrine that is false?
April 26th, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
I wanted to share this link with you all, it is from a book written by Derek Prince some years ago. I believe it would behoove each of us to read the first chapter prior to walking into any Charismatic meeting.
http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm
April 26th, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
Byron,
I’ve never heard the claim that “angels come down from heaven, enter people, and heal them,” so I’m curious to know where you have heard this preached and by whom. More details would be terrific. Thanks!
Lisa,
I’m glad to know that Derek’s very useful book is on line, but I’m curious to know why you think the book should be read before “walking into any Charismatic meeting.” Derek was a strong Charismatic himself, very much involved in the things of the Spirit, and as I recall, his book was written to deal with contemporary claims of revival, not the Charismatic movement in general. Can you clarify? Thanks!
April 26th, 2008 @ 7:09 pm
I have watched this move pretty closely, and I have never heard anyone claim that ‘angels come down from heaven, enter people, and heal them’. Todd does speak of healing angels, using the reference from John 5 concerning the pool of Bethesda where the angel came down and stirred the waters.
Dr. Brown, do you see where one could use this scriptural reference to support the teaching of ‘healing angels’? Even if one disagreed with that personally, or interpreted it a little differently, would you consider it a ‘deal breaker’ where the move is concerned?
April 26th, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
Hi Dr. Brown,
Just so you know we are pretty much in agreement theologically 
(Lisa R. from the BRSM Pioneer class here
It was simply semantics…In my post, I was attempting simply to differentiate between people who would likely attend a Spirit-filled service as opposed to a more main-line denominational service, so I chose to use the word Charismatic (of course I could have used Revival/Pentecostal,or other terms for a service where the Holy Spirit is said to be moving), in a neutral way so as not to appear to be pointing my finger towards any particular “move of God”…
As I read the first couple of chapters on the link that I attached, Derek Prince clearly spells out how we can differentiate between a true move of God and a move of some other spirit. My post was a very sincere effort to provide a good sound teaching to others in the Body of Christ. My sincerest hope and prayer is that God would grant His Body a great deal of discernment, it is vital that we don’t just open ourselves up to whatever wind blows our way, but that we stay grounded in His Word.
I hope you and yours are doing well, you have always been such a blessing to us
Lisa
April 26th, 2008 @ 10:56 pm
Hi Dr. Brown,
In regards to the “Angels” comment. It was made a few nights ago on God TV live from Lakeland Florida. The Evangelist stated that he was seeing angels coming down, and entering people, and they were healing angels, starting to heal people. In fact as I write this, he just mentioned that angels were in the room healing people.
This particular evangelist is from my hometown, so I have been following his ministry for ten years. He has been preaching about angels for years. When he gives his testimony, he states that the healing angel that followed William Branam was now following him around. I believe he states her name is Emma. There are a few Fire graduates that live up here in Western Canada, and we frequently attend his meetings to document the doctrine being put forth. We believe that this evangelist has a very contagious personality and people have to know what his true doctrine is.
I have met this evangelist many times., and he is a nice guy. From attending his meetings over the last 10 years, I see him as having no biblical training. He was radically saved, and pushed out into ministry as a little baby. He has developed a lot of if his philosophy from his mentors that are based locally out here in Western Canada. He is a very charismatic man to watch. I feel people are getting caught up in the emotion of the meeting, and they are not hearing the message that is being preached.
I am a believer in the miraculous. I have seen angels, and demons. I have prophesied, and I have been knocked down by the healing power of God. I just get very concerned when fundamental doctrines in the Living Word of God are changed. I believe the Holy Spirit works together with the Word, because ultimately is He not the one who authored it?
April 26th, 2008 @ 11:32 pm
I have googled this particular evangelist’s name and the documented error that is to be found (most of it, evident from his own writings and videos) is serious, and I believe gives great cause for concern. According to my research, he has been mentored by Patricia King…a woman who some Christian leaders have spoken with at length and finally found it necessary to publish a letter of warning in regard to her ministry.
The letter follows:
A BRIEF STATEMENT CONCERNING THE DOCTRINE AND
MINISTRY STYLE OF PATRICIA KING, by Gatekeepers International, Phoenix, AZ
(As of June 21, 2007)
Because of a recent and widespread outburst of controversy related to the doctrine and ministry style of Patricia King in segments of the body of Christ to which we are related, the undersigned reluctantly and cautiously sense an obligation to release this brief statement of our position.
Particularly over the past two years increasing numbers of Christian leaders with whom we are related have been asking us our opinion of Patricia King and her ministry. Although this would not have been our choice, circumstances converged to the point that we felt compelled to look into the allegations in order to form balanced and accurate opinions. We discussed this with peers representing both sides of the controversy in roundtable settings, through personal conversation with individuals who have dealt with the situation first hand, in consultation with those who have specialized in some of the theological issues raised, listening to her CDs, reading her books, in extensive correspondence through email, by personal contact with Patricia’s spiritual/apostolic covering, and extensively with Patricia herself. We wanted to leave no stones unturned as we matured in our understanding of the situation and as we reached our conclusions.
We do not feel that it is necessary at this point to list in detail the differences that have surfaced. It is sufficient to mention that theologically we have serious concerns with some aspects of Patricia’s doctrine of the dead. In terms of ministry style we cannot accept at face value some of the physical manifestations typical of her meetings as emanating from the Holy Spirit. We feel that a disproportionate number of those who sit under her ministry are in danger of subjecting themselves to a spirit of error.
In light of our findings, we regretfully find it necessary to state that at present we will not be able to endorse Patricia King’s ministry until such a time that she chooses to make appropriate corrections. We want to make it clear that we are not opposing Patricia King as a person, as a servant of God, or as a gifted leader. We have been and will continue to pray that God will work out this unpleasant situation for His glory and for fulfilling every bit of the destiny that He has in mind for Patricia.
C. Peter Wagner, Colorado Springs
Doris M. Wagner, Colorado Springs
Cindy Jacobs, Red Oak TX
Mel Mullen, Red Deer AB, Canada
Dutch Sheets, Colorado Springs
Bill Hamon, Santa Rosa Beach FL
Bob Beckett, Hemet CA
April 27th, 2008 @ 12:53 am
Folks,
I’m going to tread very carefully in my response here since I have not been to the meetings in Lakeland and I do not know Todd or his ministry personally. At some point in the future, I might have more to say, but for now, I would simply reiterate the guidelines that I discussed on the show today.
That being said, I very much appreciate the probing questions that are being asked here, and by no means do I want to skirt the issues being raised. It is simply the better part of wisdom for me to say, “No comment” at this point.
So, here are my guidelines for evaluating a spiritual movement, very similar to the guidelines established by Jonathan Edwards:
1) Is it exalting Jesus? Does He have the preeminence and are people being drawn to Him and His centrality?
2) Is there an increasing hunger for the Word of God and an increasing desire to submit to the Word of God?
3) Are people repenting of sin and turning to holiness by God’s grace and power?
4) Is there an increasing burden to touch and save the lost?
If so, then God is at work, since Satan can’t cast out Satan and the flesh can’t give birth to Spirit. Of course, if rank heresy is being preached and the fundamentals of the faith are being denied, then we don’t need to ask these questions, but when the gospel is going forth and yet unusual things seem to be taking place, these guidelines are very helpful, especially if used over a period of time.
I hope this helps!
April 27th, 2008 @ 12:56 am
I was watching the meeting tonight, and Todd received this email from Rick Joyner of Morning Star Ministries.
Todd speaking:
“Let me read this to you. From a dear friend of mine, Rick Joyner, Morning Star Ministries. Rick Joyner sent me this letter today Roy. ‘We rejoice in the great things God continues to do there. One of the true signs of authentic revival is it is contagious. A couple of our high school seniors visited your place last week. And when they came back they shared about it in the Bible class at school. Something like a whirlwind came into the room and the kids were all over the floor repenting and experiencing genuine deliverance. The others heard the noise and came running along with just about the whole Morning Star staff and ministry school. Parents who came to pick up their kids got caught up in it and at midnight there were still hundreds there. The next night there were twice as many. And last night twice as many again. Our whole building was packed. Note worthy miracles are taking place and people are being radically changed.’ “
April 27th, 2008 @ 12:58 am
One further note: Regarding the Patricia King statement, look at how much time and effort these leaders put into their decision, examining the issue from all sides and meeting directly with her for clarification and dialogue, rather than relying on second-hand reports. It would be wise if all of us proceeded in similar fashion when approaching such areas of controversy, and when asked for our opinion about the latest teaching or move or spiritual fad, it is often best to say, “I have no opinion at the moment.” As the first caller on the show suggested today, it’s best to give ourselves to prayer before we speak, a lesson that I’ve sometimes learned the hard way.
April 27th, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
Sorry about the repost, but I didn’t realize that the whole post from the FIRE alumni site did not come across in my email. This is the FIRE grad’s entire post. If the moderator would like to delete the previous post that is OK.
_____________________
Hey Folkies,
I drove down this last Friday to the revival and I just got back today.
WOW! I LOVED IT!
A bunch of people got saved every night. I mean some were RUNNING down to the altar, even running while pulling the arm of a friend down to the front. There were incredible, incredible miracles. The worship, particularly Sat. nite, was off the chain. In fact, it didn’t stop when the guy came up with the microphone. People just kept up this defeaning roar of praise even with no music.
On Sat. nite, Sid Roth, Rory Alec of God TV and Lindell Cooley were there. Before Lindell left he told Roy, the worship leader that this was a move of God. Kilpatrick and Steve Hill have expressed support and told Todd to keep going and will be visiting the revival soon. On friday night, Che Ahn (the leader of the apostolic network that FIRE belongs to (as far as I know) attended earlier in the week and was touched by what God was doing.
Todd read a letter from Rick Joyner detailing how two teenage boys from Morningstar’s Christian school came to the revival. They told their Bible class about what happened and the power of God fell and people began repenting. The other classes heard the commotion and came in then they started repenting. People were still until 12 at night and kept coming back for more with larger crowds every night. Rick Joyner stated that one mark of a true revival is that it is transferable.
Todd definitely did mention healing angels and prophetic encounters… but Jesus was the center. Glory was being given to Jesus not angels.
I can definitely attest to the presence of God in that place. On Fri and Sat nite. the crowd was around 3,500…3,000 in the sanctuary and 500 in the overflow building…and there still were tons of people outside who couldn’t get in. This was the church building they rented from a church and they outgrew it in two nites. Beginning Monday nite, they will have the 8,000 seat Lakeland Convention Center.
Todd has moved his entire family down to a townhouse in the area and are even having their dog sent down. He has cancelled other meetings and is basically shutting down his ministry operations in some ways in Canada to focus on Florida. He announced that He will stay in Lakeland indefinitely as long as God keeps showing up. That is a very large step for a ministry as large as Todd’s to do… uprooting his family to live in a townhome for meetings that he doesn’t have any idea how long it will last.
GOD TV has also totally rearranged their schedule and have donated FOUR HOURS of airtime A DAY for many days now to cover the revival live… and will continue at least through next Sunday. Rory talked about how that was a huge undertaking for them and expensive for them, so they are believing God for the finances to cover it. The point is that for them to go out on a limb (especially financially) for something shallow and fluffy is not likely…Yet, they keep on getting tons and tons of incredible reports of people being instantly healed all over the world as a result of watching the God TV live coverage of the revival.
This is the first time in history that a revival can be broadcast live around the world via tv and webcasting with millions watching.
Regardless about what people feel about Todd or whoever… one thing I know, God is behind this one.
April 27th, 2008 @ 11:58 pm
I heard Todd say “lord release the healing angels” and them working in us. I have also heard him say he has or had daily communication with some angel. Is this biblical? This creeps me out. I respect your opinion and was prayerfully wondering if you can address Todd’s doctrine on angels.
April 28th, 2008 @ 12:45 am
I love revival and the move of God. It is nice to see other televangelist endorsing this move. I just have a problem with doctrine. If doctrine is wrong, should we be endorsing this revivalist? Check this 8 minute video out about an evangelist in the 70′s who in the end claimed he was never saved, and learned how to work the crowd. The evangelist made a documentary following his last tent crusade exposing his true lifestyle. The youtube video is just a snippet of it. Now with this video I am not saying the Florida Revivalist is unsaved, what I am saying is that people come expecting God to move, and he does. The crowds have faith. My question us should we still support someone who has false doctrine?
YouTube link:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KxfThlCcfHI
I stumbled across this a few months ago, and was blown away. In this day we must gurd are bodies with the whole armor of God.
April 28th, 2008 @ 1:17 am
Wow Byron, that’s quite the video. Think about being one of those people “filled with the Spirit” in that evangelist’s meetings? Finding out the truth would crush most people’s faith. Surely discerning the authentic vs. the inauthentic is not optional, it is essential to the growth of the Body of Christ. This is not a game, people’s spiritual lives are at stake here.
That being said, we cannot let videos like this stop us from believing for the authentic power of the Spirit. This is also not a game, spiritual lives are also at stake with regard to releasing the REAL power of the Spirit and bringing people to faith in the authentic Jesus of the Bible.
April 28th, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
Here’s a link to a very well-written article I read this morning. I especially liked the obvious compassion and insightfulness of this person’s writings.
http://www.supernaturalblogger.com/2008/04/healing-revival-history-and-lakeland.html
April 28th, 2008 @ 7:56 pm
Great link Lisa, I liked how humbly the writer submitted his belief, and opened himself up to correction.
A question I’ve been thinking about: If someone has reason for being cautious with regard to a revival, should they just not worry about it and risk “missing God”? Should they “proceed with caution” into the revival? Or should they keep on investigating until they have a “peace” about either attending or not attending?
April 28th, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
Marcus,
I think if there are many reports of God moving powerfully, it’s a good idea to take this seriously before the Lord, since we don’t want to take His outpourings lightly. Our attitude should be, “Father, I don’t want to miss something You’re doing, and if You have something for me, I want to receive it!” Then, we trust Him to direct our steps and shape our desires. At the same time, our attitude should also be, “Lord, I want that which comes from You, so protect me from pursuing things You have not birthed.” I think that’s a healthy attitude to cultivate.
We should also remember that even where God is moving powefully, that does not mean that He is endorsing all the methods being used or all the messages being preached. Those things should still be evaluated by the Word, even in the midst of revival.
April 28th, 2008 @ 9:28 pm
I sincerely pray that those who God has granted a platform of leadership in the Body of Christ today, would spend some serious time in prayer and research of the teachings of this man before endorsing him. I am concerned that Charisma and God TV may have fanned this flame without looking into doctrinal issues. Just the other day, the Lord reminded me that I had, in a sense, endorsed his ministry without knowing anything about his teachings…I had his ministry as a “friend” on my myspace page.
In just the one week that I’ve googled his name, I had sincerely hoped that to find sound doctrine, but by far, that has not been the case. I sincerely hope and pray that someone will be able to speak into his life so that baby Christians who listen to him will not be taught things that simply fail to line up with scripture.
Aside from the “healing angels”entering people, here are some other things that he has written in his teachings that are odd, to say the least. (And if he has seriously met with someone or some spirit during all these times that he talks about on his website and in his writings, wow…that brings up a whole ‘nother matter altogether.)
1) In one of his teachings posted on his website, he talks about a meeting he had with the Apostle Paul in Heaven where Paul (according to TB) tells TB that Abraham helped him write the book of Hebrews.
2) In another “vision” he says he was on an operating table and angels were operating on him and it was revealed to him that God was going to start supernaturally anointing people with character.
3) Just look at his teachings on his website or google his name, there is way too much out there for me to list it all here, and just the things that can be confirmed by his own videos and his own writings are enough to not want him to touch me “with a ten foot pole”, as they say down south.
Please understand, I hope and pray that he will embrace sound doctrine and be mightily used by God…but right now, I’m just concerned about the little sheep. With some of his teaching, especially the angels, and angels entering people, baby Christians, who only know what he has said, could easily walk into a New Age meeting and be even more deceived. I’m just hoping and praying that someone will speak to him and help him out of the error that has tried to creep into his ministry.
April 28th, 2008 @ 11:05 pm
I guess the ultimate question is do we need anything “more” then what we have been given in the word & the fellowship of our local congregation?
April 29th, 2008 @ 10:17 am
It’s so interesting to me to see all these people who feel it is their “calling”
to warn other people. Usually no one is persuaded by the “warnings” of all these people out there unless they are in a position of authority in someone’s life or have a relationship with that person… otherwise people are adults and will make their own decisions and go by what they personally feel the Holy Spirit is saying to them. There were so many people who “warned” about Brownsville and Toronto and still 100,000s of people still went and did what they felt they should do.
People can say or “warn” what they want, but should just realize is that generally most people are either already decidedly against or decidely for something and the few people on the fence will probably go to someone they trust or have a personal relationship with to make their decision, not someone’s opinion they don’t even know.
April 29th, 2008 @ 10:22 am
Oh and when I said “all these people” I am referring to a general trend I have been seeing over the years with people warning against various ministries and also seeing many places on the internet recently this trend is continuing particularly about the Florida outpouring.
April 29th, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
Well, I guess I won’t be watching Todd Bentley anymore, since I don’t know him personally, and he is not in a position of authority in my life.
When do we have enough “authority” to speak over the internet? When we get saved? When we graduate from Bible School? When we get ordained? Or are you trying to say that because someone doesn’t have a big ministry, they don’t have a right to say anything?
I haven’t read of any of “these people” stating that they feel it is their “calling” to “warn” anybody. It is just people posting their opinions, asking questions, and stating what they feel God is speaking to them personally about this. Frankly, I think this is a very healthy thing for the Body of Christ to do. This is the way that some people form their decisions, too.
While I agree that everyone ulimately has to make their own decision, I think that people are, in fact, very strongly influenced by the thoughts, opinions, and ideas of many people they don’t know, and who are not in a position of authority over their lives. If this were not true, then why do we have media such as newspapers, websites, books, and even GodTV? In addition, why are you posting on this thread, if you feel that you cannot influence people you don’t know, or who you are not in a position of authority over?
By the way, we hope you do keep posting, because “iron sharpens iron”, and it causes us to keep seeking the Lord and searching the Scriptures.
April 29th, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
One huge concern of mine, as a former youth pastor, is that in the business of ministry (and I know that it can get so busy, all you want to do at the end of the day is go home and rest), how many of the ministers who are endorsing Todd Bentley’s ministry have actually taken the time out of their hugely busy schedules to look at his actual teachings and the issues that many, many Christians are voicing their concerns about? And how many of these ministers are simply making endorsements based on what other ministers are saying (or not saying).
Wow…I just don’t know what else to say right now except that I pray God’s kingdom would come and His will will be done in this situation.
April 30th, 2008 @ 3:35 pm
Perhaps Brownsville and Toronto would have been wise to heed some of the warnings.
Certainly God uses imperfect vessles. I am the first to admit this! But we should always be willing to listen to critisism from fellow believers.
Prov 12:1
April 30th, 2008 @ 5:44 pm
Phil,
Which warnings do you have in mind? I was in the thick of Brownsville for four full years and participated in hundreds and hundreds of services, plus taught hundreds of day sessions — so I definitely had an ideal insider’s perspective! So, I’d be curious to know what you’re thinking about, especially since we were often in the mode of self-criticism and examination, as well as listening with open ears to fellow-leaders and friends.
Through the years, I’ve seen some very negative, destructive criticism in the Body, and some very useful, constructive criticism, and I outline some of the differences in my Revival Answer Book. That makes me all the more curious as to what you had in mind. Let me know!
April 30th, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
I enjoyed reading about your concerns and advice. It’s needed much in the whole body of Christ here in the U.S and oversees too!
I would like to know if someone out there has ever been part of a Perfect Revival or move of God. Is that possible? God uses human vessels and the Scriptures records where Paul corrected Peter. If the Apostle had to work things out, I figure we too should remain humble and teachable working things out that needs to be corrected. I am aware of the evangelist which you mentioned and I have been around his meetings, here in the NW and one time in the MW. Doctrine is very important and that is Why we need to pray for Him and others like him, whether they are a local small or mega church that is not praying or teaching sound doctrine. Bon Hoffer mentions two types of errors, Moral and Doctrinal, one of them is more damaging then the other, but both are Unholy in sight of Yahweh and His Messiah.
I want to thank Dr Brown for his Biblical insight which helped me understand better Revival and Scriptures especially his books on this subject. Let us continue to pray for Revival and ask the Lord to Reveal Sins, Dead works, and False teachings in the body of Christ every where!
Shalom
May 1st, 2008 @ 12:24 am
I don’t think the terminally sick and the deaf who got healed in the service tonight care much about finding fault with Todd Bentley’s doctrine. God’s moving!! It’s amazing to watch!
Personally, I have been watching the meetings for several days now and have not found serious fault with anything that is going on in the meetings in Lakeland. Nothing that wasn’t also a matter of “concern” to me at the Brownsville Revival. As a matter of fact, I absolutely love that God once again uses someone who is absolutely down to earth and genuine about their love for God. After all, Todd Bentley is ushering people into the kingdom of God and not on a path straight to hell!
I appreciate genuine concern, but I don’t think it should hinder us from receiving from God and rejoicing whole-heartedly about what HE is doing.
But, that is just my opinion, so don’t stone me now.
May 1st, 2008 @ 11:52 am
Dr Brown,
Let me preface my post by stating that I firmly believe God moved at Brownsville. I believe those in leadership were more mature in the faith then I am even now. God certainly used the individual in leadership and the assembly of the bretheren as a whole to bring about salvation for many.
So with that, understand my purpose in originally posting was a responce to the comments giving on critisism and warning. And since you fairly asked me to explain… I will, but in humility, not as one denouncing a false work… but rather exhorting genuine believers to correct certain problems.
I do believe the critisism applies to Brownsville, but also to charismatic circles in general.
Specific issues of concern:
1) This first point is less specific to Brownsville.
Emphasis on manifistations and miricles. (I know you personally teach the opposite… but other leaders would put manifistations on display.) From scripture we know that signs and wonders are not exclusive to believers. False prophets have a wow-effect also. So to use signs as an authenticator is extreemly dangerous.
2) A call to holiness that goes beyond the call to holiness found in scripture. Specifically in the case of alcohol, but also a general call to legalism. As if salvation is won or lost by our behavior. Our works certainlly damn us, but Jesus’ sacrifice certainly saves us. (Once again… this is not in reference to you specifically, I very much agree on a genuine call to a holy lifestyle and love the book you wrote on the topic).
3) Lack of emphasis on the sustaining grace of God. Many I know personally had a very self-condemning mindset as a result. Note: I am not placing blame on Brownsville or Steve Hill. I know the song “mercy seat” was a theme of the revival, but statements such as, “Unless Jesus isn’t the first though on your mind when you wake us, you are backsliden” are simply not biblical.
These are my personal thoughts… I have not really discussed these issues with anyone (being that the revival is in the past and hind site is 20-20). This is my humble critisism of a work I consider genuine, not to be mistaken as me denouncing of a false move.
May 1st, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
Phil,
Great points, stated wtih humility, as intended.
On the one hand, being in the Bible belt, so many people were used to a habitual Christianity that I really understood Steve Hill’s need to awaken people to their true spiritual condition — which was often backslidden or unsaved — and he needed to speak in really clear terms to them. And the results were dramatic and often long-lasting!
On the other hand, we definitely saw the need within our ministry school to introduce whole classes on the Father’s love, etc., because we knew that people could not have a steady diet of this radical, wake-up call. So, what was powerful in the context of coming to a few day’s meetings and being transformed had to be balanced in terms of daily, long-term spiritual diet, which, of course, must be the role of the local churches.
Of course, we could interact much more on these points, which time doesn’t permit, but I always look at every outpouring of the Spirit with holy jealousy for lasting fruit, and I think we’re very much in harmony on that.
May 1st, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
I have not been to the Lakeland meetings, but had the chance to watch some of the meetings on God TV. I’ve seen some awesome things and some questionable things. However, from personal experience and the Lord dealing with me about having a judgmental spirit, let me share these few things…
I remembered hearing many negative things about the Brownsville Revival in the past. The reports I heard were that is was fleshly, emotional, and some even saying demonic. All that was attributed to it was that people barked, laughed and shook. I began to believe the reports, even after listening to clips on tape and watching scenes shown by “discernment” ministries.
However, I met some people who attended these meetings in Brownsville. The Lord greatly humbled me in hearing their stories. I heard of people who wanted to give up on ministry, and the Lord touched them and revived their heart. I heard of people giving their lives to the mission field. I heard of lukewarm teens wanting to be sold out for Jesus. So through this experience I came to realize how easy it is to pass judgment on things without fully knowing and seeking the heart of God and hearing other believers about it.
With all that said, in regards to the Lakeland meetings, I pray this is a move of God. I hope it is an outpouring. And our heart’s cry needs to be more desirous of wanting an outpouring rather than being critical when something becomes well-known and even has questionable things. What’s important is that Jesus Christ is being lifted up, and that His name is being honored.
I forget who said it, but I read of a preacher in the 1700 or 1800s that said something like “give me a revival, even if it’s messy and wild, just give me a revival”
May 1st, 2008 @ 4:48 pm
I posted on my heart’s cry for revival at my blog and received a negative comment from a man who claims to be aware of Todd Bentley and his ministry. I am not. He claims that Bentley is a follower of Benny Hinn, often speaks of traveling to the third heaven (2 Cor. 12) and as he passes through the second heaven he often overhears Satan and his demonic forces and gets insights into their schemes. Further, this man claims that Bentley is all about the money and even charges $5 for a CD with nothing but pictures of lights around Bentley that he claims are angels.
I have not researched this myself. Having read Dr. Brown’s book during the Brownsville revival, I try to hold judgement until I see fruit. Holding to Acts 5, if this is a move of God then it will stand the test of time however if Bentley is a false prophet and is misleading people then I believe God will expose him. Either way, I still burn for revival and pray for God to pour out His Spirit in Lakeland and abroad.
May 1st, 2008 @ 5:00 pm
Ok, I would like to say a few things…
1.) Yes, it is common knowledge that the devil and his workers have certain abilites to do signs and wonders, but I have a hard time to believe that someone who professes Jesus as Lord and Savior and who prays for people in the Name of Jesus is not of God when Jesus Himself addressing this very issue said, “If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? … But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.” (Matthew 12)
2.) When I look at Matthew 12: 23-26 I think it is obvious that miracles have a tendency to draw attention and attract opposition and persecution. I even dare to say that Jesus purposefully drew attention to miracles when I look at Luke 13: 10-17 (“When Jesus called Her forward…”). Jesus didn’t hide the fact that he was healing the sick, but rather did it publicly. He did what He saw His Father doing and glorified HIM by doing it. Therefore, I don’t have a problem with a minister drawing attention to miracles as well.
3.) In the Acts of the Apostles (reading Acts 3 and 5) and throughout the Scriptures miracles got people’s attention and I believe that they are meant to get people’s attention in order to draw them into the kingdom of God. I see that happening in Lakeland!
Yes, we should definitely look at the whole package and not just at the miracles, but once again I’d like to say that I have not found serious fault with what is going on in Lakeland.
Also, as long as there will be people involved in a move of God you will find imperfection. As to the Brownsville Revival, the leaders have my respect because they dared to undertake nurturing it to the best of their ability. Were there mistakes made? Yes! But, that should not stop us from hungering for a move of God again and for embracing another wave of revival.
After all, we are all a bunch of kids (sons and daughters) learning about the things of God. We should support leaders who step out in faith and try to manifest the kingdom of God. I see a tendency in people to expect christians and leaders to be perfect and 100% hit the target. Personally, I keep telling myself not to have those kind of unrealistic expectations that cannot be met, although I wish it was possible.
May 1st, 2008 @ 7:07 pm
You don’t have to be perfect, but when new age witchcraft doctrines are being mixed into the belief system then there is a problem. People come believeing for a miracle, and God heals them. I posted a link to a video of a Evangelist from the 70′s who admitted that he wasn’t saved during the years he ministered. Yet, there are documented healings at his crusades. So was the unsaved evangelist healing them, or was it GOD? The doctrines that are being questioned here are not about whether you believe in the pre or post trib rapture, or have gifts dissapeared with the apostles. It is the unbiblical belief system that is being preached. These little baby christians are taking these teachings home, and making it their own. I live in the same town that Todd Bentley’s Ministry is based out of, and I have been attending his meetings from when he first started 10 years ago. Todd has many other teachings that he has not revealed to the TV audience yet that are scripturally wrong. I just pray that people do what PAUL advised us to do, test what we have heard by the scriptures. My question is again, where do we draw the Line? Will we accept a healing revival in the Mormon Chuirch? Or the Homosexual Church? I am excited people are being healed, but that should not stop us from questioning doctirne?
May 1st, 2008 @ 8:01 pm
I just learned that my broadcast from last Saturday was not properly recorded at the radio station, so we will not be able to archive it here. But I’m pleased to see the discussion taking place and the issues that are being raised.
For those subscribing to the podcast, we will send something relevant from a past, revival-related message, if possible.
May 1st, 2008 @ 9:07 pm
I agree with what has been about looking for lasting fruit; I am hopeful that it is legitimate, but iffy. For me, I got to know that repentance is being preached, and that lives are evidently and obviously changed.
Could it be possible that God would use an imperfect man, with imperfect doctrine whose heart is perfect before Him?? There might be some areas needing correction, but I was thinking when seeing the guy that it would be just like God to use someone who has an eyebrow and bottom lip pierced, i can just hear our religiosity screaming out in protest, “But God, you can’t use him.” Look, after having seen some Assembly of God churches (conservative and controlled) it is hard for me to understand God having moved at Brownsville, but He did, and maybe it delighted Him to do it there, or in Lakeland, because there is that element in us that says He is not supposed to do it that way.
So, if Lakeland is for real, God, do it in my community too. If it is not legit, God do the legitimate thing in my community. Either way we ought to be jealous for God to move and be glorified and demonstrate His power.
May 1st, 2008 @ 9:42 pm
Just posted the “FIRE” message from Dr. Brown.
Marcus French
Line of Fire Moderator
May 1st, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
Oh, pooh…I only heard the last 5 minutes of the program…is there, perhaps, a transcript?
May 1st, 2008 @ 10:54 pm
Well said Joshua! Let’s let the revival at least provoke us to cry out for revival in our own communities.
May 1st, 2008 @ 11:55 pm
Lisa,
I hope to compile and post some of my notes from the show, and I’m also going to post an article I wrote about 14 years ago that is relevant in some ways again.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 3:36 am
I watched the program tonight and was wowed at what was said and what was not said. First it was said that the angel called “Winds of Change” has the ability to be present with several different believers at once (i.e. it’s omnipresent), and it heals people. Doesn’t this border close to blasphemy, in that he is attributing divine qualities to an angel, and attributing the work of the Holy Spirit (i.e. healing) to this angel?
There are also many prophetic statements that we should take note of and for which he should be held accountable.
I watched for over two hours and did not hear mentioned even once the name of Jesus, Father God, or the Holy Spirit. It was all just talk about angels, angels, angels.
It amazes me all the mainstream leaders who are embracing him, and not holding him accountable to sound teachings. This blows my mind.
I heard a message by Robert Gladstone where God told him the next revival is going to be a teaching revival. I think this is exactly what we need to strengthen the Body of Christ, especially at a time like this where many seem so quick to throw sound biblical teaching out the window. Not to mention so many other problems stemming from poor doctrine – bondages, condemnation, abuse of grace, works mentality, divorce, embracing homosexuality in the church, etc., etc., etc. We need people to stand up and teach the truth, so saturated with the anointing of God it frees people up. If we don’t have true teaching, where are we heading next?
A revival can be messy – miracles, signs and wonders that are out of our comfort zone – but NOT false teachings. If it doesn’t line up with the Word of God, is it even of God at all?? The Word and the miracles need to go hand-in-hand, as they did in Jesus’s ministry, Paul’s ministry, Moses’ ministry, etc.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 9:09 am
One thing is for sure… in my opinion, there is no way that satan himself is healing and touching all these people in Lakeland. Now, if God can overlook “insufficient doctrine” and still use Todd in such amazing ways and give His stamp of approval why can’t we embrace it too??
Why throw the baby out with the bath water? Just because it doesn’t line up with what we think it should be doesn’t mean God isn’t in it.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 9:14 am
One other point folks, it is not simply preaching “Jesus” that qualifies.
It is preaching “Christ and him crusified”. As Joshua said, repentance must be a focus. After all, that is our ultimate calling, to make disciples.
One could argue that mormons preach a so called Jesus. But it must be the Jesus that is preached in scripture. We MUST not make assumptions or judgements of the intentions of others. YET, we MUST judge the words and deeds.
When a believer judges properly, he is simply accepting the judgement already given by God. This is not an act of arogance, but an act of humility.
That being said, let us also be slow to speak and quick to listen. Do not be hasty to verbally commit to supporting or opposing anything. Be careful not to fall into a critical spirit & also be careful not to fall into an over embracing spirit.
If God rejects it, we should not embrace it. If God is in something, we should not reject it.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 9:45 am
Great questions Bianka!
As I said, I have no opinions on Lakeland. But as a general principle, God can move and heal people with faith (genuine believers in the congregation), even if they are at a meeting where false doctrine is being preached. This is not an authenticator. The message of the cross is the only authenticator.
Deuteronomy 13
Matthew 24:24
2 Peter 2:3
Jude
^^^I am not applying those verses to Lakeland (because I don’t know much about them). I am applying them to false teachers / prophets who perform signs and wonders & tell you “made up stories”… and even these men can be in the company of & authority over true believers.
If Todd is in fact claiming that angels heal & claiming angels are omnipotent…. he has lost connection with Jesus.
Colossians 2:18-19
May 2nd, 2008 @ 9:50 am
Sorry for the many postings!!!
Last point for now.
God can heal & the receipients still worship a false God.
Numbers 21:6-9
2 Kings 18:4
May 2nd, 2008 @ 12:26 pm
Just so people know… I’m pretty sure if you asked Todd “Do you believe angels are omiscient?”, he would say no… He never made that statement. That’s how rumors start. People need to be careful about putting words in people’s mouths… Just because someone says “B” doesn’t mean that they meant it to be taken as “Z”.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
Joshua,
You watched two hours… I watch the services almost everyday. I hear A LOT of mention of Jesus, Holy Spirit, God, etc. In fact, just last night Todd kept talking about how Jesus was in the arena and was touching people and healing them. He even asked the crowd to begin to focus on Jesus and how important worship of God was. Then at the end last night, he said that he wasn’t going to pray for everyone that night because God just asked Todd if He could anoint His people with favor Himself. Then Todd again asked the people to worship.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:05 pm
Asha, would you think the folks mentioned in Colossians 2:18-19 denied the deity of Jesus?
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:50 pm
No…I just don’t see what that verse has to do with Todd Bentley. As far as I know, I have not heard Todd say (and I have listened to a lot of his messages since I subscribe to his podcast)…
1. Glory in self-abasement
2. worship angels… I have heard a lot about worshipping Jesus
3. says his visions are above scripture
4. Doesn’t believe in the headship of Jesus over his life and the church
In fact, the context of this passage is more about Judaizers and the Circumcision looking at Col. 2:16 & 17
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day–
17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Obviously this isn’t talking about people who allow their visions to bring people into legalistic bondage instead of faith in Jesus Christ.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
As far as the last sentence I meant it to say…
Obviously this IS talking about people who allow their visions to bring people into legalistic bondage instead of faith in Jesus Christ.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:52 pm
But Asha, you are forgetting to mention what Todd was talking about half an hour before he went off the air regarding “The wind of change” angel that travels with everyone.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:53 pm
Sorry for the multiple posts… To answer your question it is definitely possible that they did deny the deity of Jesus, but the verse does not clear make that point.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 1:59 pm
Byron,
Why don’t you ask Todd exactly what he meant by that… and since I did not hear that statement I can’t speak on what I didn’t hear anyway. I really don’t care what his beliefs about angels as long as he doesn’t worship them.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 2:28 pm
New Age witchcraft?? Worshipping angels?? Where do you guys get that from? What??
I see far more danger in attributing something that God is doing to the work of satan than watching Todd Bentley mentioning angels and visions.
I actually don’t see grave danger in mentioning angels and visions. I myself would like to see angels and have vision, but it won’t ever compare to what Jesus means to me and I think it’s the same at Lakeland.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 2:55 pm
I’d be interested in hearing what people’s opinions are to this question: With what you’ve seen of the Lakeland Revival, does it conform to the following guidelines laid out by Dr. Brown?
1) Is it exalting Jesus? Does He have the preeminence and are people being drawn to Him and His centrality?
2) Is there an increasing hunger for the Word of God and an increasing desire to submit to the Word of God?
3) Are people repenting of sin and turning to holiness by God’s grace and power?
4) Is there an increasing burden to touch and save the lost?
May 2nd, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
I would like to know Dr. Brown’s thoughts on Todd Bentley naming various angels. I saw at one revival site on the Lakeland movement that Bentley had an angel of Grace that he said was going to visit them. I do know that Scripture gives names to some angels such as Gabriel or Michael and of Lucifer but where does Bentley get the names of the angels he says are visiting them?
May 2nd, 2008 @ 4:22 pm
This is from Fresh Fire’s (Todd Bentley’s) website:
Statement of Faith We believe there is one living and true God who has revealed Himself in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, infinitely perfect and eternal in existence and equal in glory, majesty and power (Matt 28:19; Luke 3:21 -22)
We Believe in…
1. THE WORD OF GOD
We believe the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is fully inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error, unified in their redemptive purpose, yielding a complete revelation of God’s will for the salvation of mankind. We hold the Bible to be trustworthy, the only supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct. Scripture is our source of revelation of God, the knowledge of salvation, the origin of all things and of the hereafter-it is the final Court of Appeal on all points of doctrine, life and godliness. (2 Tim 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Hebrews 4:12)
2. THE PERSON OF GOD
We believe there is one living and true God who has revealed Himself in three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, infinitely perfect and eternal in existence and equal in glory, majesty and power (Matt 28:19; Luke 3:21 -22):
a) God the Father is the Creator of all things and the Author of eternal redemption. (Matt 6:9)
b) The Lord Jesus Christ was manifest in the flesh as the very Son of God-fully God and fully man, Creator of all things with the Father, and the appointed Judge of all men (John 1:14 ,18; Col 1:13-20; Acts 17:31; Heb 1:1-4).
Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, died on the Cross for our sins, was buried, resurrected bodily on the third day according to the Scriptures and appeared to his disciples (1Cor 15:1-8). He ascended to the Father, where He continues His High-Priestly ministry. He will personally and physically return for a glorious Church and execute judgment upon the wicked. (1Thess 4:16 -18)
c) The Holy Spirit is The Comforter, the Promise of The Father (Acts 1:4), the Revealer of Christ and His work on the Cross, the Empowerer and the Distributor of gifts and graces upon the Church.
