9 Responses to “May 26, 2009”

1. Joshua Harris
   May 27th, 2009 @ 6:09 pm

   Good show.    

   I am cautioned about naming names, even to people I have good church relationships with, because I don’t want to make someone dependent on me.  I would rather put them in the place of being responsible to discern for themselves.  If the issue of false prophets comes up, I want to win people to the scriptures, to the person of Christ himself, and union with Him.  The issue of false prophets is the issue of deception; and if I can get someone won to the Word of God, to the Son of God and closer to Him, they have the antidote to that deception.  The problem with many Christians is they haven’t spent the time in the Word, or with the living Word Himself to have developed the discernment that is inherent in such a relationship with Christ and his word.

2. Bill Fawcett
   May 27th, 2009 @ 10:02 pm

   It is easy to make the internet a punching bag. Yes Paul named names but that was before the internet.  What’s that supposed  to mean? Do you suppose that he might have used it if he could? Of course.

   While there is much that must be sifted through, I am very thankful for the ability to research and gain useful information about various movements. In the 70′s I was part of a church that was secretly tithing to Bob Mumford. And that was just the tip of the pyramid.  By secretly I mean the leadership knew what it was doing – being involved the in the multi-level scheme called “discipleship,” but the sheep knew little or nothing. If that happened today, I would have been able to Google Mumford + Prince +  Basham + Simpson and found out a whole lot.

   So I think on the whole, its a good thing.

   ====

   Speaking of “prophets” who warn of impending events, I think (without naming names) that many of the dire warnings have been cataloged on elijahllist.com

   I have to wonder what is the benefit?  Most of them are laughably off-target, many are given after-the-fact but in a manner which makes  them look like they were predictive,  and some are just downright outrageous. Most try to bring glory to the speaker (prophet/profit) or get side tracked with warring angels and “winds of change.”

   If the best of the so-called prophetic movement say that they are right only 65% of the time, why listen to them?  Who is inspiring them 35% of the time?  In reference to specific “prophetic” words about impending events can you even take seriously any words with this track record? Would you fly a plane cross-country that only had a 65% change of arriving safely?

   The bottom line is we didn’t need to be warned about the current recession. Why have Christians been over-extending their credit lines, living beyond their means, lusting after bigger houses, bigger TVs and bigger cars in the first place. Is that the “crucified life?” Let’s not worry about the “events,”  let’s get delievered from worldly lusts and God will take care of us.  He will even take care of me if I haven’t stockpiled food in my basement. Consider the lillies.

   I am far less interested in a “prophet” who can accurately predict events and much more interested in a prophet who can speak plainly about right living. And those are not easy to find. Leonard Ravenhill, of course, comes to mind.

   =====

   I got an email from a prophetic outfit somewhere near Charlotte for a webinar that will be discussing “1. Today’s turmoil in the context of God’s promised safety and blessing and 2. Wise Choices for today.”

   So here’s the question – will this be a prophetic warning for the events to come or a pitch for a retirement community?

   Will we ever learn?

   -Bill

3. Jabez H.
   May 28th, 2009 @ 11:48 am

   On Prophets.  It is far more vital to understand the “Prophets of Old,” (Acts 3:21), and their continuing significance as to foretelling, than any so-called post modern soul with such a claimed vision.  Jesus and Paul clarified the way the Holy Spirit works indeed (John 14-16; Romans 8; I Cor 13, etc.)–which applies to prophets.  So, many Seminarians today claim that to be a Prophet in context is to be a herald of the moral and heart reference of scripture in the context of the Prophets present day realities existing when such utterances were/are made.  Thus these teachers of historical and literary context for Prophets often define Prophets as forthtellers, not foretellers.  This could then apply to today’s heralded voices of concern.

