February 18, 2009
February 18, 2009 | 29 Comments
Hour One: Is Your Screen Getting Pink?
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Hour Two: Is Anti-Zionism Anti-Semitic?
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February 18th, 2009 @ 4:54 pm
Here’s a photo of the Utah ad mentioned (warning, contains a picture of two men kissing): http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/roundshouse4/3281279835_c2cd9d0c94_b.jpg
The statement in bold that says “Homosexuality is NOT A RACE!” is interesting. I get the point, but I don’t see too many people out and out saying homosexuality is a “race.”
February 18th, 2009 @ 9:16 pm
I think the world is too pink , as the morals of the world are going south so to speak so is the homosexual llife style is on the rise. How can anyone fix their mouth to say that he or she was born “gay”is absolutely bogus, how can a child know what his or her preferance is . They don’t know oneway or another who or what they prefer. Why do so many people ingage in heteralsexual relationships then later in life flip the script, and viceversa. Its all about choice.I heard one of the comments on the show about the “love won out conf. and I see why those that are living the gay lifestyle remain . The comment was the conf. is a fluke and it wouldnt change anything if they were to attend , and they are absolutely right . With that mind set nothing would change because they would enter without faith or expectation, If they would read the word of God they can see when Jesus healed people that was stricken with disease, birth defects and even he almost always asked if they believed that he could help them , oh yeah he casted out evil and foul spirits too, only a few preachers will say thats what the sodomite spirit but I believe homosexuality is a foul spirit spreading throughout the land.
February 18th, 2009 @ 9:31 pm
As far as the land for peace deal with Israel and gaza is concerned everyone must understand hamas and other terrorist groups hating on Israel doesnt want the land they want the lives of all Jews. If you give hamas the world it wouldnt be worth having as long as Jews are in it. I know we want world peace but being naive doesnt help any.If Israel was anything but God’s chosen maybe it wouldnt matter as much, remember unbelievers hate God and all that has his name attached to him.
February 19th, 2009 @ 8:19 pm
To me Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitic for Anti-Zionists claim Israel has no right to that land which is not only God given but has been given by Israel from the British in 1948 and Israel since it’s birth have won war after war after war to claim rightful ownership of the land given to them. What more must they do?
Numerous Anti-Zionist conference’s have been held and they all feature anti-Semites as speakers, so yes, Anti-Zionism is Anti-Semitism in my opinion.
February 20th, 2009 @ 7:34 pm
William,
If being Anti-Zionist equals being anti-semetic, that would mean that a great deal of haredi jews (also called ultra orthodox) are anti-semetic. This does not make sense. Some one can be a person who loves jewish people and hates zionism at the same time.
check out this video it is of haredi jews demonstrating the state of israel. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oeB3QhX2RI
February 20th, 2009 @ 7:47 pm
I know of these groups. They are Jews who are acting in an anti-Semitic manner. These same organizations met and kissed ‘Achmegenocide’ and support the annihilation of Israel. If destroying and “raping” Israel is not anti-Semitic in your view, so be it. It is not impossible for Jews, especially leftist liberal Jews to act in anti-Semitic manner.
These Jews want Israel destroyed for they believe the Messiah must come first to establish Israel, not themselves.
Finally, a question for you: If I told you a Gentile supports the president of Iran “Achmagenocide” in wiping out Israel with a nuclear bomb would you say that gentile is an anti-Semite? If yes, read below.
Answer: There are Jews who support this very thing and many liberal Jews have gone so far to say they want the USA to “rape” Israel. Is is not impossible for someone of ethnicity to hate his own?
February 20th, 2009 @ 7:49 pm
Oh, and one last thing I forgot to say: Just go to “Anti-Zionist” websites and you tell me if they show Anti-Semitism. Don’t you realize that Anti-Zionism is just a new word by leftist moonbats for hating Jews aka Anti-Semitism? I’m sorry, but they are one and the same and maybe you’re right, maybe there are some unique cases but 99.9% of Anti-Zionism is just masked Anti-Semitism.
