93 Responses to “October 13, 2009”

1. daniel
   October 14th, 2009 @ 1:44 pm

   Mike Brown, I think the reason that special laws are made to prosecute these special crimes TO DISCOURAGE people from doing such an “unnecessary” crime. Some crimes may have needs – maybe someone will steal to feed themselves, and this is a need, but perhaps the fact that there are special laws to prosecute hate crimes may discourage someone from “hating” on these people. I do not think anyone should be hated on for any reason, no; however, there is a difference between protecting ANY people (including gays) and BLESSING them (giving them marriage status and the benefits that go with it.)

2. daniel
   October 14th, 2009 @ 1:55 pm

   God let me understand (I believe it was God) that science IS “trusting in my own understanding” which is denounced by God, and that this is literally the age of the great spiritual darkness that is trusting in our own understanding.

3. Benji
   October 14th, 2009 @ 9:28 pm

   “show me in the bible we should worship on Sunday?”

   Well scriptures show that the early disciples did in fact worship on Sunday, the first Sunday, the very day that Jesus rose from the dead. Dr Brown says that the early disciples kept Torah with respect to the appropriate day of worship (sabbath) – I’m not sure that this is completely accurate. We do know that they gathered together and worshiped on a day that was not sabbath. My understanding is that they broke Torah on this one issue. And something of monumental significance must have happened for them to do this (to break Torah). And that monumental event must have been the resurrection of Jesus.

   Why else does 99% of the Gentile world worship on Sunday? They learned their religion from those zealous Torah observers who would have taught them to worship on Saturday in accordance with their religion – unless of course, something of a monumental significance occurred which caused them to change the day on which they worship.

   The only reasonable explanation from a deviation from Torah on the day of worship is that the Gentiles learned otherwise from their Jewish teachers. And they worshiped on Sunday because that’s when Jesus rose from the dead.

   So whenever we worship on Sunday, we are yet again proclaiming his resurrection till he returns.

   …………in the end it really doesn’t matter. The Lord looks to the heart and commands obedience. Worshiping 24 hours later will not see you in hell, surely.

4. Cliff Wilson
   October 15th, 2009 @ 6:00 pm

   As Christians we are to worship God everyday with our whole hearts…What do days matter? Take your rest on the Sabbath Worship God everyday!

5. daniel
   October 16th, 2009 @ 1:38 pm

   through Christ, we are dead to the Law. The Law of Moses only applies to a living person, but when he is dead, he is free from the Law of Moses, and we who believe in Jesus Christ have died together with Him, and we are to live in newness of resurrection life by the Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter.

6. Jabez H.
   October 17th, 2009 @ 2:02 pm

   Daniel, True, but, does this mean we are immune from the Decalogue? You know, the Ten Commandments that certain Courts removed from public buildings? Or, is such removal a sign of the times, and our culture’s drift away to moral relativism?

7. Dr Michael L Brown
   October 17th, 2009 @ 2:33 pm

   Benji,

   Where does the NT state that clearly that the believers worshiped on the first day of the week? I’m sure you’re aware that Acts 20 could just as well point to them meeting on a Saturday night (the first day of the week on the Jewish calendar), and even if meant Sunday night (following the Roman calendar), it’s a night meeting rather than Sunday morning. Then, according to Acts 21, thousands of Jewish believers in Jerusalem were zealous for the Torah — which included, of course, Sabbath observance on Saturday.

8. Jabez H.
   October 17th, 2009 @ 2:44 pm

   I am going to enter a comment here, though it is in response to a messianic question and answer session asserted by Michael Brown, PhD. I am not sure on what date I heard it. In the session MB asserted that there is nothing special about the Hebrew language, it preexisting its Biblical context, as such it was just a language like any other.

   I would respectfully disagree, with a consideration of the words of Yeshua about oaths. Where He stated that making an oath on the Temple Gold without the Temple’s related context made the Gold nothing to make an oath upon. Once the language was either incorporated into the naming of the chosen tribes use, the author(s) of Torah expression of God’s standards and care, or the Tetragrammation, it certainly became more than mere script or other writing as so related. Even the sacred name, and the symbols of Hebrew worship became related to the scripted Book, the People, the Revelations given by YHVH to them, and so where the sacred Law and Commandments were given in the language of expression God chose for that revelation.

   The selection of Hebrew is like the tallit Tzitzits or fringe ties of a shawl used for prayer, also selected for holy dedication, which a woman touched when Yeshua walked by her, and was healed. Over this touch Yeshua felt power going out of him, stopped, and responded to the event and the person. Certainly, though the shawl was for purposes of submission and dedication to God, the fringe tie was not sacred by itself without the direct relationship to God’s chosen One, as with the sacred use of and revelations given through the Hebrew language. However, as is stated in one of the Psalms, “I have placed my word above my name, lest I be worshiped as an idol.” It is the heart which occupies relationship to language, sacred Messiah, sacred text, and its enscription so regarded. And it is the mouth which confesses unto salvation. His word and the context of the Visitation came in the context of the Book scripted in Hebrew, and as such anointing the lives of those in relationship to it.

9. Echad
   October 18th, 2009 @ 2:14 am

   Benji,

   I am so sorry that you were led to believe that Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday…

   Passover begins the 14th of Nissan – observed right before the 15th
   3 Most important rites in this ritual – slaying of the lamb, breaking of the matza, and eating of the bitter herbs
   Unleavened Bread begins on the 15th of Nissan right after Passover.
   Lev 23:6 :And on the fifteeth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread”

   Firstfruits begins on Nissan 16th (except if the 16th was a sabbath, then it begins on the 17th)
   Lev: 10:1 “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it”

   There are 2 ways to determine crucifixion day (simple and biblical):
   The Simple way – The Lord’s day has always been the First day of the week (Sat evening to Sun evening)
   Rev 1:10 “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet”
   Why was it the Lord’s Day? History reports Nissan 18 as the Day of Resurrection
   John 20:1 ” The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre”
   Yeshua said He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights –
   Matt 12:40 “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Hell, yes for those of you that don’t know, Yeshua went to Hell)
   Human bodies decay in normal circumstances > 72 hours (3 days), not 1.5 days -
   John 11:39 “Jesus said, Take ye away the stone, Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days”
   Yeshua was given a promise that his body would not see physical corruption-
   Psalm 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell: neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption”

   Simple way proves crucifixion was Wed afternoon or 3 days from the Lord’s Day -
   Day 1 (Wed-Thurs evening); Day 2 Thurs-Friday evening); Day 3 Fri-Sat evening)
   Jewish leadership confirms that his grave was sealed 3 full days (14th-17th) –
   Matt 27:64-66 “Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first. Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can. So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch”

   Biblical way – Determins crucifixion day by Festival practice:
   Sabbath rest during a Festival was called a High Sabbath -
   John 19:31 “The Jew therefore, because it eas the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they mgith be taken away”

   Biblical proves burial was Wed afternoon or 1 day before Preparation Day
   Mark 15:42-43 “And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus”
   Sabbath (Fri – Sat even), High Sabbath (Thurs – Fri even), Preparation (Wed – Thurs even)

   Unleavened Bread requires three personal changes to enjoy full benefits of festival
   Environmental Change – remove leaven from your home 30 days prior to Passover
   It symbolizes the removal of circumstantial influences that defile you
   Num 16:25-26 “And Moses rose up and went unto Dathan and Abiram; and the elders of Israel followed him. And he spake unto the congregation, saying, Depart, I pray you, from the tents of these wicked men, and touch nothing of theirs, lest ye be consumed in all their sins”

   Diet change – Remove the leaven out of diet for 7 days during Passover
   It symbolizes the removal of personal habitual influences that defile you
   2Cor 7:1-2 “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves form all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfection holiness in the fear of God. Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man”

   Lifestyle Change – keeping the leaven out of your home 50 days following Pentecost
   It symbolizes keeping from behavioral influences that defile you
   Heb 12:1 “Therefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us”

   Unleavened Bread requires three marital changes to enjoy full benefits of the festival
   2Cor 11:2-3 “For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve throu his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ”
   Change 1 – Must go from present betrothal to the renewal
   Change 2 – Must go from present preparation
   Change 3 – Must go from temporary cleansing to a new holiness

   What 2 things should I start doing now you ask…
   1 – Preparing to renew your marital vow with Yeshua
   Eph 5:25-27 “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish”
   2 – Preparing to give my renewal gift to Yeshua
   Lev 23:15-16 “And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord”

10. Dr Michael L Brown
    October 18th, 2009 @ 3:12 pm

    Echad,

    All the evidence of which I am aware points to Jesus rising from the dead early on Sunday morning.

11. Echad
    October 19th, 2009 @ 12:22 am

    Dr. Michael,

    I know you are an a scholar, and I know you can appreciate a different perspective. I will give you some more information to further my position.

