Why Should Christians Vote for Obama?
October 20, 2008 | 88 Comments
10/20/08: Why Should Christians Vote for Obama?
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October 20th, 2008 @ 11:25 pm
Here is an article on a similar subjectShould Christians Support Obama?
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:15 pm
Proverbs 6:16-19
16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
**
Shedding innocent lives includes not only the unborn but also the living who have done no wrong to them who slay them. The war in Iraq is such an example. The war in Afghanistan is another example were thousands of ordinary people have had to suffer because of one man (Osama) yes He did wrong but the ordinary Afghani did not attack the U.S. (Its also interesting to note that the Taliban was installed with the help of the U.S.)
There is a pride issue to deal with, gluttony etc. How does one weigh the moral issues when deciding whether to vote for Obama or McCain? Do we use our own understanding or do we lean on the Lord. Do we ask Him to lead us? Also, aren’t christians supposed to be of one mind? So shouldn’t we all know what God wants by asking Him?
Should christians support abortion and the destruction of marriage? Some one could argue that it would be the destruction of marriage outside of christianity as true christians will not be affected. Another could argue that well since those who are not christians lack understanding the moral ground should be based on Scripture. Yet another will say, America is not the kingdom of God. The fact that there even has to be a discussion on something so obvious simply shows how fargone the society is, how morally depraved it is. That person would argue that America has been on a slippery slope since its inception. Bloodshed and war have been its lot. The theft of native american land, the trade of human beings in never before seen numbers and cruelty. The love of money, the greed, the hate etc. To even think it has ever been a christian country is to be a dreamer. The reality is far from it. America by allowing abortion and homosexual marriage would be doing what has been natural for it. But another person would say does that mean christians should sit back and watch? Should we not vote for the person who would bring most moral change? Another will say, complete moral change is not voting over 2 issues. What about fornication on television, violence and greed?
Can Obama be the christian choice? Well another will argue, should christians even be choosing? Why not simply preach the truth and give the counsel of God on the issue much the way Jonah did to Nineveh (as a foreeigner yet giving God’s word). Maybe retreat on the christian politics and forge ahead on the evangelism? The divisive nature of this issue reveals much. There is no easy answer to this question. Perhaps it would be easier if people could have referendums on issues like abortion and marriage. As an observer (not being american), I can honestly say if I were american I would not vote. Both candidates lack much. Both parties simply court two demographics to their advantage and not the public’s.
October 21st, 2008 @ 1:36 pm
People4People,
Thanks for raising these questions. What country are you from?
October 21st, 2008 @ 6:05 pm
Dr Brown
People4people (that’s my wordpress I.d.). I’m Zambian, but studying in the UK.
October 21st, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
Wouldn’t it just be easier for the sake of conflict, to just vote on issues and not persons.
October 21st, 2008 @ 7:49 pm
Got it. Thanks!
October 21st, 2008 @ 8:00 pm
Dr brown,
I’d have said heavenly jerusalemian but that doesn’t flow off the Tongue too well..LOL
October 22nd, 2008 @ 12:20 am
There’s another thing the Lord hates – unequal weights and measures. mwiya take note. The moral equivalence you and others keep making between abortion victims and the unintended causalities of war, is immoral in itself. You need to learn to follow Jesus’ advice to “make a righteous judgment” (John 7:24). It’s no wonder the church is in such a sad state when Christians are so confused over basic ethical issues.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 8:09 am
ewan,
What merit does either political candidate have if neither truly represents christ in their politics. Look at how McCain courts pastors then upon hearing how they preached against something he is for, he dumps them. Why vote for him? Why not boycot the vote? I’m sure that would send a loud message to both parties that Christians are about more than 2 moral issues, that Christians are about all moral issues from t.v. Fornication to needless bloodshed.
I have said that the murder of infants in the womb is wrong. It’s murder but tell me is it any less righteous than the murder of Iraqi children caught in the bombing raids early in the war? Wat about the children who have needlesly been orphaned? God hates the shedding of innocent blood period. And for an unprovoked war to be supported by Christians is really funnyl. Iraq did not bomb the U.S. Iraq did not have any WMD’s. So how can this simply he a war? That’s how the invador talks. What about the invaded? You haven’t lost every thing like many Iraqis have so how can u judge which is weightier. From my reading of scripture I say both are weighty and all bloodshed should be avoided by disciples of Christ who are called peace makers, not hecause we enforece false peace with guns but because we preach the Gospel of peace. I’m no judge, I can simply say what is right and wrong. God is the judge and every soldier who has killed a man will be required to give account, there is no partiality with God. No gentile country today can compare itself with ancient Israel which was ordered by God to take it’s
inheritance and defended it. God fought with them when he ordered them to
fight, when he did and they went any ways the lost. Why, it’s because the battle belongs to God. Which prophet told America that God is fine with the
war? If the heathen go to war it’s their problem. But should Christians use the name of our God to allow evil? No.
The weightiest issue today is probably true representation of the Gospel in how it’s preached and lived out by all christians. Every other probelm is a symptom of this. I’d like to see people who’d rather give the other cheek than shed another man’s blood. Run away than fight another for the sake of pride, simply live out the things Jesus wants us to do and preach “Christ and him crucified.”
October 22nd, 2008 @ 8:18 am
Ewan,
Sorry, I have one more question.
How is killing people in a war unintentional? The soldiers of that country are intentional kills I’m sure and they were defending their land from foreign occupation. Or are you talking about the numerous Iraqi citizens killed in the bombing raids or perhaps families that attempted to defend themselves and wouldn’t have had to do so if the invading army didn’t do so in the beginning. I’m also confused if a foreign country invaded the U.S. as it did to Iraq, would you still be talking the way you are now? Would u as a Christian offer food and water to the invaders or try your best to kill them (similar to what the heathen Iraqis did)?
October 22nd, 2008 @ 2:11 pm
dear mwiya, i think the major flaw in your philosophy is your perspective. you make the arguement that we should seek to obtain perfection in an imperfect world, and shift the individual moral burden of the populace to its government. government leaders bear responibility for the actions of their countries and have a responibility to protect their citizenry, you yourself make this point. the united states under the leadership of president bush was presented with a dilema after the attacks of sep 11, do we sit back and allow declared enemies to plot their attacks? should Israel lay down its wepons and be exterminated? do we sit idle while Iran develops nuclear weapons? please tell me if you can at what point the country of Iran should be engaged millitarily. is it your opinion that Iraq under Saddam Hussein violated the cease fire agreement that ended the gulf war/Kuwait conflict. and should the United States have come to the defense of Kuwait to begin with? should any country come to the defense of another? remeber as a conflict grows in scope the casualties of war escalate, WW2 being a prime example. as Christians do we point fingers, or do we acknowledge evil? would you allow me to cut your throat or would you fight back? if i lived next door to you and were constantly threatening your family, and occaisionally beat one of your kids would you be passive?
October 22nd, 2008 @ 2:43 pm
Dear Mwiya, the responsibility we have in this country is to vote for leaders that best fit our individual criteria. in other words do you agree with John McCains policies or Barak Obamas? you will never find anyone who agrees with you on all issues, have you ever met another Christian who agreed completely with all aspects of your interpretation of scripture? an informed mind is whats required to make a responsible decision and in Obamas case there just isn’t enough information to ever warrant voting for him. why don’t we know more about his personal affiliations? actually what i do know about the man makes me scream that i would never vote for him. thats democracy and in our country we vote on our leader every four years, its a self correcting government and its principals were established by Christians at its inception. to make the arguement that we’re dreaming if we think this nation was founded by Christians is truly ignorant. my evidence? if i declared you were not a Christian based upon your flaws would this be an accurate statement. it is precisely because we’re flawed that we need Christ. be a light to the world, and let truth shine.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 2:50 pm
Dear Mwiya, the view that Christians should not participate in the democratic process to send a msg is irresponsible. its like saying that because the dam is leaking we should do nothing and when it breaks we can say “I told you so”
October 22nd, 2008 @ 3:54 pm
evidence for a government established by Christian principal. 1. the understanding that humans are flawed and that government leadership needs a mechanism to ensure responsible appointment, and representation of its people. (Democracy) 2. that the institution and formation of laws is open and transparent and that the domain of any one government entity does not operate without review. 3. that a judicial branch coequal but independent would act to ensure fairness for its people under the law. we have a triune government consisting of 3 coequal branches. Executive, Legislative, and Judicial. We have a court system that reflects our Creator. 1. the purpose of the proceeding is to determine truth. 2. a jury composed of 12 men (Israel consisted of 12 tribes by Christian understanding, and Christ had 12 apostles) who are the discerners of truth. 3. the defendant would stand before a Judge and be examined by an outside accuser, the prosecutor, who seeks to establish the guilt of the defendant. (Satan is our accuser) and finally that the defendant would be considered innocent placing the burden of proof on the prosector. That a just Judge, (who represents God) would be the determiner of sentencing, and could overule the jury and even show mercy, by releasing the defendant.(grace) but dosen’t because his job is to ensure justice. (God the Father punished God the Son in a substitionary punishment becuse a God of love is required to be a God of justice) and before anyone takes the witness stand they swear to tell the truth, so help them God,on a Holy Bible. is it reasonable for a loving God to create hell? we have a place for criminals that can’t be in society, prison.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 5:12 pm
Greg Koukl answers the question about whether to vote for a candidate who is not an ideal Christian choice but who is nevertheless the least worst option: When Compromising Is not a Compromise
The intentional murder of abortion victims most certainly is “less righteous than the murder of Iraqi children caught in the bombing raids early in the war?” Unlike the Islamists who deliberately target civilians, the US and its allies do not target civilians, so if any are killed it is indeed unintentional. I might also add that leftist opponents of the Iraq war like to exaggerate the civilian causalities so I wouldn’t take their figures on face value.
