Because of this, I’ve changed my views on the issue. I think its cool and fine to support the State of Israel in some ways. I think giving medical aid, giving monetary aid for the poor and oppressed, lobbying for the protection of both Messianic Jews and Arab Israelis in an effort to win them (Arab Israelis) over to Christ/Messiah through compassion and preaching etc. I also believe the most powerful aid we can give is to pray for them. The psalm says to pray for the peace of Israel, not to fight for it as believers using weapons. We can ask for God to send angels to fight on her behalf, we can ask Him to protect the people so that they may turn to Him etc. For me its the violence which puts me off because as John the baptist said to soldier…do not violence to any man. I understand why there is conflict, I understand the human reasoning behind using violence to protect one’s self. But I trust that God can do more violence in justice and Righteousness than any man. For a man’s anger does not lead to action which God regards as righteous.

Daniel thanks for opening up my eyes a lot more on the issue. I think I didn’t understand that well.

I see Israel as the people, not necessarily the state. The people being ethnic Israelites who are spread across the 4 corners of the earth because of the diaspora. I see the state of Israel as something created out of unbelief yet serving the purposes of God. I do not however believe that this should make us all zionists for reasons I think I have made clear.

Please read the following article its pretty long, I will repeat once more. I agree with J.Parsons views, he outlines the many differing views on Israel and the church, eschatology etc but gives his own views. Take those to be my own as I endorse them (though my endorsement means little).

This is the link to the article:
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html

I’m not a replacement theologian, I do not hold to that view of scripture. I made it clear that I do not support the secular state of Israel whilst I do support jewish people. I love them! I believe there is a jewish remant now, and there will be one that will survive Jacob’s trouble. Yes I believe Messiah will come back to reign from Jerusalem and he will crush his people’s enemies. I do not support the state of Israel because it does not recognize my God, my Lord and her own King. There is nothing wrong with this at all. I support giving to the poor in Israel, giving to the widows and to our brethren there. I support evangelism to the people there even more. But I do not and will not support the secular state of Israel. My reasons for this are simple, I love them and want to see them saved! Not remain in unbelief. Wars will come, this I know, desolation’s have been determined! But I want to be a minister of reconciliation not a supporter of continued unbelief.

This has nothing to do with me thinking that previous covenants have suddenly been annulled because I do not think so. Yes the glory of Moshe’s covenant is diminishing but God’s callings and promises are irrevocable. You have assumed that because Im not a christian zionist I must not hold to dispensationalist eschatology, which is not true. I believe the temple will be rebuilt, and then defiled. I believe Messiah will build the temple talked of in great detail in Ezekiel and that he is the returning Glory of the LORD. I believe all this, I believe that the covenant with Abraham was eternal and that infact it is through this promise that we gentiles become the seed of Abraham through Messiah, jew and gentile made one in Him. I believe that the promise to the physical descendants of Abraham still stands and can never be annulled as God shall keep it eternally. How then am I a replacement theologian?

Israel is a secular state, I support the children of Israel who are found far and wide, both in Israel and outside of it. Our preoccupation should be bringing these people into the kingdom. Not letting them remain hell bound!

You quote Paul in regards to whether God has cast off the jewish people. Why don’t you also quote him regarding the natural olive branch being removed so that the wild one can be grafted into his olive tree? Its clear that the context of what Paul was saying in the verse you quoted is that God has not utterly cast away the jewish people and he (Paul) is proof of this being a jewish believer, our own Dr Brown is another such an example. They are part of the remnant of God that has remained within the olive tree through the last 2000 years. Further More Paul goes on to explain how when the fullness of the Gentiles is in, God will restore Israel, the branch shall be placed in her place on the olive tree. And this will mean nothing more than the salvation of the world! The unbelief is for a time to allow God to fulfill his promise to Abraham that in Him all nations shall be blessed and as such we gentiles through the Jewish Messiah and by the words preached to us by his jewish apostle’s are brought into fellowship with the God of Israel. God will restore Israel and has reserved a remnant for Himself that will make it through the coming Great Tribulation, but guess what even they will believe Jesus is Messiah!

You say we do not become spiritual jews as christians, where as Paul who you have quoted seems to have thought differently. He said the following

“A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.”

In colossians he continues and says the following;

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.”

It is clear that God has made gentiles co-heirs together with jews given only that they believe in Messiah who is the heir of all things. Through Him all become sons of God. The promise to the physical descendants stands firm, God will save them by his faithfulness but they too will be granted salvation in the same manner as we (Jewish and gentile believers of Yeshua), by faith in Christ. This is why they will bless him who comes in the Name of the LORD. The promise of the circumcision of the heart was to the Jewish people, gentiles have simply been grafted in through Messiah. This makes them part of God’s people through Messiah. I think it suffices that on some level christians are Jews inwardly.

