Keeping Your Religion In The Church Building
August 25, 2008 | 17 Comments
8/22/08: Why Don’t You Keep Your Religion in the Church Building?
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17 Responses to “Keeping Your Religion In The Church Building”
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August 25th, 2008 @ 3:18 pm
Dear Moderator;
Again I noticed there is a long lag between podcasts and the broadcasts. Is this being addressed or will the podcasts always be days behind?
August 25th, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
S. Johnson,
Please send questions and comments such as these to Line of Fire via the Contact Page: http://lineoffireradio.wordpress.com/contact-line-of-fire/
September 15th, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
…I’m still laughing about “Why don’t you keep your hair in the salon?” — you have a much quicker wit than I, Dr. Brown. D’you always manage to hold your tongue when such a perfect riposte presents itself? …Bet you don’t.
October 17th, 2008 @ 8:23 am
The christian way?; preach Gospel and teach and admonish one another in love. living in peace with others and loving our neighbors and our enemies. In regards with how we deal with the sinful society? Speak the counsel of God. John the baptist was killed for telling Herod the moral truth. We stand against ALL sin because ALL sin is Satanic. We speak the word of God in our stand because that is what we stand on, it is our sword! By all means christians should stand against all wickedness in society. That said, should christians attempt to turn a nation into a christian democracy? Thats going beyond scripture. Paul says we should live quietly, yet He also says live as children of Light in this dark world. How do we do both? Our own actions, the word we speak ought to be the word of God. Perhaps I’m wrong, what is your opinion?
October 17th, 2008 @ 8:58 am
“[S]hould christians attempt to turn a nation into a christian democracy?” But I think you may have the wrong conception here. Read through the comments at Can We Really Legislate Morality? and then say what you think.
October 17th, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Ewan,
I read the comments. I agree with Marcus (regarding his views on that post). You can not mix christianity and politics. This is the result of flawed political thinking which looks at christianity as a religion only. Here’s a question. In a christian democracy who is the Head of government? Is it a president? Then wait, what about Jesus isn’t He our King. You see, its ignoring the obvious. We have an actual living King who reigns from the heavens far above all principalities and powers. Would Jesus be king of this democracy? Would you ask him to attend house meetings and put his High-priesthood in the Heavenly Temple on hold for these meetings? Perhaps its a secular christian democracy? Based on christian morals but separating church and state. How is that christian then? If it seeks to be godly but ignores the power thereof.
If we were to have a theoretical nation that was christian, it would be theocratic. It would be based on the organizational structure of the Church as stipulated in the New Testament. Perhaps that makes every church a little foreign community within whatever state it is found in? Actually I would argue yes. Every church congregation is part of The Kingdom of God, all christians make up A Holy Nation, a chosen Race, a royal priesthood.
That means that within every nation in the world in which Christians are found, a sovereign entity called the Kingdom of God exists. This body has One King, One Lord and One God. It has its own organizational structure and has members who are both seen and unseen. This Assembly of The King is part of this Kingdom, though the purpose of its members at the moment is to be witnesses of Christ. At the time our God has set, then shall His Kingdom invade this world to rule it.
October 17th, 2008 @ 5:22 pm
I would say that you are the one who is “look[ing] at Christianity as a religion only.” Christianity is more than a religion in so far as it is a total worldview which impacts every area of life. The fact is you cannot separate religion and politics – this is a philosophical reality. Therefore if the Christian worldview is not informing our politics then we are going to have another worldview determining the laws of the land. Are you happy then to have the secular humanists in charge as they are now, or maybe the Islamists in the future? I agree with Dr. Brown that our only real hope in the West is for a Christian revival, but that we shouldn’t ignore politics as this is a part of what it means to be salt and light.
October 17th, 2008 @ 7:58 pm
Hi Ewan
(The fact is you cannot separate religion and politics – this is a philosophical reality).
Can you show scriptural basis for this in the New Testament.Quite a few scriptures bring a clear distinction between state and religion.Or else what kind of common ground do you mean?
(Therefore if the Christian worldview is not informing our politics then we are going to have another worldview determining the laws of the land).
How do you think that should happen?
Mwiya
Firstly are you by any chance Mwiya Namakondo(i might have spelled that a little wrong?
Secondly by reading some of your posts earlier are you saying that Christians shouldnt be judges or to that matter hold any political jobs.
Can you elobarate.
Thanks
October 17th, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
Ewan,
I don’t think seeing Jesus as the King is religious its factual. He is King and is at the Father’s right hand.