October 22nd, 2008 @ 7:55 pm
Christian Obama supporters, the word for today is justification, oxymoron, was close second
October 22nd, 2008 @ 11:48 pm
Rick,
Thanks for weighing in on the blog.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 12:30 am
I’ve had a chance to listen to this show now. The podcasts are a blessing to us international listeners. What amazed me was how incredibly lame were the excuses the pro-Obama callers had to justify their intention to vote for him in the Christian context. It just reinforced to me the correctness of my opinion that an informed Christian cannot justify voting for Obama given his explicit support for abortion and same-sex marriage. One caller actually nominated “the economy” as the issue that God was most concerned about! That was a real jaw-dropper!
The only argument raised by a caller in favour of Obama, that even warrants a reply, is the one suggesting a moral equivalence between victims of abortion and victims of the Iraq war. Even if you don’t think the Iraq war qualifies as a just war (and unlike the subject of abortion that is an issue upon which there is room for Christians to disagree) there still isn’t moral equivalence for the following reasons:
1) The victims of abortion are deliberately targeted whereas the civilian casualties of the Iraq war were not deliberately targeted, they were unintentional casualties;
2) In terms of innocence, the victims of abortion are the most innocent category of any victims of injustice;
3) In terms of numbers killed, the numbers of victims of abortion killed worldwide each year number about 50 million. What war ever had annual casualty numbers anywhere near this? The one million plus abortions in the USA each year alone vastly out number total casualties from the Iraq war.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 1:26 am
dear mwiya, please check my comments concerning national defense and warfare on Dr. Browns “does America need to support Israel” blog, i would be extremely interested in your view, dialog is good. i wish i could cut and paste it here.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 1:28 am
has not God preserved Israel to date? ever heard of the “six day war”? Israel is a small nation surrounded by enemies avowed to its destruction, yet it continues. Do you expect the Jewish people to be perfect? want to know God’s will? do you pray for God to reveal His will to you? why? He already has, He wrote a book and told us its complete. read His word and walk with Him, and at that point everything you do will be “Gods will”. Gods will and human will are intertwined, “what men intended for evil, God intended for good”. read your entire bible, not just the New Testament, understand that Israel exists because it is Gods will. as Christians we are children of adoption, would you turn you back on your brother if he was faced by assailants? quit trying to acheive perfection by your own merit. thats legalism. God gave you the ability to discern right from wrong, listen to your conscience, let it be guided by his word.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 1:29 am
how bout that? i can cut and paste it! hooray for technology!
October 23rd, 2008 @ 1:38 am
Hi Dr.Brown, thanks for the forum. in case you haven’t guessed i’m a bronze age Christian that just obtained his first computer! don’t laugh, iv’e only had a cell phone for two years now! what an interesting toy this is.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 2:46 am
Here’s an article relevant to those callers who thought the constant reference to Obama and abortion sounds like a broken record. The following is an excerpt from Tired of Life?
October 23rd, 2008 @ 8:39 am
rick,
I don’t expect that Christians will be perfect, however I do believe it is Jesus who said “be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.” in regards to national protection as Christians we can simply pray for protection. Remember we are not of this world but are in it. Remember the mighty army that was prepared to defend Elisha and his servant. Do we trust in our strength so much? Are we of so little faith that we find it a far fetched idea to leave our defense to our Shepherd. If we worry about Iran, let us take it to Holy One in prayer, is he not the one who sent his Angel to destroy the armies of Assyria? Let God be the one to decide which nation rises and falls and how and let us be the people if peace so that no charge can be brought against us except that we are servants of The Most High.
I can’t expect that others see things the way I do. However Im convinced that God expects us to be of one mind, His Truth should be our Truth. And as The Spirit of Truth lives in us and he being a God of peace is not the author of confusion. Our various viewpoints perhaps show that we’re relying on our own understanding, if that’s the case what is the counsel of God on these things that we are discussing?
October 23rd, 2008 @ 8:51 am
rick,
My conscience is clear and I know I’m not a legalist. What I do know is the heart of man is desparately wicked, who can know it. I trust in God’s understanding and will but I know that on my own I can not understand his ways, as far as the heavens are from the earth so to are his ways above ours. it is The Holy Spirit who guides and we who ought to follow. Just because God can turn the evil man does into good does into good does not mean we should purpose to do evil. We can not be perfect as long as we are in the flesh, but as long as we walk in The Spirit and keep our hands on the plow we will please God. We can indeed know the will of God, but it is revealed by both his word and Spirit not our own understanding.
Perhaps the wisest thing any Christian can do in regards to voting is pray that God reveal to him or her what to do.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 9:00 am
Rick,
If my brother was attacked by assailants the righteus thing to do would be to give my life protecting him but not to kill his assailants because they are my neighbors too. Better I die than my brother or his assailants, perhaps my love for both my brother and his assailants would show them an example of Christian love.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 1:26 pm
dear mwiya, what are the duties of a shepard? does he protect the sheep from wolves? are not the leaders of the nations shepards? are they not obligated to protect the sheep? isn’t every government leader within the governmental structure likewise shepards of his region of responsibilty? is the head of a family considered it’s shepard? what about your children? would you not defend them? how interesting that God chose a humble boy, David, to be His greatest King. did Davids soldiers shed blood? why was it that only two, Joshua and Caleb, inherited the land? Gods will is not ambiguous, its clearly been revealed in his book. the Spirit is called the Spirit of understanding, and when we meditate on his word, (read), His will becomes clear. our ability to reason, our inteligence is what allows us to understand, what we do with our intelligence is up to us. thats free will. an armed assailant isn’t innocent, he’s made a decision to take up arms and do the opposite of Gods will. in your opinion was ww2 Gods will? i understand this is an extremely volitile question, and i’m not trying to thoughtlessly provoke you, i’m trying to stimulate an honest discussion.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 2:32 pm
consider this, a Palestinian muslim suicide bomber will give his life to kill dozens of real innocents, after praying for God to reveal his word. how do we know, whether or not, God revealed to him that he should do this? because it goes against what we know to be right. we’re born knowing right from wrong, He’s, (God), written his laws on our hearts so that men are without excuse. it takes heavy brainwashing to produce a suicide bomber, and their indoctrination starts at birth, still the suicide bomber is terrified because he knows that his actions go against Gods will. it takes a truly hardened heart to be fearless in a suicide mission. the conscience must be thoroughly seared to fly planes into buildings while rejoicing. we have a reasoned faith, and the message of love is at its core, true enough, but we must persevere in order to bring this message, i don’t believe you would stand idle and watch your children being murdered, and if you were murdered while preaching Gods word i would be devastated, yes we preach Christ and Him crucified, but we are also allowed to defend ourselves, against Personal Injuries,
21:1227 “Whoever strikes someone28 so that he dies29 must surely be put to death.30 21:13 But if he does not do it with premeditation,31 but it happens by accident,32 then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. 21:14 But if a man willfully attacks his neighbor to kill him cunningly,33 you will take him even from my altar that he may die.
21:15 “Whoever strikes34 his father or his mother must surely be put to death.
21:16 “Whoever kidnaps someone35 and sells him,36 or is caught still holding him,37 must surely be put to death.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 2:36 pm
and if, heaven forbid, you are ever attacked and do fight back, and are victorious, the victory and the glory are God’s.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 3:00 pm
dear mwiya, and yes i do trust in my strength, because my strength is of the Lord. and if i must boast let me boast of God who thru my weakness is made strong. He raises up nations, how? by raising up leaders. what leader would ever turn away from his people? when an aggressor picks up arms to attack he is no longer an “innocent”, and those agressors who hide among civilians are the pinnacle of cowardice. the U.S. is victorious in Iraq because it is Gods will. I’m curious, do you really feel that the Godly thing to do about Iran is to simply pray? have you ever been stranded on the side of the road, in dire straits, praying that God would assist you? did he send an Angel or another man when He answered your prayer? could it be that Israel is praying now for assistance, and that God answers that prayer by blessing the united states, a largely Christian nation, and that we are her, Israel’s, protector? what nation has done as much for the world as the united states? as a Christian nation if we must boast let us boast of our weakness and need for God.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 4:01 pm
Rick,
God is Israel’s protector and it should be God who protects her. In Israel’s past God always rebuked her for making treaties with other nations rather than trusting in Him. Is not the U.S. such a nation. God’s call for us is not to police the world with the power of a gun. Prayer is more powerful than any gun. I’ll give you a personal testimony of the power of prayer.
I’m an international student so when summer break hit I either have to take my stuff home with me or have it stored some where. Last summer I opted to do both, I took some stuff and had some other stuff stored with friends who live in London all year and some other stuff I left at a warehouse. When the summer was over I picked my stuff up from the warehouse and left it at another friends dorm so I could move it to my own dorm which is in another part of London, little by little. When I decided to pick it up one day I found that whilst I was on my way to the train it started to rain. Now my stuff was in a shopping bag made of hard paper so I was worried it would tare, so in a whisper I told the rain to stop raining and prayed that God would make it stop raining and guess what it stopped raining. It went from very heavy to a light drissle enough for me to get into the train dry. Once in the train I asked God if he would make it stop raining completely so that once i got to my stop and got out the train, I would be in dry weather and He answered that prayer also. If God can answer these little prayers of mine, I’m sure He would answer a whole nation’s cry to avoid a war. God does not want any one to needlesly die, He would rather the heathen Iranian’s hear the Gospel. So rather than as christians invade another country with military strength better to send missionaries and evangalists to bring many into the kingdom.
Israel isn’t going to get destroyed by any nation, the end will come when only when God allows and even then He will save Israel. And He will sancitify Himself in that day and all will know That YHWH is God.
Did Paul give us any commands relating to war? Are not the laws on warfare in the Torah for ethnic Israelites under Sinai? Yes you should Glory in the God who gave you your strength but does that mean harming others with it? Are the leaders of the nation our shepherds? Was Nero the shepherd of the christians he murdered? Of course not, they are there to keep order yes, but our shepherds are the elders, pastors and bishops God establishes in our congregations. And our True shepherd is Christ himself not the secular leaders of our nations. The rulers of the nations carry the sword to stop complete chaos and God allows it, but even they are God’s enemies (psalm 2). They rage against Him. Any one can try to claim they are doing God’s will through their own interpretation of scripture, that is why we don’t lean on our own understanding.