February 20th, 2009 @ 8:01 pm
If need sources here you go on the editor of Israel who told Condi that Israel needs to be “raped.”
http://www.thejewishweek.com/viewArticle/c41_a1531/News/Short_Takes.html
http://www.nysun.com/article/68612
Now tell me, if a Gentile said that, wouldn’t you say he is an anti-Semite or at least that was an anti-Semitic statement? If so, why can it not be the same for a Jew (who may hate his own ethnicity!) ?
February 21st, 2009 @ 7:10 am
Weren’t these two programs recorded?
February 22nd, 2009 @ 10:19 am
William,
Zionism is a political movement. One can be a gentile and be a zionist! Just because some people are both anti-semetic and anti-zionist does not make them one and the same. Anti-semetism is about ethnicity and has been around a lot longer than anti-zionism.
Just like in the 60’s or 70’s some one could be against the black panthers and still love black people, being against the socio-political movement did not mean you hated the ethnicity. You can hate their methods, their ideology but still love the people. And just like there are people who were both racist against black people and hated social movements like the black panther party or MLK’s movement etc there are people who hate zionists and jews and see them as the same thing. A lot of anti-zionists think of jews as zionists, even when they are not!
Its more complex than you make it out to be.
Grace and Peace
February 22nd, 2009 @ 8:52 pm
Mwiya,
I certainly understand your position and for the sake of the argument will concede your point, but, the reality is that “anti-Zionism” is the new codeword for anti-Semitism. No doubt Zionism started out as a political movement and still is, but if Zionism is allowing the Jews to be back in their land (and it is) then God is a Zionist.
I will point out again, that you can hate your own. There is a Jewish group (Neutri Karti or something like that) who want to see Israel eradicated even it means killing innocent Jews. Isn’t that Anti-Semitism as well? Can it not be both?
Regardless, I will concede the point to you as long as you realize that in this age and time, anti-Zionism is the new keyword/codeword for Anti-Semitism. Go to Anti-Zionist websites and you will see what I mean.
Blessings,
Daniel
February 24th, 2009 @ 7:11 am
Daniel,
I agree with you that for many when they say they are anti-zionist they are really anti-zionist. I agree that God is the best example of a Zionist there is, He loves Zion. But he hates what political zionism is. Jesus admonished the pharisee’s for making proselytes and turning them into even bigger sons of hell than they were. Zionism though political and not religious does the same thing. The children of Israel trust in their own strength and not in The Messiah. They elect leaders instead of realizing that God alone is their King! Zionism blinds, yes God has used it as an instrument to bring His people back to their land as he had promised, but we must remember that he used heathen kings to do the same 2400 years ago. Kings like Cyrus and Darius and Artexerxes who may have been idol worshipers! Does it mean God like the fact that the persians were full of idolatry? No. They like all things are his creations so he used them for his own purposes. Just like he used the Babylonians to chastize the nation, in fact it could be said that because the Torah pronounces a curse on as many as do not continue in it (in perfection I suppose) that the calamaties that the children of Israel have seen over the years have been from God himself! From the Roman expulsion to Hilter’s holocaust! A reminder that God is a covenant keeper!Does that mean that God liked what Hitler or The Babylonians did? No, he judged those very nations. And even greater judgment awaits the nations still.
I agree with you God can use any tool to fulfill his word. God is the only true Zionist that exists, he is calling Zion back to Himself!
You are right many who are anti-zionists are really anti-semites, I just wanted to show the difference in the meanings of the two words I guess.
God Bless bro
February 25th, 2009 @ 1:12 am
Wait a minute…do you understand what Zionism really is? You make many contradictory statements such as:
—
“He loves Zion. But he hates what political zionism is. ”
“God is the only true Zionist that exists”
—
So you are saying there are two definitions of Zionism? I don’t think so. Zionism simply put is the establishment of the land of Israel in what was known as Palestine. In fact, May 1948 the Balfour Declaration was a fulfillment of prophecy of Ezekiel 20:33-38, Ezekiel 22:17-22 and Ezekiel 36:22-24. (www.biblegateway.com to look up the passages if you wish) This is the regathering in unbelief (1948) not the Millennium Regathering in belief.