3. HUMANITY’s FALLEN NATURE AND NEED OF THE SAVIOUR
We believe the human race was originally created by God, in His image, to have dominion over His creation (Gen 1:27 ). However, with The Fall of humanity, sin entered through disobedience and rebellion. Humanity became separated from God and totally incapable of saving itself (Rom 5:12 ). All of mankind needs to turn from sin and trust personally in the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, to receive redemption. (Rom 3:23 )
4. SALVATION ONLY THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST
We believe the power of sin and death was broken when Jesus bore our sin at the Cross and rose again, providing the only way of salvation for the whole person: spirit, soul and body. (Heb 4:12 ; 1Thess 5:23 )
Mankind can only be saved by grace through repentance and faith in Christ’s perfect and sufficient work of the Cross. We receive remission of sins by Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice for us, redemption through faith in His shed blood and regeneration by the Holy Spirit’s power. (John 3:5)
5. EMPOWERMENT OF CHRIST’s PRESENCE
We believe the Lord’s Presence, Peace and Power are manifest in His Body in various ways, which are not, however, to be regarded as a means of salvation. We regard:
a) The Lord’s Supper as a means of fellowship of the spiritual body of Christ, and as a way of partaking of the spiritual benefits bequeathed to New Covenant believers.(1Cor 11:17-34)
b) Water baptism, by immersion, as the obedient response to the Lord’s command (Acts 2:38 ; Matt 28:19-20) and a visible representation of our death, burial and resurrection with Christ.
c) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as a valid and important experience for believers today. The Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost and is present for all believers today, often subsequent to the new birth and evidenced by speaking with other tongues (Acts 2:1-4;10:44-46; 19:1-6) and empowerment to witness (Acts 1:8). This baptism is also accompanied by grace gifts and fruit of the Spirit (Rom 5:5, 1 Cor 12:5-11; Gal 5:22 -23).
6. THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH
We believe the Church is the Body of Christ ( 1 Cor 12:12 -14; Eph 1:22 -23) , His Bride (Eph 5:25 ) and Temple of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 3:16 ), the expression of the present rule and reign of Christ’s Kingdom of God on earth. Christians are members of the universal, mystical, body by faith-they are a holy priesthood of believers. Believers need to live out their commitment to Christ in love, unity and community with other body members in the local church-this is the practical expression of Christian faith in action. Christ gifted His Church with unity and a five-fold ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers for maturing, ordering, equipping, and releasing the whole body to do the works of service that reveal His glory. (Eph 4:11-16)
7. DIVINE HEALING
We believe divine healing is within Christ’s work of atonement (1 Pet 2:24 ) and great gift of salvation. Healing, communicated by God’s grace, gifts, laying on of hands, anointing with oil, and simple faith alone, minister healing for the whole person (emotional, mental, physical) and deliverance from oppression by the devil (Acts 10:38; Mk 16:17-18;
Jas 5:14-16). The gospel is not only in word, but in power and “these signs will follow those who believe.”
8. THE LAYING ON OF HANDS
We believe that the laying on of hands, as practiced in the New Testament, is an operation of the ministry of the Holy Spirit for:
- healing the sick
- baptism of the Holy Spirit
- receiving spiritual gifts
- dedicating children
- ordaining ministries
- and sending out ministries (Acts 13:3)
9. THE CHRIST-LIKE ABUNDANT LIFE
We believe all Christians are called into a life of separation from sinful practices and they should take every opportunity to promote righteousness and godliness (James 4:4; Romans 12:1-2, 13:1-10; 2Cor 6:14 -18; 1 John 2:15 -17). Holiness is the release of Christ within each and every believer, changing us into His image, from glory to glory. (2Cor 3:18 )
10. EVANGELISM
We believe the mandate and privilege of every Christian is to spread the Gospel to the lost world by making disciples of all nations, baptizing and teaching them to obey everything He commands (Matt 28:18-20). This lifestyle of evangelism is accomplished through prayer, living out our faith, preaching the Word and sacrificial giving. (Acts 1:8; Luke 10:2; Matt 10:7-8; 1Cor 9:19 -23)
11. THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
We believe the Ascension and Exaltation of the Lord Jesus Christ to the throne of the Father proclaims His present rule and reign over the universe. His Kingdom is revealed here on earth through His Body, the Church, resulting in a glorious Church and global harvest at the end of this age. He will be finally revealed through His personal, physical, and soon return and the events described in the following scriptures, including the resurrection of the dead (the just to everlasting life and unjust to eternal separation from God (Acts 1:11 ; 1Thess 4:16 -17; Titus 2:12 -14; 2Thess 1:7-10).
12. FURTHER REVELATION
We recognize that God is continually restoring truth and light to His Church. Therefore, we place no limit on further revelation; however, each must be substantiated according to the Scriptures.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
The above seems pretty good to me IMHO…
May 2nd, 2008 @ 4:40 pm
Doesn’t sound like a Mormon Statement of Faith to me.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
Nothing wrong with that.
Yet, healing is still attributed to angels. Is this not a point of concern for you?
“Jehovah-Rophe” the God who heals.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
Hey folks,
I’m going to weigh in here for a moment, since this is my website.
It appears to me that people are getting emotional over things and starting to argue — which is NOT the purpose of this blog. Can’t we honor each other in the Lord with respect instead of each side thinking the other side is crazy?
The stakes certainly are high at a time like this. One side is jealous not to malign or reject what they see as a supernatural working of the Holy Spirit. How dare we reject what God Himself is backing!
The other side is jealous for the truth of the gospel and the purity of the Word and would not dare embrace something which is counterfeit. How dishonoring that would be to Jesus!
From my vantage point, people on both sides of this issue are both hungry for God and hungry for truth, and I’m urging each of you to step back, pray for one another, bless one another, and pray for God’s highest and best to come out of Lakeland. Let’s step higher, OK? And if you really feel you have been dramatically touched by the Lord through the meetings there, let it be demonstrated in a godly attitude towards those who have legitimate questions.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
This is deJa Vu for me. Let me explain what happened with me in hope of encouraging some of you who are weighting Lakeland. I remember when I first heard about the Toronto and the Brownsville Revivals. The source was from a Radio Teacher, which my friend and Colleague listened to and highly admired. All I heard is the negative things which He did not agree with or understand comparing it to his theology. That really effected me negatively until I began to Pray and seek the Lord about Revival. The Lord then directed me to go and check out the revival myself. While in Brownsville, I saw in my eyes what is being unfairly focused upon and mis characterized. At one point I was approached by an individual who was attending the revival and clearly he was sick in need of God’s saving power. I watched and listened to the teaching and preaching of the Leadership then and Dr Brown was one of them. Further more I went and I got the books which were written trying to explain the Revival and what the the Lord is saying and doing. In short what I learned is that the above individual and many like him were judging something in their fleshly mind and not according to Holy Spirit. Personally, the Lord touched me and changed my faulty un-biblical theology and gave me a vision and a greater passion to make disciples and reach the Lost. Another thing I must mention here. When I was a Bible school supervisor managing 40 men. One student in particular, an unstable one who needed discipleship, who did not pray, nor was he faithful in his studies, had an unholy relationship with a female student called this Radio Bible Teacher and blasted the Brownsville Revival and the Bible school. The sad thing is the Radio bible teacher did not even bother to ask who is calling him and doing the Judging. That happened when I just got back from my 1st trip to the Brownsville Revival, and having seeing first hand all the great things the Lord did to me and to the hundred of pastors like me. That was a big listen to me, and since that time and till now I have not listened to this Radio bible teacher again. I know he has some good things, but clearly to me he is teaching the bible from his own set of glasses like many others churches. The things I have personally witnessed/seen, and still seeing in terms of Salvation, Healings and people going to the mission field as a result of the Brownsville revival will keep me giving thanks to God’s grace and his servant for the rest of my earthly life.
Like Dr Brown advised, I am going to wait and see! Waiting is Prayer/ intercession for me! We must continue to pray for one another and for a true revival in the church from Sins, Dead works and false teachings.
The Messiah says: My Fathers “Beit”=house is a house of prayer for all nations!!
Thank you and Grace to you all
May 2nd, 2008 @ 9:52 pm
This is a really insightful article from Rick Joyner about what is going on in Lakeland and a prophetic word that he gave. I encourage folks to read it.
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000031549
May 2nd, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
B Square…I think it is wonderful that you didn’t just take “at face value” the negative things people were saying about Brownsville. You took the time to listen to Dr. Brown’s teaching, read books written by the leadership, etc. And by doing so, what you found was sound Biblical theology.
The leadership at Brownsville, from Pastor Kilpatrick to Brother Richard Crisco (youth pastor) to Pastor Vann Lane (children’s pastor)…and of course Dr. Brown and Dick Reuben, etc…were all men of God whose writings attested to the fact that their theological views were based upon the Bible, period.
Sadly, you will find, as you read the writings of Todd Bentley and view some of his meetings, that is not proving to be the case with his ministry, and therein lies the problem. (The extreme and odd mixture of strange teachings, combined with Biblical passages, does not provide the little sheep with pure nourishment from God’s Word.
I wonder…just how much rat poison do you have to sprinkle into someone’s soup for it to be dangerous?)
I recently did a search, in the Strong’s concordance, for healing angels (the ones TB talks about so much in his meetings)…nothing…the only reference of an angel being anywhere near a healing was the one that “stirred the water” at a particular pool and, then, only 1 person was healed when the person got into that water. Now, if I remember correctly from my days in Bible college, a correct study of scripture would tell me that it is never proper to form a doctrine based on one scripture reference. Let’s, say, though for the sake of discussion, that it is just fine to form sound doctrine from one Biblical reference…there is not one place in the Bible where God tells us that angels are supposed to enter people and heal them…(the Bible does say that evil spirits would want to do that and that it can happen especially when one lives an ungodly lifestyle) but no where, ever in the Bible does it state that God’s Holy Angels behave in that manner. Todd Bentley teaches this and says so in his meetings. Sadly that is only the tip of the iceberg.
That teaching alone is enough to give one serious cause for concern and for leadership in the Body of Christ to begin some serious prayer, followed by time spent reading his teachings, viewing past/present videos, measuring his teachings by the Truth of God’s Holy Word and ultimately doing whatever it takes to help Mr Bentley into the Truth.
I do believe God is doing something in Lakeland and I don’t have all of the answers, only God does…but I also believe that God loves Todd Bentley very, very much, so much that He allowed this national attention to come to where he is preaching. So much, that now Todd is moving in other circles than just those of his mentors (Patricia King, Joshua Mills, etc) and hoepfully being around men and women of God who have sound doctrine …so much that people are seeing that something is “off” in his teaching…so much, perhaps that men of God will pray, read Todd’s teachings, watch his videos past and present, weigh the things they read and hear by the Word of God…and help Todd Bentley to walk in the Truth and be the person God created him to be
To be free indeed!!!
Just for the heck of it, I googled “healing angels” about 5 minutes ago…and guess what I found? New Age site, after New Age site, after New Age site…
(Sadly, I have an ex mother-in-law who believes in healing angels too, and she’s an ordained minister…she’s just not a Christian
This is nothing to bury our heads in the sand about…
May 2nd, 2008 @ 11:51 pm
I’m afraid to say anything now!
Marjoe Gortner. Yep, I saw those vids a while back. Creepy. Reminded me of….uh, yeah, it just reminded me.
Well, I told a friend of mine the other day in an email something along these lines:
“God is free to touch who He will, when He will, how He will….even throuhg frayed fringes”. Jesus wasn’t looking at or much less aware of the woman with the issue of blood. In a way, God bypassed Jesus (sorta used Him like a paper clip in a light socket) and just touched that womans faith.
Can people be reaching out to Jesus in these meetings and be found by Him?
Yes.
Does Todd Bentley teach many strange, false and scary doctrines?
Yes.
I think it should be okay to scrutinize our hero’s. I’m just now feeling okay to question Art Katz almighty! LOL….ahhhhh, okay.
It’s okay and healthy to point out every point and particular in which Todd Bentley teaches abberran things. It is right, it is righteous and we have no biblical option otherwise.
Let’s look at the Corinthians. Paul starts off complementing them and says they lack no spiritual gift.
But they had a guy who was sleeping with step mommy, had folks taking each other to court for lawsuits, publicly. Then he berates them for not having enough discernment to deal with those things themselves. Eventually he gets on them about tolerating drunkenness and gluttony over the Lord’s table and even goes so far as to say they are sick and dying for it!!! THIS CHURCH HAD EVERY GIFT!!
Then gives intstuction on how to properly handle and flow in the gifts, shows them that love must guide the operation of these gifts, rebukes them for selfishly shouting out the “shondye” with no interpretation and with several others so that others thought they were insane….
…oh, then he has to deal with them getting duped into believing a heresy about the resurection.
Now according to certain folks here, who’s name’s I’ll not mention, Paul was wrong and shoulda kept quiet without feeling so ‘called’ to straighten them out. But Paul was jealous for what was truly deposited in their midst. And why? BECAUSE THEY STOOD A CHANCE OF LOOSING IT. The things of God are too precious to loose, so the apostolic mindset is to teach and instruct so as to facilitate the Spirit. Teaching and doctrine will never quench the Spirit….well, ‘true’ doctrine, but I digress…
Oh, and the Galatians. Dang, forget about it!
They got sucked into the most perverse of doctrines and bowed down to “The Circumcision” and kept Law, Kosher diet, etc….feasts, special days. Theses things aren’t wrong (Romans 14), but they were made a standard of righteousness and salvation. They believed it and Paul said that they had fallen from grace.
Yet he also asked them, “does God give His Spirit and work miracles among you because you keep law, or because you believe?”
They were in a jacked up heresy, yet they still had the Spirit of power.
Paul, jealous for the purity of the apostolic doctrine of salvation independant of works, rakes them over the coals somethin’ fierce!! He called them fools and practically belittled them….but was he inspired by the Spirit or not? It’s scripture ya’ll.
Paul didn’t want to see genuine Holy Spirit outpouring wasted by false teaching and warned of it many, many times. If it wasn’t a big deal (as some of you are making it to be of no concern), then why do every one of his letters, just about, contain warning against false doctrine? Why worry? If they got the Holy Ghost, let it go!
NO!! You NEVER let it go. You steward the blessing and keep the leaven out. And had these churches heeded his warnings, they would have gone on longer….and maybe they did heed and enjoyed much abounding grace in place of the error.
If you have a rotten tooth, would you keep it just because you have a bunch of pretty white ones?
Uh, no. Tooth decay spreads. Get rid of the filthy thing and be healthy.
So I think we should allow that this Lakeland thing may have something of the Holy Spirit’s workings….though I don’t think that the so-called critics here have said that He is not at work and haven’t even made that an issue. So really, it’s not fair to them, but I digress.
God can and will meet an individual heart set on Him. But indeed, an impressionable christian can get sucked away into futility by chasing some of the nonsense that this man teaches because of the miracles that are seen. This is were Paul would come in and clean house.
Here’s a test: if the man is confronted with his doctrinal errors and does not recant, be sure to avoid what he teaches.
And, you know….there are vessels of healing that aren’t so full of mixture. I’d never eat a brownie that had just a wee bit of dog poo in it, no matter how much Belgian dark chocolate or Guiness it was cooked in. It has poo….poo is gross, mm-kay?
Love you all…
…see you sunday morning, most of you…
mark jr.
May 2nd, 2008 @ 11:53 pm
Oops, I apologize, looks like I repeated myself in the 5th and 6th paragraphs…I must have thought it was important
May 3rd, 2008 @ 11:40 am
I encourage people to check this link out:
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?ID=1000031549
May 3rd, 2008 @ 12:34 pm
I didn’t want to post an opinion unless I had something different to say than all the stuff being said so far.
I couldn’t help but think of something I heard a guest speaker at FIRE Church years back say about reading the complete life teachings of people like John G. Lake and Smith Wigglesworth. Wigglesworth in particular had a LOT of people not liking him when he was alive. He did things in a very unorthodox way, and was very scruffy and ill-mannered in many peoples’ opinions. Yet, God used this ‘simple plummer’ mightily.
I’ve got the big green book of his teachings, and all his teachings are listed chronologically, and I couldn’t help but notice sometimes, towards the beginning of the book, I don’t always agree with what I read in it. In fact, he was uneducated (just like Bentley has had no formal Bible training). We need to give the same grace to people in the present day that they will grow, mature, learn more, distance themselves from false teaching eventually, as we have with the historical giants of the faith we’ve grown to love and admire in hindsight. Stuff some these men said later in their lives was far more Biblical than some of the stuff they taught earlier when it was assumed that the annointing on them automatically validated their teachings.
I think history has proven to be a better judge about if something was from God or not, and I’m taking that attitude about this outpouring (which I believe IS from God).
Blessings, and fire on all your heads.
May 3rd, 2008 @ 12:43 pm
Ok Marcus, everyone seems to have disregarded the question you asked. I’ll give my opinion from what I’ve seen of the meetings.
1) Is it exalting Jesus? Does He have the preeminence and are people being drawn to Him and His centrality?
From what I’ve seen, Jesus is definitely being exalted. He is getting much glory. Yes, angels are mentioned, but Jesus is definitely being exalted above any angel, that’s for sure! (acutally, I haven’t seen an angel being exalted, only mentioned as being in the meetings. I thought that the presence of angels in our meetings was supposed to be normal, but I guess we just can’t talk about them if they are)
2) Is there an increasing hunger for the Word of God and an increasing desire to submit to the Word of God?
Well…the word isn’t really being preached and is rarely mentioned at Todd’s meetings. (but I haven’t seen every meeting) Although, Ignited Church, where the revival meetngs first started, does have meetings each morning at 10:00 AM where the Word is preached regularly. However, there is only a small percentage of the folks from the PM meetings attending, but it is being broadcast on the web.
3) Are people repenting of sin and turning to holiness by God’s grace and power?
There is normally a call, however brief it may be, for those in the meeting to turn from their sin and turn to Jesus. I did hear my first testimony last night of a backslider returning to the Lord as a result of being healed.
4) Is there an increasing burden to touch and save the lost?
From what I can tell, especially at the beginning of the revival, the folks attending the meetings were hitting the streets bringing the gospel and healing to many. Although time for these testimonies has been cut short due to the increased number of people attending the meetings and the healing testimonies that are coming forth.
So, it looks like the lack of the Word being preached at these meetings is and has been one of the main concerns for me. I don’t have a personal vendetta against Todd, as it seems some do in this blog, but I do have a concern about the lack of the God’s holy “Word on fire” going forth at his meetings. This is a young movement, and I pray that it matures as it grows, but I’m definitely not going to condemn it, at least not until I see leaders in the body of Christ more mature than myself speaking out against it. I’ve actually seen more approval than I have disapproval.
One other thing, this is being termed as a “healing revival,” not a “teaching revival” (no disrepect to Bob G.) or a “holiness revival.” So my question is, are there different revivals, and if so, are they all supposed to look the same?
May 3rd, 2008 @ 11:31 pm
I would like to withdraw my sentence in the second to last paragraph that implied that some on this blog have a vendetta against Todd. I understand that some have genuine concerns about Todd’s ministry and I appreciate their desire to protect the body of Christ. In light of these concerns, please join me in keeping these issues in prayer.
May 4th, 2008 @ 1:09 am
Having just wiped fresh tears from my cheeks from prayer to the Lord only moments before reading this and fresh tears in my eyes as I read your post now…I am agreeing with you to keep these things in prayer and thank you for retracting that statement.
May 4th, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Hey Guys,
I just finished listening to a preacher from in Banglador, India. It is a 40 minute biblical sermon about deception. Sit down and listen to the whole thing, I found it scripturally quite good.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=7660
May 4th, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
Eric,
Thanks for the simplicity and honesty in your answer. It’s clear, to me anyhow, that you went to see and spoke what you saw. Thanks man.
It’s true that this is a young movement….but then really, it isn’t. And we might want to remember that Todd isn’t a young Christian; he’s been saved for a long time and has had plenty of time to bring his teachings in line with the bible, but hasn’t. I don’t say that as a bash on him, but it’s manifestly obvious. I’ve been following them over the last several years and find a conspicuous absence of many important things that historical revivals had at their center and an emphasis on things that don’t need emphasis or are grossly distorted bible passages, completely lifted out of all historical context and given a meaning they can’t possibly have (i.e. the Joel’s Army teaching). I was saved in a church that was very much caught up in this prophetic movement and was a loyal adherent to it for a couple of years. A long and personal/painful story is behind my coming out of it, but I praise God for the crisis.
So while this experience in Florida is sorta new, what he is and what he stands for is decades old.
The Healing Revival from the 50′s and 60′s seemed to start good and end in horrible deception;
this movement has already started on a foundation of horrible teaching and no “Word on Fire” (I like how you put that). So I’m concerned for how this thing will steer young and impressionable christians into a life of “zeal without knowledge”, which is “not good” according to Proverbs 19:2. I love zeal; Paul said to never lose it and maintain it. But I know personally what it’s like to waste time chasing these hyper charismatic fads that (as you’ve noted) don’t preach the word and seem to almost myopically emphasize certain gifts….as if being biblically literate is anti-thetical to Holy Ghost power. And I’m not implying that you think this Eric, or anyone else on this blog and I appreciate you acknowledging that folks like me are genuinely concerned rather than just being a “hater”.
So I thank God for whatever He is doing in physical healings….
…but I’m pretty sure I’m not going to run after this. I believe that God can and wants to do better than sending a mixed bag revival. Haven’t we had enough of that already? A holy, umixed, pure and righteous, all wise God can indeed do better and I personally want to hold out for the real deal. It seems that when the church is right on the edge of a move of God that a counterfeit always crops up, or if God does do something in response to prayers and petitions we seem to screw it up by what we bring into the thing that He gives. But like I said earlier, He knew the Corinthians and Galatians would go how they went and sent His Holy Ghost anyway.
So I pray that this thing, if it be truly of God, will come in line with the whole bible and not continue on in bad teachings handed down from the Healing Revival teachers like Branham and Hagin.
I guess my concern is that that movement from that generation got messed up bad by goofy, wierd and just plain stupid teachings and because these would not submit to any correction regarding doctrine (which led to bad practise), it died. So if that move couldn’t survive for these reasons which came up over time, how can this possibly last when it’s founded on these errors to begin with? And how many more will be swept away into another 40 years of wilderness? I just really don’t want to see anyone miss the fullness of what God wants to do.
I believe God is wanting to send another wave of healing through His church….but I’m not wanting to jump on the first ship that looks like it’s gonna sail when I can already see the holes in the bow, taking on water…..and none of them care to see it because they’re too busy being mentally drunk to have any sense to ask questions.
Steward the precious gifts, don’t let this thing become a reason for the enemies of God to mock Him.
mark jr.
May 4th, 2008 @ 5:48 pm
Mark,
I don’t think that Eric was saying he attended meetings, only that he had watched them, just for the record.
In any case, I find it interesting that you group Hagin with Branham, since it was Hagin who told others in the healing revival (to paraphrase), “Years from now, you’ll all be gone and I’ll still be here, because you’re basing your ministries on a gift and I’m basing mine on the Word.”
Can you elaborate?
May 4th, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
Doc,
Oh, I thought that he went there. My bad. But I guess if you watch enough you’ll get a pretty good idea of what’s going on….I’d go if I could afford 3.60 a gallon at 19 miles per gallon in my man van. Okay, it’s a soccer mom van….whatever.
Yeah, Hagin was around for a good while on those sentiments. I wish it would have stayed that way. He also warned Brahnam about 2 weeks before his death.
My point was that almost every single “pillar” from that revival ended up teaching really bad stuff, most of it centered on what you “get” from God, e.g. money, healing, money…
…and I know, I know…and you’re right…
…those are things that I myself have been a recipient of and are not bad in and of themselves, but something went askew in the emphasis on those things and the charismatic movement degenerated into a laughing stock (literally).
So while Hagin said that, it just doesn’t seem that in the last analysis he stuck to it. It seems that the love of money got in and sorta steered him in a different direction.
I guess making it sound as if they were identical in heretical stature is a little more than needed, but I just simply meant that the whole thing shipwrecked (for the most part) and I really, really don’t want that to happen again….
…so all my blah blah basically is summed up in the understanding that a real move ended bad and spawned teaching that now plagues the church (and has hijacked real revivals in Africa by making greedy pastors…ask David Servant at http://www.shepherdserve.org), and this move is carried by those who espouse the bad teachings that sank that old ship in the first place…..and it has more stuff added to it (Manifest Sons of God teachings, Dominionism,…) which causes me to wonder what damage will come of this, long term, if the first move left bad long term damage and was built originally on truth, i.e. God still heals today.
And heck, if I’m wrong…them I’m just dumb and I’m open to that. *smirking*
But I thought I heard similar (and probably more politely put) sentiments as these, regarding that old move, a few weeks ago and that these things needed to be avoided in this next move so that we don’t fumble at the 1 yard line….the 1 yard line is my phrase, not B.G.’s, but it’s kinda what it sounded like he was pointing toward. Maybe I’m just ratcheting it up way too many notches.
Thanks for enduring my ramblings and making me explain myself,
mark jr.
May 4th, 2008 @ 6:49 pm
That dumb smiley face is supposed to be a closed parenthesis. I don’t know what I did cuz I’m a tard…
May 4th, 2008 @ 9:21 pm
Hi Dr. Brown,
Remember how God told us “What you have seen at Brownsville is nothing compared to what I will do!” quite some time ago? What if this is the beginning of that?! Wouldn’t that be sooooo cool!!!
Actually, I am not asking your opinion, but rather I am just reminding you of what God said (no ties attached).
May 4th, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
I don’t want to come across as not wanting more of God nor do I not want to see a mighty move of the Spirit in my days, I simply agree with Dr. Brown that no one and no movement is above the Word. We must test all things by the Scripture and by that I don’t mean with simply a critical spirit that presumes things rather than truly wants God’s heart. I pray that Todd Bentley is a man of God and that where he has erred in his teachings then God and others can correct him. I believe he truly wants to hear the voice of God and if that is so then God will lead him and guide him in His Word.
I believe that all of us need to pray for Lakeland and for every nation to be touched by the presence of God. We need to pray for revival and ask God to bring repentance, holiness, and evangelism to the forefront of this revival that we are seeking. None of us are perfect and we all know that God uses us by His grace alone. None of us deserve revival nor God’s Son but by God’s grace we have been set free and I believe the Lord’s heart is to touch us. Let us pray earnestly for this: that God would be glorified in His kingdom!
May 5th, 2008 @ 12:04 am
Bianka,
I hope God IS doing something now that will far exceed anything I’ve seen in the past! I simply have not received a clear word from the Lord yet about what is presently happening.
Mark,
I don’t want to get into a discussion here about Kenneth Hagin’s teaching, but I would say that he stayed true to his goal of basing his teachings on the Word, whether or not you agree with all his positions.
May 5th, 2008 @ 12:39 pm
I have got to voice this: I have been diligently studying Truth for 6 years now. I am 27 years old and I was radically saved at the age of 21 from the bondage of addiction and heavy sin. I have read most of Dr. Brown’s books and have enjoyed and attribute much spiritual growth to them. I now teach the Word and I am careful “not to exceed what is written” I have witnessed manifestations and people getting free in services in the last 6 years and know that it was genuine. I have also seen false manifestations and demonic counterfeits. I have been tuning into the Lakeland revival and I have discerned that some of what I have seen is authentic, however I can not get past what I have heard. So this is my stance, I will praise God that He is being glorified, but I refuse to follow the teaching and ministry of Todd Bentley and will not advise others to do so. I rejoice that people are “falling out” and manifesting the Spirit of God, however if they get up the same way they fell down with no change, what is the purpose of it all. I know that it is God’s Word that changed me and continues to change me. I think Dr. Brown is very wise in not making any comment for or against this move.
May 5th, 2008 @ 4:23 pm
Dr. Brown,
I didn’t mean to make it sound like I wanted to get the gloves on or anything, I was just trying to give understanding as to what was in my own head when I made the statement in question.
And I hope that so far I haven’t been seen as for or against this thing as a whole. There are aspects I’m for, and aspects I’m against and that’s all. I just think that if we really knew where this dude was coming from and what else he’s about (and as a result can suck others into) then perhaps some would be more reticent to jump in feet first.
Where I grew up in Fremont, CA there was this place called Niles. It was the home of all the Charlie Chaplin movies….that has no relevance at all…just thought I’d throw it in there.
But in Niles Canyone there was this 30′ high cement wall next to a dam. We used to go jumping off it all the time. My first time there I began to run to the top of the thing (a hill lead to it) and my buddies older brother Kevin said, “DUDE, wait!! We need to swim in the water for a couple minutes first.” I was like, “why?”
He said, “a few years ago a guy went jumping off this thing and died cuz he impaled himself on a piece of wood under the water that he didn’t see. So let’s get in there and go down a few feet and make sure we clean it out first so we don’t die.”
I thought that was wisdom. Heck, I was stoned and beer buzzed and still knew that this was smart.
I hope that folks will do the same with this ‘move’. It’s a little disheartening for folks to imply that his teachings don’t matter and that no one should care. Again, if that’s the case burn your bibles, especially 1 Corinthians and Galatians and the fist couple chapters of Revelation.
It seems that Paul’s view was to be happy about what was good and loudly decry what was false, wicked or just plain dumb, and this in order to preserve what was really of God in their midst. If it’s biblical, it must be okay. I know I’m not an apostle, but I don’t think that this means I need to swallow the whole enchilada when I know that they cook uses ingredients that make you sick.
Just be careful folks, that’s all.
mark jr.
May 5th, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
Dr. Brown,
Bill Fawcett here. Friend of Becca’s at FIRE school who gave you a word concerning the school back in January of 2001.
The subject is emotionally charged. I am not anti-revival; My wife and I went to Brownsville, she also went to Toronto.
I am surprised at how many people want to validate the Florida outpouring on the basis of signs and wonders. I believe that is IS POSSIBLE for such things to deceive the very elect (Matt 24:24). My thesis is that “signs and wonders” neither confirm or deny the validity of a revival.
I have listened very closely to many hours of Bentley’s meetings, and have looked through his teachings on his website. He is constantly taking about angels, and their brightness (which reminds me of 2 Cor 11:14). Apparently he shares an angel with Branham named “healing revival,” also two with Bob Jones named “Emma” and “winds of change.” His message is that when these angels are present, especially “healing revival” that healing is available.
The requirement that angels be present for God’s healing is somewhat new to me. I’ve always believed that Jesus healed out of compassion. Is his compassion limited by angels?
We must agree that the Scriptures are the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct. Doctrine is important. We cannot lay doctrine by the way just because we have witnessed a miracle, or felt goosebumps, or seen “prophecies” confirmed. II Thessalonians 2:9 tells us that Satan is capable of “counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders.” Should we not expect these as the end draws nigh?
Bentley, in talking about healing, has proclaimed that “we do not have to age.” I could not believe my ears, but I heard this. This is a keystone of the MSoG heresy.
Even before the recent meetings Bentley claimed “apostle status” by virtue of his visitations with Jesus and the apostle Paul. In one visitation he claims to have seen Jesus in an unglorified body, with “eyes like Bambi.” See:
http://freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=218&pid=954&bid=955
At the meeting on 4/25 he announced that he was receiving his “kingly anointing” in the week to come. Without going into the details, this smacks of dominion theology with a good dose of Latter Rain. Be leery of anyone who talks about establishing the “government of God.” See Isaiah 9:6.
Bentley speaks of “spirit travel” as an ordinary thing and mentions that he has literally traveled to Australia in the spirit; that he physically walked on the streets there. So far, no eyewitnesses have come forward.
The entire point of these “third-heaven” experiences is that this movement teaches that revelation gained through such experiences is at a higher level than other revelation (See Steve Thompson’s book). By this definition, a third-heaven revelation trumps much of the Bible. By this revelation Bentley states that the Book of Hebrews, according to Bentley, was written by Abraham, as dictated to Paul through a third-heaven experience, which is why Paul did not claim authorship in the text.
http://freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=189&pid=954&bid=955
Who needs to study the Bible when you can simply claim a higher level revelation and promulgate doctrine based on it?
Where good doctrine is not present, we should simply stay away. And warn others who would be deceived. I appreciate the concern to not rush to judgment. Do not fear that you will miss something that others proclaim God is doing. He may be in it, he may not, or it most likely may be a mixture. We know this for sure: God will reward those who stand on his Word.
May 5th, 2008 @ 7:41 pm
God never told me that it was Him moving at Brownsville, but I don’t recall ever questioning it either. As a matter of fact, the manifestations I witnessed did not make sense to my German mind and watching them freaked me out at times, but I felt God was present and I looked passed it all and embraced His presence. I didn’t really know what was preached, I don’t even think I knew what an Assembly of God Church believed and stood for, but I do know that when I was there I was certain that there was something absolutely amazing going on and I didn’t want to miss it for anything.
I feel the same about what is going on in Lakeland. I don’t know much about Todd Bentley’s background or what he believes, what I do know is that God is doing something absolutely amazing down there and I am hungry for it! All that matters is that Jesus is touching people and changing lives, that’s what I care about!!
What am I trying to say? There were people for Brownsville and people who took a strong stand against it and people who were floating around just somewhere in the middle. It all comes down to it that you will have to decide for yourself where you stand. We can go back and forth for weeks about this topic, but you are responsible for your own life and walk before God and have to discern and decide what you will do with what is going on in Lakeland for yourself. I think that is quite comforting!
May 5th, 2008 @ 9:14 pm
In humility, let me ask.
How did you know it was God moving in Brownsville? Was it based on a feeling? Was it based on scripture?
BTW: As stated earlier, I believe God did move in Brownsville!
May 5th, 2008 @ 9:19 pm
So you embrace the move in Lakeland?
May I make one request. I won’t try and tell you what to do, but I would like to at least leave you with this warning….
Please don’t wink at false doctrines. Even in the midst of a move of God. Ignoring false doctrine when you know it is wrong is exactly what Satan wants you to do. If God is healing people and the credit is given to an angel, that is false doctrine. When God sent a serpent on a pole to heal Isreal (Numbers 21:6-9), should the Isrealites have remained silent when the object of healing was worshiped instead of the God who heals? (2 Kings 18:4)
Don’t walk in bitterness, don’t walk in distain. But walk in truth, even against the popular ideas of “it’s all good”. If false worship is the result of God healing people, we should not be silent and allow our brothers and sisters to continue in falsehood.
Certainly show grace to people, but don’t let that keep you from holding to the truth of scripture. When man accurately judges an action, he is simply reitterating the already given judgement of God.
Though I may disagree on certain points, do not let this be one of them. Let us enjoy the signs & wonders WITHOUT having to sacrifice truth.
I love ya’ll
May 5th, 2008 @ 9:20 pm
^I am not saying you need to take issue with every point of disagreement…. but don’t drop your values for the sake of “This might be it!!!”
Thanks
May 5th, 2008 @ 9:26 pm
Bianka,
Praise God they you were touched at Lakeland, because the only one that can get glory for that is God Himself…. I think it is dangerous to say because this feels like God, it must be God. We are given God’s Word and we are not to bow down to any other Word, if another Word is presented as His and we accept it, we are walking on dangerous territory spiritually. Please go and read I Kings 13. See what happens to the prophet that God called to warn Jeroboam. He was used mightly by God, but because he accepted a false word from another prophet that was not God’s Word he was destroyed. That was it, that was the only sin he commited and it resulted in his death, he received another Word that was contrary to the one he received from God. I hope I am not discouraging you to receive from God, but we can not just jump into anything that feels good without contrasting it with Scripture. Just remember when Antichrist comes, he will be offering something that feels good to a lot of people.
-Daniel
May 5th, 2008 @ 10:26 pm
Hi Phil,
I believe and discerned Brownsville to be a sovereign move of God! As a matter of fact, the one thing I thought distinguished what God was doing at Brownsville from just any other church was that you could feel the tangible presence of God.
Some nights the conviction of the Holy Spirit was so strong you could cut it with a knife. It left me awestruck! But the best of it all was to see so many people get right with God and touched during the prayer time. I loved it!!
Daniel,
I appreciate your concern. It’s kind of sad to me though that so many people seem to feel like what is going on in Lakeland is a counterfeit move of God (not saying that is what you are saying). By the way, I haven’t been to Lakeland, but do have friends who went and heard good reports.
The one thing that keeps coming to my mind is that Jesus offended the Pharisees continually by healing the sick on the Sabbath. The Pharisees were the one who said “He is breaking the law”. I think there is a very fine line between wanting truth to be established and picking up an offense. I can’t help, but think that maybe, just maybe God decided to use Todd Bentley to reveal what is really in our hearts.
May 5th, 2008 @ 11:16 pm
Bianka,
I am not by any means saying that this is a counterfeit revival, quit frankly I don’t know what it is, and I am not willing to admit totally for or against. I do know one thing, that I can not or will not receive any other gospel even if it is given by an angel from heaven.
Galatians 1:6-8 (NASB)
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
I am not calling anyone cursed, don’t misquote me, I am just simply sharing the Word….. Lord help us in these last days to follow your Word like a lamp shining in a dark place and to pay attention to all that it commands us and to follow it’s direction no matter what man says to the contrary let us allow Your Word to be found true though every man be found a liar.
-Daniel
May 6th, 2008 @ 7:52 am
Some very interesting and bold statements by Rick Joyner:
“I was also not at all surprised to hear that the Lord was using Todd Bentley to spark this new outpouring of the Spirit in Lakeland. If you have any doubts about Todd, don’t. He is the real thing and has one of the greatest gifts of faith for the release of the power of God of anyone I’ve ever known, and I’ve known some of the great ones. I’ve only been with Todd one time when high level supernatural did not start happening—when he was going through his “dark night of the soul.” Even then, the Spirit of revelation was all over him, and I had no doubt when he came out of that period he would go to a much higher level. What has been happening in Lakeland has been great, but I expect it to go much higher, in Lakeland, or wherever else this breaks out.
However, Todd needs a little prophetic explanation (okay, maybe a lot). I have known Todd for many years. He is definitely new generation, but in a remarkable way he is almost a composite of some of the great healing evangelists of the 1940s and 1950s. I think it is because he is wearing some of the mantles from the great evangelists of that period. I say “some of the mantles,” because just as the Lord’s mantle was divided when He was crucified, the anointed pass on their mantles of authority, and they are usually divided and given to many, not just one. Like Jacob did for his son Joseph, the Lord likes to make special coats for His children that are many colors or diverse. Most of our coats or mantles are composites of those who have gone before us, and some are unique new ones.
For example, I think Benny Hinn carries part of the mantle that was from Kathryn Kuhlman, but he also has others, and likely, at least part of a mantle that God made especially for him. Just as part of God’s joy in creation is seeing two of His children join together and bring forth children that have part of both of their parents, but are unique, the Lord also does this by joining spiritual ancestry as well.
In this way, if you have seen Todd you have also seen some of the great healing revivalists of the 1940s and 1950s. That is why right after we had the Honoring the Fathers Conference in early April, when we honored some of the great revivalists of that period, as soon as I heard that revival had broken out through Todd’s ministry in Lakeland, I knew it was right, and right on time. It is right that this has come through another Strader, and I expect this to have long-reaching impact. However, as awesome as this is or it yet becomes, there are prophetic indications that this is the last great spiritual birth pang before the birth of another Great Awakening, which I expect this fall.”
Conclusion
“As stated, I was told in a dream that if we would honor the fathers the Lord would bring revival to America within six months. I was shown to honor the fathers who were the leaders of the great Healing Revival of the 1940s and 1950s. If you want to honor them and see what they were like, and partake of the blessing and anointing that was on them, I would go to Lakeland and see Todd Bentley.
Is what is happening now in Lakeland the beginning of the fulfillment of the prophecies about the “nameless, faceless” generation of leaders who fill stadiums with crowds being healed of all manner of diseases and witnessing all manner of miracles? It could help ignite this, and that could be what this gives birth to. Some are protesting that we cannot say that a work centered on one person, such as is on Todd, is a “nameless faceless” one. However, it could be that the Lord has raised up someone like Todd to represent the old in order to anoint the new, just as he raised up John the Baptist as the last and greatest of an order to baptize and prophesy over the new. It does seem that this is the way the Lord does these things, requiring the new to humble themselves before their fathers, submitting to them, and being sent out by them.
