March 19, 2009
March 19, 2009 | 26 Comments
Hour One: Once Saved Always Saved?
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Hour Two: Where Have All the Demons Gone?
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26 Responses to “March 19, 2009”
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March 19th, 2009 @ 3:17 pm
It is apparent that man leans on the once saved always saved for many reasons one of them being mans greatest fear of being Rejected. It is hard for a man to follow a God that could possibly reject them and then punish them. This is problem of today thing, but a problem that occurred in the beginning of time. Let us look in the book of Genesis concerning Cain and able.
Genesis 4:2
Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.
3 In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD.
4 But Abel brought fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.
The LORD looked with favor on Abel and his offering,
5 but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast.
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
God’s dealings with sin have Not changed. This is the answer.
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door;
it desires to have you,
but you Must Master it.”
This is why the apostle Paul enslaves his flesh. He proclaims mastery over his flesh so he too will be accepted by God.
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be Disqualified for the prize.
March 19th, 2009 @ 3:20 pm
Correction: This is not only problem of today, but a problem that occurred in the beginning of time.
March 19th, 2009 @ 4:41 pm
The once saved always saved approach is a dangerous doctrine because people get the wrong impression. Do you really think God gives people a sinfree card for people to run amok in the name of the Lord . People really need to be taught the meaning of true repentance . Well until people are taught the truth and not opinion they will never have a real relationship with Christ. I believe wife beaters and cheaters tell their wives theyre sorry and it won’t happen again but hasn’t repented of it because it continues to occur. wake up people their is a standard that we live by God does santify us to be different than the sin practicing world.
March 19th, 2009 @ 5:03 pm
The demons haven’t gone anywhere we just have medical names for them like multiple personality, schizerphrenia, transvestite, etc. and we have too many spineless ministers who won’t inform the people about them because they might be labeled a fanatic or “Ole Fire and Brimestone Preacher”. Let’s remember apostles also casted out demons after Jesus ascended so they never left alot of us just chose to take the worlds view you know, there is a scientific explanation for everything . We who are spiritual should know better and believe better.
March 20th, 2009 @ 12:22 am
I have gone back and forth with this since college. I remember the first time I was confronted with predestination and how difficult this originally was for me to accept. Then through persuasion by others pointing out certain Scriptures, I settled with “once saved always saved” for years. As the years continued, I noticed a larger sense of me taking sin for granted in my life because I felt if I was saved no matter what that I didn’t have to take sin so seriously, which then caused me to have the attitude that since God was in control of everything and my salvation was sealed, that I didn’t really need to live with a sense of urgency of a dying and lost world that needed Christ. How faulty this thinking was! I’ve now gone back to feeling that if I’m not using the gifts God has given me with a sense of urgency, then I’m no better than the man in the parable that buried his talent and gained no interest for his master. What I think it boils down to is that although Scripture teaches that even though those in Christ were predestined before they were even born, this simply proves that God is all-knowing, past, present, and future (it has nothing to do with how we should view and live out our personal lives). Jesus says that those who hear his voice obey him and they will never be snatched from His hand. But the key here is that obeying him is not a one-time decision…it is a continual decision throughout our lives. Teaching a once saved always saved doctrine is very dangerous. Although God already knows past, present, and future the salvation of His people, we shouldn’t dwell on this and think we can already know our future destiny simply because we are saved by “faith”. We are justified by our faith in Christ, but don’t forget, faith without works is dead.
March 20th, 2009 @ 8:39 am
I think the scriptures teach a once saved always saved doctrine, that is the elect of God who are in His hands can not be snatched from Him. I also believe that a person will not necessarily be complacent with sin if he knows this. Rather the believer will cast off all things that entangle, and make his body his slave. He will pursue God and will thirst for Him. I think there is nothing wrong with the T.U.L.I.P doctrine, I think its pretty clear from scripture.
Revelation 17:14 says
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
Those who are His will persevere, that is why John the writer of Revelation calls the suffering for the kingdom the patient endurance.
The Just shall live by Faith, and faith works through Love. Those who Love Messiah abide in Him and He in them. They do His commandments and the Father Loves them as He Loves Christ whom he gave His Commandments.
That’s my take on it any ways. I think God is totally Sovereign over all things yet gives us the freedom to make our own decisions, those whom he indwells He does illuminate and guide though, He leads them and His word is a light to their feet. We all have sinned, but we forget the past and look to the future and endure hardship for His Name’s sake. (Btw I do hold to parts of reformed theology like T.U.L.I.P. but I do not hold to covenant theology or ammillenialism, preterism or any eschatology other than the pre-millennial type).