   The Bible scholars talking about Prophets,  as informed teachers, in a real sense were turned off by the correlations made between current events and past foretelling by scripture enough to highlight a definition that is based in scriptural references on forthtelling of spiritual or moral condition as its primary intention.  This in a real sense explains away any such ministry today, or in the past, being important as to Prophetic futures (showing what is to come), for warnings, and for preparations.

   We cannot hold the challenge of Prophets and prophecy at arms length intellectually, where it may have an important reach into our own hearts and minds, and resulting actions.  Prophecy is a unique part of the revelation of God, in that He alone can faithfully predict, and faithfully frame that which needs to be heard and heeded.  Matthew’s way of citing prohetic fulfillment indeed takes to task a literal forthtelling understanding of the phenomena of saying the words of the Lord as to what will be, and must come to pass.  God honors the word of the Prophets, and it made more clearly in Jesus, where those words apply to Him.

   He most certainly has honored the words spoken about Israel since the regathering there of the Jewish state.  He has many other words recorded in regard to what happens after this present gathering and reformation of the Nation. 

   What would be the themes which would help believers and nonbelievers alike hear and heed the Word of God for their own lives and outlooks on life?  Why do we need this ministry which Jesus said He would send today?  How will the Prophets of Old be relevant to present day Prophets?  When and where are the Prophets to be regarded, judged, and heared? 

4. Jabez H.
   May 28th, 2009 @ 11:57 am

   Heared by the way is intentional over heard.

5. Bill Fawcett
   May 28th, 2009 @ 12:25 pm

   Jabez,

   Perhaps I should pray for interpetation. The post sounded great but I didn’t understand a word you just sayed.

   -Bill

6. AJ
   May 29th, 2009 @ 1:08 pm

   Dr. Brown,
   Great show. The information on false prophets was very beneficial.

7. Gina Hendrixson
   May 29th, 2009 @ 9:26 pm

   Bill,
   I agree with what you say. I was a  lukewarm Christian living the American Way until March 14, 2009 when the Lord called me to a 40 day fast. Not only was I not to eat food but I was to devote all of my spare time to reading and studying God’s word, praying and seeking Him.
   Before this fast I had become addicted to TV – not sitcoms or shows like that -  but news. I watched C-SPAN or FoxNews Channel every evening after work until bedtime. I was a political junkie.
   But, one day God said “Come away with me.” I believe the largest failure of the church is that we don’t have a relationship with the Lord. We talk about having one and tell new converts they need to have one and then we don’t have one. This is the reason we believe every “prophet” that opens his/her mouth. Since we don’t know God well enough to hear His voice, we run after people who claim to hear His voice.
   It is my strong desire to know Him and by having that personal relationship, I will know His voice. Therefore, I will not seek out a “prophet” but I will seek the Lord, Himself and He will tell me what I am to do.

   I have cnacelled my cable TV and I don’t remember the last time I turned my TV on. After the 40 day fast, I ate for eight days and the Lord called me to a 21 day fast. That fast ended eight days ago and I know the Lord will call me to another when His time is right.

   His desire is for us to know Him and, for the most part, we have failed in that area. During these two fasts, He has given me much joy and I have felt much sorrow for the people and things I have loved more than I loved Him. He is showing me the truth of Jeremiah 17:9.
   Gina