Do not let pride keep you from going to Lakeland. It is right to go and get immersed and baptized by what is happening there. It is contagious, and it will likely come to your town through someone else if you are not willing. God is pouring out His Spirit. Even though we have an extraordinary outbreak going on here at Heritage that is about as strong as we can stand, we plan to send many to Lakeland to honor what is going on there, and receive as much as we can to keep pouring it on here. We pray for them every night and greatly rejoice in what God is doing there. What the Lord is doing here is quite different and is supposed to be, just as I think the outbreak in every place is supposed to be unique. Our God loves diversity.”
http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000031549
May 6th, 2008 @ 8:52 am
Daniel,
Please read my post again, I didn’t say that you believe it’s a counterfeit move of God and actually made sure to point that out.
As I said before, you will have to decide for yourself what you believe about Lakeland.
May 6th, 2008 @ 9:28 am
Bianka,
Thanks for responding to my question. And thanks for being willing to discuss these issues in a civil manner!
Make sure you don’t use feeling as an authenticator. Use the word of God.
Brownsville was real because it lined up with the essentials of scripture. Accurate teaching on salvation & the SOLE worship of God.
May 6th, 2008 @ 9:30 am
Eric, is any of that found in scripture?
May 6th, 2008 @ 9:35 am
I must continue to hold God’s Word in higher regard than Rick Joyner’s.
And due to teachings of Todd Bentley’s that fail to line up with scripture, although I believe Todd Bentley does have a gift from God, I simply cannot jump on board…to do so, for me, would be much akin to the following analogy…
A large family is at the beach and is enjoying lying out in the sun. As they look out at the beautiful blue water of the ocean they decide to go for a swim. Several members of this family, however, have just seen what they believe to be the dorsal fin of a shark and they tell the others what they believe they have just seen and warn that rather than go swimming in those waters, it would be wiser to wait until they are certain the waters are safe. Other family members ignore their warnings and just continue talking about what a beautiful day it is and how lovely the waters are and how much they have waited and wanted to come to the ocean and go for a swim, in fact they have never seen waters that blue. The members of the family who initially saw the dorsal fin, now see several more and continue to say so…many of the family members dive in anyway and yes, the waters are blue, but are they safe?
Below is just one of those potential “shark” issues:
I wanted to share with you an excerpt from a Christian apologist who has written numerous books on New Age philosophy.
This particular excerpt is from Douglas Groothuis’ book entitled “Confronting the New Age” (chapter 9). In this chapter, the author specifically differentiates between a God given “Vision” versus a soulishly induced “visualization”.
(Many Christians have expressed concern that Todd Bentley’s writings and teachings on visiting the third Heaven are nothing more than new age creative visualization techniques and that they are extremely dangerous, so if you have his teachings, please take this author’s warning seriously and if you would like more information, I believe his books are still available on the internet.)
The excerpt follows:
Visualization is the subjective activation of the imagination by human will. Visualizing a certain scene is not the same as receiving a vision sent from God. The one is psychologically induced; and the other divinely introduced.
Some have justified quite quixotic visualization techniques by blurring this important distinction. Several writers have even advocated visualizing Jesus for the purpose of spiritual growth. This is unwise for several reasons. It neglects the fallen nature of our imagination. Scripture warns us of making and worshipping vain images of God which are really idols (Ex 20:4-5). We may very likely conjure up a Jesus made more in our image than God’s. Consider the revelation of Jesus to the apostle John. John was “In the spirit” on the Lord’s day when granted an incredible vision of the ascended Christ: one :like a son of man” dressed in a long robe with a golden sash, his head and hair white as snow, his eyes like blazing fire, his feet like glowing bronze, his voice like the sound of rushing waters, his face brilliantly shining like the son. He held in His right hand seven stars, and from His mouth came a double-edged sword (Rev 1:12-16). What was John’s response? I dare say it was different from the self-styled visualizers of today. He said, “When I saw Him I fell at His feet as though dead.” Yet Jesus comforted him by saying “Do not be afraid” (v. 17). Visions are certainly possible today (Acts 2:17), but they must be distinguished from visualizations and checked against Scripture.
It seems legitimate sometimes to visualize how Jesus may have looked during a particular Gospel account if this helps to make vivid the event in our minds. For instance, Paul graphically presented Christ in his preaching to the Galatians, before whose “very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified,” as he put it (3:1). John Stott notes that the Greek word for portrayed probably means to draw or paint. He says that “Paul…likens his gospel-preaching either to a huge canvas painting or to a placard exhibiting a notice or advertisement. The subject of his painting or placard was Jesus Christ on the cross…It was so visual, so vivid, in its appeal to their imagination, that the placard was presented ‘before your very eyes.’”
Visualizing Jesus on the cross dying on our behalf may indeed stimulate faith, worship, praise and obedience. Yet visualizing Jesus in order to set up a personal counseling session with Son of God is more than a little presumptuous. Don Matzat puts it well:
The Christian church has always taught that God reaches down for man, rather than man reaching within for God. Revelation begins with God, and not with man “priming his visualization pump” to talk to Jesus. Biblical Christianity has always directed man outside himself to a God Who, by the working of the Holy Spirit through the preaching of the Gospel, acts upon man in order to bring him to faith and salvation.
We must realize that the psychological conjuring practice of visualization may, under certain conditions, open one up to counterfeit Christs, “angels of light” (2 Cor 11:14), who are enemies of God and humanity. An elaborate visualization exercise could induce an altered state of consciousness quite amenable to demonic insurgents. Shakti Gawain, for instance, says that “creative visualizaion” can easily introduce one to “spirit guides”, the likes of whom would be thrilled to meet us. Occult visualizaion has been used for centuries to invoke blind guides, and if Christians falsely assume that their visualizaions will invoke the real Jesus, they could be setting themselves up for deception.”
In conclusion, here is a quote from a Charisma article from several years back. In it, Rick Joyner and others are discussing Paul Cain’s issues and restoration…
Meanwhile, Deere, Bickle and Joyner said they regret giving Cain a platform. “I think our basic mistake was to overlook a lot of serious and obvious warning signs,” Joyner told Charisma.
Deere agreed. “We all have preached that you never put gifting over character,” he said, “but that is what we did for Paul. We would have fired anyone else. The reason we didn’t is because of [Cain's] gifting. We let that gifting excuse character.”
In Todd Bentley’s case, let us pray that they have not decided to put gifting over sound doctrine and that Christian leaders don’t minimize the concerns about Todd Bentley’s teachings, just because Rick Joyner has acknowledged his gifting. God gives us all gifts…we must choose how we use them. The point here is, is Todd Bentley teaching sound doctrine, pointing people to Jesus Christ and Him alone and above all others and is what he is teaching lining up with God’s Holy Word?
May 6th, 2008 @ 10:02 am
Thank you Lisa… you articulate much better then I
Are you a Fire grad?
May 6th, 2008 @ 11:10 am
Phil,
If you are insinuating that everything I am saying is solely based on my feelings than I do not consider that a compliment. I weigh things before God and in the light of His Word constantly. As I said before though, I do not see the purpose of rejecting what God is doing in Lakeland because of some indifferences I might have with Todd Bentley’s teachings.
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:00 pm
Bianka brings up an interesting point: “I do not see the purpose of rejecting what God is doing in Lakeland because of some indifferences I might have with Todd Bentley’s teachings.” I’ll assume you meant to say “differences” instead of “indifferences”.
It seems that almost everyone here has differences with Todd Bentley’s teachings, the question is “so what?” Practically, what should we do with that? Should it stop us from going to Lakeland? Should it stop us from going to a place where this seems to be “breaking out” elsewhere? Should it make us cower in our closets afraid to “catch” this virus? Are these differences significant enough to warrant any action at all?
I’d be interested to hear what people’s responses are to these questions.
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
Bianka,
I am not insinuating anything. I asked how you discerned these movements & you answered based on your sense of the presence of God… ect.
I simply wanted to encourage everyone to make sure scripture is the guiding light for all our discernment! I am not sitting in any form of judgement over you.
Now, in reguards to “rejecting”… I would never ask a person to reject anything of God!!! I simply ask everyone to go to scripture… and if it is not aligned it is not of God. Can we not agree on this?
It is possible to eat the meat and spit out the bones. This is not an all or nothing choise. We can rejoice that God is healing people!!! And at the ame time be grieved that angels are being praised for the healing.
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:31 pm
oops…. i posted under a differnt name LOL….
I am in the midst of setting up a news blog for my company
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:35 pm
Marcus,
Thanks for catching that. English is my second language.
I did mean “differences”.
Phil,
I don’t get your point anymore. I think you are digging yourself a hole.
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:49 pm
Phil, the angels do far more than healing…
Bentley on Finances:
“So when I need a financial breakthrough I don’t just pray and ask God for my financial breakthrough. I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: “Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money.”
May 6th, 2008 @ 12:56 pm
Hey guys
Here are a few things God shwoed me in light of the recent happenings.
Be Blessed.
John
A PROPHETIC WORD FOR THE SEASON
As I was seeking the Lord on the nature of the recent happenings in the body of Christ,
the Lord showed me and also said that the rains are not just for the wheat but also so that the tares can mature. Then I realized that the tares grew along with the wheat in the parable, received the same rains the wheat received and also would have produced fruit of its own kind.
So in light of that there are several important things that concern!!
While there is no question that God is pouring out His Spirit it is important that we produce fruit that God values from us more.
1) For that firstly we need to be totally yielded to God. The emphasis now seems to be more on outward manifestation and miracles. While that is not necessarily wrong, if we don’t strike a proper balance with the more essential truths we would be in danger of crossing the line. We would have grown in miracles and healings but if we haven’t grown the same measure in God’s Love and Holiness we might end up being deceived and deceiving ourselves.
2) Secondly there is a desperate need for solid truths to be preached during these times. History will show us that during times of out pouring when there were no solid truths being preached or proper foundations laid, the outpourings didn’t last long or people went into extremes.
3) Thirdly we need to examine our lives to see if we have received truth when it was brought to us for if we hadn’t God will send a powerful deception so that we believe a lie.
Finally brethren true revival would produce Holiness and with it signs and miracles.
Let us be aware that the coming of the lawless one would also be marked with many great lying signs and wonders. The difference between the two is Holiness and walking in God’s Love.
May 6th, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Bill,
We already have plenty of comments detailing Todd Bentley’s teachings, the question I have, again, is what should we do about this? You said previously:
“Where good doctrine is not present, we should simply stay away. And warn others who would be deceived.”
Are you saying people should stay away from Lakeland? What about people and places “affected” by Lakeland? What deception, exactly, are you worried about? What do you think about how Lakeland is doing with reference to the 4 criteria laid out by Dr. Brown concerning revival?
May 6th, 2008 @ 1:08 pm
Phil,
You said: “Now, in reguards to “rejecting”… I would never ask a person to reject anything of God!!! I simply ask everyone to go to scripture… and if it is not aligned it is not of God. Can we not agree on this?”
How much of a meeting needs to be out of whack with scripture before it is not of God? 1%, 5%? What about the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine? If that is not aligned with the Word of God, does that mean that churches preaching it will not be “of God”? Or if a pre-trib doctrine does line up with the Word, does that mean that churches that don’t believe that are not “of God”?
May 6th, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
Lisa,
You said: “I must continue to hold God’s Word in higher regard than Rick Joyner’s.
And due to teachings of Todd Bentley’s that fail to line up with scripture, although I believe Todd Bentley does have a gift from God, I simply cannot jump on board…to do so, for me, would be much akin to the following analogy…”
Can I ask what “not jumping on board” means for you?
May 6th, 2008 @ 1:44 pm
>Practically, what should we do with that?
Be a prophetic voice to the church today that says “doctrine matters.”
(2 Timonthy 3:16)
>Should it stop us from going to Lakeland?
Bentley says its “contagious.”
But seriously, I can’t think why I should hop on a plane and go there. I’m not afraid of missing God. He lives within my heart.
I obviously don’t buy into this “portals” thing .
>Should it stop us from going to a place where this seems to be “breaking out” elsewhere?
I stopped going to those places about 5 years ago. Got tired of the emphasis on personal prophecy which leads to manipulation. But its hard to make a blanket statement.
It depends on that “this” is.
>Should it make us cower in our closets afraid to “catch” this virus?
No, but we should warn young christians.
>Are these differences significant enough to warrant any action at all?
Indeed. The Bentley vision-inspired theologies of healing and angels are hideous. You made a reference to pre-trib / post-trib – these differences exsit yet we seem to tolerate them in the church.
When those differences become too great, i.e. the MSoG eschatology, we reject them.
When differences of interpetation exist that don’t lead to heresy, I say live and let live. When people start claiming NEW revelations based on 3rd heaven experiences which they claim have the highest level of authority I say we shuld flat-out reject them.
Someone earlier mentioned that we “should eat the meat and spit out the bones.” Under that thoery, would you subject yourself to a diet of recordings of Herbert W. Armstrong? I used to listen to him as a kid, but was blessed with a modicum of discernment. And he had SOME good things to say. However I would not recommend that to anyone.
Also, I’d suggest that a good shepherd does not feed his sheep meat with bones.
May 6th, 2008 @ 2:02 pm
Bianka,
Sorry for not being clear
Basically, my point is to encourage everyone to use the scripture as our guilding light & not inner feeling.
Be blessed
May 6th, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Marcus,
Great questions!!!
What do you think? Does a church need to be 95% off before you would break fellowship?
BTW: I am not advocating breaking fellowship. Simply, we can rejoice in the fact that God is healing and yet be greived (in the very least) by the over exhaulting of angels.
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
I was going to pretty much stay out of this, but I would like to give a testimony.
My wife and I and a couple of friends from FIRE went down last Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. If we had just gone Monday and Tuesday, I would have come back and said, ‘Great meeting. God is there. People are getting saved, healed, and delivered, and if one needs a healing or miracle they should go. But then there was Wednesday night.
At some point, the power and presence of God came into the building in a way that was not manifest Monday or Tuesday, although He certainly was there those other nights. There is actually a lot more to this story as prophetically God has been showing my wife some things over the past few years and her experience there Wednesday night was a culmination and fulfillment of some of the things God has been showing her. But I won’t share those right now, just my experience.
Anyway, the power and presence of God came into the building in a way I had never experienced it before, and I was at Brownsville for three years. I actually turned to the person sitting beside me and said ‘This is the raw power of God’. God’s holiness was present and people all over the building began to travail just like happened in many of the meetings at Brownsville. Todd began to talk about the Church repenting from its wickedness and repentance in general and it was a very somber and sobering time.
As many that went to Brownsville will tell you, many times there was no evident change in them while they were actually in the meetings and in the glory and presence of God. They only became aware of them when they got back to their ‘normal’ lives. Let me say this, there is one thing that happened to me that I have never had happen, and that was like electricity in my bones. My wife and one the other people that went down said at one point up in altar where they were worshiping that it was like electricity running up and down their bodies.
But as I was saying, when I got back I could tell I had been changed. I think all can relate to when God does something in you, and you didn’t know you needed it until it was done. That’s the way this was. There is a fresh fire and hunger in me for the things of God and to see Him set the captives set free. Also a depth in my prayer and worship that hasn’t been there, along with a greater desire for it also.
We have a saying down here in the South, “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” Well, I went and ate and it is real pudding. Not only real pudding, but REAL GOOD pudding. And I don’t mean this sarcastically, but one can debate doctrine and all these other things all they want. I have been and tasted, and it is GOD in a tremendous way. Whatever may happen, I don’t know. But it will not invalidate that at this point it is God, any more than the split at Brownsville invalidated that as being a move of God. Brownsville was genuine, and so is Lakeland at this time.
I encourage you to ‘taste’ for yourself, rather than just engaging in theological arguments which really have NO bearing on whether God is moving or not. When John questioned Jesus, He pointed him to the healings and miracles, “how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.” He didn’t get in a theological debate with him. Satan cannot cast out satan.
I encourage you to actually go. There is really no way to tell otherwise. Certainly miracles do not validate a person’s doctrine. But neither does wrong doctrine invalidate that the power is of God. All I know is, “Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.”
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
Brian,
Thank you for sharing! That was a very encouraging report.
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:37 pm
Phil,
Thank you, so much, for your kind words. To answer your question, no I’m not a FIRE grad. I graduated from BRSM as a member of the Pioneer class. I started attending services at Brownsville during the Revival in early 1996 and was a member there for a little over 9 years. (During that time, suffice it to say, I saw alot. I believe syncritism to be as insidious as it is dangerous…we have got to speak out against it when we see it in the body…)
Marcus,
You asked “Can I ask what “not jumping on board” means for you?”
Perhaps I should have made it clearer and given further use to my analogy by stating that I have no intention of jumping in the water, until and unless I know that it is safe
(Oh, and just in case you wondered, my decision has nothing to do with “cowering”…it has everything to do with having spent much time in prayer to the Lord concerning these issues and having a clear word from Him that, no I am not to dive into that water…cause something isn’t quite right. In my years of walking with the Lord, I know better than to push through and ignore His warnings. Yeah, been there, done that…results were not good, don’t have any desire to do that again!)
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:38 pm
Phil,
I wasn’t referring to breaking fellowship, I was referring to the question of whether something was “of God” or not. You said: “I simply ask everyone to go to scripture… and if it is not aligned it is not of God. ”
Could you elaborate more on what you mean by “of God”?
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
Brian,
Apparently we were typing at the same time…glad God touched you mightily and you were blessed
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:45 pm
Thanks Lisa. My wife and I are BRSM grads also (Dec. ’99). I would encourage you to go to test the waters. God will keep you if it isn’t right. I believe we can have more confidence in God’s ability to keep us than we do in the devil’s ability to deceive us.
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:57 pm
Markus,
I understand your question now.
Let me try to explain in example:
——————————————-
A man teaches:
Christ died to save the elect of the world. The sins of many were place on him. And it is only by grace through faith n the work of the cross that a born sinner can enter into the forgiveness of an almighty and righteous God.
Later…. in the same sermon, the man teaches that all christian men should wear a neck tie in public and all christian women should dress in long skirts in public… because after all, we should not conform to the “image” of the world.
——————————————————
^Part of that message was of God & Part of it was not.
In some situations we may be called to take issue with his bad doctrine on neck ties… in other situations we may be called to remain silent…. but in either case, God can still operate in this imperfect vessle.
Now in light of the danger of attributing divine healing to any being besides almight God…. should we not at least consider openly voicing our disagreement of this false teaching when we openly voice our support of the movement?
PS: Another for instance, Jonnathan Edwards was without a doubt a gifted leader and certainly God used him mightly (and even still his teachings on salvation are used to convict sinners)… yet, I have reservations about openly endorsing him without at least voicing my disagreement on his owning and trading of slaves.
May 6th, 2008 @ 3:59 pm
Lisa,
Thanks for the response, even if you answered my question of what you meant by a certain analogy with another analogy
I’m asking these questions because many of us WILL be affected by this event, even if we never go to Lakeland, because brothers and sisters in our churches and communities ARE going to it. I really don’t want to see either those who go or those who don’t treated as second class citizens. People hungry for God are coming to Lakeland expecting to meet God, what’s wrong with that? There seems to be reason for concern with regard to some of the teachings held by the main person involved with the revival, and so many are wary of it, what’s wrong with that?
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:04 pm
Phil,
“Eric, is any of that found in scripture?”
Hey, I’m just passing on what a highly respected leader in the body of Christ has to say about Todd and the revival.
He had a dream-People in the Bible had dreams.
He has visions- People in the Bible had visions.
Actually in the last days that’s what is supposed to happen. Acts 2 doesn’t tell us what those dreams and visons will be about, it only says that the old and young will have them.
So if the content of Rick’s dream isn’t in the Bible then that makes it not “of God?”
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:06 pm
That was awesome Brian!
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:24 pm
Phil,
So when you said:
“Now, in reguards to “rejecting”… I would never ask a person to reject anything of God!!! I simply ask everyone to go to scripture… and if it is not aligned it is not of God. Can we not agree on this?”
You didn’t mean that you want people to reject the Lakeland revival as a whole, but instead any of the doctrines coming out of it that are not scriptural? I don’t think anyone here would disagree with that.
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:27 pm
Hi Brian,
You said,
“Thanks Lisa. My wife and I are BRSM grads also (Dec. ‘99). I would encourage you to go to test the waters. God will keep you if it isn’t right. I believe we can have more confidence in God’s ability to keep us than we do in the devil’s ability to deceive us. ”
And I agree that God can keep us and I totally trust Him! In my case, as I said previously…
(Oh, and just in case you wondered, my decision has nothing to do with “cowering”…it has everything to do with having spent much time in prayer to the Lord concerning these issues and having a clear word from Him that, no I am not to dive into that water…cause something isn’t quite right. In my years of walking with the Lord, I know better than to push through and ignore His warnings. Yeah, been there, done that…results were not good, don’t have any desire to do that again!)
So, for me to follow your advice and “go test the waters” would be in direct contradiction to what He has spoken to me…and therefore, I gotta go with God on this one
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:45 pm
Lisa,
When you say “Yeah, been there, done that…results were not good, don’t have any desire to do that again!” are you saying that you got somehow burnt attending the Brownsville Revival? I wasn’t sure how to interpret that statement.
May 6th, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
Phil,
I do appreciate your zeal for the purity of God’s Word, but I don’t understand the overall reason why I should not embrace what GOD is doing in Lakeland. I hope I didn’t come across stating that we should throw out all common sense and a desire to uphold truth for the sake of nice “feelings”, falling out or other manifestations. That’s totally not the standard I uphold.
There were MANY manifestations at Brownsville when I attended and quite a few things that did not make sense to me. I could not find proof in the Scriptures for it either (I was 19 years old and didn’t know as much as I do now), but I still discerned God was moving at Brownsville contrary to how I felt about the manifestations. Steve Hill’s salvation messages were clear, the responses to the altar calls were enormous, the changed lives I witnessed all indicated to me that it was God’s doing.
And besides all that, I’ve had a relationship with God back then and still have one today. Yes, I have grown over the years, but I have to go by what I think is right in His eyes and not by all the “warnings” I kept hearing and keep hearing. That’s why I keep saying you will have to decide for yourself when it comes to Lakeland, just as it was with Brownsville.
Does this explain a little better why I am not solely placing my decision on a “nice” feeling, Phil?
May 6th, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
Marcus,
Exactly my point! If people don’t disagree with me, why am I being critisised for simply saying, let’s compair it to the bible?
Bianka,
Awesome post!
May 6th, 2008 @ 5:21 pm
Bianka,
By no means was I speaking about the Brownsville Revival or being “burned” in any way. If you will read my statement in context with the sentence preceeding it…I think it will be clear what I was referring to…
And I quote (myself), “In my years of walking with the Lord, I know better than to push through and ignore His warnings. Yeah, been there, done that…results were not good, don’t have any desire to do that again!”
I was simply referring to taking His warnings to me seriously and not ignoring themor acting contrary to what He is warning me about. I would tell you the stories if I knew you better and this were not such a public forum. But I have learned enough, at this point in my life, to pay attention to His warnings and not attempt to rationalize them away. I also know that it is not necessary for me to explain all of my decisions to others in hopes that they will approve or in concern that they will not approve…what matters is that my actions and attitudes are pleasing in His sight. And it is to that end that I have tried to carefully present my concerns re: Todd Bentley’s teachings.
May 6th, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
Eric,
I’m not talking about any visions…
I am asking if these are in the bible
-Doctrines of spiritual ancestry
-An even “newer” order then that of the new covenant????? YIKES!!!
Yes, John the baptist was indeed the last of an old order…. there was only one final order after him… the church
May 6th, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
I think that so far what some say (like me) is “thank God for what is God and throw out what is not God and help others see these things as well.”
Can God flood that room with power, conviction and salvation? Well, yeah, He’s God.
But as others have pointed out (especially John), when God does this and a bad foundation is laid afterward (or already existing), then trouble is on the horizon. I just hope that in this move the charismatic fringe gets burned out of existance.
As far as doctrines go:
Some are fellowship breakers, some are not. I have Calvinist friends and pre-trib friends and cessasionist friends. No broken fellowship there.
But there is a Herbert Armstrong church 100 yards away from my house and there’s no way in heck I’m kickin’ with them. When you botch the diety of Christ, we have no spiritual common ground.
When doctrines make you see things differently in a way that doesn’t hurt your walk or make it a useless one that chases stuff of a soulish/made-up-in-the-imagination kind, then that’s cool.
But when the teachings cause a kind of disctraction that neccessarily brings a sidetracking that ends in futility (i.e. Bill Younts candy bar prophecy in 2004 that none of the Elijah List prophets rebuked), then I take issue on those specifics.
Basically, let the peace of God rule your heart, as Paul told us by the Spirit.
But that which is not done in faith is sin. If I eat meat, drink wine or do anything at all and I have doubts, I sin. Peace has to be enthroned.
So if you’re in that place of peace, I commit you to the GIGANTIC and powerful love of a Holy God who is bigger than deception.
If you’re not okay in your spirit and you touch this thing, you have violated your conscience and begun an erosion of your discernment that you cannot afford to lose. When you begin to break that wall down, it becomes easier and easier to drown out the voice of God.
I was remembering today (I believe by the Lord’s giving) that I was saved in a church that was as nutty as a fruitcake. People were standing over me at the altar saying and doing stupid stuff. I still remember wishing that this one lady would hush and let me be, but she had to “break curses” and whatever…I was already free! LOL…
…and I was in that church for years. God’s hand was on me and He was with me in power, conviction, in fueling a love for the Word…
…and I thank Him for it. It was in that environment that I came to see through it’s cheap veneer and shallowness and lack of intuition/discernment. That and they had horrible doctrine…to be perfectly honest, they were all up on Todd Bentley and the whole prophetic movement and such and taught the same things that many have shared here.
And God kept me. I made it out alive….
…but some didn’t. Some shipwrecked and got turned off from God because of the errors that everyone shrugged their shoulders at and they will burn in an eternal hell in a judgment that is now heighthened by their previous knowledge of God (Hebrews 10:26-29 and 2 Peter 2:20).
One of my blog buddies was in Brownsville for 4 years with all of you in the late nineties. If I said his name, many of you might know him. He’s now a total cessasionist and 5 point Calvinist….(I love Calvinist authors and preachers by the way). Why? He attributes it to Brownsville….which is wierd because Brownville video’s of preaching rocked my world for Christ, but I didn’t live there. Apparently there was this odd element of this prophetic movement’s horrible spiritual errors in it that went un-addressed and jacked him up and now he thinks it’s all bunk.
THIS is what no one wants to see, and so this is why I implore those of you in 100% favor of this thing to please quit implying that doctrine doesn’t matter…it does, especially when it’s doctrine relating to the specific functions of spiritual matters and gifts. A little leaven leavens the whole lump.
It’s interesting that John’s word up above made mention of revivals getting wrecked because bad foundations were laid and winked at. I especially took note of Him quoting God as speaking about His rain falling on wheat seeds and tare seeds, in essence.
When I did a study on the word “tares” in the bible, I found out it was something called the darnel seed. I’d like to quote a few dictionaries on this.
“Easton’s Bible Dictionary describes “tares” as follows:
“the bearded darnel, mentioned only in Matt. 13:25-30. It is the Lolium temulentum, a species of rye-grass, the seeds of which are a strong soporific poison. It bears the closest resemblance to wheat till the ear appears, and only then the difference is discovered. It grows plentifully in Syria and Palestine.”
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition 2000 defines “soporific: as:
ADJECTIVE: 1. Inducing or tending to induce sleep. 2. Drowsy.
NOUN: A drug or other substance that induces sleep; a hypnotic.
Smith’s Bible Dictionary offers these comments on the “tares”:
“There can be little doubt that the zizania of the parable, #Mt 13:25 denotes the weed called “darnel” (Lolium temulentum). . . . The grains of the L. temulentum, if eaten, produce convulsions, and even death.”
A very interesting note I found on Botanical.com concerning darnel was this:
“The admixture of the grain with those of the nutritious cereals amongst which it is often found growing should be guarded against, as its properties are generally regarded as deleterious. Gerard tells us: ‘the new bread wherein Darnel is eaten hot causeth drunkenness.’ When Darnel has been given medicinally in a harmful quantity, it is recorded to have produced all the symptoms of drunkenness: a general trembling, followed by inability to walk, hindered speech and vomiting. For this reason the French call Darnel: ‘Ivraie,’ from Ivre (drunkenness); the word Darnel is itself of French origin and testifies to its intoxicating qualities, being derived from an old French word Darne, signifying stupefied. The ancients supposed it to cause blindness, hence with the Romans, lolio victitare, to live on Darnel, was a phrase applied to a dim-sighted person.”
I honestly believe it IS important to be the servants in the parable about the wheat and tares who could identify the one from the other. In so doing we won’t eat the poison.
My struggle is wanting to be like the servants in their initial reaction, i.e. “pull them bad boys up by the roots man!!”
NO, Jesus says: you’ll hurt the good that is next to the bad.
So I pray that those of you to whom I am joined will not eat the bad seeds and that Jesus gives you eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to know. Pray that I resist my knee jerk (emphasis on jerk) response to rip stuff up. Hopefully, the fact that I’m willing to admit it is an evidence that God’s working on me in this and that I’ll do what’s right. You folks at FIRE have no idea how much I love you and how watching you jump up and down and weep and cry when you sing has affected me….and you probably haven’t even met me yet. That’s cool, it’a big growing church and I’m not doggin’ it at all, I love this place.
I say that so that those of you with whom I disagree on some things will know my heart, that it is very soft and inclined toward you tenderly because of how God has changed me in so short a time.
How?
Because when you didn’t think someone was watching your walk with God, someone was and it changed him….and all you did was just do what you do for Jesus.
So with that, I think I’ve said all I can (or should?) and am confident in the God whom you all know and who knows you. I trust God for the outcome…
Blessings on all of you here, love you dearly,
mark jr.
p.s. sorry that I’m so long winded…
May 6th, 2008 @ 11:17 pm
Hey guys
In reading Brians comment on how God’s power came into the place when Todd talked on Holiness,gives an idea or understanding as to what God intends more during this times of open heavens.
Yes there is no doubt God’s power is available but the question that needs to be asked is what for has it been made available.
While it is true that miracles and healings can be manifestations of God’s power,if we just stop there we would have stopped on a very shallow level.
My understanding is that the order should be reversed with more emphasis on essential truths with little emphasis on the later,meaning healings and miracles.
I do know that Todd is gifted in that area but that is why we have the rest of the body to help.
If a revival is only centered around healings and outward manisfestation without a driving sense of the more important then again there is a danger of taking it overboard.
In Christ
John
May 7th, 2008 @ 6:56 am
Phil,
Yeah…you’d have to talk to Rick about that one.
May 7th, 2008 @ 10:15 am
Good post John…. especially because immediately after Jesus told us to watch out for false prophets… he explained that prophecy, miricles & exorcism are NOT fruit that we should judge by.
again, i am NOT calling Todd a false prophet!!!!! But I am deeply concerned with all the endorsement from people based on the signs and wonders (people even stating they know his doctrine is bad but still respect the gifting)
——————————————————-
Matt 7
15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24″Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
May 7th, 2008 @ 11:03 am
In adding to i see it differently’s comments
In the parable of the wheat and tares even the servants dont recognize it until the fruit starts to appear(Matthew 13:26,27).
I guess in that sense the rains help to bring that about so that we can differentiate.
May 7th, 2008 @ 11:50 am
I am going to back off this topic for a while and go humbly before God about my opinions.
Certainly I firmly believe in all I said about scripture being the guild and I am really not open to the idea of seeking encounters with angels or attributing divine healing to them… but I want to make sure my critisism is not out of place or in the wrong spirit.
Check back in while.
May 7th, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
Phil, likewise I hope that my comments are not seen as criticism. It’s concern and love for the body of Christ that causes me to speak out.
I’ve seen enough of the meetings to assume that God is there. We are told that where two or three are gathered… when you get that many expectant believers together, you can count on it. It seems powerful. It could be a mixture of spirits. But….
Lets face it, some of Bentley’s teachings are weird. To those who say he does not claim to be a teacher, I would reply that he has posted 197 documents on his website under the title: Todd’s Teachings. And purportedly they are inspired by visitations with Jesus, Paul and others. He IS a teacher, and his teachings must be evaluated in the Berean manner in which we are commanded.
If that makes you uncomfortable, than your god is much more fragile than my God. The Holy Ghost does not leave when we are obedient to the scriptures.
I watched a sermon this morning where Bentley said (paraphrasing) “If we love God, he will visit us.” The reference was John 14:21. I was saddend by the omission of the pesky obedience qualifier.
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
Hey that’s a little thing. But it is reckless teaching. My concern is that weird will birth weird. Like reproduces like.
I would not judge a teacher solely by his students. But based on the teachings, I would EXPECT things like this:
“I have watched the revival on the web and am now a moderator in one of the chat rooms.
After 15 days, of participating, TWICE per day, I can tell you that I am now in the Kingdom of God. I wake up in the Glory of Jesus every day since last Thursday. My mind has been cleared of all past traumas including the ancient ones from before the creation (the fall). And much much more.
I only looked at the title and scanned the first message here, so I do not know what consensus u have reached so far.
I can only tell u what I did. I found out about it two saturdays ago and by the second day, I placed my destiny in God under the mantle of this MOVE OF GOD, and since then, I have reaped all the benefits of this Glory Of Jesus which comes to meet us at each meeting and is also present in cyberspace in the chat room.”
I cannot say if she was saved before this, assuming she was since if would be unwise to allow a new convert to moderate your chat room, but why is she only NOW in the Kingdom of God? Is there something beyond salvation and the bap. of the Holy Ghost that up to now Christians have not known about? A so-called “Glory Realm?” Is this “another gospel?”
Again she said:
“My mind has been cleared of all past traumas including the ancient ones from before the creation (the fall).”
Wow, what are these ancient ones from before the creation? Again, has something been hidden from believers up to this point? Are the current “great clould of witnesses” second class saints who didn’t have the benefit of these new teachings? Why did God withold this from my earthly Father while he was alive?
I could go on and on- about “my destiny in God under the mantle of this MOVE OF GOD” for instance, and I hope I’m not seen as belittling this person who obviouly has been touched in some way, but I am very concerned about the train wreck that is coming. Do “Moves of God” have mantles?
Speaking of mantels, which seems to be the buzzword of this MOVE OF GOD, I see the emphasis on claiming the mantles of others as both a very self-promoting and theologically suspect thing. As Fuscia Pickett once said down at Brownsville, in response to those who wanted her mantle (anointing) –I got mine from God, go get your own.
Am I making any sense?
May 7th, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
Hey folks,
One reason that I felt it would be good for this thread to go on was to provide a learning experience of how to process things before God without attacking each other or severely judging each other, but rather trying to present one’s prayerful views and then to prayerfully listen to others. How can we not grow through this process and become more committed to pray for each other and honor each other?
So, along with the good insights provided, there is good fruit that can come out of this — even if there is no consensus, and even if one “side” proves more right than the other.
And I appreciate all of you honoring my stand before God not to speak until He has given me something to say (rather than constantly trying to bring my views into the discussion).
Let us continue to pray for God’s best for all of us posting here and those in Lakeland and around the world, and let us keep our hearts wide open to the voice of the Father and the moving of the Spirit. And let us be grateful that the subject of revival has been revived among us!
May 8th, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
Bill,
Excellent point about the bereans. They were commended for searching the Scriptures to see if what Paul spoke was so. Why on earth does it seem that a multitude of Christians are willing to throw this principle out of the window.
I know Elijah handed a mantle down to Elisha, however according to Scripture I don’t know of any other such transfer. Perhaps we could say that about Paul and Timothy, I don’t know. However I believe I heard Steve Hill say after Brownsville something about people approaching him and wanting his anointing and he told them “go and live holy that is how I got it”. I personally believe we all have an anointing from the Holy One upon salvation, it is how we cultivate afterwards that accounts for the power: by being emptied of all that is evil, but also filling ourselves up, enriching ourselves with all that is good. A transfer of anointing reminds me of a fast food gospel. Wanting to walk in a level in God that you haven’t grown into. I would not reject receiving a spiritual gift by the laying on of hands because Paul talked about that, however I suppose that is differentiated from an actual anointing. I also like what you said about weird begets weird, I would have to agree with that.
With all this said and watching the revival on and off for weeks I have come to this conclusion: Either God has to without a doubt be healing with genuine signs and wonders or this is the “deluding influence that they might believe what is false” that the Bible says that God will send upon those who have not received the Truth. It must fall into one of these two categories because as far as I know Satan can not heal and do things like this on a large scale. I am hoping and believing that it falls into the first category and not the second.
-Daniel
May 8th, 2008 @ 6:54 pm
I said on my last post:
“….as far as I know Satan can not heal and do things like this on a large scale.”
The Holy Spirit quickened something to me, Satan could easily counterfeit the manifestations such as shaking etc… however there is no way that Satan can counterfeit the healing that is taking place. Jesus said if Satan cast out Satan his kingdom would be divided. This further shows some evidence to the thesis I stated in the last post.
-Daniel
May 8th, 2008 @ 9:07 pm
My inner jury is still out on this whole issue… it seems there is a need for some correction and balance in somethings to be sure, but I am not willing to dismiss it, I am not willing to go run after it either.
We all have convictions, opinions ect, and it is good to have them, I think too that it is a real healthy thing to look ourselves in the mirror from time to time and ask, “so what makes you so right??” I have just as much caution about a lack of that attitude in some of the people posting here as I do about what’s going on in Lakeland.
May 8th, 2008 @ 11:07 pm
Until recently I didn’t know that the Toronto Revival somehow started in Lakeland and that Randy Clark had a lot to do with it and somewhere Rodney Howard-Browne had something to do with it as well. How did I miss that? Maybe I heard it, but it didn’t really register? Oh well, I do know the Pensacola outpouring is connected with Toronto. The church Steve Hill (the evangelist at Brownsville) visitied in England that was in revival and set Steve ablaze had something to do with Toronto as well (I think) and I wouldn’t be amazed if the Argentine revival is somehow connected as well. So, it’s said that revival is contagious and I guess history proves this to be true even if you believe all those revivals weren’t real. It’s still neat and phenomenal… either way!!
Dr. Brown – Feel free to correct me on this if I got the revival facts wrong. I know you definitely know more about these revivals and could have articulated it better too.
Sorry for the simplicity of the statement I am about to make, but I am thinking if they are all connected (although they all seem to have had a different emphasis) and Randy Clark, and Steve Hill, and John Kilpatrick, and Claudio Freidzon were already in Lakeland and gave their approval (and Todd mentioned that he was in some revival somewhere in the past and now he is the leader in one) then I am thinking that the possibility that this revival is a false move of God is very small.
Again, I know that this argument doesn’t carry a lot of weight and I am not trying to beat a dead horse, but I figured that since we are all learning here (and I just recently learned about some of these connections) and since it’s fresh on my mind I thought it’s worth mentioning.
May 9th, 2008 @ 4:16 pm
I think one of the challenges with the endorsements, is that we are assuming that the leaders who have endorsed Mr. Bentley were aware of his extra-Biblical teachings prior to their endorsement of his ministry.