March 20th, 2009 @ 11:18 am
I will say this, whenever I feel convicted as a result of my sin, the Spirit inside me is completely grieved, but I don’t feel like I’m going to lose my salvation because I know the Savior, and he is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me when I confess my sins to him (1 John 1:9). What tears up my heart are those infrequent times I deliberately do something I know is wrong while Jesus is telling me “if you love me you will keep my commandments”, yet I tell myself “yes, this is totally wrong, but you are sealed and God will forgive you.” After the fact that I have deliberately sinned, I think to myself, how could I have done such a thing! Don’t misunderstand that I live in sin this way, but there have certainly been such times of failure, to my regret. I just think that many times, teaching “once saved always saved” is especially dangerous for people who do not walk closely with the Lord as they live a lie that continual sin is permissable and have an improper fear of the Lord. I try to keep the mindset that Jesus says if we remain in Him, he will remain in us, and I try not to ever let myself get comfortable doing things apart from him, primarily because without him, I am sure to fail every time. I’d love to hear Dr. Brown’s well thought out views on this topic.
March 20th, 2009 @ 3:02 pm
1) what is the difference, if any, between the saved doctrine and having eternal security?
2) what the scriptures ward about those believers who practice certain pattern sin and “will not inherit the Kingdom of God?”, is that an eternal truth, or is something temporary and excluded meant by these qualifying statements of non-inheritance?
3) if God “forwknew” those that are his, and the other failing at obedience believers are simply deceived about their own inclusion, what should be their course of action in the light of eternal grace and truth?
March 20th, 2009 @ 3:04 pm
2) should read warn, not ward
3) should read foreknew not forwknew.
March 20th, 2009 @ 3:40 pm
As for fallen angels, now on earth, underfoot, or in its atmospheric certain levels of heaven as apparent scriptural demons, please note the characterizations in scriptures of such as “deceiving spirits,” and the character of the related Satan Spirit being an accuser, liar, deceiver, murderer, and usurper. In Job the enemy accuser is pictured before the throne of God asking permission to harass Job, which he receives. I think of 9-11 and the words of those claiming its action, and about those of Islam making an assignment of the USA being “the great Satan,” and the absolute relativism of such words as acceptable or not as belived holding so among those of such persuasion. I think too of the smoke coming up from a judged Babylon in the Revelation of John, and allusions to towers, this occurring in an hour, etc.
It becomes clear then, that having one’s lamps trimmed, in waiting on the Lord to return, standing in truth and grace, and as to coming defeat per Daniel’s last chapter of this present Gentile powers controlling world system: to walk in the Father, as the Messiah so claimed. requires an abiding position founded and experienced only in the risen Messiah, through the Holy Spirit.
To begin to sort out “what happened to demons” from the relativism and politically correct positioning of this or that world view highlighted as part of our world by media news or information reporting requires hearing and obeying with new eyes and ears than what is constantly being so often commented on. What is in view and represents world action, values, and conflict by the media of globalization requires believers in Jesus to hear from the Father’s throne so to speak to deal with the sphere’s of influence of demons.
Often when believers from the so-called developed nations go into undeveloped parts of Asia, India, or other locations and pray for healings, or do warfare prayer and battle: it is very clear that the power of the HS is active, and that the enemies of that Spirit are also active, discernable, and can be confronted in real time, space, and place. It is within the so-called developed nations that the discernment and declaration of good and evil becomes more confused, less clear, upheld as to a media mix of the values involved, and seems to be less addressable by knowing for certain standing connections of godly empowerment. It seems then that the way to pursue the Kingdom and related standing for it and ways of advancing its influence and reality become dissipated in a sense by all the contradictions of the values media lauds.
So, it is curious at the least, and clouded by this world’s view as to world system values deception and a believer’s discernment being more challenging at best, to live in the so-called developed world and its world system. Babylon, or confusion, is underwritten by the self centered pursuits and choices of the values of the developed world. This seems to mean then that the facilitation and means for deception is well entrenched in the world system and its successful representatives.
March 20th, 2009 @ 6:36 pm
What happened to demons? Psychology happened and people started calling demoniacs, schizophrenics. There is massive demonic oppresion in todays world. Consider the amount of people in the U.S. on various psychotropic drugs or some form of depression or mental dispair? Consider the craziness of the world around us. Yes human beings are evil, and depraved and do evil by their own choice. But still, the craziness in the world seems to be demonically inspired. Even the types of warfare the peoples engage in, nuclear weapons that can totally incenerate others. The fact that people can even conceive in their minds the construction of weapons of this sort shows the fact that demons are still around. The world is simply in darkness, our worshiping them as their own gods. Talk of the religions of the world.
Michael, I agree with you. The doctrine is one which must be taught in a proper way that will not lead to apathy on the part of a believer.
March 20th, 2009 @ 11:13 pm
If once shaved always shaved is true then why do I still need to buy razors?