We need the Holy Spirit to teach us His word. Just reading it alone will not giveyou God’s mind completely. You need God himself to tell you what He is talking about in His own word. That is one of the ministries of the Holy Spirit, he is the Spirit of Truth who leads into all truth.
Paul makes it clear that our weapons of war are not carnal but mighty in God, we make spiritual war against the devil and his demons not against men.
If men came into my house to kill my children, I would ask Him to kill me instead.
I’d ask God to send and angel and rescue my family from that ordeal as He did for Peter.
David’s soldiers did indeed shed blood. As did Joshua’s armies. But God allowed it and commanded them to take the land of canaan. We however have not been commanded to occupy any lands. We have been commanded to make disciple’s of all nations not to make democracies of all nations. That is a Western Agenda, not one of God.
There is only one who with justice judges and makes war according to Rev 19. Jesus alone, let us leave the protection of Israel to Him. What about the people who condemned Jesus and put Him on the cross, would they be able to say “we were just doing God’s will?” Nope, they will be held responsible for their actions. Just like every other person. If you want to know God’s will you have to ask Him. Simply searching scripture will not suffice. That is why kings in Israel sought the advice of prophets. That is why we seek God’s voice from The Holy Spirit. Because yes His word reveals His will but we are sinners and can easily interpret what we want into scripture to justify our own ambitions. That is why Paul told the thessalonian church not to despise prophecies. That is why again it is written “as many as are led by the Spirit of God they are sons of God.”
As for WW2, was it God’s will? God hasn’t told me, so I don’t know. I’d have to ask you though, how can a country that has so much blood on its hands be christian? Over 40 million abortions, guilty of the theft of so much Indian land, responsible in part for some of the worst slave trade the world has seen, the only country to have used a WMD, from the taskegee experiments to the export of so much sin. To me itse clear that America is just like any other heathen nation that has ever existed. Its wicked. Yes there are many christians in it, but perhaps many have conformed into the world’s violent ideas? When christianity becomes simply a world view or religion and not complete reality the problems discussed arise, can we fight in wars, what justifies that etc. Its so clear to me that Paul and the apostle’s saw the Kingdom of God not just as a religious idea but as reality. There is an actual Kingdom of God and Jesus is King. The Land of Israel belongs to Jesus its rightful owner and He will come back to it at the time set, and the armies of Heaven will come with Him. Let the heathens go to war, they have done so for millenia, our job is to pray for their salvation not to war with them and shed blood. Our job is different to David or Joshua and Caleb’s. We are not here to protect land but to preach the Gospel and live it out.
Israel has one protector God. Not the U.S. If the U.S. is doing any thing, its simply allowing Israel to rely on military stremgth for protection and not God. They have been preserved until now because they must, it still doesn’t change the fact that her people are rebellious and stiff necked. Of uncircumcised ears and hearts as Stephen rightly put it. Let Israel trust in God for her protection, not America. She is repeating the very mistakes she made before Babylon invaded her and crushed her. Making alliances with foreign nations rather than seek God. But the day is coming when she will seek Him, and the one whom they pierced will come to Her salvation. And in that day Jerusalem will say “blessed is He who comes in the name of The LORD.”
People like Obama and McCain do what politicians do, tickle people’s ears just like false prophets. They say what the people want to hear. The world will get worse and worse and worse. We can’t change it by political process, what we can do is save people from the wrath to come and do our best to save the lives of the unborn. Best way to do this is preaching against it and arguing with politicians as to why the unborn should be saved. Making it a way for one party to proft, profits that party. But then what about the nonsense kids are taught in schools etc. They are fighting on all fronts and we choose two fronts to fight on. If christians compose a large part of the electorate they should make their vote as morally expensive as possible so that all the problems they have with society are heard. From indecent ads in public places to abortion and homosexual issues. Then you’ll give both parties a run for their money.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 4:51 pm
dear mwiya, is it possible to be a Christian soldier? Specifically, does the Christian who serves his millitary leaders and engages in bloodshed have salvation? I’m only trying to understand, do you think it possible to be both Christian and soldier?
October 23rd, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
Rick,
I think yes its possible to be a christian and be in the military specifically one who sheds the blood of others. I think those who do kill because they feel they are serving their nations do so out of ignorance. I have a friend who is in the military and I hear some of the stuff he says and it seems to me like he’s simply been brainwashed to think that way. He’s christian but because of how christianity and patriotism are mixed in a dangerous way He can’t see his own ignorance, that said its understandable why He thinks the way He does because christian leaders in the church commend that sort of thinking and say its fine. That still doesn’t make it right, but we all sin in various ways. Its by Grace that we stand, its by Grace that we walk.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
Rick
I think the sin in the above comment I have posted is killing others not serving in the military. I commend chaplains who serve in the military, however I think if I were a chaplain I’ld end up courtmartialled for preaching against killing the enemy. lol..
October 23rd, 2008 @ 7:08 pm
Mwiya said: “…..it seems to me like he’s simply been brainwashed to think that way.” Could it be that to a certain degree we’ve all been brainwashed with regard to some of our views? If so, how do we know what is brainwashing and what is truth? Is it possible that your own views in regard to Christian interaction with government and the military are the result of brainwashing?
October 23rd, 2008 @ 8:15 pm
Ewan,
I have been brainwashed I pray that God brainwashes me with His Truth often. The problem is not brainwashing, the problem is what is being communicated in this brainwashing. Are lies being taught or is The Truth being taught. Discipleship is after all voluntary brainwashing is it not?
No one taught me these views I came to this understanding from Reading scripture . I’ve read on some menonite beliefs and anabaptist and waldesian beliefs but mans testimony holds no weight for me, unless it agrees with scripture. Have I been brainwashed yes, by whom? I say God it is for you to agree or disagree. I’m just a child in the faith, I’m still on milk but I do know that the only way I will ever grow in understanding and maturity is if I see things as God wants me to see them. Not as man sees but as one completely led by The Spirit of God sees. As watchman née says the outer man must be completely broken and the innerman strengthened so that we walk not in our strength but in The Lord’s strength and the power of his might and I think scripture testifies to this. Do I store up treasure in heaven by killing people as a soldier, does wearing a uniform give me immunity in God’s eyes? Isn’t an enemny combatant just as much a son of Adam as me? Is he not flesh and blood, how as a Christian can I evangelize to the enemy if I’m ordered to kill him? Being a new creature in Christ and knowing that God’s would rather have this man who Im aiming at saved how can I a bondservant of Christ take his life? Should I respect men more than God? God forbid! It’s better I risk my life to go to this foreign country to preach the gospel rather than kill because some man says it’s ok. Before anything else Im a son and servant of God in Christ and my citizenship is in Heavenly Jerusalem, I listen to what my master says. Any thing men say is secondary and can and will be ignored if it opposes the explcit commands of my (and our) Lord.
October 23rd, 2008 @ 8:42 pm
ewan,
Look at it this way. If you were a doctor in a country in which abortion is legal and you were ordered by the president to abort a pregnancy as a christian would you do it? As a Christian if you found yourself in world war two fighting against say the Nazi’s, say you found yourself facing a Nazi you knew was a Christian because you once went to church with him. In a kill or be killed situation, would you reach out to your brother or kill him? Do you love your brother as Christ loved you. What about the heathen enemy, do you love your enemy by killing him? Who are you O’man to wage war against another son of man? Is it not the Lord who wages war with justice and with righteousness? In judging whether to judge between Obama and McCain (and not voting) we need God’s perspective not our perspective of what his perspective is but only God’s perspective. To see the situation as he wants us to see it and not as we of our own understanding see it. That goes for most if not all things in life. As it is written as many as are led by The Spirit of God are sons of God.
October 24th, 2008 @ 8:49 am
Mwiya, your first scenario is easy. As Christians we have a duty to obey the civil authority unless such action requires us to disobey God. So, no, a Christian doctor should not perform an abortion even if ordered to do so by the state.
Concerning your war time scenario, that is not so easy. I say that in this example it is a matter of Christian conscience. Some would say it is OK for a soldier who is a Christian to kill the enemy if it is a just war, but others would say it is not OK. I would say that this is a matter upon which Christians can legitimately disagree, but you seem to be saying there is only one appropriate view. On the issue of pacifism in general I would say that this is not an appropriate Christian response because I think we have a duty to love our neighbour and that includes protecting our neighbour from harm by using force if necessary.
Concerning judging between Obama and McCain, we do have God’s perspective to the degree that He has provided if for us in His Word. We know that many of the things Obama supports are things that God is against – abortion and same-sex marriage being two of the most obvious. We also know that these examples are more important than other issues like the state of the economy for example. So God has given us guidelines with which to make an informed judgment – is it not our duty to do so and vote accordingly? Remembering that we will have to one day give an account of the things we do (or fail to do) in this life.
October 25th, 2008 @ 4:56 pm
Ewan, in my opinion I believe you’re right on. Well spoken, “by using force if necessary”, is the cornerstone of civil protection. Without this philosophy then society collapses and warfare reigns. We are all, to varying degrees, covetous of heart and without the fear of real consequences for wrong actions then a “wolf like” mentality pervades. If God is the sole agent of justice then why aren’t the guilty punished immediately? If God doesn’t want any of us to die then why do we? Hasn’t God used men to do His will throughout Human history? David wasn’t fit to construct the temple because he had too much blood on his hands, but didn’t David do as he was instructed? Throughout human history God HAS used men to administrate His will. Why would that not be the case now? Right now, in Darfur, there is a campaign of genocide being waged by wolves against lambs. Who would extol this as virtuous? Isn’t it the height of hypocrisy to preach righteousness and justice, with the warning of judgment, and yet stand by passively while the lambs are being slaughtered? How is it that even the unsaved can comprehend justice, if justice is a fruit of the Spirit? Every human heart has a thirst for justice, and I appeal to this when witnessing, it’s what makes the Law reasonable, and Christ’s atonement rational. His water abates our thirst. We are all of us endowed with the gift of discernment, our conscience, and by responding to our conscience we seek after God. It’s discernment that allows us the ability to see the truth of Gods word, and free will that allows us the ability to accept and convert to God’s will, and the indwelling of the Spirit that keeps us seeking after God and encourages us to share our faith even to the point of our own peril. Should we descend on Darfur and exterminate the wolves with extreme prejudice? No, I don’t think any Christian would ever advocate this. But should we do nothing but pray? No, I don’t believe that’s the answer either. So with great reluctance, we resign ourselves to do what we wish we could avoid and pray that God gives us the strength to overcome. The perpetrator always seeks to destroy, while the just always seek to preserve. God bless, your friend Rick
October 25th, 2008 @ 6:09 pm
Rick,
Suppose you are a ten year old in school. You see a class mate smaller than you being bullied by bigger kids. Do you go there and beat up the guys who are beating up the smaller kid, or do you tell the teacher and let the discipline enforced by the school take its course? Do you avenge your brothers or leave that to others. Our brothers are dying in Dafur, its sad. But its part of the job description of being a christian, you have to be obedient to death and they die knowing that they are being faithful to God. Should we then say “we who have murdered 50 million babies over the last 30 or so years should go and show these Sudanese what righteousness is?” Come on now, if anything the Sudanese should would be more morally justified in coming over to America to do that which you are talking of. Sudan has not killed as many people as the U.S. has, both the they who are in the womb and they who are out of the womb.