I remember hearing good things about Mr. Bentley at the beginning of his ministry and I’m sure others did as well. However, somewhere in the years since the beginning of his ministry his teachings have veered outside the realm of sound Biblical theology and therein lies the problem. I know, for a fact, that a number of ministers who have endorsed him were not aware of these extra-Biblical teachings prior to their endorsement of him. (Thanks to people who are speaking up in their areas of friendship and influence, leaders are now becoming aware that something is not as it should be. And hopefully these leaders will allow the Lord to work through them to help Mr Bentley get his ministry on sound Biblical footing.) Time will tell…but, as I said previously, ministers are busy people and in the middle of all of their obligations, it’s hard enough for a local Pastor to stay on top of everything, how much harder must it be for a national leader to stay on top of how sound another ministers teachings may or may not be? No, I think with all of the media attention, this just moved so fast and ministers listened to other ministers rather than taking time to check out his teachings for themselves. National leaders, are, after all, human beings like the rest of us…they’re not omnipotent
Hoping and praying for the best…but taking a few days off of these forums…God Bless
(And I do want to see a pure move of God just as much as anyone else, but the mixture with his teachings is just something that needs addressing by someone who can gain his ear, in the near future, I hope
May 10th, 2008 @ 4:13 am
Wow! I finally just read that article by Derek Prince that Lisa posted back on April 26th. It was really good, very informative. I just wanted to say that if anyone hasn’t read it yet, I think it is very much worthwhile for you to do so:
http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm
Also, I have heard of witchdoctors and shamans healing people. My husband also knows personally a co-worker, a Native (Canadian Indian or First Nations person), who calls himself a Native Healer. He apparently heals people by some power, which is not the Holy Spirit, or at all related to Jesus whatsoever. He says he has a gift to remove the “bad energy” or something. However, I believe in many of these types of cases the healing is often temporary, and the affliction or ailment later returns. So, as far as I know – yes, it is possible for the devil to heal people, at least for a time. Probably so that he can lead them further into some kind of bondage or deception, I guess.
May 10th, 2008 @ 4:16 am
Dr. Brown,
I do respect your stance on not commenting unless the Lord leads.
However, I was wondering if you would be willing to address the subject of healing angels. Have you ever heard of this before? Do you think this concept is biblical?
Thank you,
Faith
May 10th, 2008 @ 4:19 pm
I would like to recommend a book to everyone, it is called:
“Whatever happened to the Power of God”
subtitled: “Is the Charismatic Church Slain in the Spirit or Down for the Count?”
Written by: Michael L. Brown
I was reading over some chapters this morning and it really began ministering to me, it almost felt like the first time I read it all over again. I must admit the 1st Chapter is scary, in light of what is going on.
May 10th, 2008 @ 9:53 pm
In my opinion, the fact that Steve Hill and John Kilpatrick were at the Lakeland revival and gave their approval doesn’t mean that they also approve or disapprove of Todd’s teaching. I’m sure if it would be a matter of “Is Jesus the Son of God?” or “Is Jesus really the only way?” then it would be a different story. Steve Hill and John Kilpatrick might not know about most of Todd’s teaching, maybe they don’t care, personally I think it’s does not matter. Anyone who has serious concerns should consider contacting them directly. Maybe you will get some helpful advice on top of it if you email their ministries.
May 11th, 2008 @ 10:04 am
Could someone please explain the impartation of anointing. Also can a Christian receive many anointings throughout his Christian walk or is there just one anointing given to every believer upon salvation? I was always under the impression that we had an initial anointing given to us upon salvation. Would it be better terminology to say I have received the impartation of some gift or of God’s Fire rather than anointing. The reason I am asking is because I just read an article online that was supposed to be a quote from Smith Wigglesworth. In the article he states that he had received many anointings throughout his life, even prior to experiencing the baptism in the Holy Spirit. If anyone has any insight on this please share.
May 11th, 2008 @ 12:07 pm
Faith,
In response to your question about angels bringing healing, from a biblical standpoint, here are some thoughts:
1) At certain times in the Word, angels smote people, killed people, and put plagues on people (see, e.g., Acts 12:23; Isa 37:36; Rev 16). So, if there could be angels that bring plague and death, there could easily be angels that bring healing and life.
2) Some interpreters attribute the promise of healing in Exod 23:25-26 to the work of the angelic messenger that accompanied Israel according to Exod 23:20-23.
3) Of course, some make reference to the angelic stirring of the waters at Bethesda in John 5, but as is commonly known, there are some textual questions there.
4) The bottom line is that, according to Heb 1:14, angels are “ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation,” so they may be used by God to bring us various kinds of blessings, etc.
I did a whole teaching about twenty years ago on Angels, Demons, and Deliverance, and it can be purchased inexpensively on one CD (for MP3 players or computers) with about 12 hours of teaching. That being said, I haven’t had the time to listen to much of the preaching or teaching from Lakeland because of other ministry commitments — in fact, right now, I’m in London getting ready for two debates with my friend Rabbi Shmuley — and I don’t know how my short comments, above, interface with Todd’s teaching. Of course, I do pray regularly for God’s best to come out of Lakeland and for the Lord to use Todd for His highest and best purposes.
May 11th, 2008 @ 3:43 pm
Hey guys
Here are a few insights that might be helpful.
In analyzing things from a broader perspective and also having been an integral part of one of the movements that is involved with this outpouring (as termed).
Firstly for God to choose some body to lead an outpouring, He has to have laid the foundations in them before He could use them to lead from the front. This is different from being touched by the outpouring.
We all know that the leaders in Brownsville didn’t just get up one day and start preaching on repentance and Holiness. It was their lifestyle before God blessed it with His power and magnified it to minister to many.
So in that context I can say that these ministries have solid foundations when it comes to healing and miracles (as I was part of one for a period of time). As a matter of fact the ministry I was a part of started preaching on healings almost every week for a year or more till now before this started to happen.
So it wasn’t a surprise when healings broke out.
Now if we term these happenings as another healing renewal to the body then it could be fine. So in that context we might not see what we are expecting for in the sense of repentance, Holiness and other things that much. Although there has been mention of other truths it would be clear by now that the main focus is on signs and miracles. Also personally I don’t think they are equipped to bring other essential truths to the body.
Now there may be issues and questions on what these meetings have been made equivalent too. Also time will only tell to the course and the direction this would take.
However it could just be that God is restoring the ministry of healings and miracles to the body of Christ in general.
I do have my reservations though on these meetings till now which cannot be discussed in this forum.
In Christ
John
May 11th, 2008 @ 6:41 pm
Lisa,
We will gladly take care of it, deleting your post and my follow up comment. Marcus, our devoted editor, will get it done.
No problem at all on this end!
May 11th, 2008 @ 6:55 pm
Dr. Brown,
He could probably delete my post from today as well, otherwise it will be quite non-sensical to future readers
Would you be willing to also address an issue that someone brought up earlier, on the subject of angels and healing from a Biblical perspective? Byron mentioned, early on in this forum, that he had heard Mr. bentley state that angels were entering people and healing them. (Since the video to these services are available and many posted on Mr. Bentley’s site, I’m sure Byron could backtrack to the date so you could view it for verification.) Anyway, is there any scriptural teaching that unfallen angels ever enter people?
May 11th, 2008 @ 7:04 pm
Dr Brown
I was wondering if my earlier post today mentioning me being a part of one of those ministries was okay.I thought mentioning that would credibility and perspective to what i was saying.
Do you have any comments on that and also on the post?
John
May 11th, 2008 @ 9:22 pm
John,
No problem on this end.
May 11th, 2008 @ 9:52 pm
Thanks Dr Brown
It helped me discern the cause of my uneasiness on that!!
May 11th, 2008 @ 11:19 pm
Well you must admit that kneeing a guy in the stomach is unusual
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX9xdw6aT9c&feature=related
see end of clip
Bentley patting his knee three times before the laying on of the knee speaks volumes.
May 11th, 2008 @ 11:28 pm
“Bentley patting his knee three times before the laying on of the knee speaks volumes.”
Yeah. Almost as weird as spitting in the dirt and making clay and rubbing it in someones eyes or spitting on someone’s eyes. ALMOST.
May 11th, 2008 @ 11:32 pm
All requests for editing and/or deleting of posts have been taken care of.
Marcus French
Line of Fire Moderator
May 12th, 2008 @ 1:09 am
marcus,
can you delete your last post
just messing!
May 12th, 2008 @ 8:33 am
Brian,
That response was so predictable I almost posted it myself.
You should know that I don’t even have trouble with Smith Wigglesworth picking up a dead person and throwing them against a wall. This is still taught in ministry schools as the “al dente” technique.
I still stink the knee thing is unusual. But it wasn’t the knee that gave me pause. I still wonder about his patting his knee three times. I have trouble when the Holy Ghost appears to be treated as an “it,” as if He is some king of force we can throw around. If you can point to some sort of post-pentecost biblical precedence I would really like to hear about it.
May 12th, 2008 @ 8:56 am
s/b I still think the knee thing….
May 12th, 2008 @ 10:29 am
s/b “as if he is some KIND of force.”
my speeling stinks
May 12th, 2008 @ 10:59 am
I live an hour away from Baton Rouge and we catch Son Life Radio. That is Jimmy Swaggart’s radio station. They have a daily talk show and this morning they slammed the Lakeland Revival. They said it was demonic and that Todd Bentley was possessed by a demon. Obviously I do not agree with them on this, however the reason for me posting this was to share what some other Pentecostal ministries are saying about Lakeland.
-Daniel
May 12th, 2008 @ 12:32 pm
“That is Jimmy Swaggart’s radio station. They have a daily talk show and this morning they slammed the Lakeland Revival.”
And people are still listening to Jimmy Swaggart have an opinion about anything others in the Body of Christ are doing?
I’m sorry, I know we’re supposed to show love and restore brothers, but that’s a guy who resisted being accountable about his actions several times. I hardly think his opinion or his ministry’s opinion is worth taking THAT seriously on such matters as this.
Let ‘em talk. Fruit will speak for itself.
I’ve been following this thread, and I have a couple of observations:
1) I have not seen or heard from and reading elsewhere and watching footage, etc, and NOT noticed anyone who’s been to the revival come back criticizing it. Maybe I haven’t been looking hard enough.
2)The areas (online obviously) where it IS getting slammed, are from people who admittedly haven’t attended for themselves. I realize watching footage is one thing, but the testimonies I keep hearing from people are from what God did to them AT the Lakeland meetings.
Not necessarily an important factor, but one worth noticing.
3)Who is the guy that writes this ‘supernaturalblogger” that keeps getting referenced, and why is his opinion important? I mean, i write a blog and host a podcast with another missionary, and we wouldn’t deem ourselves experts on subjects, as much as a couple of whippersnappers gifted with a teaching ability, and with opinions to express. I’m just curious when one goes from being an opinion holder with a keyboard to an expert on any matters affecting the Body of Christ at large.
I am not asking antagonistically and hope my heart can somehow come across as intended when i ask–curiosity.
Blessings and fire on your heads
Steve
May 12th, 2008 @ 1:03 pm
Steve said:
“And people are still listening to Jimmy Swaggart have an opinion about anything others in the Body of Christ are doing?”
Steve,
I did say in that post that I did not agree with them. I do listen occasionally to that station because sometimes they do discuss interesting topics. Why would you disregard an opinion of someone who objectively listens to Jimmy Swaggart’s radio station?
-Daniel
May 12th, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
Steve,
Just for clarification, I believe the radio show in question is hosted by others in the Swaggart family. I’ve been on their show and was blessed by the strong moral stands they took on some key issues, but I have no clue about other things they teach and preach and believe. Needless to say, I am surprised (big understatement!) by the comments Daniel posted, assuming they were passed on accurately. I can’t imagine how such things could be spoken about a brother in the Lord who is calling people to Jesus.
In any case, I would caution you about judging Jimmy Swaggart today because of his past moral failings, just as you are rightly disturbed over severe judgments being made against Todd.
May 12th, 2008 @ 1:39 pm
Just to clarify, the radio show did say: “It is very likely that what is going on is demonic and it is likely that Todd is demon possessed.” They did not state emphatically that he was possessed. The only reason I even mentioned it is because this thread is a discussion on spiritually discerning the Lakeland Revival and I thought it would be good to hear what other ministries were speaking out about this. I just want to state again, that I don’t think that Todd Bentley is possessed.
thanks,
Daniel
May 12th, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
Daniel
I DID realize from your post you were not agreeing with the statements made on that radio show. I was more or less expressing my surprise, and pointing out where that ministry comes from and what comes to mind when i hear that name. I was not disregarding *your* opinion (or someone’s who would listen to them). I merely ask what the criteria is for taking someone’s opinion–which is just that–an opinion–as expert fact. I believe this same type of question got asked earlier in this thread by Joshua, in a different context.
I apologize for the confusion and how I came across, and see that my comments might not have been as necessary as I thought. I was reacting out of surprise to hear the quote made by that radio show.
Dr Brown
I appreciate the clarification, and I apologize to anyone who read what I said if I sounded like I was speaking in the same spirit as what I was speaking against (judgmentalism). My bad.
Steve
May 12th, 2008 @ 6:24 pm
Ok, I went down to Lakeland this weekend and just got back this morning. I’ve been watching the meetings on the net for weeks, reading these blogs, discussing my concerns with Dr. Brown and others while trying to make the wisest judgment about Todd and this move as possible. I was able to attend three meetings and here’s what I came away with. (sorry if this gets long)
First of all, I would like to say that I think the assessment from the Swaggart station is the most ridiculous claim I’ve heard yet. Swaggart was my mom’s favorite preacher when I was a kid. I saw him fall, I saw him get restored, and I have no problem with him today, but that assessment from someone on his station is absurd. Jesus Christ was worshipped, adored, and exalted in every meeting. I don’t see how a demon in hell could stand to come near these meetings, unless the people attending brought a few in with them, which definitely happened. They began to manifest and they got cast out. They definitely didn’t heal anyone!
I rejoiced in the 100+ that responded to Todd’s altar call Friday night and nearly the same number of people on Sat night to give their lives to Jesus. Was his altar call as strong as mine would have been concerning sin and repentance? No, but those who responded were led away to meet with a group of pastors who further instructed them and I pray that these issues were dealt with then.
I loved the worship each night. Roy did a great job of ushering in the presence of the Lord.
Todd’s definitely not unaware of all the criticism he’s receiving as he mentioned much of it on Sat night. He preached what I thought to be a great message Sat night on the kingdom of heaven from Mark 1 and Matt 6, and shared a brief testimony of T.L. Osborn’s healing ministry. It really challenged me to be more desirous to see a demonstration of the gospel following the preaching of the gospel. I do believe that we have too much Word being preached without any accompanying signs, but that doesn’t mean that we back down on the preaching of the Word. We just need to learn to incorporate demonstration; especially if we’re going to preach the kingdom.
I rejoiced in the hundreds of healings that I witnessed. It was awesome to see the young and old being set free from sickness, disease, and pain. If Todd’s the antichrist or a false prophet then he’s doing a horrible job of leading people away from Jesus in these meetings. From what I can tell, Todd is a man who loves the Lord, yet has some doctrinal issues. I didn’t hear any heresy preached nor did I see Todd exalting himself. He kept mentioning how the people were getting healed in the crowd without him even touching them, and kept encouraging others to go out and preach the gospel and heal the sick, not to bring the sick to him for healing. If he did encourage others to come, it was to “come get some” of the fire and take it back with you.
Todd has calmed down on all the angel talk from what I’ve seen the past three weeks. I was blessed to see Dr. Brown state “So, if there could be angels that bring plague and death, there could easily be angels that bring healing and life.” I’ve been leaning towards this way of thinking for several weeks now with all the angel talk going around but didn’t want to come out and say it. I’m not trying to diminish the work of the Holy Spirit and I’m not trying to build doctrine on “healing angels,” but I don’t want to deny the supernatural work of angelic beings in our meetings. If I were to preach or teach on healing I would attribute it to the work of the Holy Spirit, not angels, but I also wouldn’t deny the fact that the Lord can use an angel to bring healing.
Now as far as the angel stepping into someone’s body and healing them comment is concerned, I have to ask these questions. Did Todd actually see that happen? Did it actually happen? Is it impossible for it to happen? Would it be wrong for it to happen? Is Todd trying to make a doctrine out of this, or was this a onetime passing comment only? Did Todd see a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and attribute it to an angel? I don’t know the answer to all these questions and I’m not as concerned about Todd saying what he said as others are. If he continually said this and began to attribute the healings that are taking place in his meetings to angels then I would be concerned, but like I said earlier, he actually has seemed to have calmed on the angel talk and began to talk more about Jesus and the Holy Spirit moving in his meetings than angels.
Now then, I would like to discuss the “revival” aspect of these meetings. I really like what John said: “Now if we term these happenings as another healing renewal to the body then it could be fine. So in that context we might not see what we are expecting for in the sense of repentance, Holiness and other things that much” and “However it could just be that God is restoring the ministry of healings and miracles to the body of Christ in general.” To me revival is exactly what Dr. Brown says it is, “a time of divine, supernatural visitation.” God’s Holy presence bringing conviction of sin, which brings repentance, which brings changed lives. I’ve heard several reports from others that have visited the meetings and the general consensus is that this aspect of the meetings isn’t there. I have heard some say that His presence was there in a mighty way, as Brian said: “the power and presence of God came into the building in a way I had never experienced it before, and I was at Brownsville for three years. I actually turned to the person sitting beside me and said ‘This is the raw power of God’. God’s holiness was present and people all over the building began to travail just like happened in many of the meetings at Brownsville. Todd began to talk about the Church repenting from its wickedness and repentance in general and it was a very somber and sobering time.” Well, this didn’t happen when I was there nor did it happen when several other people I know visited the meetings. There is something very key in what Brian said, “Todd began to talk about the Church repenting from its wickedness and repentance in general and it was a very somber and sobering time.” Sin was rarely mentioned in the meetings that I was in, and that “raw power of God” just wasn’t there.
I have to be honest, the power and presence of God is what I was looking for in Lakeland, but I didn’t find it there. Don’t get me wrong, He was there in a mighty way, and I’m not regretting driving down and spending three days in some awesome healing meetings, but He wasn’t there in the way that I desired Him to be, nor was He there in the way that I know that He desired to be. So, can I call this “revival?” I don’t think so, not by the definition that I gave above. And I don’t think that it will be until we see more of “the Church repenting from its wickedness and repentance in general.”
Could it be “that God is restoring the ministry of healings and miracles to the body of Christ in general” through these meetings? Most certainly! Am I despising what God is doing in Lakeland? Not at all! I am rejoicing in what the Lord is doing there. I am thankful that I got to go and be a part of it, and I believe that this is only the beginning of what God has in store for us in the coming days. One thing I do know, “there’s got to be more.”
May 13th, 2008 @ 9:11 am
I just want to comment on the excellence of the following questions:
“Now as far as the angel stepping into someone’s body and healing them comment is concerned, I have to ask these questions. Did Todd actually see that happen? Did it actually happen? Is it impossible for it to happen? Would it be wrong for it to happen? Is Todd trying to make a doctrine out of this, or was this a onetime passing comment only? Did Todd see a manifestation of the Holy Spirit and attribute it to an angel?”
May 13th, 2008 @ 10:51 am
I have a question. What is revival? Dr. Brown had listed his guidelines for evaluating a spiritual movement, but is a spiritual movement the same as revival? Does anybody have an established definition of revival for me?
May 13th, 2008 @ 11:21 am
Bianka,
Ravenhill on Revival
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6915
May 13th, 2008 @ 11:27 am
Or you can listen to this young fella, I think his name is Brown or something like that.
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=453
May 13th, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
Certainly there are times when God touches the masses… however, this is the constant goal. Make disciples of the nations is the constant strive. And even in the midst of revival, we all have our own problems and there are sin issues and conflict issues to be dealt with. So yeah, glorify God and thank him for touching lives during “revivals”… but also be sure to glorify God and thank him for touching lives at all times.
Furthermore, be humble and open to correction in the “non-revival” periods & also be humble and open to correction in the times of outpouring.
Make sure we are always about God, his word & his people… not about a movement.
May 13th, 2008 @ 7:05 pm
Bianka,
To me revival is exactly what Dr. Brown says it is, “a time of divine, supernatural visitation.”
May 13th, 2008 @ 7:54 pm
Here’s the full definition of revival that I’ve been using for the last decade or so:
Revival is a season of unusual divine visitation resulting in deep repentance, supernatural renewal, and sweeping reformation in the Church, along with the radical conversion of sinners in the world, often producing moral, social, and even economic change in the local or national communities.
Here’s also a great statement from Charles Finney on revival:
[A revival] presupposes that the Church is sunk down in a backslidden state, and a revival consists in the return of the Church from her backslidings, and in the conversion of sinners. 1. A revival always includes conviction of sin on the part of the Church. Backslidden professors cannot wake up and begin right away in the service of God, without deep searchings of heart. The fountains of sin need to be broken up. In a true revival, Christians are always brought under such conviction; they see their sins in such a light that often they find it impossible to maintain a hope of their acceptance with God. It does not always go that extent, but there are always, in a genuine revival, deep convictions of sin, and often cases of abandoning all hope. 2. Backslidden Christians will be brought to repentance. A revival is nothing else than a new beginning of obedience to God. Just as in the case of a converted sinner, the first step is a deep repentance, a breaking down of heart, a getting down into the dust before God, with deep humility, and a forsaking of sin. 3. Christians will have their faith renewed. While they are in a backslidden state they are blind to the state of sinners. Their hearts as hard as marble. The truths of the Bible appear as a dream. They admit it to be all true; their conscience and their judgment assent to it; but their faith does not see it standing out in bold relief, in all the burning realities of eternity. But when they enter into a revival, they no longer see “men as trees, walking,” but they see things in that strong light which will renew the love of God in their hearts. . . . 4. A revival breaks the power of the world and of sin over Christians. It brings them to such vantage-ground that they get a fresh impulse towards heaven; they have a new foretaste of heaven, and new desires after union with God; thus the charm of the world is broken, and the power of sin overcome. 5. When the churches are thus awakened and reformed, the reformation and salvation of sinners will follow. . . The worst of human beings are softened and reclaimed, and made to appear as lovely specimens of the beauty of holiness.
May 14th, 2008 @ 12:41 am
I know my comments yesterday and the comment I am about to post tonight is going to make it seem like I am stirring up trouble in the forum, however please understand that is not my intentions at all, I simply want to be objective looking at this from both sides and above all I want TRUTH. I will again post this with the disclaimer that I do not think Todd is: Possessed, A False Prophet, Evil or anything other than what he claims to be.
A contact in Lakeland told me that Todd spoke the following words last night:
“Tonight I’m not a man, because , I’m under the Anointing”
-I want to state that I did not hear these words myself, this information was told to me from another source and I can not prove the validity of it.
-I want to ask if anyone can prove or confirm that he did indeed say this
-Also does anyone think if this statement was made by Todd, is he leaning towards thinking he is “God” under the anointing.(What was the context?)
-That is basically all of my comments and questions about this until someone can confirm that this statement was indeed spoken
May 14th, 2008 @ 3:32 am
This is a first-hand testimony of 8-years of experience with Todd Bentley and ministries effected by him. I’m posting this not in an effort to malign Todd (as I do pray for him and what he’s involved in with care), but to give another first-hand testimony as are already on this blog that can also weigh in on the situation at hand.
Also, I have not witnessed this ‘revival’ first-hand, so neither am I posting this to make a statement on what I think of it. A brother we know has experienced this first-hand and then some (and has consequently taken a clear position), so this is why I post his testimony. He is a Spirit-filled pastor that we know from the UK who has been following Todd Bentley’s ministry closely for some years and wrote to our ministry about what he himself has observed since the year 2000:
“My difficulty with Todd Bentley’s ministry is not whether he has recently covered himself with tattoos or pierced himself silly, but the SOURCE of his power. He keeps changing his position on this. Sometimes he says it’s the Holy Spirit and a lot of the time it’s his angels…
Many have said that they believe that Florida is a ‘mixture’. Personally, I do not believe ‘mixture’ is involved. I believe these deceiving spirits have hi-jacked Todd’s ministry… Either the healings are of God or they are not. Which is it?
People can be healed in spiritualist churches. I have witnessed, close-up, first hand, people being instantly healed by mediums and faith healers. I have also seen people healed by the power of the Holy Spirit. To begin with there is no discernible difference. However the counterfeit healings soon begin to either go wrong or something far worse comes upon the person.
When God heals someone – He adds ‘no sorrow.’
I know Todd started off OK – I was there in his early meetings…In September 2000 I stood in front of Todd and gave him the warning that God gave me for him. “Beware, the leaven of the Pharisees, lest an angelic leaven enters your ministry.”
One month later, according to Todd’s own account, at a meeting in Grants Pass Oregon, Cal Pierce walked in with Branham’s ‘Healing Revival’ angel in tow, Todd saw and accepted this spirit without reservation. His ‘angels’ have been with him ever since.
I have written to Todd on numerous occasions and reminded him of God’s warning, alas to no avail.
When Todd Bentley conducted a healing meeting in a large charismatic church here in England in 2005, he laid hands on many people who were apparently healed. I know of at least one instance where a pastor’s wife with cancer was prayed for by Todd. Soon afterwards she heard voices in her head telling her to ‘drown herself just like her father did’. The poor woman ended up in a mental hospital, I believe she still has the cancer.
No-one is following up or keeping records of what happens to people who have hands laid on them by Todd or others like him.
I have kept records as far as I can, concerning this particular church. Over a relatively short period, there has been a dramatic increase in premature deaths, cancers, marriage break-ups, sickness and disease amongst the congregation where the leadership have allowed this type of ministry into their church. Many people left the church in fear.
These are the consequences of following this type of ‘ministry’ which no-one is either aware of, or wants to address.
I know, I have visited the people in hospital and attended one of the funerals…”
May 14th, 2008 @ 8:21 am
Daniel C,
If by “last night” you meant May 12th, I did not hear this on the archive video. Check for yourself and report back to the class.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/410187
Of note, there appears to be a Doris sighting at 02:47:25 and again at 03:08:49. Doris being the prayer cloth lady from Pensacola. Perhaps someone else can confirm this bit of revival trivium.
May 14th, 2008 @ 1:41 pm
Are you referring to Doris Bourque, who was the administrator at BRSM from it’s inception and onward for years? (If so, she’s sooo much more than just a nice cloth lady
Anyway, I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of people have been curious and gone down there to check it out.
May 14th, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Just curious??? I understand why they drape the cloths over women wearing skirts and such, but why do they put the cloths on men wearing jeans?? LOL any input would be nice. I figured they use it as a blanket in case they get cold on the floor.
Are we even talking about the same kind of cloths???
-Daniel
May 14th, 2008 @ 3:18 pm
Don’t know her last name, Lisa, but it looked like the Doris from Brownsville, who always seemed to be running around with cloths, on stage at Lakeland with cloths in hand.
Daniel C: good question. Not one I’ll lose sleep over.
May 14th, 2008 @ 8:04 pm
Hey folks,
On a serious note, I know people are raising sincere questions here about Lakeland, and I know there are real concerns about certain things being taught (or not taught), but I want to urge each of you to be very careful before you attribute apparent miracles that are being performed in Jesus’ name to demonic powers.
Dr. Brown
May 14th, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
He y’all. I’m curious if anyone here is aware of the ‘Kundalini Awakening’ in Hinduism? It has striking parallels to what has been entering into the Church scene for the past 15 years or so.
Prayerfully consider these things:
In 1995 researcher Robert Walker wrote:
“Few Christians realise that for thousands of years gurus have operated with gifts of healing, miracles, gifts of knowledge, and intense displays of spiritual consciousness as they stretch out and connect with a cosmic power which, though demonic in origin, is very real. The meetings which mystic Hindu gurus hold are called ‘Darshan’. At these meetings devotees go forward to receive spiritual experience from a touch by the open palm of the hand, often to the forehead, by the guru in what is known as the Shakti Pat or divine touch. The raising of the spiritual experience is called raising Kundalini… After a period when the devotee has reached a certain spiritual elevation they begin to shake, jerk, or hop or squirm uncontrollably, sometimes breaking into uncontrolled animal noises or laughter as they reach an ecstatic high. These manifestations are called ‘Kriyas’. Devotees sometimes roar like lions and show all kinds of physical signs during this period. Often devotees move on to higher states of spiritual consciousness and become inert physically and appear to slip into an unconsciousness when they lose sense of what is happening around them. This state is called ’samadhi’ and it leads to a deeper spiritual experience.” (www.pastornet.net.au/response/articles/107.htm)
The guru Shri Yoganandji Maharaja wrote:
“When Your body begins trembling, hair stands on roots, you laugh or begin to weep without your wishing, your tongue begins to utter deformed sounds, you are filled with fear or see frightening visions… the Kundalini Shakti has become active.” This was in an article entitled: ‘Devatma Shakti (Kundalini): Divine Power’ by Swami Vishnu Tirtha (www.cit-sakti.com/kundalini/kundalini-manifestations.htm)
In addition to that, in China there is a popular Kundalini-type movement called ‘Qigong’. When Yan Xin, a Chinese Qigong spiritual Master, gave a talk to a crowd in San Francisco in 1991, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that many in the crowd began to experience what Yan called “spontaneous movements”. He told his audience, “Those who are sensitive might start having some strong physical sensations – or start laughing or crying. Don’t worry. This is quite normal.”
Now, brothers and sisters, I’m NOT saying this is what’s happened; BUT, is it possible that an “alien” spirit somehow invaded the church in the early 1990s – and then continued to mutate and adapt to the church environment? I mean, isn’t it virtually identical to what we have seen in the church over the last 15 years or so? An empowered leader touching people on the head and all these weird manifestations occurring? Could it be the same spirit? The Word says, “Beloved, DO NOT believe every spirit, but TEST the spirits to see whether they are from God…” (1Jn 4:1).
Dr. Brown just posted regarding taking caution before attributing apparent miracles that are being performed in Jesus’ name to demonic powers. This caution is good and prudent and with that caution in mind we should certainly TEST these spirits as to what they are and from where they come. What is the outcome and result of these miracles being performed? Good quesitons to ask, good things to pray about.
Once again, I say all of this with a spirit of love and concern for everyone involved. In fact, last night, our fellowship had a prayer-meeting and we brought Todd and everyone involved before the Lord, that He might glorify His name in whatever happens and that the truth of this all would be made known. Plus, we’re Spirit-filled Christians and believe strongly in the gifts and power of the Spirit for today.
Please compare the below account from the CHURCH with the ‘Kundalini’ manifestations above. One of our dear readers sent this to us some years ago – but it is very typical of what many have experienced:
“I inadvertently got prayed over by some people who had received “The Toronto Blessing”. I ended up that night with uncontrollable flopping and shaking of my limbs, being drunk in spirit and uncontrollable laughter. At the time it felt right. But later as time went on, these manifestations came at inopportune times and were uncontrollable. My arms and legs would shake when trying to pray for people or when just sitting in church. My legs would give out and I would have to catch my balance just to stand upright while worshipping. It soon became clear to me that this was not the Holy Spirit and so I repented of allowing myself to receive this spirit and asked God to take it away from me. Praise Him, He did!”
Now there is no doubt that a Hindu Guru would describe the above as a ‘Kundalini Awakening’. It is virtually identical in every respect. And yet we in the church called it a Blessing from God! And, SEEMINGLY, this same anointing continues to spread via the “impartations” in Florida.
Where is the necessary EMPHASIS on repentance and holiness that follows a TRUE revival? It SEEMS to be absent…
Is this really an alien spirit masquerading as an “angel of light”? Please prayerfully consider these things and take great and prayerful caution before you consider getting involved in what is happening.
Blessings & Love to you all,
Glenn
May 14th, 2008 @ 11:45 pm
Just curious, Glenn, did you graduate from either BRSM or FIRE and were you a part of the revival at Brownsville (where repentance was most definitely preached
I’m wondering because both items that you posted are things that I had read either on Andrew Strom’s forum site (before I realized people were sooo anti-revival there, and I stopped reading their posts) or on the Charisma site where there is also alot of anti-revival sentiment that is being expressed with a good deal of finger pointing and criticism.
From what I’ve observed on the internet, there seem to be three prominent stances that people seem to be taking re: Lakeland…1) If it’s moving, it’s got to be God… 2) If it’s moving, it can’t be God, (this is often mixed with finger pointing at Toronto and Brownsville, Benny Hinn, Pastor Kilpatrick, etc…and I think these people need to take some time and repent of their critical spirit because there is no way God can be pleased with that sort of nonsense.) 3) Something’s happening, there is much to be concerned about with some of the things Todd Bentley has said and teaches…(prayerfully, what’s going on God, I don’t want to miss You and I don’t want to open myself up to anything that is not of You.)
Bottom line is this…God still moves in power and touches, blesses and heals His people (signs following the preaching of the Gospel), the devil will imitate…but just because the devil imitates, that in no way negates the fact that God still moves in power here on this earth and in the lives of people…that’s why it is so very important to make sure that the teaching of the person you are listening to is scriptural.
May 15th, 2008 @ 12:40 am
I just read this…looks like J. Lee Grady (Charisma Editor) has decided to speak out a bit concering Mr. Bentley and Lakeland, he posted this today on the Charisma site:
Honest Questions About the Lakeland Revival
I support any holy outbreak of revival fervor. But let’s be careful to guard ourselves from pride and error.
By J. Lee Grady
God is stirring deep spiritual passion in the hearts of the thousands of people who have traveled to Florida during the last month to experience the Lakeland Healing Revival. Since these meetings began in a 700-seat church on April 2, the crowd has moved four times to bigger venues, the fervor has intensified and the news has spread worldwide—thanks to God TV and online broadcasting.
Within a few weeks, the bandwagon effect was in full swing. It’s safe to say that no outbreak of Pentecostalism in history has gained so much international exposure so quickly as these meetings have.
I’m a cheerleader for the charismatic movement, so I rejoiced when I heard the news about revivalist Todd Bentley’s extended visit to Ignited Church. It was thrilling to hear the reports of miracles and to watch the crowd grow until a stadium was required to hold everyone.
When I visited a service on April 15, I was blessed by Heather Clark’s music and the audience’s exuberant worship. And I laughed with everyone else as I watched Bentley shout his trademarked “Bam! Bam! Bam!” as he prayed for the sick and flailed his tattooed arms over the crowd. Hey, Jesus didn’t pray for people according to the Pharisees’ rulebook, so I’m open to unconventional methods.
But I would be dishonest if I told you that I wholeheartedly embraced what I saw in Lakeland. Something disturbed me, but I kept my mouth shut for three weeks while I prayed, got counsel from respected ministry leaders and searched my heart to make sure I was not harboring a religious spirit. The last thing we need today is more mean-spirited heresy hunters blasting other Christians.
I am not a heresy hunter, and I support what is happening in Lakeland because I know God uses imperfect people (like me and you) to reach others for Jesus. At the same time, I believe my questions are honest and my concerns are real.
My motive is not to criticize Bentley or the pastor who is sponsoring these meetings, Stephen Strader. In September 2002 Charisma featured a seven-page article about Bentley’s amazing conversion from drug addiction. I believe Bentley is a sincere brother who wants people to encounter God’s presence and power. No doubt this 32-year-old evangelist needs our prayers now more than ever, especially since he has become the focus of international media attention.
But as the noise from Lakeland grows louder and its influence spreads, I’m issuing some words of warning that apply to all of us, not just the folks in Lakeland. I hope everyone understands that these cautions are offered in love:
1. Beware of strange fire. The name of Jesus is being lifted up in the Lakeland revival, and three people came to the altar for salvation the night I attended. Larger numbers have come to the front of the auditorium to find Christ every night since then.
Yet I fear another message is also being preached subtly in Lakeland—a message that cult-watchers would describe as a spiritual counterfeit. Bentley is one of several charismatic ministers who have emphasized angels in the last several years. He has taught about angels who bring financial breakthroughs or revelations, and he sometimes refers to an angel named Emma who supposedly played a role in initiating a prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. Bentley describes Emma as a woman in a flowing white dress who floats a few feet off the floor.
All of us who believe the Bible know that angels are real, and that they work on our behalf to protect us and minister to us. But the apostle Paul, who had encounters with angels himself, issued stern warnings to the Corinthians, the Galatians and the Colossians about angels who preach another gospel or that demand attention. In Colossae, believers were so enamored with angels they had seen in visions that they became “inflated without cause” by spiritual pride (Col. 2:18, NASB). Paul was adamant that preoccupation with angels can lead to serious deception.
We need to tread carefully here! We have no business teaching God’s people to commune with angels or to seek revelations from them. And if any revival movement—no matter how exciting or passionate—mixes the gospel of Jesus with this strange fire, the results could be devastating. We need to remember that Mormonism was born out of one man’s encounter with a dark angel who claimed to speak for God.
2. Beware of bizarre manifestations. When the Holy Spirit’s power comes on people they may feel weak or even fall. The Spirit’s power can also cause people to tremble, shake, laugh or cry. Such manifestations are biblical and we should leave room for them. But where do we draw the line between legitimate experience and fanatical excess?
The apostle Paul had to deal with outrageous charismatic manifestations in the Corinthian church. People were acting like raving lunatics—and turning the church in to a free-for-all of unbridled ecstatic behavior. Paul called for discipline and order, and he reminded early Christians that “the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets” (1 Cor. 14:32). In other words, Paul was saying that no one under the influence of the Holy Spirit should act out of control.
In many recent charismatic revivals, ministers have allowed people to behave like epileptics on stage—and they have attributed their attention-getting antics to the Holy Spirit. We may think it’s all in fun (you know, we’re just “acting crazy” for God) but we should be more concerned that such behavior feeds carnality and grieves the Spirit.
When exotic manifestations are encouraged, people can actually get a religious high from jerking, vibrating, screaming or acting intoxicated. (I have even been around people who writhed as if in pain, or made sexual noises—thinking this was a legitimate spiritual experience.) But emotional euphoria doesn’t guarantee a heart change. The person who is bucking like an untamed bronco in a church service would benefit more from sitting still and reading the Bible for an hour. When we put bizarre behavior on the platform we imply that it is normative. Thus more strange fire is allowed to spread.
3. Beware of hype and exaggeration. Our hearts are crying out today for a genuine move of God. We want the real deal. We’ve read about the Great Awakenings of the past and we long to see our nation overcome by a wave of repentance. The church is in a backslidden state, and our nation has rebelled against God. We are desperate!
In our longing for a holy visitation, however, we must be careful not to call the first faint breeze of the Spirit a full-fledged revival. If we do that, we are setting people up for disappointment when they realize it may not be what we blew it up to be.
Some of the language used during the Lakeland Revival has created an almost sideshow atmosphere. People are invited to “Come and get some.” Miracles are supposedly “popping like popcorn.” Organizers tout it as the greatest revival in history.
Such brash statements cheapen what the Holy Spirit is doing—and they do a disservice to our brothers and sisters who are experiencing New Testament-style revival in countries such as Iran, China and India. We have a long way to go before we experience their level of revival. Let’s stay humble and broken before the Lord.
I am rejoicing over all the reported healings at the Lakeland meetings. Miracles are awesome. Crowds are great. But miracles and crowds alone don’t guarantee a revival. Multitudes followed Jesus during His ministry on earth, but many of the people who saw the dead raised or ate food that was supernaturally multiplied later crucified the Son of God.
It was the few disciples who followed Jesus after Calvary who ushered in a true revival—one that was bathed in the fear of God, confirmed by signs and wonders, tempered by persecution and evidenced by thousands of conversions, new churches and the transformation of society. We should expect nothing less.
J. Lee Grady is editor of Charisma.
May 15th, 2008 @ 1:15 am
Hey Lisa. No, I did not graduate from FIRE or BRSM. Although, we have worked with FIRE in the inner-city of Los Angeles before and they are wonderful people.