Seriously though, all the scriptures speaking of predestination also include the thought of holiness, and being conformed to the image of Christ in this present time; in other words God did not choose anyone to be saved without choosing for them to be holy. “he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame”… whatever you believe, ‘Once saved’ or otherwise, scripture never has taught a salvation without holiness, or a new birth without the holiness of God’s law written on the heart and neither have Calvanistic men of God from Luther to Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards to Spurgeon, et al.
March 21st, 2009 @ 12:58 am
Joshua,
You are exactly right! People have taught the perseverance of the saints in holiness, but salvation without holiness of any kind.
March 21st, 2009 @ 10:41 am
I think it was Martin Luther who made the following statement during the later part of his life,
“If sanctification by faith does not proceed after justification by faith in a person’s life then the person is not justified at all” (paraphrased it a little)
Dr Brown
In regards to your last statement,where does the example of Cornelius fit in?His good works and prayers played an important part in God sending Peter to them.
March 21st, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
The only time I feel perfectly fine saying “once saved always saved” is from the perspective of God (since he knows past, present, and future), but not from our perspective, even though as I continue to live, my salvation never feels threatened as I continue to walk in His ways. God is all-knowing, he is the beginning and the end. He knows when Satan will be defeated, and he knew exactly when Yeshua would come, die, and when he is coming back, but apart from signs He gives, we don’t have the slightest clue when things will happen. If we walk in His ways, these are signs He lives in us and that we belong to Him. This may be way off topic, but here’s an incredible documentary that somene graciously uploaded about actual evidence we have on the Star of Bethlehem. It goes along with what I was saying about signs God gives us. This is further evidence on the truth of God’s Word and I hope it encourages you all:
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGsnaJeQFCw&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPtseSZdIDo&feature=related
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEclV5tOQp4&feature=related
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKCU_h3-o6M&feature=related
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoBdsIv08iU&feature=related
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeEPZvAIwwY&feature=related
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd1Lq1PXrNE&feature=related
March 23rd, 2009 @ 7:48 am
If you believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved” doctrine and you continue in sin, thinking that you make it past the gates of Heaven, I would question your love for God or the world. If you love God you will keep his commandments. 1 John 3:6-9 says: 6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
So according to the Bible, if you sin, you are of the devil. If you are a Christian in willful sin, you need to repent on your face before God and quit sinning. If you are a Christian and love God, you do not have to sin. Thank you Dr. Brown for reading my email and God bless you and your many ministries!
March 23rd, 2009 @ 5:21 pm
Dr Brown,
I appreciate your taking the time to discuss such an important subject matter as presented. The following is an opening statement that I presented in an online debate regarding this topic.
The crux of this debate stands on the ground that once a person comes to the saving knowledge of Christ, he is now encouraged and has been privileged and empowered, by the grace of God, to live a life of righteousness and holiness unto the Lord. Paul, the Apostle, was specific in stating that the grace of God “teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lust, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age” (Titus 2:11-12). Elsewhere, he asks the question “Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” (Romans 6:1-2). So we see that it is God’s intention for everyone of His children to live a life that is pleasing to Him in all holiness and righteousness.
We then come to the place of discovering if the salvation that has been granted to believers is a one and for lifetime transaction consummated when a person makes a genuine confession of faith to the Lord Jesus Christ – without God taking into account any of the future actions or decisions that the individual would make. The whole idea of this debate will rest upon on the understanding that one side believes that, once saved, a persons actions or lifestyle – no matter how sinful – will not impact their eternal destiny. The other side understands that obedience (holy living) is not optional in the Christian life, but is a requirement in order to see God.
Those of us who have embraced the biblical understanding of a conditional salvation understand that sin, and its consequences, are not viewed differently by God in relation to an unsaved person. Paul declared that a Christian has died to sin and no longer lives a lifestlyle in accordance to it. The Scriptures warn us against being deceived into thinking that a Christian can live a lifestyle of sin and not suffer eternal consequences. Anyone living a lifestyle of unrepentant sin, regardless of what they call themselves – or the experience they may have had at a tent meeting or alter call – will suffer the wrath of God.
“Little children, let no one DECEIVE you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. He who sins is of the devil…” (1 John 3:7-8).
“For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. LET NO ONE DECIEVE YOU WITH EMPTY WORDS, for because of these things the WRATH OF GOD comes upon the sons of disobedience. THEREFORE DO NOT BE PARTAKERS WITH THEM” (Ephesians 5:5-7).
“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers… nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor revilers… will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).
“DO NOT BE DECEIVED, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap” (Galatians 6:7).
It is here that we must come to the realization that if anyone declares that if a “Christian” lives a lifestyle of sin, he will simply loose some rewards, but still inherit eternal life, is sending a message which is contrary to the teaching of Scripture. This is exactly what we have been warned against, and to promote an unconditional eternal salvation with this in mind is clear deception.