Its not for us out of our own conscience to make decisions that we think uphold righteousness. God is judge, He will judge all sinners at the time HE has set. What we should do regarding things like abortion, Dafur etc is make noise! Expose the sinfulness of what is happening so that people can see. But enforcing our will on others to protect civil liberties is not our job. if that was the case Paul would have been a poster-boy for anti-slavery movements in Rome and gender equality etc. Shining our lights is about how we walk and talk (preaching the Gospel and walking in the Spirit). We should keep within the limits that God has set for us. Expose the dark but don”t go thinking you can put handcuffs on it.
In regards to how you see the OT, its about context. David and other OT saints could shed blood because they had to protect the inheritance God gave them and God supported that as long as it was done His way. For us, our Kingdom is not of this world so how can we use guns etc to protect it? God is the one who protects it as it is His Kingdom. There is a difference between those under Sinai and those who are from Heavenly Jerusalem.
October 25th, 2008 @ 6:15 pm
Rick,
I see the good intentions in what you are saying, don’t get me wrong. However I do think that is the type of thinking that has shed much blood and brought no real light, its been done over and over again. And to some extent though I don’t support Obama, I think what the Republicans do is evil too. For example how Bush claimed God told Him to go to war, that was just a ploy to get evangelicals behind Him and it worked. Are we so gullible? Over and over we think we can put things into our own hands. Even the very David you mention consulted prophets and seers before going to battle as did many other kings. They just didn’t go even thought they had the Torah which details how to go to war. They waited on the Lord to see what He would say. We are doing what the Israelites did when they went to war without the consent of God and Moses warned them not to. If God wanted us to go to various wars He would tell us. He is not mute.
October 25th, 2008 @ 9:17 pm
Dear mwiya
1. Suppose you are a ten year old in school. You see a class mate smaller than you being bullied by bigger kids. Do you go there and beat up the guys who are beating up the smaller kid, or do you tell the teacher and let the discipline enforced by the school take its course? Do you avenge your brothers or leave that to others.
2. I believe I made it clear that revenge was not the objective; Should we descend on Darfur and exterminate the wolves with extreme prejudice? No, I don’t think any Christian would ever advocate this. But should we do nothing but pray? No, I don’t believe that’s the answer either. So with great reluctance, we resign ourselves to do what we wish we could avoid and pray that God gives us the strength to overcome. Isaiah 41:10 “Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy Elohim: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness”. The perpetrator always seeks to destroy, while the just always seek to preserve.
3. Also, I noticed in your example that you looked for intervention from “the school” and that would be consistent with my view that we look to the nations of earth to address the “bullies” in Darfur.
4. Our brothers are dying in Dafur, its sad. But its part of the job description of being a christian, (this seems a bit casual) you have to be obedient to death and they die knowing that they are being faithful to God.
5. are you suggesting that the people of the nation of Darfur would prefer to die, and would turn aside the armies of righteousness and instead embrace the death of their enemies? This would be the preferred response of the muslim murderers, as in their religious views they would claim vindication and validation. “Allah is with us” they would claim.
6. Should we then say “we who have murdered 50 million babies over the last 30 or so years should go and show these Sudanese what righteousness is?”
7. I personally have never murdered a child, abortion or otherwise, nor have I ever approved of those who do. And I never make the argument of retaliatory justification, your statement suggests the Muslims are on equal footing with us in America. While we’re far from perfect here (the U.S) our human rights record stands above any of the Islamic countries that institute sharia law. Are we perfect? Clearly not, but the people of the world desire to come here and live in numbers unequaled by any other nation. And I don’t think it’s the sin that’s attracting them. It’s the freedom and protection we enjoy here in the west, and the prosperity that’s provided by God.
8. Its not for us out of our own conscience to make decisions that we think uphold righteousness. God is judge, He will judge all sinners at the time HE has set. What we should do regarding things like abortion, Dafur etc is make noise!
9. I agree with you, we are to proclaim Christ crucified, (Jesus and our NEED for Him), however, without freedom this becomes severely restricted. God smiles on this country, my own comfortable living is a testimony of this, but this country is also turning slowly away from God, and that’s why it’s important for us as Christians to elect McCain.
10. With sincere love and always your brother, Rick
October 25th, 2008 @ 9:26 pm
Dear mwyia, of what use is noise devoid of action? wouldn’t that be like a tree that poduced no fruit?
October 25th, 2008 @ 10:07 pm
I’d be curious what Dr. Browns take is on all of this. Iv’e noticed he’s remained silent.
October 26th, 2008 @ 1:51 am
“It’s not for us out of our own conscience to make decisions that we think uphold righteousness”. Dear mwiya, I’m not trying to pick on you, but, isn’t part of the purpose of the conscience to instruct us on “right” behavior? If we can make the correct choice in matters such as “should I return this wallet I found to its rightful owner”? And acknowledge and do as our conscience informs us is the “right” action, is it not reasonable to think that “something has to be done to stop the murder of innocents in Darfur” is also the correct response? Would we not then be responding to God and doing His will? If we have the capability do we not also have the obligation? I appreciate your taking the time to correspond; my formal prayers have increased as a result. Forever your friend, Rick
October 26th, 2008 @ 2:19 am
mwiya, “It’s not for us out of our own conscience to make decisions that we think uphold righteousness”. Dear mwiya, I’m not trying to pick on you, but, isn’t part of the purpose of the conscience to instruct us on “right” behavior? If we can make the correct choice in matters such as “should I return this wallet I found to its rightful owner”? And acknowledge and do as our conscience informs us is the “right” action, is it not reasonable to think that “something has to be done to stop the murder of innocents in Darfur” is also the correct response? If we have the capability do we not also have the obligation? Would’nt this be considered to be doing God’s will? I appreciate your taking the time to correspond; my formal prayers have increased as a result. Forever your friend, Rick
October 26th, 2008 @ 1:56 pm
Rick,
I like your comments thats why I reply, I don’t think your picking on me don’t worry brother
Prayer comes before action. Waiting on the Lord is always the best thing to do, then we do what ever God says we should do. He is the commander we are the soldiers, prayer is there for a reason. A foot soldier does nothing before His commanding officer tells Him to, that is why Jesus prayed before picking the twelve, that is why Jesus prayed before he was arrested, that is why Paul tells us not to despise prophesies and tells us to pray always. We have to be in line with HQ. Prayer is so important we should not play it down in exchange for quick action. Our intentions may be good but the results may be bad.
There are those moral choices we make daily because God has given us clear instruction on what to do in certain situations, if we walk in the Spirit our thinking becomes conformed to that which is godly. So we act on the word through the leading of The Holy Spirit. However there are situations like the Dafur situation or Iran where we don’t know how to act because (a) Sudan is a sovereign nation (b) There is no clear instruction on how to act with sovereign nations. That said there is a way to act with rulers of nations, that is preaching the gospel to them. Should we lobby for economic sanctions etc? Or rather shouldn’t we pray for them that they be strong in this time of persection? That God will be with them as He has always been? There are things we can do as christians to help our brothers and sisters like provide financial help and adopt orphans. But as a soldier knows that going to war means certain death so a christian living in a hostile country knows that it means certain death. When we are persecuted its a reminder that we aren’t of the world.
Should we do nothing as the world does evil, no we shine our lights. The romans were foreign invaders that the jewish people looked at with disdain. But did Jesus incite revolution against them? Nope. Some would say “ah he sat and watched his brethren work as slaves for the evil romans.” But that isn’t so, what He wanted is the inside to be cleaned. What Sudan needs more is more christian missionaries, to go there whether legally or illegally, thats what nations like Iran need too. They need the Gospel. Let God deal with the rest. We are not here to make the nations civilized. Were here to make disciples out of them.
October 26th, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
Rick,
iron sharpens iron.
love you bro
October 26th, 2008 @ 2:33 pm
Dear mwiya, it’s been a great discussion and has caused me to carefully consider what I believe. Examine this passage in Luke’s Gospel and see if maybe it doesn’t support my views;
22:35 Then89 Jesus90 said to them, “When I sent you out with no money bag,91 or traveler’s bag,92 or sandals, you didn’t lack93 anything, did you?” They replied,94 “Nothing.” 22:36 He said to them, “But now, the one who95 has a money bag must take it, and likewise a traveler’s bag96 too. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. 22:37 For I tell you that this scripture must be97 fulfilled in me, ‘And he was counted with the transgressors.’98 For what is written about me is being fulfilled.”99 22:38 So100 they said, “Look, Lord, here are two swords.”101 Then he told them, “It is enough.”102
These are his Disciples he’s instructing to carry swords.