So now that we have established what Zionism is, and how it relates to the Holy Scriptures, I would say that anyone who is anti-Zionist, that is, one who defies the prophecies of God and wishes the Jews to not be in the land of Israel is probably and Anti-Semite. Anyone wishing to remove an entire ethnicity from their current state in which they more than proved their right to be there (the wars such as the 1948 war, 6 day way, Yom Kippur War) as well as the divine decree by God then they are an Anti-Semite in my book, whether they are Gentile or Jew.
Another problem is this; Just as the word “gay” has changed over the years, so has the word “zionism”. Anti-Zionism now reflects Anti-Semitism and vice versa.
You say: “You are right many who are anti-zionists are really anti-semites” — The problem I have with that statement is nearly all Anti-Zionists are Anti-Semites nowadays. This isn’t 1947 anymore.
Basically, Anti-Zionism encompasses moving an entire ethnicity from a land that they have fought and died over in many wars, including the intifada and the current wars and struggles. Removing an ethnicity from their state they legally possess BECAUSE of their ETHNICITY (and divinely possess, and prophetically possess) IS RACISM and Therefore Anti-Semitism. This is exactly what Anti-Zionism proposes to do nowadays. They are completely and grossly intertwined. You may be able to pull up a 0.1% chance of an Anti-Zionist who is a lover of Jews, but I’ll gladly show you 99.9% of Anti-Zionists who happen to be Anti-Semites. It is no coincidence.
Also, can you explain to me the difference between political and religious Zionism? Perhaps you are referring to someone like Rabbi Meir Kahane in which case God hates religious Zionism (to use your word) more because I don’t believe he wanted any Christians in Israel as well as Muslims.
I’m also baffled that you state “God is the only true Zionist that exists…” If that is true, then your whole argument if for naught for there is no such thing as Zionism in this world.
Blessings,
Daniel
February 25th, 2009 @ 1:42 am
I would also like to add that Anti-Zionism itself it mostly Anti-Semitic in my opinion, but, it does not make one completely an Anti-Semite. The point I am making is against Anti-Zionism, the idea. Jews can have Anti-Zionist idea’s and that itself in my opinion is Anti-Semitic although it does not necessarily mean that person is wholly Anti-Semitic. Now, I am speaking from a Gentile (I’m not Jewish) so if any Gentile is an anti-Zionist he himself most probably is wholly anti-Semitic, though (for what other reason does he have? Not Many).
I do believe there can be a double standard, mostly due to the fact that many Jews in the USA do not support Israel and the modern definition of Zionism is supporting Israel but if they are anti-Zionist they most likely are not wholly Anti-Semitic but I believe their Anti-Zionist idea’s are anti-Semitic.
I hope I cleared that up for you.
February 25th, 2009 @ 7:08 am
Daniel,
My comments are seemingly contradictory yes, but they actually aren’t contradictory. When I say God is the truest Zionist I say that because He loves Zion and is the one who brought back the people of Israel back to their land for His own name’s sake, not because of them. But when I say he hates political zionism which is what most jewish people understand it as, I mean he hates the fact that the people who created zionism and many of those who call themselves Zionists today do not have true faith in Him nor do they accept His Messiah as their own King (which they should be doing), he hates that. He also hates the fact that this ideology is one that increasingly has made the jewish people lean on their own flesh rather than call on the name of Messiah! That he hates. But still he has zeal for Zion and loves her! I know what Zionism is. And I am against it. I love Zion, I love what God’s plans for it are, but I don’t like the ideology. Just because God used it as a tool to bring the children of Israel back to the land of their forefathers does not make it good, neither does it make any one against it anti-semetic. Just like any one who hated the idolatry of the persian empire could not be branded anti-semetic simply because he hated the idolatry of the nation of the kings who allowed the children of Israel to rebuild Jerusalem. I like that God used something profane to do His will, but I hate the fact that it does not look to Messiah but to human will and power!
I know what the balfour agreement was, and I’ve read on those instrumental in its declaration such as Edward de Rothschild etc
There is a reason why Jacob’s trouble shall come, so that the children of Israel shall be broken and finally say Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD! Like I said, there is a difference between anti-semitism and anti-zionism. I recognize God’s providence in bringing back the people called by his name back to their land, I love them and hope for their salvation! Am I an anti-semite simply because I disagree with Zionism? Do I want Israel dismanted? No! Do I think the state itself is a fullfillment of scripture? No! I think the return of the people and their presence there is! The state is simply a man made apparatus which is the result of their unbelief and in that sense fullfills scripture yes! But they could be in ubelief and be under colonialism and it would still be a fulfillment of scripture, just like in Zerubabel’s time they returned and yet were still part of the Persian Empire. Its their presence and present unbelief in the land we should look at! Their works are simply manifestations of that unbelief!