Attempting to create a nation that is christian to me is strange. This is my opinion. I see all christians as an army, a Holy Nation on the earth with a spiritual job to do. But part of this spiritual job is living as light in this dark world which the nation of america has always been. Even the pilgrims stole from the Indians, imagine christians stealing!
I agree we are salt, but we remain salty by abiding in Christ and doing His will. Not only that but the darkness of the world is spiritual which is why people do evil acts in the flesh. They are spiritually dead. If we are to be light we must shine The Light of Christ, and through our words and deeds many will come into The King’s kingdom. Thats what we want. Paul never said Hey take over governments, start new countries etc. Peter made it clear that we are aliens.
We must not go beyond scripture. If christians were to settle in some area that say theoretically was unsettled. The only way to set up a truly christian settlement would be to follow the New Testament organizational structure. Elders, deacons, pastors, teachers etc. That is why the church is a nation within a nation. Because in the church we should judge amongst each other just like Paul said. The political idea is of no real value, if it was it would have been followed by the apostle’s. They wanted to spread the Faith not change the political system. When we got there we are out of God’s will. He has One Kingdom, One body. There is a big separation, the state is of the world and the church is of God. We take people out of the world and bring them into the Lord’s assembly. One is carnal the other spiritual, God shall pour out his wrath on the world, whereas His assembly will rule with Christ.
We know the prophecies. There’s no need for fear of islamists etc. We know what is to come, our work is to keep our hands on the plow. Some christian’s views on issues like the Iraqi war, afghani war and numerous other wars through history show how conformed to the world christians get. Thats when I similarities between some christians and islamists. Both sometimes are hungry for blood. If any thing, how do you think muslims feel? America (and by virtue of agreement) some christian leaders have caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands and the displacement of thousands more. Its almost like we ignore that. 3000 American’s died in 9/11 but how many more Iraqi’s have died through an unprovoked war?
So who should we be scared of politicized christians who can justify there actions because they trust in their own muscle and not the power of the Almighty or muslims who don’t know better? Those people need to hear the gospel! Thats what they need and we have not done a great job of going into hostile territory! We’ve become to comfortable and think there is such a thing as a christian country!
I agree with you there is a different world view that the christian has, it says “Heaven is my home, I’m just passing through.”
October 17th, 2008 @ 8:36 pm
John,
Nice to meet you
I’m not Mwiya Namakando (I think that is the proper spelling). Though from the spelling of his name, we probably come from the same tribe and country regarding the flesh. My last name is pretty long so I won’t attempt to spell it out, I hope you don’t take offense
Yes, I’m not saying that christians should not be judges or politicians. I’m trying to show the ultimate impossibility of christians holding such jobs in secular democracies. A christian is a son of God. Its who they are and they can not sever who they are so that when they take on the robes of the judge suddenly they forget the clear NT teachings of do to others as you would have them done to you, or how for example Jesus stopped the adulterous woman from getting stoned and told her to sin no more. Or for example how can a christian send a man to death considering the grace he himself has been shown by God? Shouldn’t a heathen be the one to judge another heathen? Shouldn’t he would otherwise be a judge be preaching the Gospel to a murderer who is on trial so that perhaps he is saved? If the christian were a judge would he be able to preach the gospel to the one he just condemned to die? Yes He deserves death but didn’t we not all deserve hell? Isn’t that why Grace is so amazing!? For whilst we were sinners Christ died for us.
In regards to politicians. Well we have to ask ourselves is it possible for a christian to vote pro-christian on every piece of legislation? Will he legislate all christian morality? The issue raises too many questions and no real answers. I think its beyond scripture.
October 17th, 2008 @ 9:00 pm
Hey Mwiya
Nice to meet you too. I knew of one during my schooling days, thats why i asked.
You do make points note worthy of thought.
Here are a few questions, just to know where you stand on this. Well just dwell on judges for now.
So how do you think the saints are going to judge the world in the end from I Corinthians 6:2?That aspect of judgment includes not just mercy but justice also from my understanding doesn’t it?
Also what about us judging angels? How will that look like?
October 17th, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
Hey John,
Really good question. I’ve thought about that one before, its one of the things that boggles me. Without going beyond scripture I would say that because we are going to do the judging after we are glorified that will mean we will be completely lead by the Holy Spirit and we will also be with the Lord so I think it will be The will of God which shall be done. How this will happen, not to sure. Rev 20 does talk a bit about this though.