I do know and agree that there was repentance preaching at Brownsville. A lot of good things did happen in terms of people in large amounts coming to repentance BECAUSE it was preached there, SERIOUSLY. Now, granted, there were a lot of strange things that happened there, but the CORE preaching was REPENTANCE and HOLINESS TO THE LORD. I’ve listened to most all of the messages that I’ve been able to get my hands on from the Revival there (mostly Dr. Brown’s preaching) during the height of it. When Dr. Brown left, I can’t say I agree with what began to happen very quickly to the Revival thereafter; and in the state that it is today.
In that last paragraph where you stated, “Bottom line is this…”: I AGREE! The question I would ask is “WHAT gospel are they preaching?” Look at the book of Acts…. is it THAT gospel? If it’s not, then we have a serious issue on our hands when people begin to go after it.
You know, another thing that comes to mind, when I look back on revivals of the past with Finney, Wesley, and the like (of which I’ve read somewhat extensively), I see manifestations similar to the ones in Lakeland (as well as Toronto and Brownsville) that DID happen. But if you study these past revivals they went ONE of two ways. Either the manifestations (i.e., the wierd disturbing ones) were NOT checked and the revival began to become manifestations-centered (and subsequently died), or these things WERE checked and the revival went forward and its focus continued to be Jesus (as He is in Scripture), repentance, reformation of God’s people, and awakening in their communities; the Power and Presence of a HOLY God!
I also agree that either way, you will still have some wierd things that happen when revival breaks out. The question is: WHAT is the FOCUS? From what I know so far (videos of preaching and MANY first-hand testimonies), I can’t say for sure that the FOCUS of what is happening in Lakeland is where it should be. I’m still praying, waiting, and asking SERIOUS questions. “Beloved… TEST the spirits…”
Glenn
p.s. – Lisa, I just saw that article by J. Lee Grady, praise God someone with influence like him gives a word of caution; true Shepherds gaurd the sheep and say “Hey, it looks like a wolf MIGHT BE coming our way, look out!” Thank you, Lord!
May 15th, 2008 @ 10:17 am
It’s not that I do not appreciate words of caution and I certainly don’t mind people voicing concern. I do have difficulties with people ascribing what God is doing to satan. Personally, that gives me great concern.
Shouldn’t we have the same attitude Jesus speaks about in Mark 9?
38″Teacher,” said John, “we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
39″Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40for whoever is not against us is for us. 41I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.
And, just for the records, I believe Todd is genuinely hungry for the presence of God. I cannot fathom that satan would be behind any of the miracles in Lakeland. As to Todd’s teachings, if there is serious error then I pray that God will send mature men and women of God to come alongside Todd and help him. However, I do not consider myself in the position to have the right or opportunity to confront him of his “errors” (which I believe should be done in private anyhow if that was the case).
May 15th, 2008 @ 10:27 am
Bianka,
Generically speaking, statements/teachings made in public should probably be addressed in like manner. One cannot take the opportunity to propagate bad doctrine through the modern media and yet expect that any other veiwpoints be limited in their distribution.
Matthew 18 and Paul’s “naming names” appears contradictory to many people but a careful study suggests that each has its own application.
May 15th, 2008 @ 12:44 pm
Lisa,
Thanks so much for sharing that statement by J. Lee Grady. I have never heard of him before, but I appreciate the caution he is expressing.
I was reading this morning in the Word and something jumped right out at me and I want to share it with everyone:
Deuteronomy 13:1-4 (NASB)
1 “If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,
2 and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’
3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 “You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.
Did God actually say that he would test us, to see if we would follow another voice?
I know that Todd Bentley is not trying to get anyone to follow after other “gods”, however didn’t Paul tell us that there was another Jesus:
2 Corinthians 11:4 (NASB)
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.
Again I do not want to reject anything that “God” is doing in Lakeland. I do not want to be critical, I do not want to be judgmental, I do not want to quench the Spirit, I do not want to attribute anything that looks like God to demons or Satan. However, in the same manner as this Grady fellow, we need more genuine men of God to stand up and get some spiritual backbone and issue words of caution publicly, that warn against following after “strange” fire. SOMETHING IS WRONG HERE!!! I NEVER FELT THIS WAY BEFORE AND I AM ANGRY THAT MY FRIENDS ARE FOLLOWING THIS WHOLE HEARTEDLY AND USING ZERO DISCERNMENT!!! I AM ANGRY THAT MY GOD IS BEING MISREPRESENTED!!! I AM ANGRY THAT THE CHURCH IS ASLEEP!!! Is it wrong to feel this way? I DON’T KNOW!!!
Is Satan involved I can’t say that, is God in control 100% I can not say that. Is it possible that messengers of light can counterfeit what God does, I don’t know but they did it in Moses’ day during the plagues. Is it possible that God would honor the faith of hungry saints and perform signs and miracles regardless of the doctrines and teaching YES!!!!!! Even if this is the case is something wrong here YESSSSSS!!!! something is TERRIBLY WRONG HERE, it doesn’t matter how you look at it!!!
May 15th, 2008 @ 12:47 pm
I’ve heard Dr Brown repeatedly state in the past regarding Brownsville to check the fruit.
That being said, can Satan cast out Satan? Or can a kingdom divided against itself stand?
To be honest, but vague to protect someone I know, I DO know of a testimony of someone getting messed up in a bad way by the Toronto Blessing.
A good friend of mine, lived in Toronto during that time and made TACF his home church in the early years of it. He tells me he felt like the Holy Spirit was giving him a dream and a word for someone in leadership. He will tell you now it was NOT the case. He went up to the altar at the end of a service and disrobed and walked around until police were called to usher him out. He wound up moving back to my hometown to live with his parents and receive psychiatric care, and was now classified schizophrenic and has been on medication ever since. This brother will tell you that it’s a condition some people CAN get later on in life without necessarily being born with it. (I lived with a roommate, separate from this incident, who just ‘snapped’ one day and developed it/got it as a coping mechanism from something traumatic that happened in his life).
I say that to say the brother that was a part of TACF will tell you God was moving, but so was something else. He got schizophrenia DURING his time there, and is still believing God for total freedom from to this day.
I share that to say, I don’t necessarily believe the Toronto Blessing was demonic, but that wherever there is a light flies are attracted to it, but it doesn’t mean the conclusion to draw is that the WHOLE thing is off. I likewise think (from a distance since I haven’t attended it yet), that Lakeland is something worth having the same caution about. Kilpatrick and Hill both have said weird people went through Brownsville and left weird. I hope I’m not rambling, but i just wished to say I know of both of the past major moves of the 90s that God was doing something, but there were casualties for various reasons that are worth noting, but that I don’t think means the whole thing should be discredited.
Is there anything wrong with being open to what God is doing AND being cautious and checking the fruit at the same time?
May 15th, 2008 @ 12:58 pm
Clarification.
I did not mean to say by quoting Kilpatrick and Hill that ALL who went to Brownsville were weird and left weird, but to say there are instances where some flakiness is not to be attributed to the move of God.
I hope I didn’t sound like I was saying something else.
Blessings
Steve
May 15th, 2008 @ 3:18 pm
steve,
what is the fruit? it is not prophecy, excersism or miricles (Matt 7:15-23)
I agree satan can not drive, the people in Matt 7 did work in Jesus’ name! That was not in question. We are told to look out for false prophets… then we are told that wonders do not equate with fruit!!! This is a sobering verse.
We should not be quick to judge (one only needs to read the first part of Matt 7 to know this)… but we a still are commanded to be on watch against for false prophets.
May 16th, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
Is God there? We know that where two or three are gathered in his name He will be there. And when you get several thousand together, with a sense of expectation, you should expect some good things as a result. The jury is not out on the healings, which God may be doing in spite of the circumstances. In fact, God seems to be moving in healing at many different places right now.
Doctrine is important. We cannot lay doctrine by the way just because we have witnessed a miracle, or felt goosebumps, or seen “prophecies” confirmed.
More on this at:
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/reckless-revival.html
May 16th, 2008 @ 2:52 pm
Technical Note: 2 or 3 is actually in reference to church discipline and excommunication… binding and lossing are also in reference to the same.
May 16th, 2008 @ 3:04 pm
Hey guys
In the recent posts there has been a lot of talk on the nature of the meetings
So here is some perspective to some of the things we have been talking about.
In the scriptures, Peter called Jesus the Son of God by revelation and in the same breath tried to prevent Jesus from fulfilling His purpose and was rebuked by Jesus as an adversary. Now I don’t want to get into a theological discussion of what Jesus meant by adversary but the truth we can glean from the passage is when we act in the flesh it is a hindrance to God. Now when we continue in the flesh and do not repent or control it, then we are in danger of allowing demonic influence in.
I think that’s what happened with some of the revivals and could be why that guy was possessed with an evil spirit from Toronto (quoting an earlier post). When the fleshy activity in the revivals was left unchecked it gave place to demons to eventually enter in. Now I don’t think we can ever be rid of fleshly manifestations as long as we are on this earth but I think there comes a place when we address them. I also think when these manifestations or mistakes were pointed out to the people in revival, the people leading from the front went on the defensive instead of correcting them that helped it worsen further.
Now in regards to the Florida meetings, here are some of the things I felt could be eye opening.
In the very first to second week of the meetings it was made equivalent to Brownsville and Toronto .I was amazed at that. This lead to a lot of striving to be something that wasn’t there. Now again God was doing something but it wasn’t as portrayed
I’m sorry to say this but none of the leaders involved or to fact most that were present helped proper growth of this thing but rather they simply enhanced the false assumption that this was a great revival. They should have helped this thing grow in its early stages and sown into that and not helped the assumption grow that this was a great revival. If then this could have very well developed into a revival of dynamic proportions.
I’m still open to the fact that this could change if the necessary changes are made.
I do understand that everybody was excited but excitement should have been applied with more wisdom. Now if we are blaming Todd for presenting something that is not there then everybody should take responsibility because we fanned the wrong flame.
This seems to be the pattern of these meetings, whatever is done, from healings to other aspects were something is presented in a way more than what it actually is.
Secondly I do admit there are concerns of doctrine and Holiness in these meetings.
However can we see this as God’s way of trying to bring correction to a part of the body that lacks that? When we are by ourselves, nobody sees our mistakes and probably we don’t either but suddenly when we are thrust in the open we stand exposed. Could it be that God is using this time to give them a chance to repent?
Now since I have been an integral part of one of these movements that is leading from the front in these meetings, I can say that these love and want to follow Jesus as much as the rest of us want to. However I must also admit they have been closed to changes on these till now. Maybe when there is accountability demanded in the level that it is now they will see the error of their ways and change.
Finally I can foresee three things that can happen with these meetings
1) They don’t accept the correction and change and as a result demonic infiltration with a lot of damage. I do think it has started already.
2) Make the necessary changes and this could turn into another healing renewal with lasting effects.
3) Make the necessary changes and allow the rest of the body to help, which could actually turn this into a real revival.
May 17th, 2008 @ 11:05 am
I had said in my earlier post that i have been an integral part of one of these movements that is leading from the front in these meeting.
One of my friends mistook it for the present.
I want to clarify that it was in the past i was part of it and not the present
May 17th, 2008 @ 1:10 pm
Care to further clarify, John? I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “an integral part in one of these movements that is leading from the front in these meetings” (I’m not asking what your part was, just wondering what is meant by the rest of the statement.)
May 17th, 2008 @ 1:55 pm
Went to school there for two years and also served under some of the ministries there during that time!!
May 17th, 2008 @ 2:56 pm
Ok, I’m trying to verbally follow you, John…by saying that you went to school “there” and “served under some of the ministries there during that time”…I have no idea what you are referring to when you say the word “there”. Are you saying that you went to a school that Todd Bentley has and served under his ministry, or are you talking about some other ministry? (Since you have mentioned it a couple of times, it must be important for you to do so, however, it’s coming across like although you believe it’s important for us to know that you were involved with a ministry in the past, you also don’t really want us to know which ministry, because each reference has been couched in such vague terms.) I hope that by choosing to end your last sentence with two exclamation points, you aren’t expressing irritation by my question. I was just curious, and if you don’t want to answer, that’s cool, just say so…but it was your own phraseology that sparked the curiosity, after all
God Bless…
May 17th, 2008 @ 3:52 pm
(Since you have mentioned it a couple of times, it must be important for you to do so, however, it’s coming across like although you believe it’s important for us to know that you were involved with a ministry in the past, you also don’t really want us to know which ministry)
Yes precisely( I wonder how you guys get the smiley faces to come,i tried and its not working).
It is a ministry that is closely associated with Todd in light of what is happening now and probably agrees with a lot of things Todd teaches(taught).
I didnt know if it was okay to say which ministry in the forum and so that is why i left it like that .
Also i wasnt irritated,i guess its a habit(!!!).
John
May 18th, 2008 @ 8:44 pm
Thanks, so much, John, that helps me understand where you’re coming from. BTW,
= : + ) but with no spaces in between 
May 19th, 2008 @ 1:16 pm
Dr. Brown Says:
3) Of course, some make reference to the angelic stirring of the waters at Bethesda in John 5, but as is commonly known, there are some textual questions there.
Todd Bentley makes reference to the pool of Bethesda a lot. Since he has been to heaven and chatted with Jesus and Paul, should we just take his word for it?
May 19th, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
No
May 19th, 2008 @ 4:21 pm
…goes into great detail about what he has seen…
May 19th, 2008 @ 4:30 pm
In his Sunday morning sermon (5/18) at Freedom Church in Colorado Springs, Pastor Dutch Sheets addressed issues concerning Lakeland and Todd Bentley. Copies of the cd are available for $6.50 including shipping, to order you can call the church at (719)548-8226…I just ordered mine
May 19th, 2008 @ 4:31 pm
That’s odd…in my previous post, I tried to put the date of the sermon May 18th ans somehow a smiley with sunglasses showed up…anyway, the sermon was yesterday, not May 1st
May 19th, 2008 @ 4:53 pm
Lisa
Can you briefly state what he preached on.
Thanks
John
May 19th, 2008 @ 5:51 pm
Lisa,
This blog site has the “smiley mantle.” Anytime you use a right paranthesis, a smiley will often manifest. Some have argued that this is not of God, that it is a work of the flesh, but the practice seems to be well established within blogdom. Others have attributed it to the Angel “Emoticon.”
May 19th, 2008 @ 6:35 pm
John,
He spent several minutes stating the pros and the rest of the sermon the cons and things to be concerned about and closed in prayer for Mr. Bentley. I have not heard the sermon, but one of my dearest friends attends his church and told me that the sermon was excellent and the issues that were addressed were done so with a compassionate spirit while, at the same time addressing certain issues in a direct manner. She seemed to think that since he ran out of time, there may be another sermon to complete this one.
Bill,
ROTFL…oops, can I do that, is that “of God”? Couldn’t resist
May 19th, 2008 @ 6:44 pm
Bill
Hmmm…. That sure is heresy!!! :+) ha.ha(just making sure if the simley dosent show up.
Thanks for the info Lisa.
May 19th, 2008 @ 7:15 pm
John,
You’re welcome…and don’t use the +…just the : and the )
May 19th, 2008 @ 11:43 pm
Wow, I’m stunned. I knew Bentley’s angelology was wacked, but I did not know it was this bad. I’ve been trying to understand the development of his thoughts on angels because he talks about them all the time in the “outpouring.”
This is the November 24, 2003 teaching archived on the internet archive on December 4, 2003. It has recently been edited down to two paragraphs on his website; this is the full text predating apparent damage control.
EATING FROM THE TREE OF LIFE
I see angels bringing some of you to the tree of life. Remember how God, in Genesis 3:24, sent the cherubim to guard the way to the tree of life because man had sinned. God took Adam and Eve out of the garden. But today the Lord wants to bring some of us into that place where we
taste the fruit of the tree of life. I want you to get involved right now and say: Father, please give us that fruit. Lord let those angels bring us right into the place where you have prepared a table for us in the presence of our enemies. Give us the divine life that comes from that tree so we can taste and see that the Lord is good.
Todd Bentley 11-23-2004
http://web.archive.org/web/20031204215254/www.freshfire.ca/teaching.asp
May 20th, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
pure heresy
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
“I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.”
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.”
I need no angelic escort!!! Jesus has already provided the COMPLETE and ONLY way.
May 20th, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
I just watched tonight Todd Bentley say that Lou Engle called him today and said that Lou’s ministry announce in Kansas City that the Call is behind and endorse’s the Lakeland revival and calls intercessors to pray for it to be everything that God wants it to be… That was the gist.
Oh, and Lou Engle has a link to Dutch Sheets website on his website… I guess different ministers feel differently.
May 21st, 2008 @ 12:23 pm
I think we can all agree in prayer that it and Todd Bentley would be “everything that God wants it to be”. That’s what we’re all hoping and praying for.
May 21st, 2008 @ 9:45 pm
MY PRAYERFUL THOUGHTS ON LAKELAND
Let me preface this portion by saying that I am convinced that the Lord is moving in Lakeland, and in hundreds of hearts in other parts of the world who are being affected by this move. The testimonies are absolutely undeniable, particularly in the realm of physical healings. There have been documented reports of cancers being eradicated, deaf ears opening up, even the dead being raised. Many hearts who were away from the Lord altogether are coming back to Him, or reconsidering their ways.
I tread lightly when discussing such things, for His body is a sensitive entity, and I am not one to glibly throw my opinions around. I despise presumption and the self-absorption that seems to accompany many who claim to have “concerns” about certain believers or movements.
That being said, I have a desire here to express what I believe are the positives and potential pitfalls, and I believe the timing is right for it.
TWO ERRONEOUS EXTREMES
There are two extreme positions that believers are already taking regarding Lakeland, and I believe that they are both skewed measurements.
The first error is the demonization of the movement based on certain concerns. The primary concerns are:
1. Difficulty with the primary vessel being used. Many have trouble with Todd Bentley’s appearance or personality.
It is unhealthy to reject something altogether based on someone’s appearance or personality. The Lord has always used vessels of imperfection, so to discard a work over something like this (even if you maintain your views) is not wise.
2. Difficulty with some of the teachings in the movement (or perhaps the lack of teachings), or the teachings of some of Bentley’s ministerial colleagues/friends.
It is possible to receive from the Lord through vessels who are gifted in certain ways, but perhaps immature or imbalanced in other ways. Todd may not be a teacher, but the Lord may be using him in other ways that could be of benefit or help to your own life.
3. Difficulty with the frequency of supernatural claims (angelic sightings, third-heaven trips, etc.)
I too struggle with this one, but I still do not find grounds to discount the entire movement based on this concern.
4. Difficulty with some of the ministerial methods (“Bam!”, the somewhat circus-like atmosphere, etc.)
Again, I personally would not prefer certain elements (the seeming showmanship, the focus on manifestations, any boasting other than in the cross, etc.), but these are not grounds to write off what the Lord is doing.
Due to these concerns, among others perhaps, many have completely written off the movement as demonically inspired and have warned fellow believers to stay completely away from it all. I believe that this is an erroneous assumption. I will touch on some of the concerns soon, but to reject the movement as a whole based on these concerns is a faulty conclusion.
The second error is the premature, imbalanced exaltation of the movement as the answer to everything that the Church has needed. Here are the primary erroneous thoughts along these lines:
1. “The crowds are large, so many are hungry and traveling there, so this must be the big one!”
Of course crowds to not prove anything, except for the fact that something is happening. The hunger of many hearts after God (or even after personal healing) is a positive thing, but we need to be concerned for all that the apostles desired in the church, which touched the areas of family and real life so much more than merely celebrating the fact that our gatherings are large and exciting (of course I’m not advocating a view that we ought only to have small, boring meetings!).
2. “Who cares if the Word is not being preached or taught much, look at the miracles. People are feeling the Presence. Isn’t that enough?”
This disposition is perhaps my strongest concern. Our charismatic generation is in radical need of wisdom from the Scriptures. Jesus said, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures or the power of God.” The trouble comes when we neglect one or the other, and while negative critical saints may be neglecting the power, we are often guilty of neglecting the Word. We have seen certain saints who have traveled land and sea to hear a word from the hailed prophet of the hour, and they’ve not even prayerfully dwelt in the prophets of the Bible. This is an unfortunate thing, friends. The church is not built on those who call themselves prophets and apostles, but on the prophets and apostles of the Scriptures themselves. We’ve got to get back to the Scriptures AND the power of God, lest we find ourselves preaching another Gospel, and ultimately another God.
3. “Anyone who raises any questions about this revival is just being dominated by a religious spirit.”
I don’t think it would be a stretch to say that most of the folks who I have heard raise concerns about Lakeland seem to have a tenor of superiority toward others, and a condescending tone against Todd Bentley. But this does not mean that there are not those who are hungry for revival, longing to see the captives set free, having love toward all in the Body, while carrying genuine burdens for truth and merciful concerns for certain movements and ministers. It is not wise to indict every person who asks an honest question or humbly raises a concern. We are called to test the words of the prophets, to bring our own lives and the lives of fellow believers under the scrutiny of the Scriptures. While it is horrific and tragic to see believers criticizing and mercilessly demeaning ministers with whom they have an issue, it is also unfortunate to find that often any believer who humbly raises a question about a certain stream or teaching is immediately shot down, tagged as having a “religious spirit.” This “religious spirit”, which is referred to a lot more in our day than it was in Paul’s, often seems to be the reactionary attack phrase, shot freely against anyone who has a view that differs from ours. To immediately tag this on someone is as dangerous as immediately saying that those operating in healing are doing it by the power of demons. We ought not be so quick to say that another brother is operating with demons. Sometimes they are genuinely raising Scriptural issues.
4. “All of the well-known prophets are endorsing this, even saying that it’s the third wave. Therefore, we must jump in with both feet or we’re in danger of missing God altogether.” Once again, all things must be humbly laid out before the Lord, and before the Scriptures. If the Lord is doing something (and I believe He is!), it will not be confined to one stream or one movement. It will come to all who love His appearing, who abide in His love, and who tremble at His Word. There are also genuine prophetic men (David Wilkerson being one) who might not carry the exact same perspective as the prophets within this movement. We need to hear from all men and women in the Body, and allow the Lord to give us His perspective, rather than taking sides with the leaders with whom we have the most similarities. We all see in part, and we need the Spirit of God, the Word of God, and the people of God to help us come into the fullness.
Of course, not everyone being blessed by what’s happening in Lakeland carries these extreme views, but there are many that do. I’d like to bring a bit of balance to the negative and positive extremes with the help of the Lord.
I believe it is erroneous to go in either of these directions, the totally negative, or the totally positive. To throw it all out or to drink it all in could produce a distortion of the qualities that the Lord has already instilled in your heart as a believer. The challenge for those of a critical view is to open your hearts and recognize more mercifully what the Lord is doing through this movement, and even to be blessed and challenged by it. While the challenge for those of an entirely positive view may be to forego a faddish kind of following, and look to the Scriptures afresh, asking the Lord for reality and wisdom for real life.
I personally believe that God is doing something fresh in Lakeland, and all over the world right now. I believe that Todd has a genuine gift of healing, and/or a gift of faith. I believe that it’s touching many lives right now, and many saints are being quickened to believe God for greater breakthroughs in witness and miracles. This is a positive thing! We desperately need to see the emergence of a Gospel that is given in power, with signs and wonders following. I do believe that this is the beginning of a restoration of these things as normative to the experience of the Church. And it’s about time, isn’t it?
I also believe that we’re going to be required to respond rightly during this season. When the Lord poured out faith and power for healing in the 60′s, the response of the Church was largely to raise up several healing ministries that revolved around individual men, rather than coming into the reality of the apostolic faith for which reason the Spirit is given (the exaltation of Christ Himself). We run the risk of doing the same thing in our generation. We can see healing and power as an end, in which case we raise up several ministries, even filling stadiums for a season with miracles and supernatural demonstrations of power. Or we can see the giving of the Spirit as a means to the exaltation of Christ, which includes healings, but goes further toward the raising up of healthy families, repentance and mercy sweeping through the nations, hearts made holy, the fear and awe of the Lord being released, a consciousness of God’s intentions for Israel, etc. God is after fullness, and that means much more than we in the church have known it to mean. It is the emergence of a people who have become the very expression of the nature, power, and reality of Jesus Himself. For that, we need the gifts that God is giving, we need to become a people of the Scriptures, we need one another.
I believe that God wants to use this movement to encourage a fresh faith for the miraculous, a compassion for the sick and diseased, and an expectation for God to break in and bring transformation. I believe that it is a movement that is revolving around the spiritual gifts that have been given to Todd Bentley. I also believe that we would be in error to assume that this is an expression of the fullness. Even if we saw stadiums in every city filled with people worshipping, and miracles taking place, we would be seeing a crucial part, but not the whole. God is after raising up a people who, in the realm of everyday life, know intimately and express the person of Jesus Christ. He is the center, and His cross is still the gateway. I do not believe that we have yet seen the kind of apostolic servants raised up who will have the authority, maturity, and depth to birth and nurture these kinds of communities. But they are being formed as we speak.
A gift of healing, faith, or prophecy is just that. It’s a gift to the individual and a gift to the Church. It’s precious, and it can be given to any believer despite their level of maturity or depth. We shouldn’t assume that because someone has a certain gift from the Spirit that their teaching is foundational, or that that they are the next apostle Paul. We ought to be edified and encouraged by that gift without quenching the Spirit. But we shouldn’t hold them on a pedestal because of the gift.
The error that we might have with a brother like Todd can be seen here. Some are discarding the gift because of some questionable teachings. Others are exalting everything about him because of the gifts. If we see how Paul viewed the Corinthian Church, we have help as to how we should view one another. There were gifts of the Spirit there, genuine gifts. But their theology was bad, they were permitting immorality, doubting Paul’s apostleship, and settling for all kinds of divisions and schisms. While I may be in disagreement with some of Todd’s teachings and methods, I have not seen a departure from foundations even as drastic as what we see in Corinth. Still, Paul did not question their gifts, only the order of things in their gatherings. I believe Todd is genuinely gifted, and the Church can be blessed by that while holding to a jealousy for the fullness of Christ.
We still need to see a recovery of the apostolic preaching of the cross that has always accompanied historical revivals, and that will- I believe- characterize the ministry of the Church in these last days. We will not get there by being gullible, faddish saints who are tossed by every wind of doctrine. Nor will we get there by being faultfinding, self-righteous, suspicious believers who have a superiority complex toward all who are not like us.
I believe that we ought to rejoice in the fact that the Lord is moving, weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice, and ask God to give us the wisdom and revelation to become that generation which comes into the fullness of Christ. This will include much more than any of us have known, but the only way to come into it is to abide in Him, abide in the Scriptures, and respond in grace to the light that He is giving. He is jealous for it. He is jealous over us. He is jealous over His glory. “May the Lamb who was slain receive the reward of His sacrifice!”
I offer this prayerful perspective to you all, however incomplete or imperfect is is. “We all see in part”, Paul said. And here is part of what I see.
Blessings and Grace,
Bryan Purtle
May 22nd, 2008 @ 11:28 am
Bryan P.
A very thoughtful post. Thank You.
You say: It is possible to receive from the Lord through vessels who are gifted in certain ways, but perhaps immature or imbalanced in other ways.
Sure it is. But is it wise? Is it fruitful? Or in the case of this quote from Bob Jones on the 13th, IS IT CHRISTIANITY or SOME OTHER GOSPEL?
“As I watch you, you VIBRATE. You know there are 2 PORTALS, clock wise and counter clock wise …. When you VIBRATE you close demonic vibration …. Counter clock wise vibration is demonic. The VIBRATION IS HEALING.”
(Side note- below the equator, clock-wise vibration is demonic)
You also said: “Todd may not be a teacher…”
Close to 300 documents on his website labeled “teachings” indicate that at least he and his steadfast followers believe he is.
I’ve also heard many claims of healing, and I would not be suprised if indeed some healing has taken place, but on the other hand, the Hinn-interview-format lends itself to selection, cold readings, suggestion, and all other sorts of manipulation that is not unknown in this genre. About the time someone is about to say somthing that might contradict what he has just prophesied, he “Bams” them. When I see him acting prophetic and then recovering because he mis-heard the person (I having the benefit of instant replay on the video) it really rubs me the wrong way.
Who was it that said the sign of a true revival is when people fall when there are no catchers?
Its all very sad, but fortunately, as big as many think this is, 90% of Christendom hasn’t even heard of it.
Bob Jones called it (prophetically) a three-ring circus, and for once, I’d have to agree with his assessment.
May 22nd, 2008 @ 11:51 am
Hey guys
This is not in reply to any of the comments but is certainly in line with the discussions.
I believe the term God uses imperfect vessels is used so often and generally that it is very misleading.
There needs to be a specific differentiation between the gifts in operation and the Holy Spirit present and working.
For people could be in disobedience and sin and yet operate in the gifts but to equate it with the HolySpirit moving is an insult to His character as He is Holy.
From experience and personal understanding the Spirit can’t move through a person in sin especially when he is in it willingly.
Now I do understand the other dynamic of this were the Spirit is present because the people are hungry regardless of the person leading. Even then I also believe that God has appointed leaders for a purpose and they can greatly hinder or open His flow accordingly.
Let us pray for true discernment this hour that is rooted in Love.
May 22nd, 2008 @ 1:35 pm
Adding another dimension to my earlier post,
I Timothy 4:16 says Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them for if you do,you will save yourself and your hearers.
This verse by itself speaks volumes on the necessity of proper life and doctrine on those who lead from the front. For if they don’t have these in order they will mislead people under them.This clearly places the emphasis more on doctrine and life over gifts or talents in relation to the people being influenced and not just the leader(See also Matthew 7:21to 23)
I can in general quote a lot of instances were because a leader was in sin, wether knowing or unknowing to the congregation, it opened the door for many such like sins in those under him. I can also quote of several specific instances personally.
Now there are other dynamics to that but the general principle remains the same,sheep beget sheep and goats beget goats, unless there is a cross breeding
The level of accountability increases with level of influence as the bad can also be transmitted along with the good.
So it is important that we discern what is good and bad for ourselves and also pray for Godly leaders to extend their covering over the body at this time.
May 22nd, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Dutch Sheets May 18th sermon regarding Wisdom and Revelation…Todd Bentley and Lakeland is now on his church website. Here is the link for those of you who would like to listen to it. His words were carefully chosen and the message delivered in a very Godly manner.
http://www.freedomchurchcs.org/index.cfm/pageid/709
May 22nd, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
Thanks for the resource, Lisa. He raises some very important points in this message.
May 22nd, 2008 @ 8:58 pm
I concur with his thoughts on the healing testimonies. This should be an interesting summer!
May 22nd, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
The thoughts presented by Dutch Sheets were very balanced and confirming.
Lets pray for Todd and everybody in Lakeland
May 23rd, 2008 @ 7:02 am
Bill,
I don’t presently have the time to respond to your post. If you could, please email me your specific questions and I’ll get back to you ASAP.
Blessings,
Bryan
May 23rd, 2008 @ 10:45 am
BP,
Those were rhetorical questions!
-Bill
May 23rd, 2008 @ 12:33 pm
John,
>The thoughts presented by Dutch Sheets were very balanced and confirming.
Balanced concerning the healing “show” (Bentley calls it a show). I’ll be looking for part II of that sermon to see if he addresses the doctrines of angels, portals, and the tree of life. Perhaps he is ignorant of such issues, or perhaps goofy doctrine gets a free pass in the c’matic church today.
May 23rd, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
Yes Bill.
I do agree that there are other areas of concern.
One of the things that has helped me during this time to have a balance is not forgetting were some of my roots are from (mentioned in my earlier posts on being part of a movement that shares in quite a few things Todd does and believes). I realize that if I don’t separate the mistakes from the movements themselves, which I believe some of them are God initiated, then I would loose the Life and the fruit God wants to bring from them and also has brought in the past in my life. The same applies to the charismatic, Pentecostal movements and their likes. Even if they end in apostasy and terrible error I guess there is place were we are still thankful to God for the many things they have brought. I guess it is a difficult balance on one hand to see the errors and not be a part of it but at the same time be grateful for the good things they brought and still bring to some extent.
Having said that one of the serious issues now is concerning teachings on angels in those circles and a few others as you mentioned. I was in a private meeting once with a few others with this well respected man of God. He said, “ You have the trinity Father, Son and the Holy Spirit (to the small audience) but you are still struggling in your spiritual walk and the reason is you don’t have angels to help you”. “So ask god to send you his angels”.
I must admit that I thought it was right at that time but looking back at it now I realize the serious error of that statement. Now I do think it is okay to ask for angelic protection but to put it in a way that makes God inadequate to help us is heresy. It also shows the trend some of those movements have taken which is giving more importance to angels and their likes.
It is usual for those to start of their sermon with an encounter they had to validate what they bring rather than scripture or the word of God. That’s why there is a lot of deception prevalent. I am not saying doing it sometimes is wrong but that it is a general pattern and even then experiences have to line up with God’s word and His Spirit.
Regarding Todd, he has made himself equivalent to William Branham and A.A Allan more than a few times by what he has said and tried to do but it is miserably falling short with the healings and the words of knowledge that he gives.
Having watched the revival till a few days back here is my concern, if Todd really has William Brenham’s angel helping him then why aren’t we seeing the healing that Branham saw during his days?
If we are not seeing it and with all the misses and guesses then we can in some ways conclude that it is imaginary or something else, which seriously needs looking into.
Again I want to bring a balance here by saying that there is a probability of me doing the same mistakes Todd is doing if I were in his shoes. However on the other hand when millions are exposed to this and there is no or little accountability it dreads me to fear the consequences that might arise as a result of this.
So again let us keep praying as Dr Brown said earlier that God’s best should come out of Lakeland.
May 23rd, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
Bill,
If you know anything about Dutch Sheets you know he is certainly not a man to “give a free pass to goofy doctrine” and there are many leaders in the charismatic church who certainly feel the same. I, personally, don’t believe he is ignorant of some of the issues you mentioned…but rather, I believe he is choosing to handle his public statements with much prayer and wisdom. If you listen carefully to his message in the link I posted, you will notice him stating a couple of times that he is choosing his words carefully because he knows that many people will hear it and also that there are other issues he would like to speak about but that he would not have time to address every issue in this one message.
This is a tricky situation for leaders in the body of Christ. Of course, it would be best for someone who has a personal relationship with Mr. Bentley to speak into his life and help him in the areas where his doctrine and perhaps spiritual influences are not Godly. So, what happens if someone he knows doesn’t step up to the plate…does a leader who has no relationship go to him and speak with him? On a practical level, I’m sure that these are just some of the issues that leaders (who acknowledge that there are problems) are dealing with right now.
I think the best thing we can do is to pray and not allow a spirit of divisiveness to creep into our individual lives. As I’ve looked at different forums during the last few weeks, Christians seem to be taking 3 different views of Lakeland and Mr. Bentley. 1) Something’s happening…it must be God! 2) Something’s happening, it can’t be God! 3) Something’s happening, Todd Bentley’s theology and teachings are full of mixture and extra-Biblical doctrine…God bring purity and remove any spiritual influence that is not of You.
In the middle of this, I’m sure we’ve all read some down-right mean and religious postings (I’ve chosen to steer clear of those sites), but also there has been quite a bit of finger pointing especially from people who condemn those who raise serious questions…I think the time has come to put those fingers back into the holsters and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal to people that honest questions do not equate with a religious spirit….on the contrary, if left unchecked, that finger pointing could be hazardous to their own spiritual well being. (see Matthew 7:1-5)
Here is a portion of what Derek Prince said about mixture, “I have observed that the result of mixture is two things: first of all, confusion; and then division. For instance, we have this mixed message, part of which is true, part of which is false. People can respond in two ways. Some will see the good and focus on it, and therefore accept the bad. Some will focus on the bad, and therefore reject the good. In either case, it does not accomplish God’s purposes.” Here’s the link…there’s so much more that applies to our discussion http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm
I recently read an article that was written by a minister who was formerly a New-Age adherent. The article addressed a number of relevant concerns, was very Biblical, and in a clear & concise way spelled out exactly why certain teachings that are being presented as spiritual right now are not Biblical but are straight out of the New-Age. But I can’t find a link I can post here. Since it is a bit lengthy, I thought I would ask if any of you are interested in reading it, before I chose to post it…let me know, and have a wonderful weekend
May 23rd, 2008 @ 3:44 pm
clarifying earlier post that said
if I don’t separate the mistakes from the movements themselves, which I believe some of them are God initiated
if I don’t separate the mistakes from the movements themselves, which I believe some of them(movements) are God initiated
May 24th, 2008 @ 11:20 am
WHAT DEMONS CAN AND CANT DO
Before commenting on these things I would like to make several things clear.
I’m in no wise relating this to Todd. I also believe that God’s power is no match for Satan and he can out perform him by millions to countless of times. However what has troubled me recently is the scale that people use for discernment. These things will freak most of us but in a good way.
I was born and brought up in India. My Dad was into deliverance ministry even before I was born. So I grew up seeing demons cast out of people almost everyday onetime.
When that happens you can in some wise see first hand what they do and cant do. Even then you need the Lord’s wisdom and insight or else you are blind to those things.
CAN DO
1) They can confess that Jesus is the Son of God (Legion in Luke). They can quote scriptures with perverted accuracy (Jesus’ temptation). They can say bits and pieces of the apostles creed (the one on Jesus’ birth life and resurrection)
They are not bothered even when people who are possessed do that.
2) They can heal people (coming of the antichrist is with lying signs and wonders). In India there is a man called Sai Baba who calls himself Jesus and also makes himself equivalent to other gods and to date has performed many miracles. Now it remains to be seen what happened to the people who were healed. Mostly i think they should have gone into perverse lifestyles or the sickness came back.
3) They can bless people with finances and prosperity. I was doing my internship under one of my doctors in Russia. We had some free time during that day and she asked me “do you know this man sai baba” .I said very curious to know why “yes”. Then she went on to tell how they were struggling financially before they went all the way from Russia to India to see this man. She said he blessed them and ever since they have prospered greatly. She also said that all the top leaders in the world go to him secretly.
4) Now am going to take it up a notch further. Ive seen deceiving spirits cast out of people and they are impossible to discern without the gift of discernment. These spirits in people can actually pretend to do everything we do in church. They can speak in tongues (demonic), they can say “praise you Jesus” “thank you Jesus” “worship you Jesus” and stuff like that with ease. Now one has to wonder which jesus they are saying it too, which of course is the devil (angel of light). They can give words of knowledge with almost 100% accuracy (when I’m using the term words of knowledge am not relating it to the gift of the Spirit but that these demons can actually tell our past almost accurately). They can try and prophesy but mostly they are wrong.
CAN’T DO
1) These spirits are unclean and can never produce Holiness in people and that is why Holiness is an important marker in any meeting that claims God is present and moving.
2) When they are asked to mention Jesus death and resurrection on the cross they just cannot do it.
3) They are afraid of the blood of Jesus and cannot proclaim the victory that comes through the blood of Jesus. They freak out when songs on the blood or the cross of Christ are sung, of course with the Spirits power present to deliver.
4) They cannot say the Apostles’ Creed in full, meaning if the person says it that means he believes and so they would have to leave.
Now in ending I must say we rarely hear any mention of the redemptive work of the cross or the blood of Jesus in many churches today. There is no clear gospel truth being presented on the coming death and the resurrection of Christ. There is little or no Holiness. While there is plenty of importance given to the things mentioned in CAN DO
Believe me demons have no problem hiding in those atmospheres and can easily deceive people.
All of these make me wonder!!!!!!!