February 25th, 2009 @ 9:29 am
Daniel,
I’ld like to point out again that when I say God is a zionist i mean it in the sense that he is zealous for the daughter of Zion and his plans for her, for Jerusalem which He wept for! In that sense and that sense only. Its a figure of speech
That said I have also pointed out that I’m against zionism, but I must add that all authority comes from God and as such he has allowed Israel to have its current ideology and type of government until His will for her is done and The LORD Jesus comes to reign on earth from the Jerusalem on earth her self. Like said its because of her unbelief that this sort of ideology exists. Zerrubabel was no Theodore Herzl, the first return 2400 yrs ago was more religious than this recent one was. This one was very political with people calling for a homeland for jewish people so as to put an end to the “wandering jew.” There is no problem in that for even if the people who were involved in this project were aware of it or not the word of God was fulfilled through their efforts. It is this difference in belief and understanding that I do not like in zionism. It is so focused on protecting the state of Israel and jewish homeland militarily and diplomatically rather than looking to the Most High and His Messiah! If this was done Israel would look much different, in fact the whole world would. But I know this will happen only in the LORD’s timing so I understand that the LORD has allowed this for the timebeing.
Am I against anti-zionist comments like those of the Iranian president? Of course he’s talking of mass murder! Do I disagree with Zionism’s ideologies? For theological reasons, practically for the unbelievers I see why it is the “rational” approach to survival in the midst of nations which have historically hated you. I guess the problem is that Israel wants to be like just any other nation when its heritage is greater! It could be so much more, but again only in Our Father’s timing according to His will!May his Kingdom come!
My issues with Zionism are wholly about the sad reality of the disregard for Messiah as well as how secularized it generally is.
I hope I cleared up my thoughts for u
March 3rd, 2009 @ 5:49 pm
You have said yourself that Zionism is secular and political right? Therefore Zionism has nothing with rejecting the Messiah. If you look up Zionism in the dictionary:
“A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel. ”
What problem do you have with that? You do realize that with no Zionism no time of Jacob’s trouble can occur, right (because Zionism has spurned the modern State of Israel)? I gave you texts in the Bible that show out the horror’s of the holocaust the state of Israel will be born in unbelief. You do realize that the Jews are the pupil or apple of God’s eye, right? You do realize that despite many horrible things in Israel, there are many Messianic churches and organizations, right?
1) Do you support Israel? Why or Why not?
2) If you do not support Israel on the basis of rejection of Messiah, isn’t that prejudice for every nation is against Messiah?
3) What about Genesis 12:3 ?(I will bless you that bless you etc…)
4) Are you a Dispensationalist or New Covenant Theologian? If the latter it is no wonder you do not support Israel. (No Insult intended)
Lastly, I highly reccomend reading the book Israeology by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum PHD and you can check his site at http://www.ariel.org
This is my last post, and I’m sorry for responding later, but you can check my blog to see why. You can believe it or not, but I have many friends in Israel, my favorite blog is from an orthodox Jew and I can tell you if you are not prepared: Anti-Zionism is a new keyword for Anti-Semitism. You would be surprised how many people hide behind Anti-Zionism instead of revealing their Anti-Semitism.
March 3rd, 2009 @ 6:34 pm
Well, Zionism is Anti-Messiah because as a political idea was not created by persons who acknowledge Yeshua as Messiah and Lord! Just in the same way that Islam or any anti-messiah religion or political idea’s .
Yes you are right that the existence of the state of Israel will most likely bring about Jacob’s trouble, but that is like saying let us do evil that good may come. Most religious jews and secular jews (non messianic jews to be specific) reject Yeshua as Messiah, I believe this is one reason God will bring about Jacob’s trouble. It will be his way of making them trust in Him alone and finally acknowledge Yeshua as messiah, it is only when they are so pressed that they will turn to Messiah and cry “blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.”