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years.
You make a good point regarding how the judgement at the end will be in regards to justice. True, I can’t say how the judging will be done and on what basis. I can say that as God is Holy any judging we do will have to be based on His Holiness.
I think Paul in mentioning that heavy truth is revealing to them how utterly childish they were in that they can not even judge trivial issues amongst themselves rather they go outside the church. To me it shows that Paul clearly sees a distinction between the church and the world governments, and thats part of the issue. It shows how shameful what they are doing is, they who are meant to be light in the world, completely under the headship of christ and meant to be living and walking in the Spirit go to the heathen to sort out their disputes. Its contrary to the new nature and the reality of their purpose here as Lights in the world.
It would seem to me that within the church we ought to sort out our own issues much like how Moses set up other judges to help him sort out problems within the congregation of Israel, so to The Lord Jesus set the order within the church by sending out the apostle’s who also revealed that we are to have elders etc, and I suppose those who are given the gift of discernment and wisdom should judge on any issues. Christ himself set a precedent for this when talking about how to handle these same matters as recorded in Matthew 18. Not to sure if this is practice for what is to come, not sure if Paul is alluding to that in 1 corinthian 6:1-8.
What do you think?
Mwiya
October 17th, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
John asked:
But you misunderstood me slightly. I didn’t say “Christianity and politics”, I said “religion and politics” meaning that all politics (where it has to do with government) has a religious element involved.
Just as there is no neutrality in the Kingdom of God – we are either for God or against Him – neither can there be any neutrality in politics and government. That politics and religion are inseparable is clear to anyone who understands that: politics is about government; government is about legislation; legislation is about law; law is about morality; and morality clearly relates directly to somebody’s worldview or religion.
October 17th, 2008 @ 11:52 pm
Ewan,
What do you think about Isaiah 9 where we are told that the government shall be on Messiah’s shoulders?
You also raise an interesting point about neutrality. Would you say the U.S. government is for God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) or against God. And would you say there is any government in the world that is for God? If so which one’s?
Also I’d like to hear your views on how you see the Kingdom of God. As a Sovereign Kingdom with a Sovereign God as King. How do you think it relates to the rest of the world system, considering it is the only Kingdom that fights against both spiritual wickedness and will invade and rule actual physical nations which are under the prince of the power of the air.
October 18th, 2008 @ 12:01 am
Sorry Ewan
could you also clarify for me, you talked about neutrality and I asked if you think the U.S. government is for God or against Him. Considering what Jesus said about those who are against Him. If it is against Him would that make it an enemy of God and His Kingdom? And if it is for Him wouldn’t it have to submit to his rule and follow His commandments etc, basically what does being for Him consist of? Also are we as christians permitted to pass ‘laws’ based on christian morality or are we to keep to the confides of the NT description of a community of believers? if we can pass ‘laws’ Has God permitted this? Your comments would be of great help
Thanks
October 18th, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
Ewan
I think moral issues have more to do with a person’s conscience than religion itself.Religion by itself helps to some extent shape a person’s conscience just like any other factor (circumstances-trials,abuses….)
(With in Christianity it should be controlled by the Spirit and has a different dimension to it).
If you take Romans 1 and 2 we see that those who didnt have the law would be judged by their conscience.God himself putting his laws in everybody wether he is a believer or not.
So in that context a person’s world view is directly related to the state of his consience and the circumstances surrounding him and the choices he makes , and not just religion.
October 21st, 2008 @ 8:10 pm
Mwiya
.
I thought you and people4people were two different individuals and the question( What do you think?Mwiya) was directed to you
Anyway the reason why i raised up that question was to say that if we are going to judge people afterward justly, then there is nothing wrong in doing it now led by the Spirit.
Im not sure how the justice system works today in the secular world so im unable to comment.
However if a judge dosent need to go by the book and can show mercy at his will then i see nothing wrong there.
Also we need to know that the law of reaping and sowing still works today.For the repentant sinner he may be spared of some of the consequences,however for the unrepentant without Christ (justice) or the law of sowing and reaping is already in effect.By that im implying that he has to pay for his sins.So if the person gets prison sentence or even death it could be deemed righteous in that context.Its all a matter of knowing when to show mercy and justice.Inourselves we are inadequate to judge correctly.However our same Loving Father is the All consuming Fire and if we can see both together then we can also learn to show mercy and justice at the same time.
Blessings