    Festival Chronology
    Nissan 14 (Tues Evening) – Yeshua ate with his Disciples that evening
    Luke 22:15-16 “And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of G-d”
    (Wed Morning) –
    1 – Yeshua is taken before the High Priest as the Scapegoat offering
    Mark 14:61-69 “But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death”
    2 – Yeshua is taken before Pontius Pilate
    Matt 27:21-26 “When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified”
    3 – Yeshua is taken to the cross -
    Matt 27:29-31 “And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him”

    (Wed Afternoon)
    Matt 27:45-46 “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My G-d, My G-d, why hast thou forsaken me?”
    1 The Father accepts the scapegoat offering -
    Matt 27 47-51 “And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent” – no more ceremonial sacrifices accepted
    2 The Son accepts the Father’s promise
    Acts 2:31-33 “And seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was no left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath G-d raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of G-d exalted, and having received of the Father the promis of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear”

    (Wed Evening, prior to sunset)
    1 – Yeshua’s body final preparation as matzah
    Matt 27:57-60 “When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed”

    It was prior to sunset, because they had to get all of this done before Passover. Or then Joseph would then be unclean.

    Nissan 15-18 (Wed Evening – Sat Evening)
    1 – Yeshua went to the deepest part of Hades to preach to the Gentiles, he went down there because he had a tremendous amount of sin on him.
    John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”
    1Peter 3:18-19 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to G-d, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”

    Nissan 18 (Sat Evening at sundown)
    1 – Yeshua and the believing saints in Hades
    Matt 27:52-53 “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out to the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many”
    His murder -
    Rev 1:18 “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys to hell and of death”
    The same keys which the second Adam willingly gave to Satan.
    Yeshua sees Mary first, she saw him on the Lord’s Day, she went to the tomb, but it was already opened, the earliest she could go out in public to the sepulchre would be in the morning hours, any time before that and it would not be seen as proper.
    John 20:16-17 “Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni, which is to say, Master. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my bretheren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my G-d, and your G-d”
    He told her not to touch him cause she would have defiled the offering as he was on His way to presenting himself to His Father.
    John 20:19-20 “Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace me unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord”

    IF he was crucified mid day on your calendar Michael, then he would have had to resurrected mid day on the Lord’s day, but Mary came at dawn on the Lord’s day…

12. Dr Michael L Brown
    October 19th, 2009 @ 12:35 am

    Echad,

    I suggest that you study the data in the major commentaries of top NT scholars like Bock, Keener, Nolland, France, and others on the relevant passages in the Gospels. They will help set the record straight.

13. Benji
    October 21st, 2009 @ 7:36 am

    readers and Dr. Brown – I can’t come up with anything which positively states that the early disciples worshiped on Sunday, or “broke Torah” . I had this thing in my mind that they gathered together and worshiped after the resurrection, but we don’t see anything authoritative in the gospels apart from them just “being together” or words to that effect. I was after something i thought i saw in the gospels or early acts, but not acts 20. curious.

14. daniel
    October 22nd, 2009 @ 1:20 am

    I don’t get it, man, what don’t you understand about Galatians?

    THE LAW HAS NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH A CHRISTIAN (except some revelations which God could give you concerning our walk with Christ from them)…

    We break torah as a manner of life!!! But we keep the Spirit of the Law!!!

15. Ben
    October 22nd, 2009 @ 4:22 am

    Benji,

    I assume you understand that we are not under the law anymore, correct? If an individual worships Jesus on any other day besides Sunday, do you believe that this individual is wrong?

16. Ben
    October 22nd, 2009 @ 4:28 am

    Let me clarify on my post above. We worship Jesus everyday in our personal time. But my question to Benji is:

    Let say an individual attends worship service on other days of the week besides Sunday, is that individual committing a sin?

17. Mwiya
    October 22nd, 2009 @ 12:19 pm

    Hey guys, not to side with Benji. But keeping the sabbath has nothing to do with going to church or the synagogue. Follow Jesus’ example and how he kept the sabatth by doing good on it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the sabath, the day is holy as the commandment states. If any thing the day is also there as a foreshadow of the rest we shall enjoy in completeness in Messiah. The hebrew work calendar had 6 days for working and one weekend day, one day to chill out.

    However, what matters is how you keep it; Is it according to the letter or to the Spirit? A person can be just as legalistic about Sunday church going as a legalistic pharisee was about sabbath keeping. Sabbath keeping was about REST, not going to church or synagogue, that’s something that evolved out of the exile in Babylon.
    My view is to whom the day is holy it is holy and they may keep it, another may wish to rest on another day and keep that day holy we are not under law and so they may do so. Reconciling that with the ten commandments has always been perplexing for me, because i don’t understand why the other 9 commandments are taken as in effect and this 1 commandment is not after all Jesus said he came not to destroy the law. I understand why there is no circumcision for gentiles or why kosher laws and sacrifices are not necessary, but this one the sabbath commandment is the one that I don’t really understand. The only explanation i can think of could be that because we have died with Christ and have risen with Him, in heaven perhaps sabbath laws are not kept the way they are on earth and perhaps the ultimate rest is that rest that fulfills that commandment and as for the other 9 commandments they take into consideration things that could affect even the angels perhaps e.g. the angels who slept with women in Genesis sinned against God. So perhaps that explains it, but then thats just theorizing…..I really do not have any clue on this one. I just understand that the problem is one of legalism and not the substance and form of keeping the sabbath as Messiah did himself.

18. Jabez H.
    October 23rd, 2009 @ 11:13 pm

    Shabbat, the Lord’s Day, or any specially devoted observance of devotion is not wrong, it is by conviction and regard of the invisible One made present in the visible! We honor God by taking on a relational devotional structure, with the boundaries of a Calendar because the whole pracrtice of doing so is first given by G-d. As Saul of Tarsus said, to one one day is holy, to another every day is holy. Who are we to judge another as to one’s devotion and focus. We do such observations as reminders of He who was, is, and is to come!

19. Ruth Smith
    March 6th, 2010 @ 3:39 pm

    RE: The subject of the Law
    I’m glad to share from The Jewish New Testament, translated by David Stern, c. 1979, 1989, Chapter 7-10 of Hebrews, which of course concerns the Law as it is applicable after Yeshua’s (Jesus’) sacrifice. I feel it is a good, clear translation, though I also read other versions to compare.

    Hebrews 7:

    “This Malki-Tzedek, king of Shalem, a cohen of God HaElyon, met Avraham on his way back from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him; also Avraham gave him a tenth of everything.

    Now, first of all, by translation of his name, he is “king of righteousness;” and then he is also king of Shalem, which means “king of peace.”

    There is no record of his father, mother, ancestry, birth or death; rather, like the Son of God, he continues as a cohen (priest) for all time.

    Just think how great he was! Even the Patriarch Avraham gave him a tenth of his choicest spoils. Now the descendants of L’vi who became cohanim have a commandment in the Torah to take a tenth of the income of the people, that is, from their own brothers, despite the fact that they too are descended from Avraham. But Malki-Tzedek, even though he was not descended from L’vi, took a tenth from Avraham.

    Also, he blessed Avraham, the man who received God’s promises; and it is beyond all dispute that the one who blesses has higher status than the one who receives the blessing.

    Moreover, in the case of the cohanim, the tenth is received by men who die; while in the case of Malki-Tzedek, it is received by someone who is testified to be still alive.

    One might go even further and say that L’vi, who himself receives tenths, paid a tenth through Avraham, inasmuch as he was still in his ancestor Avraham’s body when Malki-Tzedek met him.

    Therefore, if it had been possible to reach the goal through the system of cohanim derived from L’vi (since in connection with it, the people were given the Torah)), what need would there have been for another, different kind of cohen, the one spoken of as to be compared with Malki-Tzedek and not to be compared with Aharon? For if the system of cohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah. The one about whom these things are said belongs to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar; for everyone knows that our Lord arose out of Y’hudah, and that Moshe said nothing about this tribe when he spoke about cohanim.

    It becomes even clearer if a “different kind of cohen,” one like Malki-Tzedek, arises, one who became a cohen not by virtue of a rule in the Torah concerning physical descent, but by virtue of the power of an indestructible life. For it is stated,

    “You are a cohen FOREVER, to be compared with Malki-Tzedek.”

    Thus, on the one hand, the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God.

    What is more, God swore an oath. For no oath was sworn in connection with those who become cohanim now; but Yeshua became a cohen by the oath which God swore when he said to him,

    “Adonai has sworn and will not change his mind, ‘You are a cohen forever.’”

    Also this shows how much better is the covenant of which Yeshua has become guarantor.

    Moreover, the present cohanim are many in number, because they are prevented by death from continuing in office. But because he lives forever, his position as cohen does not pass on to someone else; and consequently, he is totally able to deliver those who approach God through him; since he is alive forever and thus forever able to intercede on their behalf.

    This is the kind of cohen gadol (High Priest) that meets our need — holy, without evil, without stain, set apart from sinners and raised higher than the heavens, one who does not have the daily necessity, like the other cohanim g’dolim (High Priests), of offering up sacrifices first for their own sins and only then for those of the people, because he offered one sacrifice, once and for all, by offering up himself. For the Torah appoints as cohanim g’dolim (High Priests) men who have weakness; but the text which speaks about the swearing of the oath, a text written later than the Torah, appoints a Son who has been brought to the goal forever.”

    Chapter 8:

    “Here is the whole point of what we have been saying: we do have just such a cohen gadol (High Priest) as has been described. And he does sit at the right hand of HaG’dulah (the Majesty, i.e., God) in heaven. There he serves in the Holy Place, that is, in the true Tent of Meeting, the one erected not by human beings but by Adonai.

    For every cohen gadol is apointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so this cohen gadol too has to have something he can offer. Now if he were on earth, he wouldn’t be a cohen at all, since there already are cohanim offering the gifts offered by the Torah. But what they are serving is only a copy and shadow of the heavenly original; for when Moshe was about to erect the Tent, God warned him, “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern you were shown on the mountain.”