May 24th, 2008 @ 2:31 pm
The other night I watched the revival and heard talk Stephen Strader about their “11th resurrection from the dead”… well, actually, the lady did die a few times, but when she was raised up she was actually “brain dead” and not “dead, dead” if you know what I mean. But still this is a miraculous, incredible story as the woman was brain dead for 17 hours (basically she was pretty much dead) and the doctors are baffled at her recovery…
You can read the lakeland version below and scroll down to the heading that says:
===============================================
Pastor Stephen reads the story of number 11 raised from the dead:
===============================================
http://www.thedesperate.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=234
Here is the MSNBC Article on the story: (unfortunately they don’t really give the glory to God)
_______________
Woman Wakes Up After Family Says Goodbye, Tubes Pulled
NewsNet5.com
updated 5:57 p.m. ET, Thurs., May. 22, 2008
CLEVELAND, Ohio – A West Virginia woman was being transferred to the Cleveland Clinic after walking the line between life and death. Doctors are calling Val Thomas a medical miracle. They said they can’t explain how she is alive.
They said Thomas suffered two heart attacks and had no brain waves for more than 17 hours. At about 1:30 a.m. Saturday, her heart stopped and she had no pulse. A respiratory machine kept her breathing and rigor mortis had set in, doctors said.
“Her skin had already started to harden and her fingers curled. Death had set in,” said son Jim Thomas.
They rushed her to a West Virginia hospital. Doctors put Thomas on a special machine which induces hypothermia. The treatment involves lowering the body temperature for up to 24 hours before warming a patient up.
After that procedure, her heart stopped again.
“She had no neurological function,” said Dr. Kevin Eggleston.
Her family said goodbye and doctors removed all the tubes.
However, Thomas was kept on a ventilator a little while longer as an organ donor issue was discussed.
Ten minutes later the woman woke up and started talking.
“She (nurse) said, ‘I’m so sorry Mrs. Thomas.’ And mom said, ‘That’s OK honey. That’s OK,” Jim Thomas said.
Val Thomas and her family strongly believe that the Lord granted them their miracle and they want everyone to know.
“I know God has something in store for me, another purpose. I don’t know what it is but I’m sure he’ll tell me,” she said.
She was taken to the Cleveland Clinic for a specialist to check her out. Doctors said amazingly she has no blockage and will be fine.
____________________
MSNBC Article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777532/
May 24th, 2008 @ 2:34 pm
Sorry, for the double post, I thought the first one did not take…Moderator could you please delete the post above. Thanks!
May 24th, 2008 @ 3:31 pm
Asha,
Your previous two posts were accidentally marked as spam. I deleted the second one you posted.
Marcus French
Line of Fire Moderator
May 25th, 2008 @ 8:55 am
Bryan P.
OK, maybe they weren’t so rhetorical.
(Questions in this post)
http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/principles-of-spiritual-discernment/#comment-311
Tell me what you think about counter-clockwise vibrations and why you think this is more biblical than new-age.
Feel free to address the other questions as well.
-Bill
May 25th, 2008 @ 8:58 am
Asha,
That’s a really cool miracle, especially when the doctors are saying its a miracle, and the people involved are giving glory to God. I’m not sure that I see anything more than a casual connection to Lakeland (i.e. it happened at the same time as a series of meetings were taking place, and someone knew someone…)
-Bill
May 25th, 2008 @ 10:49 am
In the Lakeland testimony, (i.e. an e-mail from one of the women, Darla, who prayed for the previously brain dead woman)…a young lady in her choir went down to Lakeland for an impartation and then prayed that what she received would come on the folks in the choir and Darla was one of those people. Darla says,” When the young lady prayed for me, in her prayer she mentioned Healing, Revival in my family, and Restoration. We did not know what was coming our way but our Lord did.”
Darla and another woman prayed for the previously brain dead woman who was her Darla’s aunt. Now that woman is alive and well.
That’s how a lot of these “from the dead” stories are happening. People go down to Lakeland and receive prayer and then “bring it back” with them.
That’s a reason why people are going down there… to get a radical touch from God, that will empower them to do His supernatural work… and it’s being transferred to a lot of folks. People are being empowered even after they leave Lakeland and get back home and walking in the supernatural, faith, and boldness for Jesus in ways they didn’t have previously.
You can go to http://www.thedesperate.com/?L=blogs.blog&article=234
to read more about folks who have come back from the dead and how it happened.
They haven’t posted this one yet, but one guy just came back from the dead and he rose up in his coffin! Also in one of the meetings, a man with a glass eye started seeing out of it and his two amputated legs grew 2 inches overnight so now he can’t even fit in his prosthesis. I heard those two stories last night.
May 25th, 2008 @ 2:26 pm
Thanks Asha, I went back and read it again; had missed the part about Darla praying for her aunt. Isn’t it amazing what God can do!
-Bill
May 25th, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Here is the link to the guy who started to be able to see out of his glass eye (from seeing absolutely nothing to seeing light and dark):
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/434731
Although his legs had only grown out an inch at that time… the next night it was two inches…
May 25th, 2008 @ 9:41 pm
move the slider to around 38min
May 26th, 2008 @ 12:40 am
Hi,
I realize that I am joining this conversation late but, I would like to add a few thoughts. I have read through many of the posts and have considered much of the reasoning from all perspectives.
First, I will let you know that I graduated from B.R.S.M. in May 2000 and was very blessed to have been part of the revival.
As I have watched the Lakeland Revival on my internet I have sensed the same anointing as I experianced at Brownsville. Now, don’t worry I have deeply considered and researched the theological concerns raised here and am not one to rely on “feeling.” However, as a child of God I know His voice and know His spirit.
I have also learned that although someone is moving in the real power of the real Jesus that doesn’t mean that God is endorsing everything they say or do. He chooses to work in imperfect vessels. He also does things in ways that don’t fit in our mind-sets, even things that seem bizarre.
I attend a small church and some of my pastors have been to Lakeland. God really touched their lives and they have brought back the fire. These are not flaky people at all. They know God and I reallly trust them and their judgement. I have also been friends with people who are personal friends of Todd Bentley and I know they are solid people who love God with all their hearts.
I understand that we can’t just go on endorsements but, all the leaders that I have heard endorse this revival are solid men and women of God that know the anointing of God. I would be shocked if they were all being decieved by a false spirit after knowing so well the real Spirit of God.
I guess it also comes down to what I can sense in my Spirit and what Jesus has spoken to me. I realize that there is much that I do not understand but, I am His child and He speaks to me. He also is not going to allow me to be lead into deception without sending out a whole lot of warning, I trust Him to do this because He has promised to.
Didn’t mean to get preachy there but, I think like Dr. Brown said that we should be very careful to call something satanic that may very well be of God. We don’t want to miss what God is doing and of course in the same breath we do want to keep our discernment on. Just ask God to reveal the truth to you.
Thanks,
Jenn
P.S. Hi Dr. Brown, good to hear from you on this! Thanks!
May 26th, 2008 @ 12:56 am
Hey John, very interesting post there (on May 24th) about “what demons can and can’t do”. Thanks for that.
May 26th, 2008 @ 10:25 am
Your welcome Glenn
I felt to respost my earlier word in this forum .Have deleted some portions as it dont relate anymore.
A PROPHETIC WORD FOR THE SEASON
As I was seeking the Lord on the nature of the recent happenings in the body of Christ,
the Lord showed me and also said that the rains are not just for the wheat but also so that the tares can mature. Then I realized that the tares grew along with the wheat in the parable, received the same rains the wheat received and also would have produced fruit of its own kind.
………
3) We need to examine our lives to see if we have received truth when it was brought to us for if we hadn’t God will send a powerful deception so that we believe a lie.
Let us be aware that the coming of the lawless one would also be marked with many great lying signs and wonders.
This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.”C.H. Spurgeon
God bless you guys!!
Would be signing off for now
John
May 26th, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Hi Jenn!
May 26th, 2008 @ 6:29 pm
Asha,
Inquiring minds want to know- if the guy pops out his glass eye for routine disinfecting, does he lose his restored vision, or can he point it at himself and see himself? Wowsers!
May 26th, 2008 @ 6:52 pm
I have no idea… but Todd did say that it would be more of a miracle for him to have vision from a glass eye than if God turned the glass eye into a real eye…since skeptics could always say he never had a glass eye in the first place.
Didn’t know that people took their glass eyeballs out.
May 26th, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
Yes, they do. The possibilities are endless.
For now, I guess we can say that he is seeing through a glass eyeball dimly?
I hope he gets it medically verified.
May 26th, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
I hope he does too…medical verification of all of the healings and dead raisings would be great
I do not doubt, for one second, that God heals and raises people from the dead. I was blessed to have engaged in lengthy conversation (a few years ago while working with Pastor Bonnke’s ministry in Vienna) with a Pastor from Africa who had been dead for 4 days when the Lord resurrected him…stone cold dead, in a coffin with embalming fluid in his veins, he said he smelled it coming out of him for two weeks after he came back to life. What an awesome conversation we had 
There is a video available about this pastor’s resurrection and everything was verified and documented by doctors, the mortician, and many others…amazingly Pastor Bonnke didn’t even know that God was raising this man from the dead (in the basement) as he was preaching, awesome story! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNaoDyV-PJ4
However, we would be wise to remember that healings, in themselves, neither verify the godliness of any given ministry nor negate extra-Biblical teaching and error. In Pastor Bonnke’s case, his theology is beyond reproach…in Todd Bentley’s case that has yet to be determined…there are entirely too many spiritual caution lights flashing…we need to proceed with much prayer…
(I find it very odd, that a good number of issues that have been raised on various internet forums, and confirmed through Mr. Bentley’s own teachings on his site are now becoming a bit harder to find due to some massive editing that has taken place within the last 2 weeks, one article, in particular that deals with his “angel” Emma and was previously several pages long (I have a copy), now is only 2 paragraphs long and only mentions her in passing as “a certain angel”…if there is nothing to hide, then why is someone going to such great lengths to hide things, and why now?)
(Please understand that I am NOT equating Todd Bentley with the following example, but rather seeking to point out that healings in themselves do not verify the purity of a ministry or its message…have any of you ever heard of “Rev.” T.B. Joshua in Africa? Or of the new age guru Sai Baba in India? Or, for that matter…what about an example listed earlier, Marjoe Gortner? People have been healed in meetings with each of these people, some by the power of God and some in some other way. With Marjoe Gortner, people were healed in his meetings, but it was the grace of God meeting the people’s faith because Gortner wasn’t even a Christian, he said so himself.)
I join with the rest of the Body of Christ in praise for every healing He has done and I pray for unity of the Body and purity of the message coming from Mr. Bentley…
May 26th, 2008 @ 9:38 pm
Lisa,
I saw video of that testimony many years ago. You talked to the guy that had been embalmed? Awesome.
We are on the same page on the other stuff.
May 26th, 2008 @ 10:02 pm
One thing is for sure…
The fruit from this is far reaching whether it be because of Todd’s faith or in spite of him… Healings are great… really great and all in one person’s meeting, but when it spills out across the nation and even overseas, that’s something.
People can easily camp around one person and oooo and aaaah. This stuff is breaking out all over. Even in the metro area where I am, Holy Ghost outbreaks are going on in various churches across the city and it’s like people believe that Jesus wants to do something. In fact, starting tomorrow night over a 100 churches in the area have gotten together for revival in our city. The meeting will be conducted by one of Todd’s associates who lives in our area.
During the days we will be taking the Gospel and power of God to the streets ( as is being done in Lakeland) and have meetings in the morning and evenings. Can you imagine tons or people hitting the streets seeing the supernatural break out and people get saved.
I mean, man,…. a 100 churches coming together for a move God and hungry for the glory and Jesus. That’s incredible!
May 26th, 2008 @ 11:29 pm
Asha — great to hear the report!
May 27th, 2008 @ 12:09 am
Bill,
And, as a woman in ministry, it is so very refreshing to minister with people who couldn’t care less what your gender is, they just love it that you are an evangelist with the same calling as their ministry…I deeply cherish each time I’ve been blessed to go over and work with them.
Wow, yes, that was an awesome ministry trip. I love, love, love ministering over there, especially with German speaking believers and especially with Pastor Bonnke’s ministry leaders, they are some of the most cheerful and Godly people I have ever had the pleasure of knowing
There’s so much I could say about my time in conversation with Pastor Eckechukwu, but here’s a little bit of info that was not included on the video. ( The entire time we spoke he kept talking about his wife’s “stubborn faith” and how thankful he was that she continued to believe God for his miracle. ) Anyway, he said that after he had died and his body had been in the mortuary, the mortician injected him with embalming fluid and as the mortician started to try and do other things that a mortician has to do to prepare the body for burial a “force” pushed him away from the body, each time he tried to use tools on the body, something would push him away. So the mortician went and got a witchdoctor or someone like that to come to the mortuary and do whatever they needed to to make that force allow him to continue to work on the body. At one point,during the night, the mortician heard music (that sounded like hymns) coming from the mortuary, so he went out to see what was going on, when he touched the door knob to open it, the music/singing stopped, this happened a few times and finally he told them to come get that dead body out of his mortuary!
The main thing that he emphasizes is the need to make sure that we forgive…he said that, even though he was a Pastor when he died, if God had not given him a second chance, he would not have gone to Heaven because he had unforgiveness in his heart towards his wife…wow, may we all walk in forgiveness
May 27th, 2008 @ 12:12 am
Oops, let me clarify one thing…whatever the witchdoctor did, didn’t work because the mortician never could work on the body
Now that’s the power of God 
May 27th, 2008 @ 5:53 am
Hey Asha, where is this taking place?
May 27th, 2008 @ 5:55 am
The 100 congregations coming together for meetings and street evangelism, I mean.
May 27th, 2008 @ 9:11 am
I am surprised that major media outlets like Fox News, CNN, Etc… are not reporting on people being raised from the dead. I mean it is not like these things happen every day you know. That would be a major story! Dutch Sheets raised a good point, he said that Todd in giving words of knowledge spoke out that someone is being raised from the dead right now as I speak. There was no verifiable proof, is that one of the people they counted as raised from the dead?
Asha,
Any reason why the lady who got up from her death bed in the hospital didn’t give credit to the Outpouring in Lakeland?
-Daniel
May 27th, 2008 @ 10:09 am
Glenn, the meetings are taking place in the metro-Atlanta area.
Daniel,
Well, MSNBC did report on one of them. As for the lady who was healed from being brain dead, perhaps she didn’t really know about the Lakeland meetings at that time. She may just know that she was prayed for. That’s not to say that later, the family will tell her the bigger picture. I mean this was all still really new when the story was done. Also, the family could have told the reporter about the meetings in Lakeland and how Darla received an “impartation” from someone who went down there. Or they could have chose just to give the glory to God. There is no way to know all the in’s and out’s of what was said or not said to the reporter.
Second,
Dutch Sheets had a few points… but one thing I felt differently about is the “if it happened, we would have heard about it, so it must not have happened” approach. The dead has been raised in this country or people who were really dead, dead have been sent back to earth and just came back to life in this country plenty of times before… but the media is in the “bad news” reporting business, not the miracle reporting business.
I have heard plenty of people’s testimonies regarding that type of stuff (being dead and all) and yet I never heard about it on the news! I have been amazed. Many of these things are never reported and if they are, perhaps only a small story in local media outlets. Part of this could also be that when those things happened people were just happy the and didn’t think to call the media in.
I’m not saying a person was raised in the morgue when Todd said it… I am more referring to just the general concepts that God can be doing wonderful, outrageous, bizarre, over the top stuff… and the media may not know about it or choose to ignore it as “luck” or “some unexplained random thing”.
May 27th, 2008 @ 10:34 am
Also, one of the stories is about a man who was dead 45 minutes even with the standard white sheet pulled over his head, came back! One of Todd’s associates even went to meet the man. A Nigerian man in the revival got a call from his friend that the friend’s baby was born dead, the man (who came to get the power of God) started to pray over the phone for the baby, who came back to life.
Now… here are two stories of people coming back from the dead… one a man dead for 45 minutes… and regardless of the cause of him coming back to life… why has no one reported on a man being dead for 45 minutes coming back!!! If they have it must have been some small local story somewhere.
May 27th, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
I think Dutch Sheets makes some very good points, whatever true miracles are happening, get verification…that can be done, even in Africa. The man who was dead for 45 minutes and someone pulled the sheet over his head…get a statement from the doctor. The person with the glass eye, have him go to his optometrist and be tested, find out if it is common for a person with his injury to ever be able to “see light and dark” or is it a miraculous happening, get the statement, come back and give the testimony…it’s that simple. Otherwise, some of the stories could just be another “urban legend” for all anyone knows…I think Dutch Sheets is being very practical. It would be wise to trust but verify.
May 27th, 2008 @ 2:05 pm
Actually, people do come back or e-mail Stephen Strader (Ignited’s pastor) with dr. verification. Todd also has people on his team to call around and verify stuff.
Last, Todd REPEATEDLY tells people to go back and get dr. verification over and over and over again. He has said that when the media comes he wants as much undeniable proof as possible. He does not take this lightly knows that there are plenty of skeptics out there.
May 27th, 2008 @ 3:48 pm
That’s great to hear…but I disagree with labeling people with honest questions as skeptics.
May 27th, 2008 @ 4:41 pm
Here is a link to a prophecy given in 1965 by Stanley Frodsham concerning the end times and mixture…it is sobering
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Prophets/1965.Vision.Coming.Decept.html
May 27th, 2008 @ 5:47 pm
Lisa,
I actually was given a copy of that 4 years ago. Apparently this man ministered with Smith Wigglesworth. Notice how many times he warns about holding the personalities of men in admiration. I am not referencing that towards Todd, but as a general warning many people are more attracted to the personality of a leader than the Truth he is presenting before the people.
Asha,
I know you love what is going on here and everyone is excited about the miracles, don’t let your fire and your faith die out. Jesus said “When the Son of Man returns, will He find faith on the earth?” Keep the fire burning until He returns, however please be cautious of this “move” I am getting some MAJOR red flags. There are many great leaders out there who we have trusted for years, who are actually endorsing this “move”, however it seems that in doing so they have tossed discernment in the garbage can in exchange for “SOMETHING IS HAPPENING”. I have had to stop following the revival because it was spiritually detrimental , the only information I have been getting lately is in this forum.
peace,
Daniel
May 27th, 2008 @ 8:43 pm
Oh, my goodness, I just read this on another site and it’s enough to make you cry, please pray for the friends and family of the dear Pastor in this story. This is why we should pay heed to Dutch Sheets suggestions…pray for the sick, believe God has done miracles, let them go to the doctor to see what God has done…here’s the post…it’s obvious the person who posted it is hurting and ministry leaders operating in wisdom could have saved everyone involved from the unnecessary pain…
_________________________________________________________
“Anyways the real reason I decided to post on here was because of a dear friend of mine who passed away this morning at 5:20 AM. His name is Pastor Larry Reed, Pastor of Olympic View Assembly of God in Silverdale, Washington. Pastor Larry has been suffering for the past 18 months of terminal bone cancer. He was given only a year to live, but PRAISE THE LORD out lived the doctors findings. He (Pastor Larry) told me last year at breakfast one morning that he wanted more for Jesus and was going to do whatever it took to accomplish that. He invited speakers from all over the country from evangelists to prophetic speakers so that he and his congregation could catch the fire and maybe just maybe a revival would break out in his church.
He really took a turn for the worst this year, and lost most of his weight, he looked like a skeleton, was on oxygen and needed care all of the time. He couldn’t even preach anymore. Pastor Larry was a man who dearly loved Jesus, and was very strong in his faith and very strong in stature physically. So to see him him so frail was shocking to say the least.
Last week on 5/18/08 he was in the sanctuary there in Lakeland trying to find the healing he soo much wanted, sitting in his wheel chair in front of Mr. Bentley, he was deemed as “healed” when Pastor Larry stood up and cheered in victory. During the course of last week when he returned, he got worse and so this morning he died.
Now I have to say with all my heart that I believe without a shadow of doubt, that this so called “revival” is fake! I wont question my friend’s faith because his ministry was filled with faith. But if this was truly a move of God and all these people were getting healed, then why did my friend die?
I truly believe with all of my heart that God in His infinite mercy and love for his child Larry Reed took him home this morning to end his suffering and that he is face to face with Jesus right now. But what about all the others who have been duped into going along with this mess and is finding out that they right back where they started? I tell you if I could I would knock some people’s lights out, of course that wouldn’t be right, but thats how I feel.
I hope that all of you who stand up for this guy Bentley, will “wake up, arise from the dead and allow Christ to shine in you”, the days are evil family, the light of day is growing shorter and shorter, and we’re wasting our time hunting down the anointing looking for the next wave of revivals. People are dying about a hundred thousand a minute. Instead of seeking the anointing for yourself why not run out to your street corner and begin to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and take on the heart of Spurgeon when he said that if people want to go to Hell, the they will have to jump over his body to enter those gates!
Blessings to all in Christ Jesus”
May 27th, 2008 @ 9:41 pm
Hey Lisa,
Interesting (and sad) post there about how that pastor died. I must say, though, that his situation (as sad as it is) I don’t think invalidates what’s happening at Lakeland. There are many things that could have happened to Larry and many reasons why he may not have been healed (by the way, I do believe that it is always God’s desire to see His righteous whole/healed). That person suggesting that the ‘revival’ is ‘fake’ because Todd (or Todd’s people) proclaimed that he was healed and he went home and was still sick shouldn’t sway us either way (in my opinion) (and I do understand that that person is coming from a place of hurt, anger, and saddness, so I’m not belittling their testimony either). I do appreciate your post as well – it is not my intention to downplay it. Please don’t take it that way.
On another note, I was watching a YouTube.com video of Todd’s preaching the other day (because I still have hopes that I’ll find some good repentance, REVIVAL, NEW BIRTH preaching) and I came across a message that he gave. While I was watching it it was like a double take… He said, “We do not battle against flesh and blood…” I then thought, okay, he’s going to finish the Scripture reference (Eph 6:12), but he then said directly following that, “….and we DO NOT battle against principalities and powers… the ANGELS DO..” Let me tell you, I had to replay it a couple of times to make sure I wasn’t hearing things. He changed the Scripture right out in the open. I mean, he’s been a Christian now for a while (a leader and a ‘minister’ ) so I would think he’s come across that verse maybe (hopefully) more than once.
You can see it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
I forget where it’s at in the video, but the video is not that long anyway, just about 9 min.
Asha,
I’m really curious – do you know of any videos that I can watch that record Todd Bentley preaching on “revival”-type stuff: i.e., repentance, holiness, the new birth, putting off of the old man, death to the old man/self, picking up the Cross and following him even unto death, walking before God with a pure and clean conscience, etc. If you can point me to any of the above, I’d be glad to go listen and check it out. I have yet to hear anything like it of his (which is ONE of my biggest concerns). If God is healing people or they’re getting healed by demonic power – either way healings don’t validate or invalidate a supposed ‘revival’. A “revival” presupposes a declension in the church and brings that back (physical healings or not).
Also, I would really like to hear how everything goes in the metro-Atlanta area with regard to those chruches coming together to seek God for revival and reach the streets with the Gospel. Do you live in that area? If you do, I would really like to know some of the details on what happens; if you don’t mind.
Grace to you all,
Glenn
May 27th, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
By the way, that little smiley face was NOT suppose to happen. Will the moderator please delete that smiley face from my post. Thank you!
It was just supposed to be a “)”
-Glenn
May 27th, 2008 @ 10:37 pm
Glenn,
In posting this letter, my purpose was twofold. 1) To emphasize, by this example, how very important it is that the leadership pay heed to what Dutch Sheets advises in his message that was posted earlier…i.e. Pray for the person, believe God for the healing, and have the person go and seek verification from their physician, then give testimony that they were healed. If this situation had been handled in that way rather than pronouncing that the Pastor (who passed away today) was healed…then it would have spared both himself and those who knew and loved him, much heartache and emotional pain and the person who wrote this letter would not have had any reason to write the letter that they wrote in the middle of their pain. To declare that the Pastor was healed, was presumptive, especially in view of the fact that he passed away within about a week after he was pronounced healed…Wise leadership would have been, well…wise
The second reason for posting this was just to ask each reader to pray for these people who are obviously hurting right now and need the Lord’s comfort and for Him to help them walk in forgiveness.
I, by no means, meant to imply that people were not getting healed at these meetings…I only wanted to show how very deeply some people were hurt because leadership handled this situation in the wrong way…this did not need to happen.
May 27th, 2008 @ 11:32 pm
Glenn,
I don’t have any specific messages that speak on those things in their totality in mind… although yes over the course of hearing his messages, he has brought those things up in his teachings.
Lisa,
The skeptics Todd was referring to were the same “skeptics” Sheets were referring to (i.e. the folks trying to make Christianity and the supernatural look bad in general… i.e. the liberal media, unbelievers, etc.)
May 27th, 2008 @ 11:50 pm
Glenn,
Bentley’s exact words were
“we do not not battle against flesh and blood, we do not battle with demonic power, the angelic hosts do.”
it appears at 07:00 here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
I just wonder how much of the audience recognized the bait and switch.
May 27th, 2008 @ 11:52 pm
Asha,
Thanks for the clarification.
May 27th, 2008 @ 11:59 pm
Bill and Glenn,
12 “For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, F19 against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. :
It would seem quite clear that Mr. Bentley’s comments are in direct contradiction to scripture.
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:01 am
Yeah, Duh.
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:11 am
Well, I want to bring up a story for sake of discussion and I guess it has always been an honest question in my heart. I had a friend when I lived in Pensacola who attended the revival. She had cancer and was prayed over many times and prophesied over by a visiting healing evangelist. While it was prophesied that she would be healed, she ended up passing away. This was after the split. Of course I was very upset, and was very confused at the time. While I still don’t understand, I don’t think it would be wisdom for me to discredit everything that happened there because of one incident or even the few I know about. Not that don’t understand the pain and the grief, that is very real! I still however firmly believe that God heals as I have seen Him do it many times. Although this is slightly off the topic of revival, I do have a question for Dr. Brown or anyone who would like to answer it. I know someone who was very recently diagnosed with a terminal illness. Although, I have a peace in my heart that this person will be healed; is it always God’s will to heal everyone? If so, then why are there people like my above example that simply do not get healed despite their strong faith that they will? One more question, why in some cases are people forced to go through a painful “process” before they recieve their healing?
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:18 am
Sorry that post was a bit choppy, I was not finished editing it before I accidently posted it. Anyway, I hope the questions are clear enough.
Thanks,
Jenn
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:38 am
Dr. Brown,
PLEEEEEEZE dig up the audio on your teaching “Is healing for today” and post it.
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:44 am
Jenn
Was the healing evangelist Robert Kayanja by any chance? Just curious.
-Bill
May 28th, 2008 @ 12:52 am
Dr. Brown,
The teaching was actually called “Is healing really for today.” and was given, if my notes are correct on June 13, 1998.
May 28th, 2008 @ 2:28 am
Lisa,
Thanks for that clarification. I see where you’re coming from. One of the reasons that I noted what I noted was because there have been situations that I know of (in past U.S. healing revivals) where someone in a wheelchair gets healed by God through the minister and gets up (was previously unable to walk) and runs around the building shouting out loud that he had been healed (praise God!), …but then.. doubts begin to fill his mind and he runs back to the wheelchair, sits down and is never able to walk again. So, it is possible for someone to be healed and then allow it back in via doubt and fear. I’m not saying that is what happened, but that is one of the reasons I said what I said. I do, however, understand where you are coming from in your clarification – so thank you for that.
Also, yeah, direct opposition to the Word is what Todd statement was.
Asha,
If you do have a message by Todd (video or audio) that at least talks about these things (seeing that they are what New Testament salvation and revival was focused on) then I would be glad to listen. Let me know the link. Thanks.
Bill,
Thanks for the clarification on that. Yeah, I was amazed that you see the audience just going along with it. I was saddened that such a thing was so easily glazed over by everyone. It really was an in-your-face change of Scripture. Not sure if he ever changed his views on that, but if he hasn’t (and nothing indicates that he has)… it is not good at all. It just shows where he’s coming from when it comes to the role that angels play in ministering to the heirs of salvation – a non-biblical part at that.
Jenn,
Great question! I know it’s not directly about revival, but it is a good question. Dr. Brown has a full series on that topic and he exhaustively addresses all of the issues. Just go to his site and you’ll find the series there: http://store.icnministries.org
-Glenn
May 28th, 2008 @ 9:32 am
Glenn,
The teachings on keeping your healing are pretty well established within chariscostal thought. Frankly, I think that it leads to a works-based salvation, in this case where the Works is Faith.
Within the recipients of this teaching, it creates a mental/spiritual angusih that often is worse than the physical affliction. “Do I have enouigh faith? Why am I still sicK? I’m going to name it and claim it, Bless God, although I feel like crap.”
I rather tend towards healing being a provision of my salvation, based in the atonement. I understand that faith is essential. But my faith is in JESUS AND THE CROSS, not in some healing manisfestation. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Faith like this – God is so Good. I believe that He is real. I believe that he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross. I believe that I am healed “by his stripes.” The faith becomes focused on God, not on the affliction. We have RELATIONSHIP with GOD, behind the veil as it were.
I say all of that to say this. Pastor Larry Reed surely had that kind of faith. In fact, based on healings that he had seen over his lifespan -he was an A/G pastor- I’m sure he had great faith of the other kind (faith to keep his healing). And so my conclusion is, for whatever reason, he was not healed. I don’t cotton to suggestions that he was healed but didn’t keep it because if some lack of faith. But I expected that it would be suggested. The suggestion is offensive to the gospel and his family.
I’m not concerned that he wasn’t healed. Sometimes we aren’t. So what?
Here’s where the crux of the problem is- a revival atmosphere that suggests that he was healed. If TB proclaimed that he was healed (the event does not appear to be on the May 18th video), and if the angel “healing revival” is often whispering such info into his TB’s left ear -which means healing so he says- that who are we to dispute it?
Like Dutch Sheets, and Lisa, I am greatly concerned about the proclaimings of healings which may have not taken place. And the audience goes wild over vain imaginations. Is that faith or stupidity?
We can write Pastor Reed off as one unable to keep his healing. In Toronto, they wrote people off who did not manifest as “HTR.”
My heart goes out to the “hard to recieve” people. Jesus died for them too. I am deeply pained by the angusih that many across the word are feeling. They have been handed a lie- that all you have to do is “come and get it” – ciome to the revival and you will get your healing.
If the gospel works, it worked before there were airplanes.
I have already seen tension in the sick in my church. They have sought for a physical manifestation of healing for years. Now, they are feeling like maybe if they just go to Lakeland, they will be healed. But they don’t have the money for an air ambulance if that were possible. Or cannot get away from thier job. Or they suspect maybe it is not the right thing to do. Tension. And not from God.
Are people getting healed at these meetings? I would suggest that some are. But the hype (Bob Jones called it a 3 ring circus) and the false proclaimations make me sick.
Todd Bentley has stated “We do not have to age.” Either that is truth, or it is a lie. Hint – it is a lie.
Last night I watched the May 18th video. A family with a young girl with terminal brain cancer brought her to the revival. There was a language barrier. After praying, with no visible manifestattion, Bentley asks the girls father- what did she say? He says “she’s hungry” Bentley to the estatic crowd – did you hear that- shes hungry – as if this is a manifestation of healing. They whoop it up . Then the father tells him shes hungry all the time, the medicine makes her that way. TB skillfully changes the subject immediately. This is damnable.
I’ve seen him do this with cold readings, where he gets all excited and the crowd goes wild, and them he reazies he heard the person wrong.
He is very good at not looking bad, but I would prefer that he own up to his mistakes. Seems that angel – sometimes the “angel of the Lord” i.e. Jesus -as TB states it, whispering in his left ear is not too accurate. .
I want to minister to the hurting, and the HTR’s, the discards. I believe this is the heart of the Father God. But alas, many have believed a lie.
I don’t want this to sound too harsh, but that’s the issue. And that’s why Pastor Reed’s death is pertiunent to the discussion. Proclamations, with so called apostolic authority, birthed by dozens, if not hundreds of 3rd heaven experiences, are being made. Just as we can verify many miracles, be can verify a false proclamation. Death is pretty convincing.
We have two choices here- either we succumb to the explanation – lack of faith- for all proclaimed healings, or we determine that lies are being spoken in the name of Jesus.
Let us not dishonor Pastor Reed, and hundreds, even thousands of others who are not healed, by attributing it to their shortcomings. Thank God that Jesus heals out of compassion. If it were up to our own merits, we would all be dead.
May 28th, 2008 @ 9:56 am
Glenn,
I am not an expert on Todd Bentley’s messages… I do subscribe to his podcast… but I don’t have any sermon names off the top of my head.
What I can tell you is that some of the main themes I have heard from Todd is intimacy with God (Jesus, Holy Spirit, Father), demonstration of the kingdom with signs and wonders, living in resurrection power, being IN Christ, etc.
As far as preaching salvation messages, I notice that he does that more in his crusades. Outside of that, he seems to preach more on equipping the saints to do the work of the ministry.
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:05 am
Also I would like to say to everyone on here is… it is very easy to be an “arm-chair quarter back” and point out the faults of others. (And that’s not to say that there aren’t faults to begin with.)
However, what I would say to an “arm-chair quarterback” is… “Ok, how about YOU go out there and get your own team, be the quarterback and DEMONSTRATE how it should be done. How about YOU be the example. ”
On judgement day, Jesus is not going to ask us about how many people’s faults we exposed and people’s doctrinal erros we discussed about in unknown blogs, but rather the fruit we produced in our OWN lives.
Action tends to speak much louder than words. Amen.
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:14 am
Asha,
As does longevity and being faithful to one’s own calling.
May 28th, 2008 @ 3:25 pm
LET US LEAVE ROOM FOR MORE MERCY WHEN THERE IS ERROR
Although the Lord has actually shown me some severe consequences if there is no genuine repentance in things happening and also some of the real damage that is happening to the body right now, I realize it is important to have my heart right before Him in this regard.
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord’s will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Its like this, there were two young men who lied on a constant basis in their conversations. One of them was from a poor abusive background from childhood and lived in the streets (am not giving further details as it is understood) and the other was brought up in a godly family with no lack. Now when we say both of them are lying in their conversations it implies that what they are doing is wrong. However the way they will receive their chances to repent and if they don’t repent, will be punished by God would be entirely different.
In a similar sense it is true that there are some grievous errors in Todd’s doctrine and ministry, however as I had mentioned earlier I don’t think he has ever been confronted with all of his wrongs till now. From that type of settings were he is from everything he does and says is common and usually encouraged. So right now with all of the exposure and the light it could really be blinding at first.
Also from earlier post I think this is God’s way of correcting some of the erroneous doctrines and practices that have crept in some parts of the body and only time will tell if people repent or not and the course they will take.
Having been in and seen both sides of the coin I see that one side has been brought in the word and truth and has a lot of balance (not implying that they are perfect) while the other has been birthed through a lot of errors and extremes, so only time will tell how things will unfold. So let us also show more grace and mercy accordingly. Let us be zealous for the truth on one hand but on the other have the heart of God and the mind of Christ which is more important.
John
May 28th, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
Bill-Yes, it was Robert Kayanja, I think he was from Africa. It was confusing to me at the time because I really did feel the strong presence of God and yet I know of people that were not healed as he claimed. In fact I knew of I think 4 people in about a monthes time that ended up dying after he prophesied over them that they would be healed (including my friend). I think the last service he was in Pastor Kilpatrick stopped him in the middle of what he was saying because it was erroneous and that was the last I saw of him.
Glenn-Thank-you for the link.
-Jenn
May 28th, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Jenn,
As is suspected. I listened to many of those services, and even bought a video, and I thought they were quite odd and not really in harmony with what I experienced at Brownsville. and I don;t think I’ve ever discussed it waith anyone. Thanks for the information.
Its a small world, afterall.
May 28th, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
John,
I beg to differ with your application of Luke 12.
Todd Bentley, by his own testimony, is one to whom the Lord has given much. By his accounts he has visited heaven dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. He has discussed scriptures with the apostle Paul. He has seen Jesus. He claims apostolic authority. Jesus, and/or the “angel of the Lord” whispers in his ear. He has been entrusted with (his words) a great outpouring.
And the Word states:
“from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.”
I hope God is merciful towards Todd Bentley. I am more concerned for the thosands whom he might lead astray, or who are hurting now as a result of his proclamations. He appears dangerously close to a millstone moment.
I don’t expect to have any input in his life. Sadly, those who do are probably going down the same path.
May 28th, 2008 @ 6:03 pm
Hey folks,
A few quick comments in the midst of a busy week of ministry in NYC:
1) Because I personally had to work through so many questions regarding healing, I ended up studying the issue very intensely for a number of years. For those interested, the series I taught on the subject is definitely recommended (it was referenced above and is available from our webstore), along with my more technical, full-length monograph, Israel’s Divine Healer.
2) It’s very unfortunate that someone who preached in Pensacola (really, post-revival) prophesied that people would live who then died. There needs to be real accountability here! Thankfully, I did not hear of that happening with any of our leadership team when I was there from 1996-2000.
3) The Book of Job teaches us two important things when inexplicable things happen to the righteous: First, don’t judge the person and say, “He (or she) must have sinned!” This was the error made by Job’s friends. Second, don’t judge God and say, “Why did He send this calamity!” That was the error Job made. Rather, He hold to God’s goodness, encourage the one afflicted, and trust Him together for healing and restoration.
4) While I have still not been able to get to Lakeland and while the Lord has still not released me to comment on things at all, I would say that I’m a bit surprised that some on this blog feel that they can confirm or deny the reality of what is happening in Lakeland based on what is being taught. If God poured out His Spirit among Calvinists, they would be preaching Calvinism, but the Calvinism neither proves nor disproves the outpouring. So, we evaluate teaching and preaching by the Word, but unless Jesus is being denied in a fundamental way or another gospel is being preached — to the point of being outside of the NT faith entirely — we can’t use that as a tool with which to evaluate an apparent move of the Spirit. That must be evaluated by other means, which I listed a few weeks above, many posts ago. Without question, what is taught and preached will have a profound, lasting effect on any move of the Spirit, but what is taught and preached, in and of itself, does not necessarily help us to know whether the move is true or not.
5) On a very minor note, does the Bible teach that angelic powers do battle with demonic powers? Would that be in harmony with Daniel 10 or Revelation 12? If so, then the statement causing such consternation here (relative to a truncated citation of Eph 6:12) would not be that major, would it — unless the point of the message was that we need to call on angels to do the fighting.
Providentially, my most major book on revival is about to be reprinted in a new edition, with a new opening chapter, and under the title, A Time for Holy Fire: Preparing the Way for Divine Visitation. The book contains a chapter discussing Jonathan Edwards criteria for revival, and as soon as it is available, we’ll notify our e-list (sign up if you’re not on it already!) and make it part of a special offer.
My last word of advice is this: The most important thing to do in such controversial times is this: Press in to the Lord, tell Him that You are hungry for everything He is sending, keep focused on Jesus and on touching your world for Him, and trust Him to lead you into streams of living water and keep you safe from polluted streams.
May 28th, 2008 @ 6:32 pm
Hey Bill
How about looking at it this way.
One grows in an enviorment were people lie without even giving a second thought to it while the other has been taught what is right and wrong so there is a different scale of reasoning for both.
In the case of Todd i think he has been brought in an enviorment were such experiences are common.As a matter of fact in such places people see dreams and visions of the Lord almost everyday.