The LORD will then rescue Israel from her enemies!
I realize that the jews are the apple of God’s eyes. But he also hates hypocrites and unbelievers, they are beloved for the sake of the patriarch’s. It is for this reason why all Israel shall be saved, does their calling to be people of the Lord excuse them from their unbelief? No! If any thing it makes the unbelief even more. Hence God talks of how he had is arms wide open to the children of Israel all day long but they did not come to Him. He called to others and they came! How should we love the jewish people? By preaching the Gospel to them and showing loving kindness also.
Do I support the state of Israel? No, its not the Theocratic Kingdom, I see no reason why i should support their leaning on the flesh by donating to their cause.
Yes I do not support them because of their rejection of Messiah. Is that persecution against the nation of Messiah? Not in the least. To start with we as christians (jew and gentile) are a holy nation and royal priesthood unto God. The nation of Israel is messiah’s nation yes, but Israel is secular and Anti-Messiah. My support is for the people of Israel through love and preaching the Gospel not the secular state!
The blessing to those who bless Abraham counts for us christians too! We through Messiah are the seed of Abraham also, not only that but through Messiah the promise that all nations shall be blessed through Him shall be blessed has been fulfilled! By not supporting the secular state of Israel which despises her King and Lord and as such does not know the Father I am not cursing Israel! If any thing funding her unbelief is a true curse! Preaching the Gospel and helping the poor through our brethren there is what is good and that is blessed, that is blessing the physical descendants of Abraham.
I hold to most dispensationalist eschatology, as far as the new covenant theology goes…..I do not believe in replacement theology!
I disagree with dispensationalism in that I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are functional today! Also I believe there will not be a pre-trib rapture, but that the rapture shall occur during the great tribulation but before the Day of The LORD which I take to be the last week of Daniel’s 70 weeks. I take this position based on Rev 7:9-17. The Tribulation starts before the Day of the LORD, the unrivaled period of tribulation that Jesus mentions I believe is the time of wrath which is the last 3.5 yrs of the Day of the LORD (or the Day of Vengance mentioned in Isaiah 63) which has its climax with the battle of that great day of God when Jesus comes to Israel’s rescue.
Israel only has one King! I am a supporter of The Theocratic Kingdom of Messiah! I see God’s hand in his dealing with the nations using Zionism as a way to fulfill his Word. That however does not mean we are to support an anti-messiah political movement.
The callings and promises of God are irrevocable and I maintain that the truest way to help the jewish people is to show them Love through telling them of their own Messiah!
From a “non-religious” point of view I can see why Israel trusts in their weapons so much! Who wouldn’t if they were surrounded by enemy nations? but their calling is far higher! They are not just another Gentile nation! Their God and our God fought for them when they originally took the land 3500 years ago! God would not do less today if they trusted in Him! And He will, there shall be a remnant even as there is now, in Jacob’s trouble there shall be a remnant belonging to the Lord! The LORD shall fight on Israel’s behalf once more!
March 3rd, 2009 @ 6:40 pm
Btw, I do not believe the battle at Har Megiddo will be an attempt to destroy the state of Israel. Rather it seems to be an attempt to destroy the Jewish people. The Nation=the people not the state.
March 6th, 2009 @ 2:27 pm
To be frank with you, you are simply saying you do not support the Jews because of their rejection and you admitted this. Haven’t you read the epistles of Paul? Don’t you want to bless Israel and add more to the elect remnant? The reason you don’t support Israel is because it confronts the bad theology of “Replacement Theology” In my mind, your view is Anti-Semitic because you seem willing to let them be destroyed just because the majority rejected Yeshua. If that is the case, you should be an anti-Gentile as well. Your theology blinds you and misleads you. There is an elect remnant still in Israel saved by the grace of God, yet you don’t care about them because of the majority. I truly believe you harbor anti-Semitic views and mostly because of bad theology that you refuse to let go of. It’s truly ashame. Just read the Bible literally and stop spiritualizing everything and maybe you will get somewhere with regards to Israel. I recommend you to read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Israelology-Missing-Link-Systematic-Theology/dp/0914863053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1236367400&sr=8-1
Also listen to sermons by Dr. Kenny Rhodes president of Scofield Seminary if you have an open mind by going here:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=drkennyrhodes&keywordDesc=SCOFIELD+Grad+School+and+Seminary
Look for the ones regarding Israel and the Church. You fail to make a distinction between Israel and the Church, thus, you do not support Israel. Why not support them? That includes praying for them and missions to Israel.