    But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as Torah on the basis of better promises. Indeed, if the first covenant had not given ground for faultfinding, there would have been no need for a second one. For God does find fault with the people when he says,

    “See, the days are coming, says Adonai, when I will establish over the house of Israel and over the house of Y’hudah a new covenant.

    It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,’ says Adonai.

    For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,’ says Adonai: I will put my Torah in their minds and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.

    None of them will teach his fellow-citizen or his brother, saying, “Know Adonai!” For all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest, because I will be merciful toward their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.”

    By using the term, “new,” he has made the first covenant “old”; and something being made old, something in the process of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether.”

    Chapter 9:

    “Now the first covenant had both regulatons for worship and a Holy Place here on earth. A tent was set up, the outer one, which was called the Holy Place; in it were the menorah, the table and the Bread of the Presence. Behind the second parokhet (curtain separating the Holiest Place from the rest of the Temple)was a tent called the Holiest Place, which had the golden altar for burning incense and the Ark of the Covenant, entirely covered with gold. In the Ark were the gold jar containing the manna, Aharon’s rod that sprouted and the stone Tablets of the Covenant; and above it were the k’ruvim (cherubim) representing the Sh’khinah (the manifest glorious presence of God), casting their shadow on the lid of the Ark — but now is not the time to discuss these things in detail.

    With things so arranged, the cohanim go into the outer tent all the time to discharge their duties; but only the cohen hagadol enters the inner one; and he goes in only once a year, and he must always bring blood, which he offers both for himself and for the sins committed in ignorance by the people. By this arrangement, the Ruach HaKodesh showed that so long as the first Tent had standing, the way into the Holiest Place was still closed. This symbolizes the present age and indicates that the conscience of the person performing the service cannot be brought to the goal by the gifts and sacrifices he offers. For they involve only food and drink and various ceremonial washings — regulations concerning the outward life, imposed until the time for God to reshape the whole structure.

    But when the Messiah appeared as cohen gadol of the good things that are happening already, then, through the greater and more perfect Tent which is not man-made (that is, it is not of this created world), he entered the Holiest Place once and for all.

    And he entered not by means of the blood of goats and calves, but by means of his own blood, thus setting people free forever. For if sprinkling ceremoniously unclean persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer restores their outward purity; then how much more the blood of the Messiah, who, through the eternal Spirit, offered himself to God as a sacrifice without blemish, will purify our conscience from works that lead to death, so that we can serve the living God!

    It is because of this death that he is mediator of a new covenant [or will.] Because a death has occurred which sets people free from the transgressions committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promised eternal inheritance. For where there is a will, there must necessarily be produced evidence of its maker’s death, since a will goes into effect only upon death; it never has force while its maker is still alive.

    This is why the first covenant too was inaugurated with blood. After Moshe had proclaimed every command of the Torah to all the people, he took bhe blood of the calves with some water and used scarlet wool and hyssop to sprinkle both the scroll itself and all the people; and he said, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has ordained for you.” Likewise, he sprinkled with the blood both the Tent and all the things used in its ceremonies. In fact, according to the Torah, almost everything is purified with blood; indeed, without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

    Now this is how the copies of the heavenly things had to be purified, but the heavenly things themselves require better sacrifices than these. For the Messiah has entered a Holiest Place which is not man-made and merely a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, in order to appear now on our behalf in the very presence of God.

    Further, he did not enter heaven to offer himself over and over again, like the cohen hagadol who enters the Holiest Place year after year with blood that is not his own; for then he would have had to suffer death many times — from the founding of the universe on. But as it is, he has appeared once at the end of the ages in order to do away with sin through the sacrifice of himself. Just as human beings have to die once, but after this comes judgement; so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to deliver those who are eagerly waiting for him.”

    Chapter 10:

    “For the Torah has in it a shadow of the good things to come, but not the actual manifestation of the originals. Therefore, it can never, by means of the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, bring to the goal those who approach the Holy Place to offer them. Otherwise, wouldn’t the offering of those sacrifices have ceased? For if the people performing the service had been cleansed once and for all, they would no longer have sins on their conscience. No, it is quite the contrary — in these sacrifices is a reminder of sins, year after year. For it is impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins.

    This is why, on coming into the world, he says,

    “It has not been your will to have an animal sacrifice and a meal offering: rather, you have prepared for me a body. No, you have not been pleased with burnt offerings and sin offerings. Then I said, “Look! In the scroll of the book it is written about me. I have come to do your will.”" [Psalm 40:7-9 (6-8)]

    In saying first, “You neither willed nor were pleased with animal sacrifices, meal offerings, burnt offerings, and sin offerings,” things which are offered in accordance with the Torah, and then, “Look, I have come to do your will; he takes away the first system in order to set up the second. It is in connection with this will that we have been separated for God and made holy, once and for all, through the offering of Yeshua the Messiah’s body.

    Now, every cohen stands every day doing his service, offering over and over the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this one, after he had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, sat down at the right hand of God, and from then on to wait until his enemies be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has brought to the goal for all time those who are being set apart for God and made holy.

    And the Ruach HaKodesh too bears witness to us; for after saying,

    “This is the coveant which I will make with them after those days, ” says Adonai: “I will put my Torah on their hearts, and write it on their minds,”

    he then adds,

    “And their sins and their wickednesses I will remember no more.”

    Now where there is forgiveness for these, an offering for sins is no longer needed.

    So, brothers, we have confidence to use the way into the Holiest Place opened by the blood of Yeshua. He inaugurated it for us as a new and living way through the parokhet, by means of his flesh. We also have a great cohen over God’s household. Therefore, let us approach the Holiest Place with a sincere heart, in the full assurance that comes from trusting — with our hearts sprinkled clean from a bad conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us continue holding fast to the hope we acknowledge, without wavering; for the One who made the promise is trustworthy. And let us keep paying attention to one another, in order to spur each other on to love and good deeds, not neglecting our own congregational meetings, as some have made a practice of doing, but rather, encouraging each other.

    And let us do this all the more as you see the Day approaching. For if we deliberately continue to sin after receving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

    Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!

    For the One we know is the One who said,
    “Vengeance is my responsibility; I will repay.” and then said,
    “Adonai will judge his people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God!

    But remember the earlier days, when after you had received the light, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings. Sometimes you were publicly disgraced and persecuted, while at other times you stood loyally by those who were treated this way. For you shared the sufferings of those who had been put in prison. Also when your possessions were seized, you accepted it gladly; since you know that what you possessed was better and would last forever.

    So don’t throw away that courage of yours, which carries with it such a great reward. For you need to hold out; so that, by having done what God wills, you may receive what he has promised. For

    “There is so, so little time! The One coming will indeed come, he will not delay. But the person who is righteous will live his life by trusting, and if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.” (Habakkuk 2:3-4)

    However, we are not the kind who shrink back and are destroyed; on the contrary, we keep trusting and thus preserve our lives!”

    ****************************************************

20. Erika
    March 6th, 2010 @ 4:10 pm

    Oh Ruth, thank you for pointing me to this link here

    So if you want to have my two cents on animal sacrifices as sin atonement – no, in my opinion they are not relevant anymore.

    But animal sacrifices were not only made as sin atonement – there were lots of other sacrifices done, for example the thanksgiving offering (Leviticus 3). In general I think that the whole sacrificial system teaches a lot about how our relationship to Yahweh should be – that He is the center of everything.

    That is why I would say that we should take these lessons and let them teach us HOW YESHUA has come to fulfill the Torah in our lives, because this was the whole purpose of all the sacrifices. They point to Yeshua in so many ways!! Paul himself says in Romans that it is a great advantage to know the Torah – because this is to know Yeshua who is the heart of the Torah!

    The Church still believes that Yeshua came to do away with the Torah instead of fulfilling it, which is absolutely contrary to Matthew 5:17

    Remember that the letter to the Hebrews was written to Hebrews and not to Romans.

    But why should we keep talking about this. Have a good week dear Ruth. Shalom.

21. Ruth Smith
    March 6th, 2010 @ 5:14 pm

    Erika,

    You wrote:

    “Remember that the letter to the Hebrews was written to Hebrews and not to Romans.”

    It’s interesting to me to hear that as a minister I knew said the same thing when I pointed out something in the book of James (KJV) or Yochanon. There are not two separate gospels, however. We are not Romans, we are not Corinthians, etc., yet the gospel is intended for all of us throughout the world; and it’s up to us to believe or not believe it.

    I shared The Jewish New Testament Hebrews 7-10 because it is very relevant to the discussion thread we (you, me, Bo, and others) were having, essentially, on the Laws of the Torah.

    There has been some agreement that not all of the mandates are alive today > they pointed, as shadows, to a better covenant > to Messiah Jesus/Yeshua mediating for us as our High Priest, because he is incorruptible and eternal, and His sacrifice was “once for all time.” This is what Hebrews clearly addresses : the whole question of the Law in general and WHY many people have said, along with Paul, that we are not under the Old Covenant.