Im not talking from the view that Todds visions are right and so he needs to be more accountable but from the point of view that a lot of scuh visions and dreams are from the human spirit and are usually presumption.Im talking about it in the context of growing up in presumption without any proper knowlegde of truth
May 28th, 2008 @ 6:57 pm
changes to my earlier post
(Im not talking from the view that Todds visions are right and so he needs to be more accountable but from the point of view that a lot of scuh visions and dreams are from the human spirit and are usually presumption)
Im not talking from the view that Todds visions are right and so he needs to be more accountable but from the point of view that a lot of scuh visions and dreams could be from the human spirit and are usually presumption
May 28th, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
John- so should it be propagated or do we warn people until he completes bible college? That’s the $100 question.
Dr. Brown- If calvinists held a revival, how would they know who to invite?
>unless the point of the message was that we need to call on angels to do the fighting.
That’s exactly the point of his message. He calls on them for money too.
Point 4 seems directed at me- and that’s OK- but I will say that I’m not shooting from the hip. I’ve spent countless hours sorting though the BS on the internet, bacause many unfounded conclusions are being presented. I am trying to archive as much as I can, but teachings and video clips are vanishing from the web faster than Paul Cain’s confession. However, I do have much source material and can provide copies on request.
Most of the individual remarks can be explained away. I could probably explain awaay the comment “I’m not a man now, I’m under the anointing” if I had to. But the overall composite teachings, including Portals and counter-clockwise vibrations, are hard to dismiss.
May 28th, 2008 @ 8:11 pm
Hey Bill
if you see the starting comment of this post
(Although the Lord has actually shown me some severe consequences if there is no genuine repentance in things happening and also some of the real damage that is happening to the body right now…..)
i do agree on the fact that there are grevious errors .
i do think these things need to be adressed and im surprised that there is practically no accountability to what is going on(in regards to the claimed healings and hit and miss prophetic words and words of knowledge).
However when it comes to so called visions,angels and their likes i think it is a much deeper and broader issue that needs to be dealt in a wise way and if we start pulling out the tares now we would damage the wheat.
In saying that if the angel has made so many mistakes by now in telling todd things…….
anyway it is obvious.
So you see i agree with you on most things:)
However let us not be quick to label todd into something,let us see the full picture and give more time before coming to a conclusion
May 28th, 2008 @ 9:51 pm
Hey Bill,
Thanks for the reply and for voicing your concerns. There many things that you said that I agree with and your concerns regarding Lakeland are ones that I share.
Regarding healing, I agree with you in stating “I rather tend towards healing being a provision of my salvation, based in the atonement.” In fact, I don’t tend towards it, I am SURE that it is a provision of the the atonement that Jesus made at Calvary. I do also believe, just as well, that this is received by faith, with a proper understanding of that provision. What happened with Larry, I do not know and I can not say. I DO know what the Word says, though, and it makes it abundantly clear that ACCORDING to our faith we are healed. Proof of faith is not, “He MUST have faith, because look at his life, his beliefs, and his ministry”… proof of faith is the healing. There are many factors in each person’s life, I understand that. Do I believe Larry did not have enough faith? Not necessarily. Do I believe he was in sin? Certainly not necessarily. Do I believe that God wanted him well, YES! Why? Because the Bible tells me so. Why it didn’t happen I do not know and I can not say because I don’t know Larry’s heart. I do know, however, that according to the Word we should expect it because God promised it and He’s not a liar.
Out of curiosity, have you had a chance to listen to Dr. Brown’s series on healing?
Also, if you want to talk about it (the issue of God’s will for healing) at length you can email me and maybe we can even talk over the phone since the topic is so extensive and I probably would have the time to do it all through email. My email is GlennAlanBolan@gmail.com – feel free to drop me a line and we can start there. Or you can go to Dr. Brown’s site and get the series which is BY FAR the best I’ve EVER heard on the subject – WELL GROUNDED in the Word. (Also, just a note, I’m not trying to exalt any man, it is just to say that this series is RIGHT ON).
By the way, the reason I said what I said to Lisa was to make sure we don’t jump to conclusions because of certain assumptions that can be made.
Dr. Brown,
Regarding point 5, yes, the point of the message, as Bill noted, is that we call on angels to do the fighting for us. That is why Todd stated, “We do not not battle against flesh and blood, we DO NOT battle with demonic power, the angelic hosts do.” This was said in the context of telling the audience about the necessity of letting these angels (the ones he’s propagating) into thier lives and warning them of the danger of not doing it.
Asha,
Regarding the messages, that’s okay. I was just curious and asking you since you’ve listened extensively (as it seems) to Todd and support what is happening in Lakeland and in his ministry (as far as I can see). For this reason I figured you might know a lot about his preaching. You did share what you have heard largely from him and I thank you for that information.
Also, you stated: “On judgement day, Jesus is not going to ask us about how many people’s faults we exposed and people’s doctrinal erros we discussed about in unknown blogs, but rather the fruit we produced in our OWN lives.”
With this statement I agree! Amen. Without LOVE, Paul makes VERY clear, we are NOTHING (1 Cor 13:1). We must remember, however, how much time Paul spent in his letters correcting doctrine. Why did he do this? Because, as Dr. Brown noted above in point 4, “Without question, what is taught and preached will have a profound, lasting effect on any move of the Spirit…” Hence, why? Because what someone believes effects WHAT they do and HOW they see and worship God. Or, one could say, depending on the doctrines, “how they see and worship THEIR god” as opposed to the One as taught in the Word. Much of the professing church today worships a god made in their own image – it’s idolatry. I KNOW, I used to do it.
PLUS, in the Bible when it talks about a good shepherd it explains that the good shepherd guards the sheep and keeps them safe from the wolves and their influence. Hence, many that are in leadership positions have the RESPONSIBILITY to warn and caution the sheep against false teachings that can plague the Body like gangreen. Hirelings, on the other hand, run and leave the sheep to fend for themselves when they see a wolf (or a possible wolf) on the front; they send no warnings or cautions (which is the LEAST they could do). With that said, many when they stand before Jesus will also be held accountable for not speaking out in warning or rebuke (in LOVE) when they should have.
Do you see my reasonings here?
-Glenn
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:05 pm
Anybody watching tonight? After Todd preached a little they went back into worship and it is off the hook. We can feel it here in our living room. Since we went and have been back my prayer life has been revolutionized, especially extended times in worship. God has never been more real, and His manifested presence more strong in our lives. We watch almost every night and are in our own personal revival.
I thank God for His faithfulness.
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:11 pm
Thanks for the clarification on the Eph. 6:12 teaching.
And to repeat and clarify: I’m neither defending nor criticizing what’s happening in Lakeland, just asking some questions, and making some points, and I have no one in particular in mind in the questions I’ve asked or the points I’ve made.
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:24 pm
Bill, just a spelling correction… I meant, “and I probably wouldn’t (would NOT) have the time to do it all through email.” That’s why the phone might be better to have a good in depth brotherly conversation on the subject. It just depends on where we’re starting from. But email is a good starting point.
Grace to you,
Glenn
May 28th, 2008 @ 10:39 pm
Brian, thanks for your testimony. I’m glad the Lord is touching you brother! Continue on in His grace. Press on and press in! I’m praying for you and your family.
I want to encourage you with this poem I wrote a while back when the Lord was refreshing me and bringing me deeper than I’d ever been before that point:
“Strong Fire Burn!”
Strong fire burn afresh in me
Ignite me anew, Father, for Thee
Consume me with Thy joyous fire
That only Thee shall I desire
Strong fire burn afresh in me
Strong fire burn for souls far lost
To engage them, God, at any cost
Grant me Thine heart, oh Lord
To rescue men from Thy wrathful sword
Strong fire burn afresh in me
Strong fire burn for Thy Presence Divine
My desire’s much more than to be “just fine”
Full baptism of fire and nothing less
Enter Thy true Sabbath of rest
Strong fire burn afresh in me
Strong fire burn for determinate trust
Believing His promise is truly a must
Receiving His love is only by faith
Nothing you do can merit His grace
Strong fire burn afresh in me
Strong fire burn for perseverance in faith
It’s easy to burn for just a moment in haste
Consistence in Him, set my face like a flint (Isa. 50:7-9)
Trash all distractions, not even a hint!
Strong fire burn afresh in me
So, oh Lord, let Thy true fire burn
Teach me, Yahweh, I want to learn
How to live out Thy ways in Spirit and Truth
And be obedient to death, Lord only for You
-Glenn B.
May 28th, 2008 @ 11:46 pm
Dr Brown
Im realizing the posts are becoming more and more one sided(not that it is necessarily wrong).I wanted to ask you if i can bring one of my good friends into the discussion.His name is James.He has been to the Florida meetings and also has been in the out pouring at MorningStar almost every night.So i think his thoughts would be helpful in bringing some balance at the same time provide insights and probably expose things too.
If it is okay i will let him know although im not sure if he would be comfortable(i havent been in touch with him several months due to all the happenings).It will be really good if he gets involved.
Moderator- can you delete this post and also Dr Browns reply with my reply back after .Thanks.
May 28th, 2008 @ 11:50 pm
>unless the point of the message was that we need to call on angels to do the fighting.
“That’s exactly the point of his message. He calls on them for money too.”
“Regarding point 5, yes, the point of the message, as Bill noted, is that we call on angels to do the fighting for us.”
Sorry to disagree, but there is not one thing in there about calling on angels to do our fighting for us. He never says that. He is giving a few experiences with angels and he IS talking about recognizing angelic activity in our behalf in accordance with Hebrews 1:14 and “thank you God for our angels.” He is attempting to bring an awareness of that activity on our behalf in my opinion.
And as Dr. Brown said, there is certainly scriptural support for angels fighting on our behalf.
With all due respect to everyone here, but I have found it necessary not to take anyone’s word where accusations against Todd are concerned, but to listen to or read the material referred to find out for myself what is being said. I recognize that one’s opinion of these things tend to color what one hears is being said. I also recognize that my tendency toward mercy can color my view also. But if I am going to err about something, I would rather err on the side of mercy rather than judgment and accusation.
Dr. Brown taught a great lesson this past Sunday on “How to have a glowing spirit” that deals with some of these things. I think everyone who has posted in this thread should listen to it. It can be found here under Sunday’s sermons when posted:
http://www.fire-church.org/sermons.aspx
May 29th, 2008 @ 1:15 am
Brian,
Thanks again for your imput. And although you seem to disagree with me here on a few points – I’m still praying for you and your family, that the Lord would continue to burn in your midst.
Like I’ve said before, I have nothing against Todd personally, nor do I have anything against you personally. I love you as my brother and I pray for you. And our ministry prays for Todd and for what is happening at Lakeland, that His name would be glorified, that His best would come out of it, that any false spirits would be exposed and eradicated, and that whatever falsehood is being taught would be brought to light and corrected. Also, I don’t necessarily disagree with everything happening at Lakeland, I just have A LOT of caution regarding just throwing myself into something that puts checks in my spirit, seems to contradict the Word and seemingly goes against the thrust of New Testament revival. Plus, Todd has A LOT of prosperity teaching under his belt that is clearly unbiblical. If you wish to listen to a clip of it go here: http://www.paulferree.com/audio and click on the last link “Todd Bentley Audio mp3″. It’s about 20 minutes long and gives a good dose of what Todd is about in terms of money. If you want the full length clip you can search for it at freshfire.ca.
He also says he has angels that get him money, etc. – Just an unhealthy, unbiblical focus on money. He even says that when he needs a financial breakthrough… well, here, this is from his 2003 article entitled “Angelic Hosts”: “So when I need a financial breakthrough I don’t just pray and ask God for my financial breakthrough. I go into intercession and become a partner with the angels by petitioning the Father for the angels that are assigned to getting me money: “Father, give me the angels in heaven right now that are assigned to get me money and wealth. And let those angels be released on my behalf. Let them go into the four corners of the earth and gather me money.”
In the same article he says, “Emma (his money angel) carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people… Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands!…”
Do you see what I mean? Check out the audio, it’s worse – it’s frightening.
There are many other reasons why I’m cautious and I think that others should be too. I don’t doubt that God is touching you and your family from what you’ve said and I praise God for that. I REALLY do! I believe that if people are hungry for God and seeking after Him then He’ll touch them, regardless of the ‘minister’.
With regard to the angelic hosts issue, you stated, “…but there is not one thing in there about calling on angels to do our fighting for us. He never says that.”
Todd’s words: “We do not battle against flesh and blood, WE DO NOT BATTLE WITH DEMONIC POWERS, the angelic hosts do.” This is as clear as noon-day, unless you can shed some light on what he means by “we DO NOT battle with demonic powers, the angelic hosts do” as he made clear reference to Eph 6:12 by prefacing it with “we do not battle against flesh and blood…” Please consider this brother, seriously. Hey, I’m willing to change my concern about that, but as it stands that is too clear. Also, of course, I do agree that angelic hosts obviously battle with demonic forces according to clear passages in the Word; yes, amen.
You also stated, “I would rather err on the side of mercy rather than judgment and accusation.” I see your point and to a degree I agree. However, I would rather take much caution about somthing the puts checks in my spirit so I can pray, seek God, and do more research on it, than throw myself into something that could be damaging to me, my family or to others. Hey brother, I want the Lord and His presence at least as much as you do and I cry out to Him for revival often, with tears and groanings (our whole fellowship does!); I’m THIRSTY for more of HIM! I want SO BADLY to see His glory cover the earth as the waters cover the sea (I’m JEALOUS for His glory!). But if something seems to me to go against His Testimony, I’m not going to throw caution to the wind and dive in without much prayer and consideration on the matter. Plus, I must voice my concerns for the Body to consider as much as I have the ability to (in my spheres of influence) so that they can pray and search the Word about it too and come to their own conclusions. Do you see where I’m coming from?
Also, thank you for the note about Dr. Brown’s recent message, I’ll check it out and let the Lord search my heart; I really will. I’m open to being corrected by the Lord brother, I am indeed.
I’ll leave it there for now.
Grace to you.
May 29th, 2008 @ 1:30 am
Hey Brian, it looks like Dr. Brown’s message is not posted yet. I’ll keep checking back. Thanks again!
Glenn
May 29th, 2008 @ 8:58 am
I’ve seen people use the common arguments that Todd doesn’t talk about angels in the meetings now but only about Jesus to justify everything is okay, I wish I could say that is right but it doesn’t work that way. Again before going into this I want to bring a balance saying that lets us not jump to conclusions prematurely about Todd but rather let time produce its fruit (also see earlier posts). However do whatever the Lord tells you to do at this time for yourself and those under your influence.
. Any way the reason was not to focus on that and try and bring error but to help us see my earlier point.
Lets say that what somebody has been doing is wrong and he finds himself in a crowd that says he is wrong so just because he plays along with the crowd in saying what they want to hear doesn’t mean he has changed.
There are so much spiritual implications to this.
If we would have followed Todd’s ministry earlier almost everything was centered on angles and supernatural visitations. As a matter of fact just before the revival Todd said “God told me Todd you got to get people to believe in the angel (Emma), they believe in Jesus but they aren’t seeing the supernatural because they don’t believe in the angelic realm”. Now I might have paraphrased these words but that is the main content of what he said. Please don’t ask me were it is as probably by now it is deleted or edited. You just got to use discernment to see if am telling the truth
Ill-use an extreme example to show this lets say a pastor is living in adultery and he finds himself in a crowd that is leaned towards Holiness. So just because he talks on Holiness doesn’t mean that everything is fine. If he has lustful spirits with him he will release it over the entire congregation. And get this guys not everyone will fall into adultery or sin in the congregation but the ones that are very open and weak and for whatever other reason they will fall into sin. I can give several examples.
William Branham in one of his meetings called a young man from India by the name Paulo C Lorry (I tried yahoo search so that you guys could see more details but I couldn’t find anything on him). He laid hands on him and prophesied over him that God was going to use him mightiliy. Believe me guys and I have talked with Lorry’s close associate (the associate is still alive in his 90’s) about more things .God used this young man mightily. Limbs and legs would just grow in his meetings; he had authority over the natural elements. I could tell stories on that. However his life ended the same way as William Branham.He started teaching false doctrines and till now there is a sect in India who worships him just like they do Branham. (Now in saying this am not implying that they (Branham and Lorry) did not repent before they died.
If that is not convincing I can give an example from my own life in ministry and also examples from seeing people ministering firsthand.
Just because we see the person in front not at error at the moment doesn’t mean that everything is fine. Life and doctrine are important and when hands or laid on people and when ministry is done whatever is behind the person would be released over everybody.You dont just get a tiny part of gift,the whole package comes with it.
William Branham imparted something to lorry when he prayed and with it he imparted his shortcomings or spirits or whatever you call them.
So when people are voicing their concerns lets not just ignore it saying everything is alright now. It doesn’t work that way. If something is out of whack in Todd it will be released over everybody who is open to him and just because he seems okay now doesn’t mean everything is fine. I do agree that a lot of times people say the right thing with a wrong spirit, however I really feel too much is at stake right now and little is being done in that regard!!!
I pray for God to give us specific discernment!!
May 29th, 2008 @ 9:02 am
changes
(You dont just get a tiny part of gift,the whole package comes with it)
You dont just get a tiny part or just the gift,the whole package comes with it
i wonder why the simley didnt show up!!!
May 29th, 2008 @ 10:50 am
Dr Brown,
What of the teaching that angels take us to the tree of life? Is that not near blasphemous?
Also, in reguards to Eph 6:12, our battle is against demonic powers… but our weapons are clearly listed in the rest of the chapter.
Angels are our allies and co-servants of the almighty, but they are not our healer, priest or savior against the enemy.
Thoughts?
May 29th, 2008 @ 10:55 am
Also,
Just as the teaching doesn’t invalidate the outpouring, neither does the outpouring validate or give amnesty to the teaching.
I agree, we should not be quick to deny the moving of the spirit, but neither should we be quick to ignor destructive doctrines for the sake of the movement. We should be willing to shine light on false teachings, even if it is not received.
And as always, the truth is seen as hate by those who hate the truth.
May 29th, 2008 @ 11:11 am
what spirit is motivating this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_K8XjObzfXM
May 29th, 2008 @ 11:24 am
Phil
Did the people get healed?simth wiggelsworth used some unorthodox methods you know?
May 29th, 2008 @ 12:05 pm
so? completely irrelivant, i don’t care if smith wigglesworth was a violent man or not, that was over 100 years ago, and history can be easily distorted.
if todd is a wicked man and allows evil spirits to inspire violence in his meetings, who is questioning?
by his own admission, he kick an elderly lady in the face and she got knocked out…. where were the men of integrity at that meeting to challenge him, or to defend the chinesse pastor from getting tackled and have his tooth knocked out?
i dont think the lady or the pastor found it funny, this is quite repulsive, this is not the moving of God, it don’t care how many claim they have goose bumps and glittery hands, violence is violence & not a fruit fo the holy spirit
May 29th, 2008 @ 12:31 pm
Hey phil
im saying that only to say we cant disqualify somebody by just what they do.im not saying that it was right and there was a reason behind me asking if the people were healed.
If you have specific discernment on what Todd operates under then that is different but we cant judge by just actions.
Look at Elisha he turned around and cursed the youngmen(kids) that made fun of him and a bear came and ate them.Howmany of us today would find that entertaining?Or is there an arguement that Elisha was wrong or said it under the wrong spirit?
These types of ministering was common in the healing movements and God healed people through those methods(again im not justifying todd’s actions).
One time Mariah wood worth etter took the bible while ministering to a boy with a big tumor and said “let us cut it with the sword of the Spirit” and she did just that “whacked the boy in the neck” and the boy was insatntly helaed with tumor falling off with no trace.
Jack Coe used to pluck tumors out of people!!
Paulo C Lorry employed that a lot too and people were healed.
In these cases of healings the end result was people were healed and God was glorified
May 29th, 2008 @ 1:51 pm
So, the logical question to ask, following the last two posts is this…Was the elderly woman healed? And what about the Chinese Pastor?
May 29th, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
Yes
) that he dedicated his life to Christ and later became a preacher.
The little boy was so transformed by that experience(Etter whacking him
I wonder if he is still alive!!
May 29th, 2008 @ 2:18 pm
My discernment is that he brags about kicking an old lady in the nose with cowbow boots, resulting in her passing out.
He brags about knocking a tooth out of a chinesse pastor while tackling him.
No need for mystical prophetic discernment. The bible is clear, gentleness and self control are fruits of the spirit.
May 29th, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
OK, so in the incidents that John cites with Maria Woodworth Etter and others, the end result (although unorthodox methods were used) was that the people were healed.
My follow-up question was meant to ascertain whether healing was evident in those people (that Phil mentined) who TB “ministered (?)” to.
I cannot imagine the love of God being manifested by kicking an old woman in the face or knocking out a Pastor’s tooth…if those things are true, it doesn’t seem a fit thing to brag about. I remember getting a call, years ago, from my fiancee’ and in the course of the call he told me that mutual friends of ours had just had an argument, during the argument, the boyfriend kicked the girlfriend in the face with steel-toed boots…that was physical assault, nothing less…do we call it something else just because it happens on a stage in front of an audience? And just because the perpetrator has a Rev. in front of his name? I don’t think so…I hope it didn’t happen, so sad if it’s true. You’re right, Phil…gentleness and self-control…
May 29th, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
Lisa
people were not just healed (in the healing renewals and Etters minsitry) in many cases transformed totally by the power of God like the little boy becoming a preacher and testifying later that moment was very influential in his life
Phil
That is a lot different from saying Todd is operating under an evil spirit.
Im not saying you said that but the question (if todd is a wicked man and allows evil spirits to inspire violence in his meetings, who is questioning?)
defiently brings that out.
On a general note,
Here are the questions i ask myself when some clipping or recording of some one is brought from the past.
Is this recent or a long time back?
Did the person repent of his mistakes or did he not later?
What is the current trend in his ministry?Is he the same?
To give an example,ive followed bennyhinn’s minsitries from the late 80′s till recently.
during those times benny hinn taught some crazy stuff which he repented of publically.
repented of his love for money publically .
Now if we are watching his clip from 15 years back and he is wrong then we cant judge him based on that.
Now i know it is difficult to find clippings on repentance as much as the wrong stuff is taught.
However my point is we need to take a lot of things into perspective before coming to a conclusion and ofcourse the witness of the Spirit in our consience.We cant just use one clipping or video.
John
May 29th, 2008 @ 3:21 pm
John…
My questions themselves, only concerened the results of Todd Bentley’s ministry with the two individuals that were named…If anyone knows if these people were better as a result of what happened, it would be interesting to know.
I’m very familiar with Maria Woodworth Etter’s ministry, in fact, one of her books is near by bedside as I was reading it again just a couple of weeks ago
May 29th, 2008 @ 6:45 pm
I watched Todd boasting about whacking the elderly lady in the face with his ‘biker boots’, knocking that man’s tooth out, etc (a laughing about it along with the rest of the crowd). I am curious what happened with them – if anyone knows. That poor guy lost a tooth over it… wow. And after knocking him to the ground and putting his tooth out (glady and boastfully) he started chocking the guy’s neck and shaking him, supposedly ‘commanding demons out’.
So, yeah, if anyone hears what happened with those people who were “ministered too” by Todd, please let me know too.
Thanks.
May 29th, 2008 @ 6:57 pm
Correction: “(and laughing about it…)” as opposed to “(a laughing about it…)”.
May 29th, 2008 @ 7:13 pm
You know, to be transparent about something, I have a REALLY hard time even entertaining the idea that these people were ministered to by God. But for the sake of being open to what God might want to do… I am REALLY curious what happend to those people. I really want to know if it produced a changed life in them; holiness, new birth, passion for the lost to repent and know Jesus.
I’ll tell you, my initial reaction to what Todd was boasting and laughing about is to cry my eyes out because people are being deceived… I so want in my heart for this to of God, but everything inside of me (and in the Word) is telling me that masses of people are being deceived by this man and are receiving impartations of the demonic. I’m still praying and seeking God about it and I’m still open to reasoning and hearing other sides. It’s just… that our ministry is receiving reports of people who are damaged by this man and his teachings (first hand reports) (ones that I can not publish because of privacy; let me look into asking if I can publish some under a unanimous name or even under the real name; I’ll get back to you all on that). I know and understand that God touches people (like the brother Brian Parkman) when they are hungry for God, but in general it doesn’t look good.
In prayer, seeking God, praying for everyone involved…,
Your brother,
Glenn
May 29th, 2008 @ 8:52 pm
Thanks Lisa.
May 29th, 2008 @ 10:30 pm
From Jim Drown’s website:
God is showing up in Lakeland, Florida. In April at the beginning of this outpouring, Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries had a visitation of the Winds of Change angel. This angel had appeared in the 40s and 50s Voice of Healing revivals
Jim Drown, a Fresh Fire associate from Atlanta, had a powerful encounter with this same angel while traveling back to Atlanta after being in the meetings with Todd. This angel declared, “I am the winds of change. I am going to be squeezed in Lakeland until I shoot up into the stratosphere where I will burst like a firework and fall down over the whole earth in facets and dimensions.” Jim was so affected that he stopped the car and headed back to the meetings.
May 29th, 2008 @ 11:21 pm
Guys
I do see what you said is happening and it is terrible.As a matter of fact if somebody dosent intervene quickly the consequences are going to be far worse.
However again here is some perspective.
This didnt start of like this, God was in this thing in the beginning .However the false assumption that it is a great revival and the leaders blessing it was what i think was the beggining of the decline.This did not have the spritual foundation or the structure to go through the test of revival and this has given place to a lot of doors for the enemy to come in.
Again let us not label Todd into anything yet.That is up to God to do that and i really think Todd is somebody who is hungry for God and the supernatural and has some serious issues as some of us have.I also think lack of repentance in some of these areas has worsened it even more.
So many minsitries have blessed this without giving second thought to it and I really fear that this is going to be a terrible blow to the body when everything comes to the light!!
Let us keep praying for God’s best to still come through all of this!!
John
May 30th, 2008 @ 1:32 am
Is it just me… or is there a whole of “preaching to the choir” going on here? Please don’t take me wrong… I believe that you folks do love the Lord and desire that God is glorified and that His church is not deceived…
BUT…
I just know that the Bible says that we will be judged for every idle word and where there are many words, sin does abound…
Please take this seriously… At a certain point, is it even profitable to keep on speaking negative things about someone, even if they are true???
Saying things like, “Oh Todd is hungry for the Lord, BUT” and they day after day keep finding more and more juicy negative stuff about him. It’s like everyday I see some new bad thing about Todd… and it’s basically the SAME people sharing the SAME type of information AMONGST THEMSELVES…
It’s like… yes, let’s just see what new bad thing we can find to say about this person for the umpteenth time. Oh and then after we say this bad stuff about this person, let’s remember to tell everyone to pray for him? ‘kay?
At first, people are sharing view points, and now it has mostly become the same folks hanging out to swap how bad this or that is.
Please hear my heart here. Text is not the best medium to express this… again I’m sure you guys just want what is best… but words are powerful and God sees every one of them. I am not perfect either and this is a reminder to me as well.
“When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable,But he who restrains his lips is wise.” —Prov. 10:19
May 30th, 2008 @ 1:43 am
Oh… and please don’t be hasty to respond to what I said above. I’m not looking to debate with anyone on this. Just think about it.
Really.
May 30th, 2008 @ 2:51 am
Thank you Asha, I will certainly keep that in mind. In fact, it is interesting that you post this because as I was in prayer earlier today the Lord spoke to me afresh about being slow to speak, slow to anger and quick to listen (I was enjoying His presence and weeping at the love of His firm cousel in my heart – He’s an awesome Father! The BEST.).
In the past (when I was first filled with the Spirit) I used to be very unreasonable and stubborn and thought I had all the answers (the “Truth” was all that mattered, you know?). Of course, the Lord quickly (and thank God it was quickly) broke me and broke me and broke me again in His love and taught me many things and revealed many areas of my heart that was proud and hardened. I still find myself today with tendencies to want to be quick to speak… and just this past week I asked our fellowship pray for me to make sure that I didn’t give in to being unreasonable and hasty in my speach. Another Scripture that really speaks to my heart always about that is 2 Timothy 2:24-26, “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with GENTLENESS correcting those who are in opposition…”
I’m sorry for being long-winded here, but another passage that the Lord has really been teaching all of us here in our fellowship is Ephesians chapter 4. We all live together, so let me tell you :0) it really gets down to the depths of who you are and rips out all the junk (you can’t hide anything…). It gets into the NIT and GRIT of everyday living together and breaks you before the Lord like nothing else!… Praise God! :0D
So anyway, Ephesians 4:2-3 has been CRITICAL:
“…with all HUMILITY and GENTLENESS, with PATIENCE, showing tolerance for one another in love, being DILIGENT to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.”
With that said, I really do appreciate your counsel and I receive it.
With that in mind, please allow me to encourage you with something as well. Since you really don’t know the different spheres of influence that everyone involved in this forum has and you really don’t know how many people actually look at this page every day, it is quite possibly not a good idea to suggest that we are “preaching to the choir” as we discuss these issues in this specific forum with this specific medium. Like I said, simply due to the fact that you are unaware of what I mentioned.
God bless you,
Glenn
May 30th, 2008 @ 7:42 am
Asha
Here are a few questions to think about?
1)When does a person need to be quiet and when does he need to start talking about these things?
i do agree that you can become overly critical talking about these things and there needs to be repentance if that is the case.However what one percieves as wrong to do might not necessarily be wrong for the other.Its ones consience that needs to be answerable to God.
2)Do we need to hold an office in a church or pulpit to expose the deeds of darkness or simply shine light on it when you see it?
3)Some of the concerns presented here are not a joke or a matter to be taken lightly then in that case do you just ignore it?
4)What if you dont speak out and God judges you for that?
Just as our God is merciful and Loving,He is Righteous and Holy and believe me He will not tolerate His name being defiled for long!!
5)There are errors on both sides at the end of the day,however is it for us to choose the better path or should we just leave it to God?
Let us walk in Love and in the Fear of the Lord!!!!
May 30th, 2008 @ 9:43 am
One last thing… then I am going to just excuse myself from all of this…
I understand that many people may be reading these blog comments, but check it out…there are over 320 responses done so far! Basically, I think people have ALREADY read PLENTY of responses and “concerns” being brought forth.
I think that if we have a viewpoint, we share it. It’s fine. At a certain point, for me, I get to point of “Hey, I’ve said what I have had to say and brought forth my reasoning. Now, it’s between the person and God with what they do with it.”
Again, plenty has ALREADY been said here. Is it necessary to bring out some new thing bad about Todd everyday? Does it become overkill at a certain point?
May 30th, 2008 @ 9:57 am
Asha
I do agree there is a lot of wisdom in what you are saying!
Yes there is a certain point that we need to stop unless God says otherwise.
Also i think if people are stumbling across something,it is a surprise and shock and they are in the process of trying to understand what is going on,trying to process things.
I think that is one of the main reasons for the forum,were we process things together and learn.When that happens there is always going to be excesses and if we dont want that then how can we learn or grow?
I think it is a difficult balance to strike.
John
May 30th, 2008 @ 10:23 am
Thats why your opinion and others like you are helpful to bring that balance.However we cant take two extremes,one of which is totally stop!!
May 30th, 2008 @ 11:15 am
Here’s a timely article from J. Lee Grady (editor of Charisma).
The Lakeland Revival has created tensions over doctrine and ministry styles. To
avoid a crippling rift in the church we need strong leadership, clear
discernment and a lot of love.
Revival is messy. As much as we would love for it to come in a neat and orderly
package, history teaches us that outbreaks of the Holy Spirit are often
accompanied by holy chaos. There may be conversions and healings in one corner
and demonic manifestations in the other. In seasons of revival you can have
miracles and mayhem. Holiness and heresy can erupt simultaneously.
When we look at the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the book of Acts, we
tend to focus on the positives: Dead people were raised, whole villages were
saved and prison doors were opened supernaturally. On the flip side, this same
revival season was interrupted by riots, opposed by religious legalists and
tainted by false prophets, greedy charlatans and demons masquerading as angels.
Why must revival movements be so muddled? Perhaps it is because imperfect people
(as well as sinister devils) get involved. Strange things happen when God’s
power touches a sinful earth.
When revival hit Wales in 1904, almost an entire nation bowed before Jesus
within two years. Yet the weight of God’s presence drove the revival’s humble
leader, Evan Roberts, into depression. Meanwhile author Jessie Penn-Lewis,
writing in her book War on the Saints, suggested that fleshly manifestations in
Welsh prayer meetings had snuffed out the Spirit’s power.
In our nation today thousands have been swept into the current of the Lakeland
Revival in Florida, which began in early April in evangelist Todd Bentley’s
meetings at Ignited Church. The fervor quickly spread because of God TV’s
broadcasts, and today up to 10,000 gather nightly at a venue near the city’s
airport. In recent days, people who were touched in Lakeland have started
similar meetings in Atlanta, Chicago, Charlotte N.C. and other cities. Bentley
and his colleagues believe this is the beginning of a worldwide healing revival
that will cover the globe.
But not everyone in the charismatic/Pentecostal community is convinced. Some say
this is the last end-time revival while others maintain it is a demonic
counterfeit. Cult-watchers and anti-heresy bloggers post Bentley’s comments on
YouTube as evidence of a theological scandal. Revival advocates respond by
posting documented evidence of healings. It all begins to resemble a childish
competition.
Still others worry that Lakeland represents a questionable mixture of truth and
error. Since the initial eruption of the revival, my inbox has been full of
messages from charismatic leaders who are concerned about weighty issues as well
as trivial ones: Everything from Bentley’s tattoos and body piercings to his
claim that he once interviewed the apostle Paul in heaven.
When I wrote an article in mid-May calling for scrutiny of some aspects of the
Lakeland Revival, I was labeled a Pharisee and a “religious policeman.” People
who said they had been deeply impacted by the Holy Spirit in Lakeland used
spiritual threats and harsh terms to tell me that I had become the enemy.
I refuse to go on the defensive, and if I need to retract any statement I’ve
ever made about this revival I will. But what these nasty exchanges have shown
me is that a divisive spirit is certainly at work in our midst—and we need
urgent prayer to short-circuit what the devil wants to do.
When the early church was hit with the issue of Jewish legalism, Paul and
Barnabas determined that the answer was to seek the counsel of “the apostles and
elders” in Jerusalem (Acts 15:2, NASB). The church was being divided because the
legalists were insisting that gentiles be circumcised. But when the elders
looked into the matter, the apostle James settled the dispute by issuing this
wise ruling:
“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God
from among the Gentiles, but that we write to them that they abstain from things
contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from
blood” (v. 19-20). In other words, James affirmed the gentiles’ access to
salvation and overturned the legalists’ bad doctrine.
Based on this biblical example, I am appealing to the elders in our movement. We
need to hear from them in this hour. In a desperate moment we need older,
seasoned veterans to release the counsel of the Lord.
Today the charismatic movement has become fractured, and opposing camps have
formed. On one side there are those in the apostolic camp who tend to emphasize
biblical order, proper church government, spiritual warfare and the reformation
of society. On the other side are those in the prophetic camp who focus on
miracles, healing, mystical experiences and the reclaiming of all the
supernatural manifestations of the New Testament.
Both of these camps are contending for valid, biblical truths. We need the
prophetic and the apostolic! We need miracles as much as we need healthy church
growth and societal change. Yet if we do not have a holy intervention, we could
bite and devour one another—and cancel out our collective impact.
A biblical council must include the leaders of both of these camps. And leaders
must address all of the difficult issues triggered by the Lakeland Revival.
Those include:
1. Biblical guidelines about angels. Some people in the prophetic camp speak of
frequent visits to heaven, “third heaven revelations,” and long conversations
with angels who use names such as Emma, Promise and Winds of Change. Are these
indeed spirits sent from God, or agents of false light?
2. A proper theology of the dead. Some in the prophetic camp claim they have had
conversations with dead Christians—including Paul the apostle. Is this within
the bounds of Christian experience, or is it necromancy?
3. Pastoral guidance about exotic spiritual manifestations. In some circles in
our movement, unusual signs and wonders have been reported in church
services—including the sudden appearance of gold dust, feathers, gemstones and
oil. At the same time, worshipers are vibrating on the floor, jerking
uncontrollably and acting intoxicated. How can we protect people from the abuse
of manifestations, and from demonic influence, while at the same time leaving
room for genuine encounters with God?
4. Clear guidelines concerning the restoration of fallen ministers. The
appearance of one prominent fallen evangelist, Paul Cain, at the Lakeland
Revival in May unleashed strong reactions from many sectors of the church. Many
people feel unprotected when they sense that church leaders have chosen not to
enforce proper discipline for a minister’s unbiblical behavior. In this
adulterous generation, how can we draw lines to protect congregations while at
the same time offer healing and grace to a repentant preacher?
These are some of the crucial questions we face as a movement. May we proceed
with a fresh gift of discernment, while at the same time laying hold of all the
blessings that revival will bring us.
J. Lee Grady is the editor of Charisma.
May 30th, 2008 @ 1:18 pm
Just as many “concerns” have been brought up about lakeland, so many “concerns” have been brought up about the criticism.
In fact, I was open and hopeful about TB and I came (though divine help I believe) the youtube video (it is fairly recent). That video is evidence that SHOULD be shown to anyone interested or curious about lakeland.
John, the “balance” we need is to reject the false doctrine and abusive/violent behavior being displayed. We love and pray for Todd, he is not the enemy!!! But we cannot wink at his actions and doctrine.
May 31st, 2008 @ 12:18 am
Also when people see error in the way a person presents the truth they tend to go to the other extreme of totally negating it.
Joel 2, Dreams, visions and prophecy are for today!!!
One of the main purposes of the enemy in misrepresenting Gods truth is not just to mislead the people who receive that but to close the hearts of the people to the real truth by their overreacting.
May 31st, 2008 @ 12:53 am
Well said, John. This is why I really appreciated what Dutch Sheets had to say. When a respected voice declares both that God does heal and that accountability needs to be sought after by those that have a healing gift, it becomes easier for us that are tired of the false hype to feel okay about seeking after the authentic gift from God.
May 31st, 2008 @ 1:14 am
Lisa,
This is Eric McCoy, Dr. Brown’s assistant. Could you please email me at ministry@icnministries.org?
Thanks,
Eric
May 31st, 2008 @ 9:16 am
Lisa,
Please report to the principal’s office.
May 31st, 2008 @ 1:04 pm
Lisa,
Thanks for posting that article by J. Lee Grady. It is my understanding that Paul Cain’s homosexual behavior and alcoholism are fairly recent activities. Furthermore it is my understanding that several notable ministers really tried to help restore him to no avail and a warning from these ministers was issued that he did not submit to the restoration process nor did he give up these abominations. Is this the type of message that Lakeland is sending, that a homosexual still has a place of prominence in the body because of his past ministry. Furthermore I have a feeling that over 90% or better of everyone that watched Paul Cain on the revival had no idea of his recent homosexual sins. I have talked to some of my friends who are fanatically keeping up with the revival and they had never even heard of Paul Cain. Is it just me or is something really really wrong with this picture. Does anyone have any feedback concerning this perhaps and angle that I am not seeing?
May 31st, 2008 @ 1:37 pm
The Let us reason apologetics website has done a very nice job comparing three different versions of Todd Bentley’s Angelic Pillar of Fire story, and has found some rather interesting discrepancies in the three stories. Regardless of how you mught feel about this resource, in this case they simply have provided transcripts of the three accounts. The obvious conclusion is that Todd Bentley just makes it up as he goes.
Some have problems believing his fantastic stories – perhaps because of theological reasons – but I think more important is the question: Is he just telling tall tales to gain attention and validation?
That report is here:
http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain39.htm
So I took it upon myself to reveiw another Todd Bentley angel stories.