Sincerely, your brother Rick
October 26th, 2008 @ 4:54 pm
Dear mwiya, notice Jesus says; two swords are sufficient. Not, “you no longer need swords”, or “all of you, (the twelve) procure swords”, but rather those two swords would suffice. The disciples were armed in His presence, and He does not command them to abandon their swords, but rather he tells them to remain armed (and that if they should lose a sword then get another) and that he would insure that they would be victorious through Him. So it appears that they are instructed to defend themselves, but not to all become armed to make war. A further examination reveals that He’s instructed them to take the money He’s provided and pack their belongings for a journey to other places. To go out and make disciples, and not to be caught defenseless. Awaiting your consideration, your brother, your brother Rick
October 26th, 2008 @ 5:10 pm
Dear mwiya, this might interest you. http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-48.htm
October 26th, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
also, i found this today, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3F2YHU7Yc i’m sure you’ll find it interesting.
October 27th, 2008 @ 10:50 am
Rick,
You make an interesting point, but isn’t it in Luke also where Jesus tells Peter to put his sword back in its sheath? Also if we look at the reality of what often happened to some apostle’s is that they got stoned and did not retaliate, take the situation when Paul got stoned. Barnabas was there but we’re not told if he tried to defend Paul. The scripture you’ve taken from Luke got me thinking a few days ago when I first read it properly and took note of it. I still don’t understand it in light of every thing else that happened that night and through the apostle’s conduct as recorded in the Acts.
October 27th, 2008 @ 10:52 am
Rick,
Thanks for the links!! Great scriptural rebuttal
I’ll meditate on it.. ask the Lord a few questions
October 27th, 2008 @ 12:57 pm
Dr. Brown,
I’m behind in listening to your show. The availability of your Podcasts is often delayed. It seems on this show a number of listeners objected to abortion being a recurrent theme on your show. They seem to make the point that there are many other sins. The question really becomes, if a Christian believes abortion to be sin (i.e., that life begins at conception), then is the support of any candidate that supports such sin wrong? People seem to be seeing the focus on the CONTENT of the sin, rather than the fact that a candidate that supports the legalization of any sin, is simply wrong. Let X=some given sin. Then for a Christian any candidate that supports the legalization of X is not in harmony with the will of God. It should not matter if X is the gay agenda, abortion or adultery. If X is wrong in the sight of God, it is wrong. Further, it seems there is a Biblical principle…As the leadership of Israel went, so went the nation of Israel as a whole. If this principle is valid then it seems to also follow for the United States.
If we can agree that as Christians we should not vote for candidates that support X, then it seems the real issue is in convincing Christians, that X is truly sin. For Many Christians, like Obama, defining the moment life begins is “above their pay grade”. It seems that it is the nature of this country to always give the benefit of the doubt to the greatest potential moral good. Someone is innocent until proven guilty. When a mine collapses, valiant efforts are made to rescue miners on the assumption that they just might be alive. We do not say, it is “above my pay grade”, to know if the miners are alive so let’s just not bother with such expensive and inconvenient rescue attempts. Such examples could be multiplied many fold (e.g., rescues in world trade center, plane crashes etc.). It is strange that our principle of recognizing the sacredness of even potential life does not apply to the unborn.
I think there is confusion among Christians as to when X really constitutes sin. The world quotes to us the oldest line in history “”Has God indeed said….” Gen 3:1. If the world can reinterpret what Scripture “really means” then the battle is lost.
October 27th, 2008 @ 5:31 pm
One of my earlier comments above answers the question S. Johnson raises concerning those callers who reckon we should be giving equal weight to sins beside abortion. Here it is again with some additions:
I’ve had a chance to listen to this show now. The podcasts are a blessing to us international listeners. What amazed me was how incredibly lame were the excuses the pro-Obama callers had to justify their intention to vote for him in the Christian context. It just reinforced to me the correctness of my opinion that an informed Christian cannot justify voting for Obama given his explicit support for abortion and same-sex marriage. One caller actually nominated “the economy” as the issue that God was most concerned about! That was a real jaw-dropper!
The only argument raised by a caller in favour of Obama, that even warrants a reply, is the one suggesting a moral equivalence between victims of abortion and victims of the Iraq war. Even if you don’t think the Iraq war qualifies as a just war (and unlike the subject of abortion that is an issue upon which there is room for Christians to disagree) there still isn’t moral equivalence for the following reasons:
1) The victims of abortion are deliberately targeted whereas the civilian casualties of the Iraq war were not deliberately targeted, they were unintentional casualties;
2) In terms of innocence, the victims of abortion are the most innocent category of any victims of injustice;
3) In terms of numbers killed, the numbers of victims of abortion killed worldwide each year number about 50 million. What war ever had annual casualty numbers anywhere near this? The one million plus abortions in the USA each year alone vastly out number total casualties from the Iraq war.
4) The victims of abortion are the most defenseless and the most voiceless of any category of people suffering injustice.
October 27th, 2008 @ 5:54 pm
Ewan,
I agree with you here, the genocide on children is probably one of the worst atrocities ever done by men. Over 50 million abortions since the 70′s in the U.S. alone I think who knows how many millions have perished in China and Europe. Abortion is definitely something that is extremely important. I’ve actually been thinking about it the last few days and you are right based of casualties alone this far outstrips any war thus far. That said, you only mention civilian casualties of the Iraq war. I think seeing as it was not a provoked war the army casualties count as murders because they were doing what any sane human being would do when attacked. Defend their country. The fact that it was christians that supported an unprovoked war is what is astonishing.
The argument to take the wars in context on bloodshed is important, I know agree with you that abortion is different in that (a) the sheer numbers of abortions (b) the defenselessness of the unborn.
That said, other things which are less weighty but none the less very important must be considered such as (a) general rise in violence (b) sexual promiscuity (c) T.V. perversity (d) corruption (e) fighting the homosexual agenda (e) stopping the warmongering (f) other moral perversions you can mention.
Don’t you think the harder christians make it for their vote to be won the better the candidate they end up choosing. Its how markets work, customer’s with high standards will only be willing to buy products up to their standards. If christians make it so easy for the republicans by having only two major issues to fight over they’re allowing themselves to be used by the GOP. Whereas if christians say “hey if you want our vote you’re going to have be an exceptionally upright person.” Then you’re really making the GOP and the Democratic party run for their money. You’re also showing the abortionists, fornicators etc that christians stand for righteousness not just abortion and homosexuality (which are serious don’t get me wrong). Why make your vote cheap?
October 28th, 2008 @ 12:31 am
On the Iraq war, arguably it was not an “unprovoked” war considering 9-11. In any case, even without 9-11 I believe it qualifies as a just war on the basis of removing a tyrannical and murderous regime.
I agree with your list of sins except for “stopping the warmongering” to which I would ask “What warmongering?” unless you are referring to the Islamists.
The difficulty with regard to the Christian influence on elections in the USA is the relatively small genuinely born again and thinking Christian constituency and the fact that the US has first-past-the-post electoral system rather than the fairer preferential system which would favour the type of voting you suggest.
October 28th, 2008 @ 5:05 am
Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. Even on the basis of removing a murderous regime it’s unjust. Consider this. Would another country be justified in warring against the u.s. Over it’s 40 million plus abortion body count. That’s far worse than anything saddam did, he didn’t kill that many people. That said i agree with your points
October 28th, 2008 @ 5:30 pm
Touche, Mwiya. I’m very interested to hear Ewan’s thoughts on the abortion point.
October 28th, 2008 @ 10:45 pm
Were there a nation more powerful and more godly than the USA, then yes, such a fictitious nation would be justified in using military force to stop the evil practice of abortion in the USA. Unfortunately no such nation exists. So I can say without fear of contradiction that the USA was entirely justified in removing the murderous and tyrannical former Iraqi regime.
The assertion that “Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11″ is highly disputable and commonly repeated by leftist opponents of the war. Be careful you don’t just accept such assertions on face value.
October 29th, 2008 @ 8:06 am
I should’ve added a couple of qualifiers to the scenario (see above) where a hypothetical stronger and more godly nation were to use force if necessary to end the evil practice of abortion in the USA.
As the many Christian critics of the Iraq war will know (because they surely wouldn’t criticise the war without first being at least somewhat familiar with just war theory), before it were undertaken, such action would have to have a reasonable expectation of success and meet the criteria of proportionality (that the human cost on both sides would be justified by the intended outcome). Given that the USA is a nuclear power, then a hypothetical more powerful and more godly nation would most likely not risk a conflict over the issue of abortion because of MAD.
On the subject of just war, below is the concluding statement from an article in CT magazine written by Chuck Colson: Just War in Iraq
October 29th, 2008 @ 11:15 am
How are you going to claim moral superiority on a country that has murdered 50 million of its own unborn children? Thats a living contradiction. America is on the level of Mao’s china and Stalin’s russia. The U.S. is just as politically corrupt as any nation as we have seen over and over again.
The good things that have come out of the U.S. like missions are of God and he has done that with many other peoples. But look at the wickedness and you see men being men. That war scholar is wrong. He is using his faith to justify American hegemony. How does that glorify God? Killing for the sake of love? Maybe in his mind this works. However reality and mans thinking are different. Iraq is far more dangerous after the U.S. invaded it that before Saddam was over thrown. And Iran hold more influence over Iraq now than it did during Saddam. It seems we’ve given up evangelizing and taken up political theory. Saddam couldn’t attack the U.S. so the imminent attack theory in your comment doesn’t seem to fit the occasion. Perhaps you can explain it a little more to me.
That said, the issue here is not spreading the Gospel its maintaining American Hegemony. Notice you’ve changed from using 9-11, to just-war, to preventing an imminent attack. None of which have happened in reality. The Iraq war was for none of the above. Only God can say what a just war is, he alone wages righteous war in justice. Which prophet told America God is ok with the Iraq war since we are fond of using Old testament types to defend war. I’m sure God would have given us some prophetic word if he was ok with us murdering thousands of children of Adam. I’m sure He would have told us He is ok with us taking lives in his name.