    Now, I know that some people have misused that Law of Liberty to imply that all the old principles of righteousness are no more. Of course, I am not advocating this, nor are most Christians. I’ve only made known what I’ve read that Jesus simplified everything into two basic commandments. Love the LORD your God with all your heart, mind, soul, spirit, strength, and Love your neighbor as yourself. Instead of a lot of Thou Shalt Nots, He made it into a positive DO — Do unto others has you would have done to you. I feel this definitely gets to the essence of the commandments. I think we’re all in agreement about that. And of course, Love of God would compel one to read everything in the entire Bible!

    As for the animal sacrifices you mention in Leviticus, Hebrews does address this very thing. Because there was not one Torah for one people and one Torah for another people; so anything in the gospel relevant to the Torah is concerning the one Torah which came through Moses.

    I have just typed up a very clear version of this above, chaps. 7-10, though I’ve also read the King James Version. I wish you would read that post completely (Hebrews 7-10) and then revisit the idea you mention of sacrifices in Leviticus — Paul’s a much better explainer than I am!

    You wrote: “Paul himself says in Romans that it is a great advantage to know the Torah – because this is to know Yeshua who is the heart of the Torah!” I totally agree. I have met people in my life who HAVE said all you need is the New Testament. This is obviously because they themselves are ignorant of the Old Testament, and of course, I competely disagree. Besides, loving God with all our hearts, minds, etc. — doesn’t His Spirit make us search the scriptures? All of them? As you basically said, how can someone appreciate what Jesus brought without knowing the Torah. I totally agree that the New Covenant brings the Old into a sharper relief, and in fact, is what the Old pointed to for centuries…

    You wrote: “The Church still believes that Yeshua came to do away with the Torah instead of fulfilling it, which is absolutely contrary to Matthew 5:17″ When you write “The Church” I think it should be qualified. I have heard people say this, but I have never seen it as offical church doctrine anywhere. I don’t know of a church which does not find the entire Bible of great benefit. I feel that this is definitely a sweeping misconception that some people have had and have spread, and I think I can understand how it may have come about.

    Paul writes in Hebrews about how the Torah could not bring anyone to the “goal,” i.e., salvation. He explains how the Torah was a shadow of things to come: How Jesus, as our High Priest who is perfect, is able to go into the Holiest Place in heaven, (whereas high priests went into that place in tents on earth), to intercede for us — essentially making the Levitical structure with its priests no longer necessary after Jesus. Paul writes about the “transformation of the Torah,” so yes, we honor the New Covenant because it is greater and better than the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant is a shadow which points to the New. Comparing the Old with the New, I don’t think anyone could doubt that the New is definitely better. But we need to have a clear understanding of both.

    Furthermore, Paul wrote: “Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!” It’s a warning, frankly, that we are not to regard the New Covenant, inaugurated by Christ’s shed blood as something “common.” It has led us to Grace, something we did not have before! Indeed, things have changed and they are better.

    Since Jesus fulfilled the Torah, and He himself said, “Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law until all is fulfilled,” what else can we glean from this? Some people have interpreted this to mean that He performed every aspect of the Torah. But obviously, He did not perform the function of stoning someone, He did not perform as a priest in the synagogue made with hands by offerings on the fire. So that is taken too literally that he “performed every bit of the Torah.” To fulfill the obligations of the Torah, however, yes, His ultimate sacrifice and His teachings, especially His “new commandment” covered or fulfilled what the Torah was trying to lead to, but could not fulfill, which was why God said he would make a New Covenant. Because the Old could not accomplish what the New did and yet can.

    Please just read Hebrews, at least what I’ve posted. It looks long, but it’s a quick read. Don’t imagine it’s just for the Jews in Paul’s lifetime. It is very relevant to this particular discussion we’re having about Torah, as the Torah is the same one. From it you might understand where certain misconceptions about “abolishing” have arisen, but I’m sure it will be clear to you after reading, what Paul is actually getting at.

    Thank you in advance for patiently exploring the post.

    Peace

22. Erika
    March 6th, 2010 @ 5:32 pm

    Ruth, by me saying that the letter to the Hebrews was written to the Hebrews I did not mean that therefore it is not relevant to us – on the contrary – I think if we want to glean from that letter we ourselves MUST become Hebrews – otherwise we will tear everything out of context – which is happening constantly by the way in modern Christianity.

    So how can we quote Hebrews if we don’t know the context? Why did Paul write a completely different letter to the Romans? Stupid people would say now because Paul was incoherent…. WE are those who are incoherent however.

    Yeshua also said that heaven and earth will not pass away until everything is fulfilled, which shows quite clearly that some stuff has not been fulfilled yet – for example the feast of Trumpets (Matt. 24:31), Yom Kippur (Zech. 12) and the feast of Sukkot (Zech. 14). Or do we want to do away with Revelation?

    Peace my sister – I know that you have the right heart – but a lot of junk (not yours) just keeps bothering me. Have a great week!!

23. Ruth Smith
    March 6th, 2010 @ 7:02 pm

    I hope you have a great week, too, Erika, and thank you for mentioning Romans. I have read it in the KJV, but am digging it for the first time in the Jewish New Testament, and while Paul is definitely writing to Gentiles (which I am), he is not in any wise contradicting any of his points in Hebrews; au contraire, he is reaffirming them…not that you were implying otherwise when you wrote about a “different letter.”

    And of course, I agree — there is much left to be fulfilled…

    Yes, I am your sister in the Spirit; we are both blessed to have received true forgiveness of sins through faith in our Lord, Yeshua, our Redeemer, and holy baptism, and yes, it is truly a wonderful experience to know we can go “boldly to the throne of Grace,” as Paul writes, knowing we have an incorruptible High Priest-intercessor, and we can live a new life, constantly renewed, in the Holy Spirit of our Gracious God.

    I wish you peace and goodwill also…not that we’ve finished discussion…I feel it is a winnowing process which helps us all to work out the meanings and is beneficial, definitely, so thank you also for your participation.

    Peace/ Shalom, my sister

24. Erika
    March 7th, 2010 @ 6:17 am

    Thank you Ruth. You know, the whole crux is that we just don’t see were this whole thing is going. As I said hundreds of times already – this is absolutely NOT about being “Jewish” or “Christian” – it is about whom do we follow – Yeshua or other teachers. Paul’s letters have been abused by the church for almost 2000 years, and the fruit of it is that many people today leave Christianity in order to become “Jewish”. I could point you to websites that would make your hair stand on end (since it would show you the whole damage of Constantine’s doctrine)! I won’t do it here though.

    I just would like to quote Matthew 17:11

    “Yeshua answered them, “Elijah indeed comes first, and will restore all things.”

    as well as Malachi 4:4-6

    ““Remember the Torah of Moses my servant, which I commanded to him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances. 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes. 4:6 He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

    This is by the way the last verse in the Christian Old Testament. I find it very meaningful.

    So if we are living in the last days today and don’t act accordingly, and if we don’t see that the Torah of Moses was given by Yeshua, then we are in big (!) trouble!

25. Ruth Smith
    March 7th, 2010 @ 12:46 pm

    Thank you, Erika.

    I agree that Paul’s words have been misused and quoted out of context and people have used it as a “license to sin,” which of course, Paul was definitely not thinking of — but it was a problem then, and it is a problem now.

    Rather than throw out Paul’s beautiful explanation of the New Covenant, however, church leaders should be pointing people to a fuller exposition of it. The solution is not to react by disregarding it, but to grasp its nuances. Neither is the solution to “throw out Torah” which would fly in the face of all that Jesus as well as Paul said. They are not mutually exclusive..! But there is, certainly, a “transformation of Torah,” to bring the intent of it to fruition, and this is the work of God, not men. Also, Jesus brought forgiveness of sins (but not just blanketly, without the individual first seeking humbly, out of repentance); and as Paul wrote, “Now where there is forgiveness for these, an offering for sins is no longer needed.” Hebrews Ch. 10:18. We don’t have to wait for the priest in the Levitical structure to offer for our sins; it was done, once and for all, by our Risen Lord. But in order to avail ourselves of this Grace it is my understanding that we must first petition Him in prayer, humbly ask with true contrition, for forgiveness and certainly, sin no more! Could this be abused? Well, it could be taught wrongly and someone could claim that this releases them from the obligation to do rightly, but they would be deluding themselves (and any others whom they may have taught).

    Just because some have misused this, we do not have to follow their wayward example. But certainly, we have to not be guilty of throwing out the New Covenant in the process:

    “Someone who disregards the Torah of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!” Hebrews Ch. 10:28

    But I know what you are saying certainly — and this is an area which obviously needs a lot of clarification for people, and indeed, I am only coming into a deeper understanding of it myself. I wish Dr. Brown would do a whole show on this very subject.

    Let us pray that the Holy Spirit, which guides us in all Truth, will reveal it all quite plainly to us and to our brothers and sisters. Satan, the author of confusion, is no doubt working overtime on this issue, trying to tear the Body apart.

    Thanks for your comments.

    Peace!

26. Ruth Smith
    March 7th, 2010 @ 1:06 pm

    Erika,

    I like this explanation by Scott Grant:

    http://www.pbc.org/messages/map_old_file/heb14.html

27. Ruth Smith
    March 7th, 2010 @ 1:46 pm

    Erika, I do think that “conscience” is a key concept.