Clearly, I am appalled and floored by some of your statements regarding Israel. Read the book, listen to the sermons and get back to me. If you have anything for me to read, I’d be more than happy too.
March 6th, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
Also, remember, the Abrahamic covenant is eternal. Remember who walked between the pieces of meat? Yes, the Lord.
The Abrahamic Covenant was the basis by which God was going to bring a new nation into being through Abraham — The Jewish Nation. This convent still exists, for it is unconditional and eternal. God still sustains His peculiar relation of love to them, a relation that will be demonstrated and vindicated in the final restoration. Your failure to realize this leads to your disregard of Israel.
Not only does your theology (Covenant Theology) resort to allegorization of unfulfilled prophecy, but it also ignores Jewish history. Let me guess, you probably believe you are a spiritual Jew as well? Yet you dislike the nation filled with “real Jews”.
Since your theology only allows for one people of God, it is again no wonder you do not support Israel. Don’t you see how that theology blinds you to the pupil of God’s eye?
Have you not read the words of Paul: “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” – Romans 11:1 KJV
In Greek the statement “God Forbid” is to the highest degree, basically he is saying let him be anathema if the Jews are cast off like New Covenant theologians say. Do you believe Paul was lying? If not you must admit there are two peoples of God: Israel and the Church. We do not become spiritual Jews, those who are in Christ.
I will pray for you that God will open your eyes to the beautiful love that He still has for his people despite their unbelief.
-daniel
March 6th, 2009 @ 7:05 pm
Daniel,
I prefer to stay out of this conversation, but just a quick note that from what Mwiya says, I don’t see him as being anti-semitic in any way as you suggest he is. Maybe I’m wrong here, but to me Zionism seems to be mainly a political agenda. If I was a Republican and disagreed with all Democratic views, does that mean I’m anti-American? I’m no expert on this, so maybe we should let Dr. Brown respond.
March 9th, 2009 @ 8:24 am
Here is an important new article from Melanie Phillips called Beware the new axis of evangelicals and Islamists
The byline is: Melanie Phillips says there is a dangerous new alliance between anti-Israel Christians and radical Muslim groups, often plotting in secret against their common enemy
March 10th, 2009 @ 12:14 am
Daniel,
I’m not a replacement theologian, I do not hold to that view of scripture. I made it clear that I do not support the secular state of Israel whilst I do support jewish people. I love them! I believe there is a jewish remant now, and there will be one that will survive Jacob’s trouble. Yes I believe Messiah will come back to reign from Jerusalem and he will crush his people’s enemies. I do not support the state of Israel because it does not recognize my God, my Lord and her own King. There is nothing wrong with this at all. I support giving to the poor in Israel, giving to the widows and to our brethren there. I support evangelism to the people there even more. But I do not and will not support the secular state of Israel. My reasons for this are simple, I love them and want to see them saved! Not remain in unbelief. Wars will come, this I know, desolation’s have been determined! But I want to be a minister of reconciliation not a supporter of continued unbelief.
This has nothing to do with me thinking that previous covenants have suddenly been annulled because I do not think so. Yes the glory of Moshe’s covenant is diminishing but God’s callings and promises are irrevocable. You have assumed that because Im not a christian zionist I must not hold to dispensationalist eschatology, which is not true. I believe the temple will be rebuilt, and then defiled. I believe Messiah will build the temple talked of in great detail in Ezekiel and that he is the returning Glory of the LORD. I believe all this, I believe that the covenant with Abraham was eternal and that infact it is through this promise that we gentiles become the seed of Abraham through Messiah, jew and gentile made one in Him. I believe that the promise to the physical descendants of Abraham still stands and can never be annulled as God shall keep it eternally. How then am I a replacement theologian?
Israel is a secular state, I support the children of Israel who are found far and wide, both in Israel and outside of it. Our preoccupation should be bringing these people into the kingdom. Not letting them remain hell bound!