I wonder if a scholar said, abortion can be done in a godly way would you agree with Him? Maybe he could call it abortion theory. The godly way to lay the unborn to rest, for the good of our neighbor’s. I’m using an unreal example to show how unreal war theory is. Its unchristian. Only God decides if a child will be still born or not. He is the giver of Life and He alone can take it justly, we can’t. Let God be the judge lest you be judged in the measure you have judged others. Testifying as to whether something is wrong by using discernment is different to screaming “stone the adulterer.” As christians we tell the adulterer to stop being an adulterer we don’t stone Him. What you are for is for us to start stoning the unrighteous, are you completely righteous yourself? What about America’s sins, do we forget them. Yet we pass deadly judgment on Iraq?
Jesus will judge the nations, leave that to Him. As for christians let them mind their own business and preach the Gospel and expose darkness by shining their lights. If christians want to change the way politics is done they should be like John the baptist who told Herod to leave Herodias. Or Paul who testified before Caesar.
October 29th, 2008 @ 11:33 am
Hey Mwiya
I dont know if Iraq war is justified or not from the perspective many talk about and i do agree that Jesus will judge the nations.
However if you look at the Old Testament pattern,God used nations to judge other nations.I do think that pattern still exsists today.
While people have given so many different reasons for the Iraq war there were some prophets who said that “Iraq war was God’s judgement on that nation” .If we believe in God’s hand in the world events then we can also believe that God used America to bring judgement on Iraq.
As far as the inocent people who were killed in the war, again if the sins of a land reaches its fulness God has to judge.
He brings judgement in various ways,earthquakes,famines …. war is another one.
The fact is people gave so many different reasons for the war and people might not have had the right motives or intentions but in the end we can say God accomplished His judgements.
It could be translated into the same way when Nebucadnezzar invaded Israel.He was a pagan king,he had political ambitions and he was wicked.
However he was able to conquer Israel only because God was using him as an instruement for judgement.
Blessings
John
October 29th, 2008 @ 6:48 pm
Mwiya, I have to say I’m quite astounded by your willingness to misrepresent me, use strawman arguments, and your arrogance in dismissing the views of the church fathers and Christian leaders of today if they happen to disagree with you.
You seem to be suggesting that because the USA is guilty of the sin of abortion (and it is) then it is no position to do any good in the world or even say what another nation is doing is wrong. It doesn’t follow. None of us are perfect and yet God still expects us to do right.
Your claim that “America is on the level of Mao’s china and Stalin’s russia” is really taking moral equivalence to a new level. As I’m not an American I’ll leave others to defend America, but I would hazard a guess that you might get some opposition to this view.
You said “Notice you’ve changed from using 9-11, to just-war, to preventing an imminent attack”, but I’ve done nothing of the kind. All those things were a factor in justifying the Iraq war, and I referred to them because you argued against these reasons, but I would still point to regime change as being the least disputable qualifier for just war. You can argue that Iraq had no involvement in 9-11 (but that is disputed), you can argue against the possibility of imminent attack (but that is also disputed especially with regard to the threat Iraq posed to Israel – an ally of the USA), but no one really argues that Saddam was a kind and benevolent ruler who didn’t murder thousands of Iraqi citizens. You further claim that “The Iraq war was for none of the above” meaning neither involvement in 9-11, to prevent an imminent attack, or for regime change. So in your mind what was the real reason? This is where opponents of the Iraq war start to get weird claiming all sorts of conspiracy theories. You are sounding more and more like just another extreme leftist war critic with claims like “Iraq is far more dangerous after the U.S. invaded it that before Saddam was over thrown.”
Your comment that “It seems we’ve given up evangelizing and taken up political theory” again confuses the different roles of church and state. As I said to you in a previous comment, it is the responsibility of the church to preach the Gospel (a role many churches now neglect) and the responsibility of the state to protect life, liberty and property. This is the way God has designed it (although neither role would have been needed in a pre-fall world).
Your rhetorical question that “I wonder if a scholar said, abortion can be done in a godly way would you agree with Him?”, is not as mad you probably intended. Christian ethics does permit abortion (although the term ‘abortion’ is not usually used in this case) in cases where a continuing pregnancy poses a genuine threat to the physical life of the mother.
To claim that “What [I am] for is for us to start stoning the unrighteous” is a complete misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the issues. Your statement “As for christians let them mind their own business and preach the Gospel” sounds remarkably similar to what the critics of William Wilberforce said to him during his fight to outlaw the practice of slavery. Lord Melbourne for example told Wilberforce, “Things have come to a pretty pass when religion is allowed to invade public life”.
October 30th, 2008 @ 8:46 am
Ewan,
I appologise for misrepresenting you in my arguments, I wrote down what I perceived you to be saying. Since you have said that is not what you were saying I appologize. I misunderstood you. That said, I may sound like a leftist, but in the U.S. paleo-conservatives have stood against the Iraqi war just as much as leftists. I’m not a liberal, neither am I a leftist. And personally I don’t care much for the writings of the early ‘fathers.’ That is my opinion, I may be called arrogant for that but thats fine. Augustine didn’t understand the concept of millennialism, too me thats a astounding because its so obvious when one reads the text. I prefer to read for myself and let God show me His Truth, through others and through His Spirit. But I always discern for myself what is true or false and I prefer to keep to scripture rather than use church fathers or scholars to build an opinion. But thats me.
I have not painted Saddam as a benevolent man. I’m quite aware He was wicked. But like I said, should other countries invade America which has killed more of its own than Saddam? Have you ever heard of the taskegee experiments where blacks were used as lab rats for a syphilis experiment? This didn’t happen in the 40′s but in the 60′s. Thats not long ago. What about killing off the Native American’s was that godly? No country in this world is godly. All are under the power of the prince of the power of the air! Including the seemingly godly one’s. The only kingdom above the prince of the power of the air is The Kingdom of God whose King is The King of Kings.
In regards to slavery. Well What Wilberforce did was commendable, He shined His light. I’m in no way against that. What I’m against is warfare for any carnal or human reason. I can not see why as christians we would want to go to war. I can’t see why its such a stretch for us to pray that God defend us like He did Elisha. I don’t want to repeat myself so I won’t go much into this.
In regards to comparing the U.S. to Mao’s china. I do not see how that is a stretch. Which is more wicked to kill the unborn or to kill the unborn or the born? Either way with 50 million dead babies, I think the equivalence is there. The U.S. is not benevolent. Thats all I’m saying, is that it like any other country should be looked at for what it is. Namely wicked. Its part of the world and the world is in darkness. That said, the christians in America have done much good. And when I say good, I’m not talking philanthropy or developing technology etc. I’m talking about godliness.
Christians should mind their own business, Paul said this. He said we should work with our hands and mind our own business. If evil is done speak out against it. If christians had a problem with Saddam they should have gone to preach the gospel there and perhaps allowed the Iraqi’s to handle their own business.
In regards to aborting the life of a child so that the mother can live, well I would pray that God save both. Its not for me to play god, thats my opinion. God is our Healer and all things are possible with Him. In regards to the differing roles for church and state. The only reason any one could afford to think in those ways is because their country is majority christian. The Chinese house churches can not even dream of thinking like that, neither can the Iranians. To them there is a big wall of separation between the two. The State is of the world and they are in The Kingdom of God. That is how churches in the West should treat themselves, because of their freedom they should speak out against wickedness and evils. But that said, should they start supporting wars? Shouldn’t we be the one’s saying no to bloodshed and preaching forgiveness?
October 30th, 2008 @ 8:57 am
John,
Great comment
I agree with you. God did use nations to judge other nations. He used Babylon to chastise Israel, but then He used Persia to judge babylon also.
That would mean that today’s nations are due for a judgement also. I admire the amish for one thing. Minding their own business, they could do with a lot more evangelizing, but their peacefulness and timidity is something most people look at and can not raise a finger to. Given they do have problems but how they generally have dealt with people who hate them is commendable, a guy shoots their kids and they forgive him, they mourn. That one act of Love captures the hearts of many in the country. They could do a lot more evangelizing but I find that commendable.
What is your opinion?
October 30th, 2008 @ 9:09 am
Hey Mwiya
Can you fill me in more on Amish?I dont have a clue of who they are
Did you know that the leader of my nation(Mahatma Gandhi) won the war against the British by following the Biblical principle of showing the other cheek.It worked wonders.
Manytimes we dont realize that there are evil spirits working in the spiritual realm and the only way we overcome them is walking in the opposite spirit.One of them is showing Love were there is hatred.
Blessings
October 30th, 2008 @ 9:52 am
Here are some of Gandhi’s qoutes ,they are inspiring.Many believe a lot of it had to do with is inspirations form scripture as you can see.
“Hate the sin, love the sinner”.
” Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes ”
“The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong”
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”
“You must be the change you want to see in the world”
October 30th, 2008 @ 10:35 am
John,
Thanks for the info. here’s a link with some info on the amish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amish
Basically they are an anabaptist sect mostly found in the U.S. and Canada. They are pacifists and generally submissive and hold to anabaptist traditions like adult baptism for example. Thanks for the Ghandi quote’s.
I ask myself a questions like, do most people perceive Jesus as sovereign King with a religious High Priestship or simply just a religious figure of history? Considering that Jesus talked of how He could ask for angels to come and defeat the soldiers who were about to arrest him whilst in Gethsemene, don’t yout think we should have the same trust that if God wanted to protect His children He would send angels to protect or rescue us as He did to Peter on several occasions. Do people think Paul should have attacked his enemies when they were about to stone Him?
These questions are hard, but I think its good for one to ask themselves such questions at times.
October 30th, 2008 @ 8:16 pm
Ewan,
Regarding Wilberforce and slavery. As a black male I will say I’m against slavery but do realise that every race on this earth has at one point been a slave. There have been serfs, bondservants etc. What was horrific about the Atlantic slave-trade is not necessarily the fact that slaves were traded (which is evil yes), but it was how they were transported and treated. We also tend to forget that African’s sold other African’s it was not a unilateral thing were people were kidnapped randomly by westerners and then sold off. I’m glad the slave trade was ended and that it was a christian brother who was involved in this. Only ilumination from God can result in such thinking. The principle being all sinners are created equal. So how can one sinful son of Adam sell another one? We are all descendants of Adam and are one blood. The idea of slavery is part of christianity we are slaves ourselves. We have been purchased at a price, it may be hard for us to comprehend today but we are the property of God. Bought and purchased through the blood of Christ. God’s richness towards us, at Christ expense. Quite simply this is Grace. He who is Lord over all has the right and power to buy us and as such redeem us and He did. In regards to sinners enslaving one another, I’d rather have upright slaves who fear God, than freed men who are enemies of God. For if both the slave and the slave owner realised the fact that in God’s eyes they are equal they would see that there social statuses mean nothing. Whether slave or free Christ’s remains sovereign over all. King over all.