    I grew up in a pork chop-eating household; bacon, all that. Used to love broiled chops with Heinz 57 sauce as a child. Throughout my childhood, God’s been calling to me. I used to look up at the sky and yearn for God. Didn’t know where to go, where to look, so I looked everywhere, in most of the world’s religions. At some point, I realized I had to go to the Bible. I knew I couldn’t be satisfied with a quote here and quote there, I was going to read it all for myself. Also, the Lord told me (in prayer) that He had “published” His “works.” I had been reading a lot of fiction in college. The idea of God as a writer was intriguing. So I thought I’ll read these stories/books in chronological order, instead of skipping around. After all, this is how we read “Moby Dick” and other published works, right? We wouldn’t pick up a novel and randomly read around; we’d start at the beginning. So did I. To make a long story short, I came to totally believe in the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” He terrified me, too, but I had (and have) no doubt He was/is real. When I got to the passages about “swine’s flesh,” I resolved then and there not to eat it. And sure enough, whenever I gave in to some bacon that somebody had put in a sandwich at a gathering, or a little sausage on the pizza that somebody had prepared, I would actually have a physical reaction. My nose would actually swell a little and itch. No kidding! My Mom was especially concerned about my new pig-revulsion and for awhile, wouldn’t honor it, making things with pig meat and not telling me, stuff like that. But I stuck to my convictions. I even researched pigs and learned stuff. (BTW, did you know that pigs are one of the few animals who actually will consume their own dead? Of course, pigs are also extremely intelligent, great at truffle-hunting and make affectionate pets. I think it’s wrong for the domestic pig’s keepers to feed it swill and other garbage. Just because they’ll eat anything, doesn’t mean it’s OK to feed them anything! Also, if you give a pig a choice between clean water and a mud hole, they’ll prefer the clean water.) Anyway, finally, my Mom got the message: I don’t eat pigs.

    Then I read about Peter’s vision: Acts 10: 9-36.

    Now I accept that what Jesus did had a transformative effect beyond anything I’d ever imagined. I still have a problem digesting pork; I still don’t eat it. My nose still itches and gets uncomfortable and I find it hard to digest. Maybe my body is manifesting that I’m still not comfortable with the idea of eating it. But IF it doesn’t bother anyone else’s conscience who eats it, and I believe in what happened to Peter, why should I consider it wrong for them? Or even myself? It may be that in my own conscience, I still have reservations to it. So I go by that.

    I know that the Kingdom of God is “more than eating and drinking” and I know that Paul became “all things to all men that they might be saved.” 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. When with Jews, he became as a Jew, when with Gentiles, he became as a Gentile, for the larger purpose of bringing them to Christ, because THAT was more important than food and drink.

    From what I can gather, it’s still up to our conscience. If a brother wants to abstain from pork, and it suits his own conscience before God, we are not to try and pry him from his conviction. Likewise, if a sister in the Lord enjoys a BBQ pork sandwich, we are not to look down on her and consider her habits sinful; it is all a matter of conscience. Love is more important. It goes into the heart; it’s greater than food and drink, which enter the intestines and leave the same way. Jesus was concerned that people were straining at gnats, remember? and swallowing camels; that is, ignoring the weightier issues of the Law. A tendency we still have to this day, I could add.

    Does this strike you as too liberal?

    Peace,

28. Erika
    March 7th, 2010 @ 3:11 pm

    No, that is fine Ruth, I just would like to add some notions to complete the picture. Four points or so.

    Point one: Concerning Acts 10 (Peter’s vision) we read in verse 28:

    “He said to them, “You yourselves know how it is an unlawful thing for a man who is a Jew to join himself or come to one of another nation, but God has shown me that I shouldn’t call any man unholy or unclean.”

    So we see clearly that this was a vision ABOUT PEOPLE and NOT ABOUT FOOD.

    Then in Acts 11 when Peter tells this acount to the other Apostles, they respond in verse 18:

    “When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life!”

    Again we see here that this is NOT about food but about gentiles being grafted into the nation of Israel. When God grafts them in, they are then not to be called unclean anymore.

    Second point: Mark chapter seven – where Yeshua says in verse 15

    “There is nothing from outside of the man, that going into him can defile him; but the things which proceed out of the man are those that defile the man.”

    Now if we look at the context of this statement, we see that it was a conflict again about the oral law – the washing of hands (commanded by the rabbis – not by Yahweh) – it was NOT about pork.

    Still there is this word “everything….” Does this mean now “everything that is declared as food by Yahweh” or just “everything – really everything”?

    I assume that the first option was the case. Why? Well, do we really believe that food does not affect us? Really?? Did Yeshua not know that fly agaric, doughnut and apple do have not only different effects on the body, but also different effects on our thinking processes?? Did He think that smoking cigarettes was all fine in the living temple of God??

    Was the effect of pork on people’s bodies and thinking processes BCE different than CE?? Is it not clear that our brain is the link between our body and our soul? Is the brain now an organ that needs food supply? Yes or no?

    If our brain needs food, we should be sure not to feed it with anything.

    Did Yahweh hate His people when He gave them through Moses the rules what to eat and what not to eat?
    No, I think He gave these rules out of LOVE!

    Back to the verse in Mark 7:15 – everything here means everything that is suitable as food. And what is suitable as food (see Leviticus 11) can be eaten with unwashed hands. Eating with unwashed hands does not defile our soul.

    Third point: The Apostolic concile in 15

    in the verses 19 and 20 Peter says:

    “Therefore my judgment is that we don’t trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood.”

    These were the rules of that day for people who wanted to learn about the God of Israel in the synagogues. You can look it up in the Talmud.

    In verse 21 Peter continues:

    “For Moses from generations of old has in every city those who proclaim him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

    What was the lesson of this event? The lesson simply was that our works cannot save us – but once we are saved we should love Yahweh by obeying His commandments. And if we love Yahweh and obey His commandments, it will only be to our benefit.

    Do we really have to let science tell us today that pork is not good for us since it can cause a lot of health problems? Should not WE be the light to science instead of letting science be our God?

    It is today still as described in Deut. 28:13

    “The LORD will make you the head, and not the tail; and you shall be above only, and you shall not be beneath; if you shall listen to the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day, to observe and to do.”

    But if we follow God after our own imaginations, we will end up listening to Babylon instead.

    Point four: If we take now a closer look at Acts 15:15-18 we read there:

    “This (gentiles coming to faith) agrees with the words of the prophets. As it is written,

    15:16 ‘After these things I will return.
    I will again build the tabernacle of David, which has fallen.
    I will again build its ruins.
    I will set it up,
    15:17 That the rest of men may seek after the Lord;
    All the Gentiles who are called by my name,
    Says the Lord, who does all these things.*
    15:18 All His works are known to God from eternity.’

    Peter says here that the gospel going to the gentiles is “building the fallen tabernacle of David and setting it up”.

    To me this is a very clear indication that God NEVER intended to create two different people groups that follow Him – the Jews and the non-Jews – but instead “the fallen tabernacle of David should be rebuilt” – ONE God and ONE congregation!

    How come that this is seen so differently in Christianity today? Because of politics and history that mantled themselves in religion. One of the biggest frauds in history was the council of Nizea – a main influence in Christianity today. For Christians it is very hard to recover from this. And so often the recovery gets averted from all different kinds of directions.

29. Erika
    March 7th, 2010 @ 3:28 pm

    P.S. just one more comment on Acts 15:15-18:

    We may wonder why Peter called the Israel of his time “the fallen tabernacle of David”.

    Why was it fallen? Because ten tribes of the nation of Israel (the northern kingdom) had been dispersed already in the world, and the remaining tribes, the southern kingdom, was under Roman occupation. The nation was quite devestated.

    In this context it is also quite interesting to read in Zechariah 9:11

    “As for you also,
    because of the blood of your covenant,
    I have set free your prisoners from the pit in which is no water.”

    and continuing in chapter 10:6a

    “I will strengthen the house of Judah,
    and I will save the house of Joseph…”

    The house of Judah is referring to the southern kingdom (including Jerusalem) and the house of Joseph is referring to the northern kingdom, after the kingdom of Israel split after the death of king Solomon.

    Again, the fallen tabernacle of David has to be built – by Jews and non-Jews alike – not anything else!!

30. Erika
    March 7th, 2010 @ 3:47 pm

    P.P.S. and if the fallen tabernacle of David is rebuilt again, all the rest of the world will seek after YHWH and fear Him. One people, One God and One law – for the whole world!

31. Ruth Smith
    March 7th, 2010 @ 8:08 pm

    Erika….I’m still reviewing your posts…

32. Ruth Smith
    March 7th, 2010 @ 11:14 pm

    Still reviewing, Erika, and tomorrow have a medical appointment to a nearby town. I’m happy to keep studying, though…thank you for your posts…will get back to you…

33. Erika
    March 8th, 2010 @ 9:06 am

    No problem Ruth. Get back to me when you feel you have time for it

34. Erika
    March 8th, 2010 @ 10:35 am

    Yet another passage that is used very often to justify the consumption of pork: 1. Corintians chapter 11. I’ll quote here the verses 23-33

    ““All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are profitable. “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things build up. 10:24 Let no one seek his own, but each one his neighbor’s good. 10:25 Whatever is sold in the butcher shop, eat, asking no question for the sake of conscience, 10:26 for “the earth is the Lord’s, and its fullness.” 10:27 But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no questions for the sake of conscience. 10:28 But if anyone says to you, “This was offered to idols,” don’t eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for the sake of conscience. For “the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.” 10:29 Conscience, I say, not your own, but the other’s conscience. For why is my liberty judged by another conscience? 10:30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced for that for which I give thanks? 10:31 Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 10:32 Give no occasions for stumbling, either to Jews, or to Greeks, or to the assembly of God; 10:33 even as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, that they may be saved.”