8. Jabez H.
   June 4th, 2009 @ 3:02 pm

   Bill, 
   Prophets have a Biblical context prior to holding any current events reference or relative importance for the present day ministry of Jesus Christ.  Jesus fulfilled prophecy in his first coming, and will fulfill more in his return.  One has to take the subject and how it applies to the here and now as well as the completion of end times events: 1) there are OT prophecies still holding and yet to be fulfilled in regard to all the redemptive and judgment intentions of scripture (Acts 3:21 simplifies this concept where Peter so informs the Jewish nation about Jesus and future and first visitation fulfillments), 2) when The Late Great Planet Earth was popular bestselling reading in the 1970s many Evangelicals distanced themselves from such a present day current events related interpretation of scripture, holding instead that not enough scholarship was applied to the contexts of the quoted Prophets by its author, 3) this happened coincidentally with the Jesus Movement and Charismatic renewal happening for over a decade, where, Christian TV too exhibited declarations of spiritual gifts happening in the here and now in the body of Christ, 4) the conservative scholars then distanced themselves from such contemporary understandings and declarations of Holy Spirit actions in present day interpretations of events, body life, ministries, etc.–by stating that the contextual historical interpretation of the prophets of old was the correct one, largely, it seemed because of the popularity of the book mentioned, and the capturing of the attention of new believers by the movements mentioned, 5)if you go to an Evangelical Seminary today, they attempt to keep the subject safely handled by isolating an approach to scriptural interpretation as to Acts of the Holy Spirit which place such acts regarding Prophets and Prophecy at an intellectual arm’s length from the here and now (I suspect because then their own seats of expertise were being usurped as the place to go for the most accurate interpretation of scripture), 6) this led to a tension between the obvious excesses of the Charismatic renewal movement, as accompanying the reality of the Holy Spirit being involved and active in the spontaneous movements and conversions of the late 1960s and early 1970s, 7) by holding the subject of prophecy at an intellectual arms length as to establishing it in personal and present experience, and labeling OT interpretation with the notion of forthtelling as viable over foretelling not being in control, as experts, of the seats of Biblical interpretation schooling were in a sense handled.

   The late messianic and present day Israel prophecy interpreter, who called himself a journalist, rather than a prophet judging the fulfillments of OT prophecy in our time (which his journalism was really about), Zola Levitt, had a lover’s quarrel with Dallas Theological Seminary, and Moody Bible Instituteas exemplary of estabished Evangelical schools which were not teaching on the active subject of prophetic actions, and fulfillments while addressing the challenges before the whole wide world over the current events interpretations of Biblical and Ecclesia based NT prophecy.   He constantly noted that such schools had no courses which taught Biblical or NT Prophecy as a living example of the present day involvement of God with our planet and those of the faith.

   My personal view is that this is perhaps the most needed ministry for our times for the Body of the Messiah, and as is set in scripture as to checks and balances on its applications within the Body.  We have the amazing book which outlines the future of Israel by Asher Intrater, a Messianic Bible teacher of Charismatic persuasion, and an American and Israeli citizen, called From Iraq to Armageddon, and we have the OT and NT historical-contextual Seminary scholars own commentaries in stark contrast in interpretation of  Biblical prophecy: where both are needed for perspective for the Church at large.  Yet too we have the excesses of those who are calling themselves Prophets, as to not being judged by the NT Prophets of our day according to scriptural principles as to ministry establishments, and qualifications.  What we need is a balanced church council on the subject, where the need for such is determined by the signs of the times in which we live. 

9. Jabez H.
   June 4th, 2009 @ 3:24 pm

   Bill, I apologize for not editing #7 above well.  I went back over it here for making better sense of it}  7) by holding the subject of prophecy at an intellectual arms length, as to establishing it in regard to personal and present experience, and labeling OT interpretation with the notion of  historical-contextual forthtelling as viable over the notion of foretelling our ministry equippage schools are not meeting a need in the Body of Christ.  OT and BT Scholars not permitting themselves as seminary gatekeepers of Biblical interpretion for the here and now may or may not be upheld as being in control as the experts to look to for understanding the historical and present day ministry of Prophecy.  In Evangelical schools for ministry or leadership training the seats of Biblical interpretation schooling were in a sense upheld by rejecting foretelling for forthtelling as an explanation of Biblical Prophecy interpretation, while the notion of NT prophets for the here and now has not been substantively delt with.  All local churches and denominations generally can agree on the viability of the Billy Graham ministry as representative of a NT Evangelism, few would agree that anyone anywhere who is not already dead and buried is representative of a NT Prophet.  This says something about the disorientation to what Paul and Jesus taught in scripture about this ministry and its present day intentions.

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