In his 2003 teaching on angelic visitations, archived on Patty King’s website, he states:
I first saw the angel called Healing Revival on December 5 of 2000 in Grant’s Pass. The angel came to me again in Albany the next February. He stood in the church service with his body going through the ceiling of the church. Then the Lord told me the angel’s name and that he was the same angel I saw in Grant’s Pass earlier. God also revealed to me that this angel was involved in the ministry of John Lake, William Branham, and John Knox in Scotland. This angel, the Lord said, is from the North West Healing Revival and is manifesting again as a sign that God is restoring the Voice of Healing revival and opening up the ancient wells.
http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html
However, in the circa 2004 video from TACF, he states that during the February 2001 Albany visitation, God told him that the angel he had seen in 1998 was the same as the angel “healing revival” that he had seen in Grants Pass- Dec 5,2000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
timestamp starting at 4:39
So in the 2004 version he tells us he first saw this angel in 1998 (having been made aware that it was the same angel in 2001- God told him) yet in the 2003 version he tells us that he first saw this angel in 2000.
I have long maintained that he has been telling these angel stories so that he can claim that he has Branham’s and Lake’s personal angel- validating his own ministry.
As wacky as his ‘angelology” seems to be, I guess it no longer is important, if these tales are total fabrications.
Quoting a freind “Oh my, if he can’t even tell the details or major facts of such an important (to him) spiritual experience the same way, who in the world would trust him to tell the truth on anything?
May 31st, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
Daniel
Rick Joyner has two posts(comments) on that,one earlier and another more recent.
Jack Deere’s site has also some information.
These were the people Paul Cain was accountable to earlier.
Charisma magazine carried two articles on that recently.
Also see what Paul Cain said himself after everything.
I dont know if you will be able to find all the information,also you will have have to wade through some of the contradictions and decide for yourself
May 31st, 2008 @ 7:24 pm
Hi,
I am well aware of the fall of Paul Cain; however, does anyone know if he has been restored? I have not heard anything too recently. I am of the opinion that if he has truly repented and been restored that there is no problem with him being in leadership. I may be ignorant of what is happening however.
Also, I did not have the opportunity to watch but, was he ministering to people or was he simply attending to receive from God? I guess that would make a big difference too.
Thanks-Jenn
May 31st, 2008 @ 8:50 pm
Just thought I’d post this testimony of an acquaintance of mine who has been watching the outpouring in Lakeland for several weeks.
________________
“I am changing.
Watching the revival, for me, has been like a long, refreshing drink of water….
The church I attend is a seeking church, hungry for more of God… but I have let myself become weary…. not sure why… just so tired of waiting and aching for the Lord to show up in alllll His glory… so that none remain standing, not even the hardest of hearts….
I find myself softening, almost like I had put up a wall because I was tired of waiting, hoping….
The revival is like putting a banquet in front of a starving person – I’ve always hungered and thirsted for God… that has been the beatitude that has pushed me … I determined to never be satisfied, because for me, satisfaction meant drifting into complacency… I’ll never get enough of God, of His presence, of His holiness…. of HIM!!! Each day brings fresh hunger, I cannot be satisfied with yesterday’s manna.
The revival is fresh manna, fresh water.
I find myself feeling embarrassed watching idle tv shows that before would have been mildly amusing but now are offensive to the Holy Spirit in me.
I’m changing.
Praise His Holy Name.
I’m changing.
Yes, Lord, More of YOU!
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!”
May 31st, 2008 @ 9:30 pm
Jenn,
I think a discussion on Paul Cain is not that pertinent to the “outpouring.”
While giving an odd prophecy to an intern about the “romace of a lifetime,” he did make the statement that he had been celibate or chaste all his life. After that, he was not allowed back on the platform. That was encouraging.
Here’s a detailed report with links to source materials.
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com/2008/05/return-of-paul-cain.html
-Bill
May 31st, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
Cool testimony Brian. I’m curious (for the sake of my own research and doing my best to discern what God may be doing), did you or the person who wrote that testimony have any contact with Todd himself (hands laid on, words of knowledge, prophecy, etc; i.e., direct contact with Todd)? Or did you (and the other person who wrote that testimony) just go there hungry for the Lord and He touched you?
Thanks for your imput!
Glenn
May 31st, 2008 @ 10:06 pm
Glenn,
I have been watching the outpouring almost from the beginning. God began to do a work in me and stir me through it from just watching. Before I went I had not had any contact with Todd. I just saw God was moving and went there hungry for the Lord as you said. Then I actually went to the meeting and Todd laid hands on me every night, for three nights. The third night was the most powerful. The power of God came into the building probably as strong if not stronger than I have ever witnessed and felt in my life (I turned to the person next to me and said, “This is the raw power of God”), and there was a definite work done in me that night that I was actually aware of happening. I literally could feel the power of God in my bones, like electricity, and I have never experienced that before and I have been saved and filled with the Spirit 31 years this September.
The testimony of my friend has come from just watching it on TV. She hasn’t been to a meeting.
May 31st, 2008 @ 10:42 pm
Interesting. Thank you.
May 31st, 2008 @ 10:51 pm
John,
I had several things in mind, but just bringing it all to the Lord in prayer. Thanks for your imput.
-Glenn
p.s. – my last post at 10:42pm (“Interesting. Thank you.” ) was directed toward Brian.
May 31st, 2008 @ 10:58 pm
Moderator: please remove that smiley face on my last post, it was supposed to be a “)”
Brian,
Can you please email me at GlennAlanBolan@gmail.com?
Thanks.
May 31st, 2008 @ 11:43 pm
Hey folks,
Just a quick reminder that this is not the place to discuss Paul Cain (or any other minister) and their restoration (or lack thereof). I see that that has already been recognized, but I post this as a reminder. Of course, I do understand how the question came up and it is certainly a fair question to ask (in terms of whether someone who fell was properly restored), but again, I encourage everyone to stay with the topic of this particular thread.
Thanks!
June 1st, 2008 @ 12:58 am
Hey John,
I just wanted to encourage you – I didn’t think your post was irrelevant or anything. In fact, I’m glad you gave your imput and brought up those ideas. I love you brother and I’m praying for you; continue to press into Him!
Grace to you,
Glenn
June 1st, 2008 @ 1:07 am
yes glenn
.
I know it was relavent but usually when you bring truths out like that the enemy tries to battle you and it was in that context
June 1st, 2008 @ 1:58 am
cool
June 1st, 2008 @ 6:08 pm
Hey guys
This would be my last post.If God puts in your hearts pls keep us in prayer as we are going to be ministering in India shortly for some months.
As i was seeking the Lord here are some insights God gave me on these times
A prophetic picture on the coming days.
The church is in a phase of time were the wheat’s and the tares will be distinguished. Till now there has been little or no distinction between the two. The recent happenings are a sign that God is bringing in His separation between the true and the false. We would be wise to separate ourselves from all things that are of the flesh. We would be wise if we are not hasty to correct things and are quick to protect ourselves
Here are a few distinctions that will be helpful
1) Is the Spirit of Truth present amongst us? Where He is, there will be truth in the ones that speak for Him.
2) Is the Spirit of Holiness present amongst us? Where He is, there would be His fruit displayed in our lives (Love, Joy………)
This would also be a season were God will separate the wheat from the chaff in our own lives and in the lives of those who follow Him. We would do well to respond promptly to His dealings.
This will also be a season were God will raise up His true prophets and His body in general to go forth in the Spirit and power of Elijah.
In the coming days they will confront and expose the false with the supernatural power of God.
Isaiah 40:6 to8
Beloved do not despair for first deep darkness must cover the earth and then behold the Glory of the Lord will rise amongst His people.
For those who refuse to leave their sinful ways and depravity they would continue in them and get worse. For he that is sinful let him be even more sinful. Behold the deceiver has set his abode in their hearts.
Malachi 3:2 to5
The Lord intends to cleanse His temple of all filth and the days of His grace for us to change our wicked ways are coming to a close. If we had done well to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit we will not suffer loss in the coming days. Here is wisdom; purify yourselves that you be not burned. For the same fire that brings life is the same fire that will bring death.
Again you can remove this post if you want to:)
John
June 2nd, 2008 @ 1:00 am
John,
God bless you as you head to India. Are you going there to minister?
Glenn
June 2nd, 2008 @ 4:34 pm
A great christian leader is sometimes possessed by demons. But really, he is a power voice for God!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtSK9TyduR4
June 2nd, 2008 @ 10:36 pm
Phil,
Christians being delivered of demonic oppression is actually fairly normal, and nothing to be feared. For a good examination of this topic, see Neil T. Anderson’s ministry’s explanation: http://www.ficm.org/newsite/index.php?command=faqsques03
June 3rd, 2008 @ 1:01 am
Just a thought, for the purpose of not misunderstanding eachother. This can kind of get into semantics. I.e., “oppression”, “possession”, etc. If you notice, Phil and Marcus, how you just spoke past each other (to a degree) using different terms. You could be speaking about two totally different things. Possession on the one hand could be speaking of a demon dwelling in the spirit, soul or body of a man, while oppression on the other hand could simply be speaking of a demon having some sway over a certain area of one’s life, etc. Possibly two totally different things.
Anyway, it’s just a bit of imput that may be helpful.
Glenn
June 3rd, 2008 @ 8:50 am
I am wondering if either of you actually listened to what Todd said.
June 3rd, 2008 @ 12:15 pm
OK I listened to that clip about Todd’s testimony about being demon possessed. That once again raises MAJOR RED FLAGS. It is possible that at that point he had an actual deliverance and began his salvation from that point. It is possible that prior to that he had a religious experience and only thought he was saved. Perhaps God was drawing him and then in a meeting he got delivered and set free of all these demons. I beg to differ with anyone who thinks what he was talking about was simply getting free from “oppression”. Are we going to disregard I John were he speaks about overcoming the evil one. Does anyone care to interpret the following Scripture in light of this discussion:
I John 5:18
18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.
It is like saying Jesus had the power to save Todd, but did not have the power to keep Him. It sounds like the cross half way did it’s job, but you know the typical modern day church mentality puts the wisdom and power of God on the same level of man’s natural thinking. I am sorry if I sound hostile to anyone, but I am getting really indignant about all of this nonsense.
June 3rd, 2008 @ 12:50 pm
To all,
Dr. Brown feels that the main issues regarding this topic have already been posted and addressed, so we’ll be capping off this particular thread on the night of June 8th. No comments will be posted after midnight that night.
Thanks,
Marcus French
Line of Fire Moderator
June 3rd, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Bill,
“Dr. Brown,
PLEEEEEEZE dig up the audio on your teaching “Is healing for today” and post it.”
This message “Why Healing is for Today” has been posted on the ICN homepage and will be there for a couple of weeks. Here’s the direct link: http://www.icnministries.org/revolution/audioHealingForToday.htm
Eric
June 3rd, 2008 @ 4:12 pm
Very cool way to end it!!
I was afriad it might get erased ot just locked with a final comment. But giving a date in advance is a very considerate way to end the discussion.
I pray the truth spoken will take root in the those who listened.
June 3rd, 2008 @ 7:06 pm
Phil,
I did listen to what Todd said. Sounded like a deliverance experience similar to many others.
Glenn,
I’ll just quote from the link I provided earlier:
“By focusing the discussion of Satan’s influence on believers on the issue of the location of the demons — whether they are internal or external — some have needlessly polarized the Church. Conservative Christians have disagreed for years about what demons can do to believers and whether this control can extend to what we normally think of as internal functions such as thinking, feeling and motor activities. We could quote authors, cite references and debate the passages, but we don’t believe deciding the location is the critical issue.
…
Authors who advocate an external-influence-only view conclude this: “The Bible itself does not give us a full description of everything demons are capable of. Because of this lack of accurate information, plus the satanic ability to deceive, plus our own shortcomings in the area of discernment, it is likely that certain activities such as vocal chord control or even a demon throwing someone on the ground, may be caused by a demon without requiring internal habitation. (Thomas Ice and Robert Dean, Overrun by Demons, Eugene, Ore.: Harvest House, 1990, pp. 127-128.) What if these authors are correct and all control is external? You could still have a believer rolling on the ground, speaking in demonic voices, in desperate need of help.”
Daniel,
I have nothing to say that the link I provided earlier doesn’t already say.
June 3rd, 2008 @ 10:06 pm
>This message “Why Healing is for Today” has been posted on the ICN homepage and will be there for a couple of weeks. Here’s the direct link:
Awesome. I had lost my copy of this recording quite a while, although I had transcribed most of it.
Looks like the flash player on that page is paying it a 3x speed, but the actual mp3 file is just fine.
Thanks for posting it.
June 4th, 2008 @ 8:57 am
marcus,
satan and demons temp christians to sin, mind and body control over a blood washed saint is unthinkable
people please, read the bible, not charismatic propaganda
June 4th, 2008 @ 11:26 am
Phil,
While I agree with you 100%, it really does not shed much light on the issue at hand – is this a move of God, and is it to be reccomended?
Mainly because it is impossible to judge Bentley’s true state of salvation at the point of deliverance. And also because Bentley may be so confused that he cannot discern the difference between oppression and possession. It would be more profitable to review his teachings on his website and see what he is teaching.
I would hasten to add that the previously mentioned Derek Prince teaching on revival is one I very much agree with. 30 years ago Prince’s “foundation series” was of great benefit to me. But Derek Prince taught the controverisal belief that Christians could be demon possesd.
This teaching led to the deliverance movement which basically cast demons out of every thing that moved. Unbalance? Yes. Did that negate
their ministries? I don’t think so.
I concur with shutting the discussion down this week because the discussion has become too much oriented on things such as this that tell us little. It is not easy seeing the big picture.
However, discussion like thius have been useful in gaining the source material. In this movement there is so much revisionism to history. Gaining the full picture of source material is important, and requires a lot of time. Past tat, it gets hard.
June 5th, 2008 @ 9:13 am
Hi Phil,
“satan and demons temp christians to sin, mind and body control over a blood washed saint is unthinkable”
I’d like to throw out a few thoughts on this subject. I have sought answers to the question if a christian can have a demon extensively as of late. I have come to believe that it is definitely true that a christian can have a demon. For one, why would Jesus command us to cast out demons (Mt 10:8) out of unbelievers when the end result is that they will be seven times worse off afterwards (Mt 12: 43-45). That wouldn’t make sense. Also, I believe deliverance is the children’s bread (Mt 15:26) – it’s for believers and not for the unbelievers.
One thing I have learned is that we all have areas where the enemy is trying to establish lies and work in our lives. We live in a fallen world. That is why it’s so important to feed on the Word of God (I’m preaching to myself here).
Don’t mean to stirr up another discussion here, but I thought my thoughts on the topic would be helpful to someone.
June 5th, 2008 @ 9:14 am
It’s Matthew ten verse eight.
June 5th, 2008 @ 9:29 am
Blanka,
Cast the demons out AND get them saved. Its far better that way.
June 5th, 2008 @ 10:37 am
Bill,
Is there a way to download the mp3 of this message on healing today from the website?
June 5th, 2008 @ 11:49 am
Steve,
Of course there is.
Moderator,
Do you all want people to download this?
June 5th, 2008 @ 2:16 pm
I absolutely agree, Bill!!!
June 5th, 2008 @ 3:50 pm
You can download the mp3 now. http://www.icnministries.org/revolution/audioHealingForToday.htm
June 5th, 2008 @ 4:25 pm
Bianka,
Matt 10:6
June 5th, 2008 @ 4:37 pm
Marcus,
Thanks, I already knew the link, but did not want to commit internet larceny in the name of Jesus.
Dr. Brown,
Again let me say how encouraging that message is. It, and Bob Gladstones message on Isaiah 6 (When God Arises) have impacted me greatly. Thank you so much.
-Bill
June 5th, 2008 @ 5:04 pm
I’ve already expressed my concern about TB’s “angelology” and his MSoG leanings (“We don’t have to age”). A third area of concern which I would appreciate discussion on is the concept of the “anointing.”
I take the stance that anytime we relegate the Holy Spirit to an “it” we get in trouble fast. Bentley teaches that the anointing” is a substance. And as such it is something that we can “come and get some”. I simply don’t see this in the bible.
And the whole doctrinal areas of impartation and transferrence is built upon it.
I would really appreciate some good discussion on this, because there is something about this “substance” that really rubs me wrong. And I’m not sure why other than is seems like “strange fire.”
Here’s a transcript from Todd Bentley:
The anointing is not the Holy Spirit,
The anointing is not the Father,
The anointing is not Jesus, in the sense that Jesus Christ -
the Bible declares in Acts 10, verse 38,
“Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and Power.”
The holy spirit brings the anointing, Father God pours out the anointing, Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus is the anointed one,
but the anointing is a substance, and its very real.
I suppose what he is calling the anointing is what many of us would call the “gifts of the Holy Spirit.”
The A/G addressed this problem 8 years ago, calling it a “deviant teaching.”. Obviously others are free to disagree, but it does raise some interesting points:
The overemphasis on identifying, bestowing, or imparting spiritual gifts by the laying on of hands and naming, supposedly by prophecy, specific gifts. The spiritual gifts are gifts of the Spirit, distributed as He “gives them to each one, just as he determines” (1 Corinthians 12:11). When the Spirit empowers the gift He bestows, there is no need for anyone to assume the Spirit’s role. As the Holy Spirit inspires the operation of the gifts, the identification and confirmation will be obvious to all without assistance from humans who would share some of the glory. The greatest tragedy of such a practice is a misguided human prediction, appearing to be a prophetic utterance, that leads a believer to expect abilities and an enduement he may never have. Paul says that gifts were bestowed through the laying on of hands (1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6), but the biblical record neither names a specific gift Timothy received nor implies that Paul or elders had imparted the gift. The Holy Spirit bestows the gifts, not the minister who prays the prayer for empowerment. Caution in naming specific gifts is advised until the Spirit confirms such a prophecy by the supernatural manifestation of the promised gift.
June 5th, 2008 @ 5:13 pm
Oh, I meant to include this transcript as well
Todd Bentley:
Bob Jones told me one time, he said, “The anointing works in the kidneys – the fat, the kidneys, the adrenaline – it works through the kidneys.” He said, “Kidneys are connected to the anointing. If you wanna see someone persevere (preserve?) an anointing, pray for their kidneys.” People are praying from my kidneys, and I get full (?) – it’s instant. There’s something about eating the fat of the kidneys in the Bible. The anointing is in the kidney – it’s in the fat.
- Todd Bentely, Lakeland Revival (April 11, 2008]
So its a substance that is in the fat of the kidneys.
Hmmmm….
June 5th, 2008 @ 10:21 pm
“And the whole doctrinal areas of impartation and transference is built upon it.”
Bill, just a few scriptural references.
Matthew 14:36
And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
Mark 6:56
And whithersoever he entered, into villages, or cities, or country, they laid the sick in the streets, and besought him that they might touch if it were but the border of his garment: AND AS MANY AS TOUCHED HIM were made whole.
Mark 5
28 For she said, If I may TOUCH BUT HIS CLOTHES, I shall be whole. 29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague. 30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that VIRTUE HAD GONE OUT OF HIM, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
1 Timothy 4:14
Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the LAYING ON OF HANDS of the presbytery.
2 Timothy 1:6
Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, WHICH IS IN THE BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS.
Also, just all the references in the Bible to healing from the laying on of hands.
The point being, that transference and impartation of spiritual things is scriptural. It is the very reason we lay hands on people, so that what we have is transferred or imparted to them.
There is a post by Dr. Brown earlier where he talks about this in regards to revival and one of the ways it spreads.
I don’t see why you have a problem with the word substance. Many ministers in history have spoken of the anointing as ‘substance’ because it can be tangible. It can be felt. Nothing weird about that. Don’t miss a truth by getting hung up on the terminology. The Holy Spirit is a ‘he’, but what He gives could be termed as an ‘it’. IT, the gifts. IT, the anointing. You might say the anointing is a person and therefore not an ‘it’. In one sense I agree. But at the same time, look at these two scriptures which you are familiar with:
John 2
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One…
27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you…
If I receive AN ANOINTING from the Holy one, if I receive that FROM Him, then the thing I receive and Him are not the same thing. If you receive a book from me, the book and me are not the same thing, but what you received from me is FROM me, therefore the book is an ‘it’. IT is the thing you received from me. IT is the anointing you received from Him.
Anyway, just another way to look at it.
June 5th, 2008 @ 10:43 pm
Hey Bill,
I’d like to comment on a couple of things with regard to your recent posts. In saying this I am not necessarily supporting what is happening in Lakeland, just commenting on some things you brought up.
1) With regard to the ‘anointing’ I would say a lot of it depends on how you define “the anointing”. However, I would note that in Acts 19:12 the very handkerchiefs that were taken from Paul’s body were being brought to the sick and they were being healed and demons that got near would be cast out. Hence, there was a tangible something or other that was “on” Paul’s handkerchief, bringing healing to people and causing demons to flee.
2) You stated, “The spiritual gifts are gifts of the Spirit, distributed as He ‘gives them to each one, just as he determines’ (1 Corinthians 12:11).” While I agree with that statement (because it’s biblical) it is probably a good idea to go back and check out the context of that statement (1 Cor 12:1-27), because from the looks of it Paul was talking about “Body-ministry” (i.e., the Body coming together in fellowship to be built up). Otherwise Paul would not have commanded us twice to “desire” and “earnestly desire” spiritual gifts, especially that we may prophesy (1 Cor 12:31; 14:1).
Anyway, just some things to consider, let me know your thoughts.
Grace to you,
Glenn
June 5th, 2008 @ 10:57 pm
Hey Brian,
You stated, “If I receive AN ANOINTING from the Holy one, if I receive that FROM Him, then the thing I receive and Him are not the same thing…”
It’s important to remember that when it comes to receiving somthing from GOD you can certainly receive something from Him that is Him. We receive from Him the Holy Spirit. And, as we all know, “the Lord is the Spirit” (2 Cor 3:17). Hence, He is giving us Himself.
This is not to say that I agree with what Bill said, but just to help clarify the issue that you addressed a bit more.
Grace,
-Glenn
June 5th, 2008 @ 11:06 pm
I’m curious if anyone can find in Scripture an instance of a Christian being delivered from a demon. When I say “Christian” I mean someone who is in the New Covenant like us (i.e., after the death of Jesus and specifically after the infilling of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost; although either one will work).
This is not to say where I stand on the issue (if I actually do stand anywhere on it), but just to say “What can we find in the biblical witness?”
If anyone finds a Scripture (wherever you stand on the issue) I’d be curious to look at it and pray about it.
Thanks!
Glenn
June 6th, 2008 @ 8:10 am
Glenn and Brian,
Thanks for your responses. Of course I was aware of those scriptures. However, in them I detect a bit of circular reasoning. I think I made a mistake by bringing “transference and impartation” into the discussion at this stage. Why? Because if you believe the “anointing” is intangible, that does not preclude it from tranference.
As an example, I ordered many videos from BAG during the revival. Although many have testified otherwise, I never sensed an “anointing” on the actual VHS tape. I never fell to the floor simply by unwrapping the package. A physical examination of the tapes reveals no substance on them which would differentiate them from a tape from Blockbuster.
However, my life was impacted, and I was ministered to greatly by these tapes. Which is to say the presence of God was felt in viewing them.
Glenn, you said:
I would note that in Acts 19:12 the very handkerchiefs that were taken from Paul’s body were being brought to the sick and they were being healed and demons that got near would be cast out. Hence, there was a tangible something or other that was “on” Paul’s handkerchief, bringing healing to people and causing demons to flee.
I think it would be very easy to come up with other explanations which would lead one to other conclusions. For instance, could it be that the act of faith required to pass on the handkerchief. much like the centurions faith, was behind this?
Which brings us to the fact that faith is the substance of things hoped for…
What does that mean?
Webster’s 1828 is interesting:
http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,substance
And how does that fit with Bentely’s declaration that “The anointing is in the kidney – it’s in the fat.”
It seems to me that just as certain groups have taken the allegory known as the Song of Songs and have tried to make it real – to the point of holding wedding ceremonies where individuals get married to Jesus in large mass meetings, so the extreme prophetic has tried to make physically tangible something that may have allegorical value (a.k.a. prophetic actions or symbolism) in the Word.
And this, in my opinion, is what is driving the excess emphasis on transference and impartation.
No I don’t think that the anointing is a substance in the manner in which it is being taught. If that were the case, you could wring out that prayer hankey, and simply send the anointing is a small test tube. The argument seems to be greater than semantics, it is the doctrinal foundation of the “come and get some” outpouring and indeed central to the discussion.
June 6th, 2008 @ 9:42 am
Hebrews 1:11 tells us that faith is the substance of things hoped for. In this context “substance” means “essence”.
Websters 1828 definition #3 seems to fit best:
3. The essential part; the main or material part. In this epitome, we have the substance of the whole book.
(example) This edition is the same in substance with the Latin.
Thayer’s Lexicon tells us the meaning of the word substance in the above mentioned passage is “the substantial quality, nature of any person or thing.”
This seems to be in harmony with Websters 1828 #3.
The English word “Substance” is derived from Latin, which in turn was derived from the Greek “ousia”. The Greek word “ousia” shows up in the Nicene Creed, where it’s usually translated “essence” rather than “substance.” The word itself is a form of the Greek verb for “to be.” In this context, it refers to the uncreated stuff that makes up the Persons of the Trinity. Or as a friend of mine puts it “Confusing the anointing with a substance replaces the Creator (Holy Spirit) with a created thing (the substance). That’s blasphemy, idolatry, etc. of the sort seen in Romans 1.”
The more I look at this, the more I realize that my comments on the nature of the anointing according to Bentley cut to the marrow(1) of his doctrinal foundation. It begs closer study.
(1) Doctrinal foundations have no actual physical “marrow.” It’s an allegory, stupid. See Hebrews 4:12.
June 6th, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
Bill,
Where can I get a copy of Bob Gladstone’s message that you mentioned on Isaiah Chapter 6 ??? Sounds interesting I would like to hear it.
June 6th, 2008 @ 1:33 pm
Daniel C.,
You can go to http://www.fire-church.org and click on “Sermons”. It should be under that category.
Blessings,
Bryan
June 6th, 2008 @ 2:03 pm
Actually, Gladstone just preached on Isaiah 6 at fire church, but the sermon I was talking about was from BAG years ago. I have not had a chance to listen ti the most recent one; just started it last night because Mark Jr. linked it off his blog.
-Bill
June 6th, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
In the last couple of days I have come across 2 articles that I believe to be relevant to the discussion at hand. The first is from a person who has been involved with the Lakeland meetings from the start, the second is from a person who previously worked and ministered with Todd Bentley/Patricia King, etc.
_________________________________________
http://lakelandrevival.blogspot.com/2008/05/revival-report.html
Tuesday, May 27, 2008
Revival Report
This was posted on Theology Today under the Title, Todd Bentley and the Florida Outpouring Part 6. It’s a comment by someone who has spent lots of time at the services. \o/
I have attended this revival for many weeks. In fact, I have been there since the second night of Todd’s meetings (4/2/08), long before this became “revival”. Initially, I was so excited to see God move in such a mighty way. I was encouraging my pastor, several other pastors that I know, many friends and family members to “come and see what God is doing.” There were few times when I was uncomfortable with what was happening in the meetings, but I figured that I was just being critical and reminded myself that God’s ways are not my ways. I continued to support this revival, even after I heard my own pastor voice his concerns. I was quite vocal about these misgivings others had. I continued to defend Todd, God, etc., etc.
However, as time as passed, I have become increasing concerned about several things. First of all, I have worked in the medical field for over 20 years (in radiology). I have noticed that there have only been a very few “documented” miracles in comparison to the numbers that have claimed miracles. I am aware of at least two claims of healing that I believe to have possibly been real. There was the child with the elbow fracture and her x-rays. However, I would like to know the dates between the first set of x-rays and the 2nd, as healing, especially with very young children can be quite quick…especially if it was very mild fracture. Also, I would love to see the type of fracture, position, and the view (AP, lateral, etc.) of the second set of films. (Sometimes a particular view will not show the fracture that is actually there.) There was also a young man who testified one night (before TV/internet) about being healed from Hepatitis C, with the lab work to confirm. Again, with false positive/negatives that can happen with labs. I’d love to see what his actual lab values were and see a retesting to confirm. Although I do believe that this individual could very well have been healed, but because of how I’ve seen other things handled in this revival, I would just like to see more documentation.
Much of the “miracles” that I have seen over the weeks have been based more on what people believe that have happened, more than medically documented miracles. Many times over I have seen people with metal rods in their spine be “healed”. Todd will ask, what couldn’t you do, and usually has them bend over. This act of bending over is declared as a miracle. It is not. Most folks with metal rods in their back or neck CAN bend over, as these rods (Harrington rods) very seldom go the entire length of the spine. In fact, I have metal plates/screws in my neck and can bend my head from side to side and front to back. I remember one night when a woman with bulging discs in her neck came up to declare her healing. Todd felt along her spine and said “I don’t feel any bulging discs in your neck”, and then announced she had been healed. A disc bulge is something that you will NOT detected by running your hand up and down the spine. It is not something that can be physically palpated. Only imaging with MRI or CT would show the presence of disc bulges and if they were compressing nerve roots or affecting the spinal cord/spinal canal. I saw where this declaration of healing caused the room the go wild. My feeling is that if this is truly a bonafied healing…PRAISE GOD! But let’s confirm these miracles. That is what the world really needs to see! But alas, very few healings are actually being confirmed.
Secondly, my concern is the focus that has been placed on Angels, visitations, manifestations, etc. Although Jesus is mentioned throughout the night, though an altar call is given… far more emphasis is being placed on these other things than is actually being given to the Jesus and him crucified (as Paul would say). The cross, the resurrection, holiness, repentance, dying to the flesh, etc., are merely glossed over and not really preached. What is being given more time, more emphasis are these other “experiences”.
The atmosphere here has changed from the very first meetings…at least it seems to me. And as I said earlier, I have been at revival since April 3rd…the 2nd night Todd was here in Lakeland. Something is wrong and I am concerned. Somehow the gospel that saves and keeps is not being preached as it should. Jesus…not even the Holy Spirit… is to be focus. In the Gospel of John, it says the when the comforter (Holy Spirit) would come, it would not speak of himself, but of Jesus. My concern is growing. I think we need to really pray and ask for discernment. I’m all for revival. I am all for miracles. But is there another Jesus, another gospel that is being preached here?
\o/ My answer, as a person living in Lakeland, is yes.\o/
____________________________________________________
(wflower is the person who worked with these ministries)
wflower
May 30, 2008 at
Ward
Thank you for the encouragement. I do know that my experience with literally falling on the bible to KNOW the truth has changed my life though it cost me everything in my world. But I also know it was the Lord Who gave me that desire to believe in Him.
I wish every person involved in this mess could turn and seek the truth of His word -
Perhaps this is indeed the delusion sent by the Lord and it is weeding out the true saints for the coming of the Lord Jesus.
Mary interesting that too is always what I have thought of and it makes me ill.
TimH
May 30, 2008 at
Sounds like we are all in agreement that alot of prayer needs to go up, both for Todd, and the bretheren who are following. Pray for those you are led to pray.
Bill
May 30, 2008 at
>I feel a particular compassion for the desperate, sick people who travel to Florida thinking there is something special there and hoping for healing.
bereanonthewall
Lee
May 30, 2008 at
wflower,
I’m curious, if you don’t mind, why you had to leave your good paying job. If you’d rather not say, I fully understand.
Lee
May 30, 2008 at
Ward & wflower,
We are doing a study on the Cost of Discipleship [a Kay Arthur study] and it has been very humbling and eye opening. I’ve read those scriptures all before; but, I did not really absorb ‘em until this teaching. I know I don’t take enough of a stand. But, by God’s grace I wanna get there.
Mary
wflower
May 30, 2008 at
Hi Lee
Because my job was promoting false prophets Todd being one of them. – it was called a ministry but it was exactly that. I worked with all the false prophets never batting an eye until I could no longer go along with what it was becoming which was about 5 years ago.
I finally started searching myself for truth and found all of it false and wrong. I could no longer cash my paycheck so I quit after a total bible reading shaking of my heart. My job, the church meetings and many friendships were involved in this so heavily it wasnt easy—so I truly care about all the people invloved but my patience is waning at times because they have never cared to see the truth.
I was scared to write for so long since I was the lone ranger thinking perhaps I had misheard but then I found this blog and have been reading but not commenting for a long time.
Lee
May 30, 2008 at
wflower,
Thanks for your testimony. It really does encourage me to ‘do battle’ with the ‘Sword’ which is the Word of God on various blogs. There were many times I thought of quitting altogether; and, I have taken some time off at various intervals. However, if I — actually the Holy Spirit working through me — can get through to just one and get him/her to look for the Truth, then it is worth it.
I continue to pray for those caught up in deception. But, I admit, I have a hard time praying for Bentley as I feel he is a deceiver rather than a deceived deceiver. However, I could certainly be wrong.
wflower
May 30, 2008 at
also Lee
I wrote about some of my story over on bam bam a couple of days ago for the first time.
Ya know when Todd had a heart attack awhile ago I thought perhaps that would be a time of readjustment for him but instead something took place that got him to this present day tattooed violence that was never apparent before although his teaching has always been errant
wflower
May 30, 2008 at
I believe he now is in the deceover camp because i have watched the change and the timeframe is uncanny
Lee
May 30, 2008 at
wflower,
Yes, I do recall your initial testimony. It was after you first answered my question above.
raspberry
May 30, 2008 at
Praise God for your testimony wflower!
wflower
May 30, 2008 at
Guess Im chatty now that the cork is pulled but wanted to say especially to Lee don’t ever stop!
Don’t ever stop ingesting the bible – Don’t ever stop doing what you are to do. You are reaching people – some even like me I hope since there are tons of so called ministries out there promoting.
I had opportunity to further what I do (as ministry) and the place I worked for was willing to launch me and I too would have been “worldwide” so to speak . That was hard to not accept at one point but I know a new day is coming!
Never stop testing, knowing , praying and learning of the Lord and His truth. It is worth far more than gold dust and “anointing” and the glory spoken of in such meetings like we have discussed.
Thank you to all here – You have been a huge blessing to me for quite some time now.
____________________________________________________
Here is her testimony referred to above, it is worth reading and prayerfully considering what she has to say.
http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/bam-bam-bentley/#comment-4455
June 6th, 2008 @ 4:20 pm
Bill, you stated, “I think it would be very easy to come up with other explanations which would lead one to other conclusions. For instance, could it be that the act of faith required to pass on the handkerchief. much like the centurions faith, was behind this?”
Granted, but it is interesting that demons would flee at the presence of this particular handkerchief… ?? So, what about the Scriptures that Brian brought up?
You also stated, “It seems to me that just as certain groups have taken the allegory known as the Song of Songs and have tried to make it real – to the point of holding wedding ceremonies where individuals get married to Jesus in large mass meetings…”
I agree, this is not biblical at all. It is correct AS A BODY to be identified as the Bride of Christ, but it is unbiblical and dangerous to make it individual.
-Glenn
June 6th, 2008 @ 5:05 pm
Glenn,
You miss my point- transferrence can happen whether or not the “‘anointing” is a (tangibele, physical) substance. Again, I want to focus in on the use of subtsnace as defined by Bentley. Let’s leave transferrence and impartation to another day.
Let me respond to your question with a question: “Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed’?
Is the “Holy Spirit” a substance?
-Bill
June 6th, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
“Is the “Holy Spirit” a substance?”
Well, I am a person and I am a substance and have substance. If the Holy Spirit is a person, I guess He must too.
June 6th, 2008 @ 8:48 pm
Have had several hits from this location. We at thegreycoats.wordpress.com are wholeheartedly in favor of discernment in the midst of revivalistic fervor. Great work.
June 7th, 2008 @ 12:55 am
Bill,
Have I received the Holy Spirit since I believed? Yes. And, as Brian noted, yes, the Holy Spirit has substance, or He wouldn’t exist. He is spirit (John 4:24).
Also, regarding Todd’s definitions of “the anointing” etc, I can’t say I totally know everything that he believes regarding that. I would say, though, that about the whole “kidney” thing… I don’t find that in the Bible. So I can’t say I agree with it or that I would practice it.
You stated: “As an example, I ordered many videos from BAG during the revival. Although many have testified otherwise, I never sensed an “anointing” on the actual VHS tape. I never fell to the floor simply by unwrapping the package.”
Who knows why. But, is it possible that an object could have that effect (becuase of the presence of God that went with it)? Possibly. That hankey certainly did – demons fled (regardless of someone’s faith; it doesn’t even mention that). They fled because of the presence of the hankey (or, more specifically, the presence that went with the hankey)… (??)
Also, don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying that I agree with “impartation” as it’s taught in Lakeland and I’m not saying that I agree with Todd’s usage of “the anointing”.
Glenn
June 7th, 2008 @ 9:36 pm
I just wanted to take a moment to thank each and every person who has shared on this thread, for doing so in a Godly and considerate manner.
Over the last month, as I have looked at different internet sites that are addressing the topic at hand, there seem to be far too many people who are saying things in a mean spirited and accusatory way, both for and against whatever may or may not be going on in Lakleand.
So, it only seemed fitting to publicly thank you all for treating one another in a way that I hope has been pleasing in the Lord’s sight.
June 7th, 2008 @ 11:09 pm
Thank you Dr. Brown for your decision to let this come to a close! (At least on this blog).
June 7th, 2008 @ 11:38 pm
You’re welcome, Asha.
Although I still have not been able to get to Lakeland because of my schedule, one thing I do feel the liberty to say is this: The topic of revival has come front and center again, and people are hungering after something fresh from above. So, regardless of the differences reflected here in this blog, hopefully everyone can recognize that hearts are being stirred to go after the Lord. I trust He will meet us!
June 7th, 2008 @ 11:39 pm
Dr. Brown,
I noticed you’ll be in Orlando soon. Will you be visting the meetings in Lakeland?
June 8th, 2008 @ 12:27 am
Ditto to Lisa’s comments. The discussion has been very helpful and a notch above the rest.
Glenn and Brian, thank you for helping me to refine my thoughts on the nature of the anointing. I most likely will be constructing an article for beyondgrace.blogspot.com arguing that the anointing is an immaterial substance. Come on over and bother me sometme.
June 8th, 2008 @ 3:11 pm
Steve,
I was in and out (already on the way out) of Orlando without a moment’s break, so I wasn’t able to go to Lakeland. If I had had a break in my schedule, I gladly would have gone.
June 8th, 2008 @ 7:21 pm
“The topic of revival has come front and center again, and people are hungering after something fresh from above. So, regardless of the differences reflected here in this blog, hopefully everyone can recognize that hearts are being stirred to go after the Lord. I trust He will meet us!”
Amen and amen. Onward and upward! Press on and press in! To know Him and make Him known! Stir us afresh, O Lord! Fan into flame the Gift! On with it!
I wrote this years ago, be exhorted dear brothers and sisters:
“Glory Come Down!”
Father, come do – so we are undone
Send fire and possess us as the Holy One
Your glory made known
To this desire we’re prone
Your glory manifest
Our passion ’till heav’n's rest
Burning love for Your glory
Shall be our heav’nly story
Jealous want for Your honor
We can surely wait no longer
For Shekhinah we blaze
For Shekhinah we broil
Lend us Your gaze
Crush our agendas like foil
O God, come now
Hurl Your Glory down
Rend the heavens with power
In this critical hour
Avinu we need You!
Devoid of revival we’re sunk!
Except Your fire comes through
Our efforts surely are bunk
Revival or death!
The cry of our age
Holiness with all our breath
Forever we’ll rage!
–
Grace and Love to all the saints!
p.s. – “Avinu” means “our Father” in Hebrew.