    That is what Paul wrote to the Corinthians. Now the context of this passage is very clear. The whole discussion is about whether or not it is OK to eat meat sacrificed to idols.

    No word about pork!

    Now we know that idol worship is not OK – but we also know that we are to advance Yahweh’s kingdom – and we are able to overcome demons by Yeshua. Instead of staying away from demons we now can overcome them – Yeshua in us is doing this!

    Yeshua overcomes demons – but nowwhere in the bible do we read that Yeshua came to inactivate the normal functions of our physical bodies. That’s why the food laws still apply to us – as long as we live in our physical bodies! Yeshua can also heal us miraculously – but nowhere in the bible are we encouraged to therefore let go accountability!

    In this very same letter in chapter 3:16 and 17 Paul says:

    “Don’t you know that you are a temple of God, and that God’s Spirit lives in you? 3:17 If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him; for God’s temple is holy, which you are.”

    So we should not destroy our body and mind by eating stuff that is not considered food by Yahweh.

    I will close here with Paul’s words again:

    “The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent, 17:31 because he has appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he has ordained; of which he has given assurance to all men, in that he has raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30)

    The time of Elijah has come and the fallen tabernacle of David must finally be rebuilt again. If we don’t learn it now, we will have to learn it the hard way (Zechariah 14:16-21 ; Malachi 4:4 – 4:6).

    “Whether therefore you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” AMEN Paul!!!

35. Erika
    March 8th, 2010 @ 10:47 am

    P.S. it does not depend on our conscience whether pork destroys our body or not. It simply depends on the way our body is created.

    The conscience-issue pertains to the power of demons.

36. Dangerous Bo
    March 8th, 2010 @ 11:38 pm

    Erika and Ruth,

    Check out my replys to Matt on the March 3 forum. There are four in a row.

    Shalom

37. Ruth Smith
    March 8th, 2010 @ 11:41 pm

    Okay, Erika, thanks for piling it on. LOL. Seriously, though, I’m glad to be reading and learning.

    While at my Dad’s doctor’s appointment, I read the section in Acts re: Peter’s vision.

    I see that there is no mention of any interpretation afterward re: literal killing and eating. It is all discussed later (at least in the Scripture) as metaphoric for the inclusion of the Gentiles, by God’s mercy, and I would say, cleansing of the Gentiles, and I would say, by Messiah Yeshua’s atonement. Though, He definitely (and primarily) came to atone for the sins of His people, the lost sheep of Israel, as He explained in a parable, the Kingdom of God is like a wedding feast…the ones invited did not come; and so the servant was sent to go out and invite everyone…[but although many are called, few are chosen.] Forgive me for not citing these well-known verses. Also the fact that in the vision, the voice told Him not to call what ‘God had cleansed’ unclean.

    The “killing and eating” terminology is one that is used in the Bible symbolically often enough…when Jesus told Peter He would make him a “fisher of men.” And there are other allusions to “eating” that are profoundly symbolic. Sometimes it is a consumation, a taking in… The eating of the scroll by the prophet Ezekiel…and also ‘My flesh is food and my blood is drink indeed’…etc…a hard saying…a Jewish (nonMessianic) friend tells me that passage is not something he can accept… Symbolic? Yes. Sustaining is the core feature, I believe — God as sustainer of life.

    Jesus always pushed out new frontiers; one of His more admirable traits. So like His Dad.

    So, I’ve been interpreting Peter’s vision in a literal sense having to do with food, as this is how I heard it expressed by someone. It’s possible this may be the verse which many Christians refer to regarding pork; this and those laws I only heard of recently, The Laws of Noah, which I haven’t read but will have to. I still have to finish up my study of Paul’s statements, however, regarding dietary law in the Messianic Gentile community.

    That’s all the time I had for Bible study today. My Dad has Alzheimer’s and I’m his caretaker, so I’m basically oncall 24/7; some days are especially challenging. But don’t let my slowness slow you down…. Wait a minute, slow down! I’m not through with the first couple of posts! No, let it out. I’ll get to it.

    AND THANK YOU !

    [happy emoticon]

    To Truth!

38. Ruth Smith
    March 8th, 2010 @ 11:51 pm

    Hi Bo,

    I just finished writing Erika that I’m not through with her earliest posts, but I will check yours out, too, as time permits & God willing. Thank you.

    This threshing process is beneficial.

    Peace to all ~

39. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 6:40 am

    Bo, I’ve allowed myself to just copy your main comment of these four comments you mentioned – here is it – you said:

    “I do not want to return to “pre-Messiah days”. I accept His sacrifice. Ezekiel plainly says that there will be a temple in the future and scrifices will be offered there. These sacrifices will be symbolic just as the former ones were.

    Revelation speaks of the everlasting gospel. Hebrews speaks of the gospel being preached to them (Israel at Mt. Sinai) as well as to us. David lived in relationship to Messiah before this earth witnessed the sacrifice of Y’shua. His sacrifice was promised by YHWH. That makes it a done deal even before we see it. That is what faith is. Abraham saw Y’shua’s day and rejoiced. Animal sacrifices have always been symbolic of the real sacrifice. I personally believe in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world to take away my sin, just like David and Abraham did.

    I think you are misrepresenting what people have posted by the comment, “Frankly, it sounds to me as if some people who claim to believe in Messiah, actually want to return to pre-Messiah days, as if He never actually came and died and rose again. ” It is pretty obvious that no one has said any such thing.”

    I personally don’t have any problem with this point of view.

    I think that a big blind spot in Christianity today is that we just don’t see that through Yeshua the world was created, through Yeshua the Israelites got delivered out of Egypt and through Yeshua the marriage covenant was made at mount Sinai. Yeshua came to fulfill His word – not to abolish it!

    In Isaiah 53:1 we read:

    “Who has believed our message?
    To whom has the arm of YHWH been revealed?”

    Yeshua is the arm of YHWH – and that is neither revealed to Jews nor to Christians.

    We can find a wonderful analogy to this in the New Testament, in Luke 10:38 – 41 and in John 11:1-44 : There we are told about Mary, Martha and Lazarus.

    In the passage in Luke we find Martha, the busy missionary laboring for Jesus and having a problem with Mary, who didn’t do or say anything, but just took the time to listen to the teacher.

    Then in the passage in John there is Martha again, calling Mary to Jesus believing in her mission, and of course knows that Lazarus (the fallen tabernacle of David) will raise again in heaven, but finds it impossible to imagine that he actually could raise right now.

40. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 7:37 am

    Ruth, it’s a pleasure to talk to you !

41. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 10:15 am

    Hi guys, was just reading through the discussion here great to see you are all learning from each other – one thing I’d like to comment on though;
    ” I accept His sacrifice. Ezekiel plainly says that there will be a temple in the future and scrifices will be offered there. These sacrifices will be symbolic just as the former ones were.

    Revelation speaks of the everlasting gospel. Hebrews speaks of the gospel being preached to them (Israel at Mt. Sinai) as well as to us. David lived in relationship to Messiah before this earth witnessed the sacrifice of Y’shua. His sacrifice was promised by YHWH. That makes it a done deal even before we see it. That is what faith is. Abraham saw Y’shua’s day and rejoiced. Animal sacrifices have always been symbolic of the real sacrifice. I personally believe in the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world to take away my sin, just like David and Abraham did.”
    –
    The main focus that worries me is: “Ezekiel plainly says that there will be a temple in the future and scrifices will be offered there. These sacrifices will be symbolic just as the former ones were.”

    I am just curious what part of Ezekiel speaks of a future temple and future sacrifice (after Messiah) ? Daniel plainly speaks of this issue of sacrifices and offerings in chapter 9 verse 24-27. I trust you’ll read that but to quote one part it says, “He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. ” To me, that is very clear and the obvious reading of the text. That is speaking of Messiah, (trusting you read the passage), so I don’t know why, (seeing as you believe the law or prophets is not abolished), why you would believe we would go back to making animal sacrifices after the perfect sacrifice has already been made, “once and for all”. (Heb. 10:1-10)

42. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 11:50 am

    I don’t want to answer for Bo here – just some thoughts on this.

    The passage you quote in Daniel – I always read it as a description of the Anti-Christ, who after bringing an end to sacrifice and offering, will declare himself as god and demand to be worshipped.

    I know that the book of Daniel is a highly discussed book – and I personally believe that there are three layers of fulfillment to this description – the last one yet to come. But I’m not an expert on this stuff.

    But supposed that it is a description of Yeshua and the destruction of the second Temple – well then it is an accurate description of what has happened – without a rating of it, no?

43. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 12:02 pm

    P.S. just to be clear: There is NO possibility of Yeshua and the Anti-Christ being the same of course!! We just have the problem here that it is difficult to make out any person and the number of persons that this text pertains to. Much revelation needed. I do know some people who have spent a great deal of time to study the book of Daniel – but I myself still need to do that.

    I do believe though that the most interesting part of the book of Daniel is yet to be fulfilled, since we read in Daniel 12:4

    “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to THE TIME OF THE END: many shall run back and forth, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    And Yeshua said in Matthew 24:15-16

    “When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

44. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

    Funny how different translations can be! In German it says in Daniel 12:4

    “And many will do research on it, and knowledge shall be increased”!

45. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 1:53 pm

    Eric,

    On the March 3 forum you wrote:

    “Bo, can you give me your interpretation on the following passage?
    Daniel 9
    24 “ Seventy weeks are determined
    For your people and for your holy city,
    To finish the transgression,
    To make an end of sins,
    To make reconciliation for iniquity,
    To bring in everlasting righteousness,
    To seal up vision and prophecy,
    And to anoint the Most Holy.
    25 “ Know therefore and understand,
    That from the going forth of the command
    To restore and build Jerusalem
    Until Messiah the Prince,
    There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
    The street shall be built again, and the wall,
    Even in troublesome times.
    26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
    Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to come
    Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
    But in the middle of the week
    He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
    Even until the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate.”
    *
    Can you share what animal sacrifices were made for, and also do can you explain what “He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. ” means?

    Eric,”

    My response:

    I do not exactly have an explanation but some of my ideas are as follows:

    If it is Messiah that causes the S&O’s to cease in the middle of the week after the 62 weeks, then that should have been in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel. He was crucified exactly at this time. But the temple offerings were still being offered for another 40 years and it appears that Paul was not opposed to participating himself to prove he upheld and taught the Torah.(Acts 21) The Roman invasion under Titus put a stop to the sacrifices and they have ceased even unto this day. Is Titus the abomination spoken of here that ends the offerings?

    We do not find any reference to the temple having been destroyed in the NT writings but I think Hebrews 8:13 (Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.) may be a prophetic statement that the temple, along with the S&O’s, is about ready to be destroyed. Hebrews 13:13-17 can also be seen as preparation for what was coming shortly. The whole book of Hebrews looks like an exhortation to be ready to remain faithful through the up coming ordeal and justification for doing and seeing things a bit differently than they were used to (dwelling in safety in Jerusalem with the temple serrvice continuing). We know from historical sources that the Messianic believers fled Jerusalem, like Messiah told them to, and were spared the horrors of what followed. They were also reproached by the Rabbinic Jews for not staying to fight.

    “Whoso readeth let him understand” in Matthew…might be a suggestion that even though there was already a fulfillment of the abomination that caused the sacrifices to cease back in Antiochus’s defilement of the alter and temple, that there was going to be at least one more fulfillment coming soon. The Dome of the Rock might be another one. There may yet be one just before Y’shua’s return.

    The above would point to the “abomination” causing the sacrifices to cease. There are probably a dozen other reasons to view it this way, but I am not the one to articulate them.

    On the other hand:
    If Daniel is referring to Y’shua causing, by His being cut off, the S&O’s to cease then there is a possible fulfillment that I can think of. There was darkness from the 6th hour to the 9th hour over the whole land when Y’shua was on the tree. This would have put the whole city into chaos. The evening sacrifice and the Passover lambs were supposed to be offered during this time frame. But maybe the only one to be offered at the right time that year was THE PASSOVER LAMB. The sacrifices might have ceased to have been offered that day, and been resumed either when the light came back or on the next day.

    Shalom

46. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 1:59 pm

    Eric,

    Ezekiel discribes the third temple and the sacrifices in chapters 40-46.

    Shalom

47. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:11 pm

    Okay, Ty for your answers. I am assuming you believe we should all be torah observant. We can’t keep certain laws if we tried to (this includes sacrifices), let alone the torah being fulfilled – now on the other hand the Prophets are not all fulfilled yet – but the law is fulfilled completely, 100% by Messiah.

    Do you agree the law is fulfilled? I am just curious, if it was possible would you still be sacrificing animals? Putting yourself completely under the torah would mean, you must obey all mitzvot. if not:
    Deuteronomy 27:26 says “‘Cursed is the one who does not confirm ALL the words of this law by observing them.’ ….”

    Which is not even possible today to obey ALL, so if you can’t obey ALL, you are in need of a Savior! So might as well just put all that trust in Messiah . “…we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.” Rom. 7:6.

    שלום עליכם Shalom Aleichem!

48. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:15 pm

    In Hebrews 12:26 – 28 we read

    “…but now he has promised, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heavens.” This phrase, “Yet once more,” signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. 12:28 Therefore, receiving a Kingdom that can’t be shaken, let us have grace, through which we serve God acceptably, with reverence and awe”.

    This shows us very clearly that all the Temple service points to a kingdom that can’t be shaken.

    This is the letter to the Hebrews. They knew the Temple service. That’s why they were ready to learn what it teaches us in Yahweh’s kingdom. Are we too ready for these lessons? No.

49. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:23 pm

    Eric – no, the law has not been fulfilled yet. Read Leviticus 23. Half of that chapter has not been fulfilled yet!

    The law gets fulfilled on a global scale and on an individual scale. The individual scale is described in Jeremiah 31:31-34 – it is in the process of being fulfilled right now.

    On the global scale only half of the law has been fulfilled already, as you can see in Leviticus 23.

50. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:35 pm

    Matthew 5:18-19

    “For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”

51. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm

    Eric,

    Have you ever read Deitrich Bonhoeffer’s “The Cost Of Discipleship”, specifically chapter 8 called The Righteousness of Christ?

    Here is a link where you can read a good portion of it.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ANfH1fmvBKIC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=bonhoeffer+the+law+jesus+refers+to&source=bl&ots=wmg8uc0EvR&sig=oazSpcrRgr8ycj9QRWS01bj2zjk&hl=en&ei=4gmUS6ylDYXkNa_NwJMN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    Let me know what you think.

    Shalom

52. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm

    Erika, that passage shows us that the law is not fulfilled yet? What about the verse before, which says;

    Matthew 5:17
    “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

    “Do not think that I came to destroy – - but to fulfill”.. We should be reading this as past tense right? Seeing how He already came?

    Blessings

53. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:48 pm

    Eric,

    That sure looks wild. Oh well, start reading at page 120. Enjoy!

    Shalom

54. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:51 pm

    Bo, thank you sir I will take a look at that – hopefully will try to get back to you once I do.

    God bless you both!

55. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm

    Yes Eric – again – read Leviticus 23. Only Yeshua fulfilled, fulfills and will fulfill it. That’s why according to Yeshua’s own words we are to teach and live the Torah until heaven and earth pass away.

56. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:53 pm

    God bless you too Eric

57. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:57 pm

    That is where we differ though Erika, I believe that the law is completely fulfilled. However I do not believe the Prophets are all fulfilled yet. I am not sure what you mean by Leviticus 23 not being fulfilled – maybe you can explain.

    If we are Torah observant, and study and know the Torah we know it points directly to Yeshua and I believe that is what He meant. If we teach about Him (being the law points to Him) we will be called the greatest, and if we do not – the least.

58. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 2:58 pm

    Thank you Erika (cool name by the way) lol. God bless you too!

59. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:02 pm

    Eric,

    Everybody has always needed a savior. I have no intention of “Putting myself completely under the torah.” I trust Y’shua’s sacrifice completely already. Here is something I posted a few days ago concerning Romans 7:6:

    “Ben,

    Dr. Michael Brown, in his book “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Volume 4” on page 257-258 quotes “The Jewish New Testament” and argues that these interpretations are plausible. He also indicates that Romans 7:1-4 means that we were once married to our sinful nature and now are joined to Messiah instead, and that this enables us to keep His commandments in “newness of the Spirit.” With this I agree.

    The JNT reads as follows:

    Romans 7:6
    But now we have been released from this aspect of Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.

    Galatians 2:19
    For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation so that I might live in a direct relationship with God.

    Romans 6:13
    For sin will not have authority over you; because you are not under legalism but under grace.

    I would also point out that the “newness of the spirit” contrasted with the “oldness of the letter” is basically another way of saying that the Torah has been placed in our hearts now instead of being only written down. The Spirit leads us into all truth and reminds us of the things that YHWH has said.

    Your translation reads:
    6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

    Sin is what used to control us. We have died to this master. If it was the law that controlled us we would have not been sinning. We don’t have to sin any longer. We can now, by the Spirit’s power, do the righteous commands of the law. We can fulfil the law if, and only if, we walk after the Spirit. If the old written code is the Torah it is righteous just and good not sin. Paul says this. It is the revelation of what is right to do. The old letter is not bad, as Paul explains, it is we who were bad. If we are to “go and sin no more” we must not break the law. John says that sin is the transgression of the law. James says that to him that knows to do good and does it not it is sin. Paul says that the law / commandments are good. Paul also says that faith does not make the law of no effect.

    Serving in the oldness of the letter is trying to be righteous before YHWH by keeping all the rules. Serving in the newness of the Spirit includes keeping the rules because we love Him and desire to please Him. Those in the flesh cannot please Him because they are not subject to the law of YHWH.

    Romans 8
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    Shalom

    What if I was a dish washer in my fathers restaurant and washed the dishes correctly every day and my motive for doing so was to be sure and get a pay check and/or not look bad to the other workers?

    On the other hand, What if my father decided to pay me in advance and I was grateful and continued to wash the dishes correctly? What if I wanted to please my father and make sure that no one would find one spot on those dishes so as to not tarnish my father’s reputation?

    On the third hand, What if my father decided to pay me in advance and I didn’t do the dishes correctly or didn’t show up for work but, in my new found freedom, I called in every day to tell him that I loved him?

    Which me was serving in the flesh?

    Which me was serving in newness of the spirit?

    Which me was deceived into thinking he was serving in the spirit but was still in the flesh?