You quote Paul in regards to whether God has cast off the jewish people. Why don’t you also quote him regarding the natural olive branch being removed so that the wild one can be grafted into his olive tree? Its clear that the context of what Paul was saying in the verse you quoted is that God has not utterly cast away the jewish people and he (Paul) is proof of this being a jewish believer, our own Dr Brown is another such an example. They are part of the remnant of God that has remained within the olive tree through the last 2000 years. Further More Paul goes on to explain how when the fullness of the Gentiles is in, God will restore Israel, the branch shall be placed in her place on the olive tree. And this will mean nothing more than the salvation of the world! The unbelief is for a time to allow God to fulfill his promise to Abraham that in Him all nations shall be blessed and as such we gentiles through the Jewish Messiah and by the words preached to us by his jewish apostle’s are brought into fellowship with the God of Israel. God will restore Israel and has reserved a remnant for Himself that will make it through the coming Great Tribulation, but guess what even they will believe Jesus is Messiah!
You say we do not become spiritual jews as christians, where as Paul who you have quoted seems to have thought differently. He said the following
“A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.”
In colossians he continues and says the following;
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”
It is clear that God has made gentiles co-heirs together with jews given only that they believe in Messiah who is the heir of all things. Through Him all become sons of God. The promise to the physical descendants stands firm, God will save them by his faithfulness but they too will be granted salvation in the same manner as we (Jewish and gentile believers of Yeshua), by faith in Christ. This is why they will bless him who comes in the Name of the LORD. The promise of the circumcision of the heart was to the Jewish people, gentiles have simply been grafted in through Messiah. This makes them part of God’s people through Messiah. I think it suffices that on some level christians are Jews inwardly.
Are there two peoples of God? Yes and no. Yes in that the promise is for every Jewish person alive today and every Jewish person that is to come, yes in that all Jews belong to God and through the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are his people. No in that since most deny Christ they deny the Father who sent Him also. No in that they remain under bondage when salvation has come. They however are still his people, but they are in unbelief.
You say I dislike the nation of Jews. No I don’t. I simply see things differently than you. I believe that the massive presence of the children of Israel in Eretz Yisra’el is a fulfillment of scripture, I understand why they resorted to creating a secular state. I understand that it is a result of unbelief and is as such created out of human evil, yet God by his providence has used it to fulfill his word and to allow a people of unbelief to ‘protect’ themselves because they are not calling upon Yeshua the very One who led them in the wilderness. I understand that my job is to get as many jewish people in Israel to seek the LORD for security and salvation rather than seek comfort in her allies. This is the same mistake the people of Israel made before Babylon invaded them! Messiah is what Israel needs and what the world needs also. I understand that God will allow Jacob’s trouble to come so that he breaks the children of Israel’s pride and blindness such that they call on Jesus and see him whom they pierced. I believe that God will allow this to happen so as to refine the people. I believe he has allowed this unbelief to continue so that his words are fulfilled and all that is written comes to pass.
Is it my lack of support for the secular state of Israel that makes me both anti-Semitic and a replacement theologian? Despite the fact that i neither hate Jewish people nor do I hold to covenant theology. It seems the prime difference between the two of us is simply this, I’m against zionism and you seem to support it. As far as dispensationalism goes, I classify myself as ‘dispensationalist” to a great extent I disagree with certain aspects such as spiritual gifts being available now etc, but for the most part I agree with it. And it seems so do you. So how is it that I go from being ‘dispensationalist’ as they call it to being a covenant theologian simply because I disagree with you on the issue of zionism. Which I see as political. Personally I do not support any nation in this world, the only human nation I could support and will support is the Theocratic Kingdom of Yeshua when he comes to reign, the children of Israel await their king let us reconcile them to him.
Being anti-zionist does not make one anti-israel. The secular state of Israel is not the nation, the nation is the people that live there! The nation is not the political ideology that many of its people hold. The nation of Israel is the people their, the children of Israel. Do I want to see Israel dismantled? No! I disagree with much of zionist ideas, that however does not make me one to say Israel should not exist. It exists because of unbelief. It is the best thing under bad conditions. Does this mean I will support it? No. Does this mean I will campaign against it and protest like many do? No. I simply want to get as many Israeli’s believing in Messiah as is possible at this present time considering eschatalogical barriers.