It is very biblical, from the Garden of Eden to this present day, that God’s people are expected to follow Him as Lord as conditions to eternal life. Any person, in his freedom of choosing, who refuses to continue in the faith will suffer a fearful expectation of judgment in doing so. It is an injustice to the Scripture to ignore and exclude the warnings which are repeatedly given throughout the scope. This covenant of grace does not pardon us from these consequences if we choose to continue to live contrary to the faith once delivered. Please note the following warning:
“Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called ‘today,’ lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end” (Hebrews 3:12-14).
We have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to live a life of godliness. We can embrace the promises that have been given to us which make up for salvation. He knows us by name, and He is able to save us completely. Let us continue to draw near to Him and embrace the gospel that not only declares Jesus as our s
Savior, but we must herald the gospel message that He also is our Lord. We follow Him because we love Him; we worship Him because He is worthy of it; and we embrace Him because He has forgiven us of our sins.
The salvation advocated in the Scriptures demonstrate repentance, an active present faith, and obedience, as conditioning factors to the promise of eternal life. Though the bible does not use the term “eternal security” we can see that it gives promises that imply this language. In the places of which Scripture affirms this promise (ie. John 10, Hebrews 7) we find that an ongoing, present faith is also revealed.
My contention arises with anyone who would attempt to introduce a doctrine of soteriology which ignores present faith and obedience as conditioning factors, when the bible does not do so. This is contrary to the doctrines of grace and is an offence to the cross of Christ. For anyone to advocate that a person can live in willful, ongoing sin and still inherit eternal life puts the cross of Christ to an open shame. How can someone who is dead to sin, through the cross of Christ, continue to live in it? May it never be!
Shalom
March 23rd, 2009 @ 8:41 pm
Concerning the Christan man who stated “he was delivered from Pornography through a Christian commanding it to depart” I believe that many Christians today do have many types of demonic possession.
I also believe the Christians of the bible could not be possessed. The multitude of professing Christians today are not born again or have turned away from the truth. The bible teaches that it is better to have never known the truth than it is to live it and walk away from it.
March 23rd, 2009 @ 10:39 pm
I really wish I could have been able to call in this program! Arggh.
It is ironic that many reformed individuals hold to an unconditional election for the church, but a conditional election for Israel; whereas [many] arminians hold to a conditional election for the church, and an unconditional election for Israel.
I hold to the view that the election of both Israel and the church is unconditional. The “Once Saved, Always Saved” question is a debate that is worded to ask the question how much sin we can get away with. The answer that the apostles would have given to that sort of inquiry would have been nothing but a stern warning. But the doctrine of election is clearly taught in scripture, and is always described as being unconditional and unmerited.
March 24th, 2009 @ 9:42 am
I believe “Elect” has a different connotation than loosely throwing Israel in that category. God has an everlasting covenant with Israel, but this doesn’t mean that every Israeli is “Elect” (only those that place their trust in Yeshua as Lord and Savior). The Elect refers to the Church comprised of both Jewish and Gentile believers in Christ. You cannot say that “once saved always saved” applies to Israel (I personally don’t use that doctrine for anyone). However, at the end, all Israel WILL be saved for God’s covenant with them to stand (Zechariah 12). Concerning election, here is a verse that needs emphasizing, 2 Peter 1:10 -”Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall.” We are instructed to make our election sure. How about that for people who hold to a loose view of “once saved always saved”.
March 24th, 2009 @ 11:39 pm
Michael: Paul outlines the parallels that exist between the Church’s election and Israel’s election in Romans.
March 24th, 2009 @ 11:52 pm
Joshua: No Calvinist believes that eternal security is an excuse to sin.
March 25th, 2009 @ 8:12 am
Calvinists believe that those who have been elected by God will persevere, that is they will strive to be more like Christ by walking in Holiness. They are chosen to be conformed to the image of Christ. Chosen for good works. In fact scripture often says to test one’s self to see if you are reprobate etc (what I understand to be a false convert).
March 30th, 2009 @ 12:17 pm
So, is Christian salvation then theologically the same as the Moslem notion of eternal inclusion–as seems based soley and only on how it pans out in the end as being only God’s business–where their notion of God having the sole right to select or elect and judge determines the final outcome, and, as such, without any way of guaranteeing or ensuring a notion of salvation. What are the bases of any promised differences between Yeshua’s finished work and an Islamic uncertainty over eternity? How does one ensure eternal security, where only a God’s everchanging regard of outstanding sin or outstanding saved sinner contradict?
April 2nd, 2009 @ 12:43 am
Rob S,
I’ve met quite a few who do.
April 3rd, 2009 @ 1:01 am
Brian R., Thank you for your thoughtful and contemplative comments on the matter; that there are questions which can be answered seems to be your considerate focus.