Are there two peoples of God? Yes and no. Yes in that the promise is for every Jewish person alive today and every Jewish person that is to come, yes in that all Jews belong to God and through the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are his people. No in that since most deny Christ they deny the Father who sent Him also. No in that they remain under bondage when salvation has come. They however are still his people, but they are in unbelief.

You say I dislike the nation of Jews. No I don’t. I simply see things differently than you. I believe that the massive presence of the children of Israel in Eretz Yisra’el is a fulfillment of scripture, I understand why they resorted to creating a secular state. I understand that it is a result of unbelief and is as such created out of human evil, yet God by his providence has used it to fulfill his word and to allow a people of unbelief to ‘protect’ themselves because they are not calling upon Yeshua the very One who led them in the wilderness. I understand that my job is to get as many jewish people in Israel to seek the LORD for security and salvation rather than seek comfort in her allies. This is the same mistake the people of Israel made before Babylon invaded them! Messiah is what Israel needs and what the world needs also. I understand that God will allow Jacob’s trouble to come so that he breaks the children of Israel’s pride and blindness such that they call on Jesus and see him whom they pierced. I believe that God will allow this to happen so as to refine the people. I believe he has allowed this unbelief to continue so that his words are fulfilled and all that is written comes to pass.

Is it my lack of support for the secular state of Israel that makes me both anti-Semitic and a replacement theologian? Despite the fact that i neither hate Jewish people nor do I hold to covenant theology. It seems the prime difference between the two of us is simply this, I’m against zionism and you seem to support it. As far as dispensationalism goes, I classify myself as ‘dispensationalist” to a great extent I disagree with certain aspects such as spiritual gifts being available now etc, but for the most part I agree with it. And it seems so do you. So how is it that I go from being ‘dispensationalist’ as they call it to being a covenant theologian simply because I disagree with you on the issue of zionism. Which I see as political. Personally I do not support any nation in this world, the only human nation I could support and will support is the Theocratic Kingdom of Yeshua when he comes to reign, the children of Israel await their king let us reconcile them to him.

Being anti-zionist does not make one anti-israel. The secular state of Israel is not the nation, the nation is the people that live there! The nation is not the political ideology that many of its people hold. The nation of Israel is the people their, the children of Israel. Do I want to see Israel dismantled? No! I disagree with much of zionist ideas, that however does not make me one to say Israel should not exist. It exists because of unbelief. It is the best thing under bad conditions. Does this mean I will support it? No. Does this mean I will campaign against it and protest like many do? No. I simply want to get as many Israeli’s believing in Messiah as is possible at this present time considering eschatalogical barriers.

To bless Israel is to offer them He who gives all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies (promises which are first for the jew and then for the gentile), what good does giving military aid do if all you do is help the people’s unbelief?

The byline is: Melanie Phillips says there is a dangerous new alliance between anti-Israel Christians and radical Muslim groups, often plotting in secret against their common enemy

The Abrahamic Covenant was the basis by which God was going to bring a new nation into being through Abraham — The Jewish Nation. This convent still exists, for it is unconditional and eternal. God still sustains His peculiar relation of love to them, a relation that will be demonstrated and vindicated in the final restoration. Your failure to realize this leads to your disregard of Israel.

Not only does your theology (Covenant Theology) resort to allegorization of unfulfilled prophecy, but it also ignores Jewish history. Let me guess, you probably believe you are a spiritual Jew as well? Yet you dislike the nation filled with “real Jews”.

Since your theology only allows for one people of God, it is again no wonder you do not support Israel. Don’t you see how that theology blinds you to the pupil of God’s eye?

Have you not read the words of Paul: “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.” – Romans 11:1 KJV

In Greek the statement “God Forbid” is to the highest degree, basically he is saying let him be anathema if the Jews are cast off like New Covenant theologians say. Do you believe Paul was lying? If not you must admit there are two peoples of God: Israel and the Church. We do not become spiritual Jews, those who are in Christ.

I will pray for you that God will open your eyes to the beautiful love that He still has for his people despite their unbelief.

-daniel

http://www.amazon.com/Israelology-Missing-Link-Systematic-Theology/dp/0914863053/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1236367400&sr=8-1

Also listen to sermons by Dr. Kenny Rhodes president of Scofield Seminary if you have an open mind by going here:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SourceOnly=true&currSection=sermonssource&keyword=drkennyrhodes&keywordDesc=SCOFIELD+Grad+School+and+Seminary

Look for the ones regarding Israel and the Church. You fail to make a distinction between Israel and the Church, thus, you do not support Israel. Why not support them? That includes praying for them and missions to Israel.

Clearly, I am appalled and floored by some of your statements regarding Israel. Read the book, listen to the sermons and get back to me. If you have anything for me to read, I’d be more than happy too.