To bless Israel is to offer them He who gives all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies (promises which are first for the jew and then for the gentile), what good does giving military aid do if all you do is help the people’s unbelief?
March 10th, 2009 @ 12:24 am
Please read the following article by J.Parsons a messianic writer. I hold to his views on eschatology and pretty much most if not all theological issues, thus far I have found not a point at which I disagree with Him on. He’s jewish, He’s a believer of Messiah! He’s not a replacement theologian. If my post’s have been badly written (which I’m sure they are:) ) this will help outline where I stand.
I see Israel as the people, not necessarily the state. The people being ethnic Israelites who are spread across the 4 corners of the earth because of the diaspora. I see the state of Israel as something created out of unbelief yet serving the purposes of God. I do not however believe that this should make us all zionists for reasons I think I have made clear.
Please read the following article its pretty long, I will repeat once more. I agree with J.Parsons views, he outlines the many differing views on Israel and the church, eschatology etc but gives his own views. Take those to be my own as I endorse them (though my endorsement means little).
This is the link to the article:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html
March 10th, 2009 @ 12:31 am
Ewan,
I checked out the article you gave a link to. Thats a total surprise to me. Though I disagree with zionism, I do believe the positions Israel takes as a country are rational (I speak as a man.) if they are in unbelief they will attempt to protect themselves as any other nation does. As such to attack them for doing that is pretty unrealistic, what they need is faith in Messiah not more hatred against them or criticism by bishops etc. If we criticize Israel or zionism it should be on the premise that we are looking at anti-jesus ideologies and exposing them and preaching the gospel. Whilst at the same time allowing people to understand that in the same manner that every nation attempts to protect itself Israel does the same and so if we as Christians criticize them for that, we should criticize every nation in the world that does the same also.
March 13th, 2009 @ 12:43 am
God our Father has gathered Israel in unbelief, where his word then states He will do the mysterious work of bringing Israel to belief and sanctification. How can one not support the existence of Israel accordingly? Plus, the “weightier matters of the law” which Yeshua embraced included justice, mercy, faithfulness, etc. Certainly after the Holocaust what else could God have done for the people, but return them to the Land of the Book for His completions of what He has promised in the Prophets of Old?
March 13th, 2009 @ 12:44 am
What I just shared then dispells the notion that political Zionism was not included in the foreknown inclusive planning of God for last events of these end times.
March 25th, 2009 @ 8:07 am
Having prayed on this issue and thought on it more, I’ve come to see that the creation of a secular jewish state was the choice that the jewish people chose to make at the time by their free choice. I do not agree with it theologically because I believe Israel is a Kingdom. Yet it is still their choice and I as a believer in Jesus/ Yeshua, should stand by their choice understanding that it was made due to eschatalogical truths that are unavoidable and complex. They are called to believe in Yeshua yet at the same time, until God chooses to open their eyes in Jacob’s trouble they remain in unbelief. Thus it seems logical that their choice reflects the blindness that scripture itself said would happen. Because of this, I can ignore the eschatalogical barriers that God has set in place by His own will. Yet they are still free to choose Him! Yet at the same time God’s word shows that until he chooses to the nation will not embrace His Son. What a balancing act God is pulling off to His Glory.
Because of this, I’ve changed my views on the issue. I think its cool and fine to support the State of Israel in some ways. I think giving medical aid, giving monetary aid for the poor and oppressed, lobbying for the protection of both Messianic Jews and Arab Israelis in an effort to win them (Arab Israelis) over to Christ/Messiah through compassion and preaching etc. I also believe the most powerful aid we can give is to pray for them. The psalm says to pray for the peace of Israel, not to fight for it as believers using weapons. We can ask for God to send angels to fight on her behalf, we can ask Him to protect the people so that they may turn to Him etc. For me its the violence which puts me off because as John the baptist said to soldier…do not violence to any man. I understand why there is conflict, I understand the human reasoning behind using violence to protect one’s self. But I trust that God can do more violence in justice and Righteousness than any man. For a man’s anger does not lead to action which God regards as righteous.
Daniel thanks for opening up my eyes a lot more on the issue. I think I didn’t understand that well.