Don’t get me wrong. What Wilberforce did was shine a light, highlighting a great truth than no one man is better than another as we are all sinners. Only Christ is better than all of us, for He is Holy and even more He is God in flesh. He has the divine right to rule over us yet he chose to serve.
I feel the brunt of racism often, people stare at me like I’m some alien from another planet. I once was walking on a street and this couple as soon as they saw me, got off the side walk and walked around me using the road..lol…Its ignorant but I don’t care. Neither should any one who is Christian and is hated because of their social standing or class. Whether poor, slave or free, rich or prince. All have been saved by God’s mercy and are equal in His sight.
Is it better to have people who have civil liberties for 70-80 years on this earth but spend eternity in Hell. Or have slaves who maybe slaves on this earth for 70-80 years but are spend their eternity with God in the liberty of His joy forever. The parable of lazarus and the rich man comes to mind. The principle of freedom in this world seems like a christian pursuit, but its really not. What we offer is Eternal freedom, that what Paul preached to both slaves and free men. To Kings and to paupers, to Jews and to Greeks. Christ Crucified and raised from the dead. Ascended on High and sat at the Fathers right hand, above all powers and principalities. Above every name that is named. What Wilberforce showed if anything, is that men are equal, the legacy should not be oh he stopped slavery. No His legacy should be he showed us that all men, are equal. All men are under sin and in need of salvation. And in seeing this great truth, this truth showed by one who named the name of the Lord. The men of England realised that it is not right to enslave another sinner, when they are slaves themselves. For they who are not of Christ are slaves to sin, and there is no worse slavery than that. The song Wilberforce Himself knew, I once was bling and now I see should be the song that slaves of sin should come to know through Christ’s saving Grace. For True emancipation comes from Christ. It is better to be a slave of man but be a free in the Lord than to be free in the sight of the world but be a slave to sin. For whilst slavery in the flesh is temporary for the Glory of the resurrection is sure for them, destruction is certain for them who are slaves of sin.
Wilberforce shined His Light by showing men the Truth of their condition. He was a great example of a man who caused social change, Martin L. King is there too. I just hope people remember them for the right reasons. Because of the precepts they understood, not because of civil liberties in and of themselves. Thats the type of change Obama is trying to come off as supporting, trying to put Himself in the ranks of MLK for his support of the LGBT agenda. I say this as a black man. Others may disagree, but thats my two cents.
Sorry for coming off as arrogant. I have learned a great deal from you…:)
October 30th, 2008 @ 8:17 pm
check out this link.
http://ourpatienthope.wordpress.com/2008/09/27/memoirs-of-an-ex-slave-reflections-of-a-soul-saved-by-gods-grace/
October 30th, 2008 @ 11:36 pm
Mwiya, it pains me to my soul to think of people being treated unfairly/ racial discrimination. You have some interesting views and I enjoy the correspondence. Please continue posting, your brother Rick
October 31st, 2008 @ 10:20 am
Rick,
Thanks for the encouragement, I love your comments too. They have forced me to think of the reality of how we are supposed to live on earth as opposed to how we as christians think we should live. Its forced me to seek God’s perspective on many issues. Thanks a lot for the edification.
Your brother Mwiya
October 31st, 2008 @ 11:19 am
Hey Mwiya
)
Thanks for the link.
I think all of us have different measures of faith or we have grown in faith to different degrees .
“So be it unto you according to your faith”
What i mean by that is if you have faith to believe God will protect you and its His will,He definetly will ,even if it has to do with Him sending angels
If i dont have that kind of faith then i will run and hide.
However i think it all comes to this,”you hearing the Spirits voice and obeying “.
I dont think God will allow His children to find themselves in such a situation unawares.He always forewarns and if we have to go through it He prepares us.
I think several examples from Russia might prove this..
At the time i was there,,a group called the skinheads was beating and trying to kill foreigners there.
Oneday i was walking down a lonely street and didnt notice three guys with evil intentions.One of them came as if to greet me and hit me hard on my chest.He expected me to fall so that the others can pounce on me .Amazingly as skinny as i was then i didnt feel a thing and stood there as a rock.This surprised everybody there and before they could gather themselves i ran to the main street were there a lot of people and escaped.
I believe it was God that protected me but at the same time i had use some common sense and run.
(Hey Mwiya i just looked up the title and realized it was out of topic,so ill stop there…..
November 1st, 2008 @ 8:23 am
Rick,
Thats an amazing testimony none the less
Thanks for sharing
I do agree with you also.
November 2nd, 2008 @ 9:34 pm
Mwiya, that aspect of your reply that I felt was arrogant was not simply to be disagreeing with church fathers or present day church leaders (which I do often myself most commonly where it concerns compromise over the Creation account as described in Genesis), but the manner in which you appeared to be dismissive of the views where they disagree with your own. It didn’t appear to me that you were making much of an effort to put an alternative argument – just in effect saying that they don’t know what they’re talking about.
Your statement that: “I prefer to read [the Bible] for myself and let God show me His Truth, through others and through His Spirit. But I always discern for myself what is true or false and I prefer to keep to scripture rather than use church fathers or scholars to build an opinion.”, is dangerous if taken too far. We all have a piece of the puzzle (as Dr. Brown is fond of saying), meaning that we should be prepared to learn from other Christians and that should include in large part the church fathers of the past almost 2000 years. Think of the various creeds for example which have been very useful in defining what the true church believes and guarding against heresy.
It seems to me you haven’t properly addressed the example of Wilberforce and MLK. In defending both these men you are contradicting your claim that “As for christians let them mind their own business and preach the Gospel”. Both of these men used direct political means to bring about righteous reforms in their nation. You can’t have it both ways.
November 2nd, 2008 @ 10:32 pm
Here’s a couple of more links to relevant articles:
The October issue of Judeo-Christian View dealing with Obama’s positions on abortion and same-sex marriage. Note especially the photo of the Obama campaign literature being distributed to churches.
7 Reasons Why Barack Obama Is Not A Christian campaign by the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission.
November 3rd, 2008 @ 12:13 pm
Here is why I’m leaning strongly toward Obama but am still staying home–
Obama’s view on abortion strongly upsets me. Even so, he believes we should reduce abortions, which is something that Republicans HAVE NOT DONE, despite being elected over this single issue. Until Republicans fight for the rights of the unborn, instead of using it as an issue to get voters, I don’t think this issue is one that forces Christians to vote Republican. Also, McCain in the last debate did not make me feel confident he would elect a pro-life justice in the Supreme Court.
Obama and Biden have said they would not support gay marriage, but they would support civil unions so that gays can visit each other in hospitals and have inheritance rights. I don’t personally feel that Christians telling gays what to do (so long as they aren’t hurting the unwilling or minors) is God’s plan. I think it’s His plan that we GET THEM SAVED. We can stop gays from getting married all we want, but that will push them away from Christ instead of showing them His love. This is not a MAJOR issue to me, but I can respect where conservative Christians are coming from. It is important to strengthen the family, but if we go against gay marriage we must use family arguments and statistics instead of gay-bashing.
Obama’s stance on taking care of the impoverished in the U.S. and all over the world is a Christian issue. There are over 2,000 verses in the Bible that command us to take care of the poor that politically conservative Christians don’t seem to care about.
On the other hand, McCain is not consistently pro-life because he has a hugely hawkish foreign policy. When a person says it’s sometimes okay to kill another human being if the circumstances warrant it, that is PRO-CHOICE.
But because I am pro-life across the board, I cannot support a candidate who is okay with killing babies, whether unborn through abortion or born through war. This is why I am staying home and praying. I do hope that Obama gets elected, but only if he doesn’t get to nominate any supreme court justices. Simultaneously, if McCain does get elected, I pray that he will not implement his unchristian foreign policy.
In case you’re interested, here is a Christian site for Obama–
Matthew25.org
November 3rd, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
P.S.–
Ewan, I visited the e-mail about 7 reasons why Obama is not a Christian. I don’t have flash on this computer but I read the transcript on the reason related to his disbelief on the inerrancy of Scripture. There is one incomplete quote they use to justify this, and I wanted to find the context so I could know what he was really saying. I can give you ONE reason why the “7 reasons” site is not Christian– they are liars.
Here is the context of the quote:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/juneweb-only/127-11.0.html
He doesn’t say he disbelieves in Scripture, but that he cannot invoke Scripture solely when making a policy decision that affects many non-Christians as well. One example he gives is when he says he may disagree with abortion as a matter of his faith, but if he is going to make policy decisions to ban it, he must invoke universal principles that everyone can grasp. I agree with this principle in some instances, but when innocent children are being murdered, I don’t really care what non-Christians say to justify it. I would do what I can to overturn it.
November 3rd, 2008 @ 1:30 pm
I agree with you almost completely David, good to hear your stance!
November 3rd, 2008 @ 1:42 pm
Ryan– glad to hear it. I would really like to see us look at the broad spectrum of how our faith should affect our politics instead of just picking the issues that fit with our party. Martin Luther King never endorsed a candidate– he supported what was right and pushed the candidates to endorse HIS policies. Why should we settle for a political party when we can push candidates to support taking care of all people, unborn or otherwise?
November 3rd, 2008 @ 5:44 pm
Ewan,
I do appreciate your comments. Thanks for your reply. I do think that a lot of what the ‘church fathers’ did was good. At the same time if any one who has the Holy Spirit reads the scripture its clear that the creeds they made are in the text. I didn’t need to know the nicene creed or the apostolic creed to understand the church or The Trinity. I knew it from reading scripture. I think in fact a lot of the doctrinal problems that we have today can be rooted in many of the early church ‘fathers’ themselves. Preterism for example, the whole idea of papal succession, clergy etc. Yes I do agree that we all have a bit of the picture but I’m also convinced that we can have more and more of the picture by letting God teach us through His Spirit and His word and listening to anointed teachers of the word but doing our own study to see if what they have taught is fact.
With all the various beliefs that theologians believe for me I can not believe that I should rely on them or on my own thinking to understand scripture, yes we all have a picture but Scripture has all the pictures God wants us to see, and we can’t see them all, nor can we understand them because God’s wisdom is unsearchable. But we can by His Grace see clearer every day. Like a blind man receiving sight not instantly but through a process done over time. Every day a little more clearer until the day we see our Lord face to face. For even at our best we see as through a cloudy glass, but when the day comes that we should be before the Lord we shall know Him as we are known. Things we couldn’t understand on earth He will show.
I trust in The Holy Spirit’s guidance, I believe that He uses people to teach just as much as He speaks to our spirit’s, stirs our hearts, speaks to us using scripture and even audibly talks to us and through visions. I believe that He uses anointed teachers, prophets etc to teach us we are brethren so He can use any one of us to teach another one. Where I lack you supply that which He has given you to sow into me, where you lack I pour that which he has given unto me to pour out into you.
In regards to MLk and Wilberforce, I understand where you are coming from and I have contradicted myself there. I would have to now agree with you that politics can be used as a soapbox to preach the Gospel. That said, I do believe any christian who would like to use politics as an instrument to preach the Gospel would have to stay completely true to it in all his dealings with other legislators. I think my description of what MLK and Wilberforce did in relation to scripture is a good description of using politics with a specific purpose. We are not here to make society civilized. We are here to bring people into the Kingdom. I believe if MLK’s preaching did not bring people into the Kingdom then people missed the point. The same goes for Wilberforce. And I think any other Christian politician who seeks to use politics as a soapbox. If people can not see Him first as a Christian who preaches the gospel and uses politics as a soapbox, there is a problem. I’ll give an example, creation scientists use science as a soapbox to show that there is a God and Jesus is His Messiah and Salvation is found in Him alone. Most people when they hear creationist think Christian guy trying to prove God’s existence using science. That to me is using science as a soapbox properly, the same should be done for politics.
The idea of a Christian democracy however to me is not plausible. This is nbecause the church is a nation-state and has a shepherding system outlined in scripture [nation in that we are a race, state in that it is a Kingdom, these being one in Christ who is both head of this new race and King of His Kingdom]. The shepherding system has Elders, Deacons, Bishops and then various ministries. These aren’t just religious, they are the means of shepherding Messiah’s community whilst we are still in this world. He is King over all. I see Him as a political figure. He is the King of Israel, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Though the people of ethnic Israel deny their King they will one day bless Him. To me I have one King, One Lord and one ruler. I think the Amish got it part right in the way they have shepherded themselves over the years.
Great points you made.
Cheers, thanks for the scrutinizing it helps to see my flaws so that I can ask God to change aspects of my character to reflect more of Him.
November 4th, 2008 @ 7:45 am
Mwiya, but you are wrong on this point where you said, We are not here to make society civilized. We are here to bring people into the Kingdom. We are to do both. It is the role of the church to preach the Gospel and the role of the State to “make society civilised”. Both are God ordained institutions. As I keep saying, “Civil government is an invention of God not of Man.” The following quote is from a recent article found here:
November 4th, 2008 @ 7:47 am
Mwiya, but you are wrong on this point where you said, “We are not here to make society civilized. We are here to bring people into the Kingdom.” We are to do both. It is the role of the church to preach the Gospel and the role of the State to “make society civilised”. Both are God ordained institutions. As I keep saying, “Civil government is an invention of God not of Man.” The following quote is from a recent article found here:
It is a part of our Christian mandate in being ‘salt and light’ to work for righteousness in society. We can do this in many ways including through politics and government. Have a look at Dr. Brown’s article on the Coalition of Conscience website: Our Biblical Mandate
(Sorry about the double up. This site needs the ability to preview before posting.)
November 4th, 2008 @ 9:14 am
David, almost everything you said is wrong.
Firstly, the Republicans HAVE reduced abortion. Dr. Brown has refuted that Obama lie on one of his programs already. Additionally, the Bush administration has promoted several prolife initiatives. The ban on partial birth abortion and the born alive infant protection act being two of them. President Clinton refused to give his consent to the former and as an Illinois state senator Obama voted against the latter. As president, Obama has said that one of his FIRST acts would be to introduce a Freedom of Choice Act which would overturn every State prolife law. How anyone, least of all professing Christians, can defend Obama on the abortion issue is beyond me. There is a powerful deception at work here.
Secondly, on the issue of state recognition of homosexual rights you are very confused. See On Relationship Recognition and also this is addressed by Frank Turek on the debate Can you be Gay and be a Christian? audio podcast.
Thirdly, you said “Obama’s stance on taking care of the impoverished in the U.S. and all over the world is a Christian issue. There are over 2,000 verses in the Bible that command us to take care of the poor that politically conservative Christians don’t seem to care about.” (This sounds like a quote from Jim Wallis.) You got one thing right here – poverty is a Christian issue, but it is not primarily a government issue. There is a name for when the state tries to eliminate poverty through welfare and policies of wealth redistribution – it is called socialism. From a Christian perspective, addressing poverty through aid is properly a responsibility of the church not the state. The state is concerned with justice but not wealth redistribution. The religious left think the two are synonymous and that both are the responsibility of the state. Free trade policies are about the only legitimate way that government can assist other nations out of poverty. Leave the provision of financial aid to individuals, churches and NGOs. And poverty IS something that politically conservative Christians care about and we have a much better track record at helping to reduce it than do the liberals.
Fourthly, you have a very superficial understanding of the Christian prolife position. The Christian prolife position is concerned with the unjust taking of innocent life. This is why we oppose abortion, but not why we oppose the taking of life under biblically allowable circumstances such as when the state carries out capital punishment for the crime of murder, for individuals in the case of self defense, during a ‘just war’, or when the police have to use lethal force. By your reasoning this makes me pro-choice. There is no moral equivalence between abortion and deaths due to a ‘just war’.
Concerning your comments re the article 7 reasons why Obama is not a Christian. As far as I’m concerned Obama’s position on abortion is reason enough in itself to disqualify him, so the other 6 reasons are superfluous.
Thanks for the link to the pro-Obama ‘Christian’ site. I did already know about it as it has had a lot of criticism from conservative Christian groups.
November 5th, 2008 @ 11:01 am
Ewan,
Because governments are an institution that God has allowed or ordained in order for order to be maintained in a fallen world does not mean that we are to take that ministry as our own. Paul makes it clear that that particular ministry is one of the sword, that a soldier carries the sword for a reason. It is one for the fallen, not for the saints. No where are christians commanded in the NT to go out and carry the sword to maintaine justice in the world. Let me put it this way, there are different ministries for different people. An evangelist will not be a prophet unless God calls Him to be a prophet for example. A better one is this, seraphim are called to a particular ministry that you can not do in the specifi way they do it, their role is tailor made for them. Every one has there place and should not break rank. We have our places. The world should not come into the church to impose on us how we are to worship so why should we go into the world to to impose on them how they should live? Our job is to proclaim that The Kingdom of God is coming, we are heralds of the Kingdom as well as emmisaries of The Lord, the King of that Kingdom declaring His Gospel. We live as light by doing God’s commandments.
There is a time for ruling that God has set, we shall rule with The Lord. The time will come when we shall reign on earth with Him.Until then let us mind our business (Gospel preaching), just like the angels mind the business God has given to them. The world is in darkness it doesn’t matter if it is civil or not, you can have the most civil society which is full of wickedness. What matters is whether people know Christ and are disciples of Him. The homosexual activists have made followers to their cause through preaching their wickedness. Look at how many people are now for them. If you want to fight that you have to use the Spiritual weapons that God has given us. Use the Word of God and preach to them and their followers so that they can see their wrong. They are in darkness, they need light.
Its fine to use various soapboxes, music, t.v., radio, politics what ever. As long as 100%Gospel is preached. Bust as soon as we adopt a social engineering programme we go off on a tangent. We must also realize the extreme difficulty it truly is to be completely true to the faith and then represent people who may be of different faiths as a christian. You have a commitment to them too, how do you fulfill that? Its a hard question. For me avoidance is easier, Paul’s advice to work with one’s hands seems to be solid advice. It’s a way of avoiding straying off in some weird direction. I see myself as part of a true kingdom, The Kingdom of God. My commitment should be to that Kingdom, to its King and our God. We should live in the world as soldiers, not as citizens, we should live as visitors, as pilgrims because that it what we are. Lets not get too comfortable. We have a mission, make disciples. If Jesus wanted us civilizing people He would have given a commandment in that regard.
God chose the foolisness of preaching for a reason. Whether it be live, on paper or video or audio. Preaching is the same, Christ crucified. I would like to see a senator give a sermon on the ressurection of Christ in the senate house, then after that perhaps the president give a sermon on the predestination of the elect or perhaps on the wrath God will pour out on the unbelievers. Then after that a congressman preach on the justification of the saints through Christ’s death as well as the remission of sins by the shedding of His blood. Then maybe after that He can go off and talk about how the death and resurrection is a historical fact when one conciders the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus Christ as well as the spread of the knowledge of YHWH to the nations to whom Jesus is a great light, also he might want to mention how there were 500 witnesses who saw the resurrected Christ, how it would be impossible for the disciples (who when Christ was arrested were so fearful) would suddenly become fearless and go to a tomb roll away a huge stone without making a squeek whilst the roman soldiers were apparently sleeping, understanding that they were breaking the seal affixed on it. Then He might want to mention Paul as a credible witness. When Politicians are able to talk about the Gospel in this manner without any shame preaching whilst C-span films them, I would say of that politician that he is a preacher using politics as a soapbox.
November 9th, 2008 @ 5:16 am
Full article here: Christian Political Involvement
See also:
The Case For Christian Social Involvement
Why Bother?
Salt and Light Business