    Shalom

60. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:04 pm

    Eric, Yeshua Himself is the Torah – the Word of God, as John says in his gospel. The second half of Leviticus 23 tells us about His coming again, about all Israel then being saved and about the Millennial Kingdom. From where do you think did Paul get all this info?
    Of course from the Torah! That’s why these books (the five books of Moses) are indeed fascinating!!

61. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:25 pm

    Bo, I’d rather not get into an argument over Daniel Stern’s translation, as I am sure that is the only translation you would find favoring with your perspective of the law.

    I don’t see how your analogy fits in with the Gospel, we do not earn salvation by works and God has never said we have the opportunity or chance to work for it. That is the beauty of the “free gift”, we can not earn it Bo. No matter how many hours we work in the restaurant.

    Erika, you do understand Sukkot has been observed for thousands of years right? I don’t think I fully understand the argument as far as that goes.

62. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:40 pm

    So Eric – do you believe that sin still exists?

    So what is sin?

    You’ll find the answer in 1.John 3:4

    “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

    Or as Paul says: Without law there is no sin. But if you believe that sin exists – John tells you what sin is: the transgression of the law.

    As for Leviticus 23 – I think that this DVD will give you more insight:

    https://secure2.convio.net/srmv/site/Ecommerce/1452867414?VIEW_PRODUCT=true&product_id=10681&store_id=1101

    God gave us His word for a reason.

63. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:42 pm

    I believe sin exists, yes and I believe the law exists? I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.

64. Erika
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:52 pm

    The thing I’m getting at here is that it is God who determines what sin is – that’s why He gave us His law – and we need to get it written on our hearts through Yeshua (Jeremiah 31:31-34)!

    It is not our pastor or our mother or our feeling or even the state we live in that determines what sin is – only Yahweh can do this – and He has done it!

65. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 3:55 pm

    I completely agree with you Erika.

66. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 4:35 pm

    Eric,

    My analogy breaks down as all do. The free gift that does not produce righteous behavior is the free gift that has not been received. The newness of the spirit produces righteous behavior.

    1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    “sin is the transgression of the law”
    “Let not sin(transgression of the law) therefore reign in your mortal body”
    “shall we sin(transgress the law), because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.”

    I only quoted the JNT because Dr. Brown did in his book. He evidently thinks it plausible. I do not use the JNT. I use the KJV. Actually there are many translations that have the same tenor as Sterns. I do not base my views on any of these tranlations, as I said I use the KJV. I study the context, the meanings of the words, and compare scripture with scripture to come up with my views.

    The version you used to quote Daniel does not exactly follow the KJV or other versions.

    KJV:
    26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Your Version:
    26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks
    Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to come
    Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
    But in the middle of the week
    He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

    HSCB:
    26 After those 62 weeks
    the Messiah will be cut off
    and will have nothing.
    The people of the coming prince
    will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    The end will come with a flood,
    and until the end there will be war;
    desolations are decreed.
    27 He will make a firm covenant
    with many for one week,
    but in the middle of the week
    he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
    And the abomination of desolation
    will be on a wing of the temple
    until the decreed destruction
    is poured out on the desolator.”

    The Message:
    26 After the sixty-two sevens, the Anointed Leader will be killed—the end of him. The city and Sanctuary will be laid in ruins by the army of the newly arriving leader. The end will come in a rush, like a flood. War will rage right up to the end, desolation the order of the day.
    27 “’Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances, but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.’”

    RSV:
    26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
    27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

    Any one of these may be as good as the others, but you could come away with very different ideas about who caused the sacrifices to cease and for how long.

    Is it “on the wing of the abominations”, “At the place of worship”, “on a wing of the temple “, or “for the overspreading of abominations “? Which one is the correct rendering? Really, the most common idea is that it is the AntiMessiah (The prince of the people that will come) that stops the sacrifices.

    If Y’shua stopped them why did they continue for 40 years? Why did Paul agree to join in? Are we sure that it is not for only half a week or 3 and a half years that they are stopped? In other words, this is a very difficult passage to understand and most people translate it according to their ideas and not necessarily word for word from the original.

    Josephus trys to show that tis passage was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes back in the time of the Maccabes. He eveidently thought that the scripture he was reading out of was speaking of a short period of time that they were stopped (3 1/2 years) by a bad guy not a Messiah.

    Shalom

67. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 4:45 pm

    Bo, I understand Israeli’s who did not receive the Messiah continued to make sacrifices, Paul is very explicit as to his reasoning,

    1 Corinthians 20:9
    “And to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law”

    He continues to say “I become all things to all men”, this is how I would interpret Acts 22.

    The main point I was making with Daniel 9 is “He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering”, I don’t see how else someone can read this without twisting the text.

68. Eric
    March 9th, 2010 @ 4:46 pm

    Sorry that is 1 Corinthians 9:20.

69. Ruth Smith
    March 9th, 2010 @ 5:51 pm

    Hi Erika!

    It’s a pleasure to study with you, also! As I mentioned, I’m still on your earliest post.

    However, I am a little puzzled by the verse in Mark 7:18. Three of my Bibles include the following:

    The Adventure Bible:
    “”Don’t you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him ‘unclean’? For it does not go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)”

    The King James Bible:
    “”Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? [and a translation is offered beneath which reads: "purifying all foods."]”

    The Jewish New Testament:
    “”So you too are without understanding? Don’t you see that nothing going into a person from outside can make him unclean: For it doesn’t go into his heart but into his stomach, and it passes out into the latrine.” (Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)”

    Hand-washing is evidently not all Rabbi Yeshua was referring to here — as the residue from an unwashed hand is not substantial enough to go into a person’s stomach and pass out into the toilet.

    I think that “cleanliness” as the Rabbi is referring to it, does not concern the outside at all, but the inside, or rather, spiritual cleanliness.

    Do you have a translation which does not include the parenthesis or translation which indicates purification of all foods?

    Certainly I agree that what we eat figures largely in our life. Of course, being Meditteranean people (whether under Torah law or as Gentiles), their diets would seem to be rather ideal: olives, goat cheeses, lentil stews, and the like. Simple, wholesome foods. Common sense as well as the knowledge about foods passed from generation to generation would have prevented them from consuming obviously harmful foods; and certainly we have more harmful foods available today than they had then.

    I’m interpreting this as being about foods as well as about hand-washing. The reference to the intestinal tract would indicate something more substantial than a bit of grit on the hands. Also, other scriptural references to “eating and drinking” by Sha’ul (Paul) indicate that this was a divisive issue and the non-washing of hands by Messiah’s disciples, while significant, was used more as a launching point to the more substantive point.

    I’m interpreting this that Torah rules regarding food and drink were not going to be something which could prevent a person from receiving the mercy of God.

    Certainly, God wrote the manual of health for the human body, and a person would be wise to follow it; however, not following it would not make a person “spiritually” unclean, as the spiritual body is not bound by the physical body.

    Certainly, as a person who am myself very affected by diet, I know that the brain and its perceptions are strongly influenced by what one eats: the brain can only derive its fuel (glycogen) from proteins. However, Jesus (Rabbi Yeshua) was going deeper into this issue. The issue was about “cleanliness” versus “uncleanliness,” and He was making the point that what goes into one’s heart (not the literal heart with its muscles, valves, etc.), but into one’s metaphoric “heart” — that is, his feeling-thought life — is what can make one unclean, not what goes into one’s stomach.

    Again, God wrote the manual on the human body; we are wise to follow His prescriptions. But the issue is about cleanliness in the spiritual sense. If Messianic Jews were considering Messianic Gentiles “unclean” based upon their diet, Yeshua is describing what can truly make one “unclean:” fornications, adulteries, murders, etc.

    Does your Bible include this translation at the end which all three of mine do?

    Thank you!
    Until later…

70. Ruth Smith
    March 9th, 2010 @ 6:21 pm

    The question remains, did this “do away with dietary (or Kosher) laws? Certainly not. They were written, they are wise, and they stand.

    However, Yeshua wanted people to focus on what really makes one clean or unclean (the weighier issues of the Law.)

    Therefore, it could be possible, for example, for a Gentile to be spiritually clean though not eating Kosher, and a Messianic Jew could possibly be eating Kosher, yet be spiritually unclean; because if the “heart” is unclean, then the person is spiritually unclean. His point was that we shouldn’t focus solely on the outside of the “cup,” but on the inside; ideally, both should be clean.

    Sort of like “her hands are dirty, but her thoughts are clean.” The converse would be, “Her hands are clean, but her thoughts are dirty.”

    I don’t quite subscribe to the idea, however, which some might have, that this made dietary laws null and void now. That is an extrapolation beyond the meaning, as I see it. Dietary laws are limited, however, in concerning physical things, to affect physical things. No amount of a “pure food diet” can make one pure before God. One can rigorously follow a “pure diet” and then rendevous with the married spouse of another. Ritualistic, outward observances, while fine and good, do not make one truly pure before God, who is Spirit.

    To be obedient to God, though, I believe one would want to follow His dietary laws as well as all His other laws concerning all aspects of what makes for a “pure life” before Him.

    But just as Mary having chosen “the better part” does not in turn now nullify the practical role which Martha plays, the contrastive comparison does, however, bring to light the most important part, or the priority, i.e., the weightier matter.

71. Ruth Smith
    March 9th, 2010 @ 6:28 pm

    Still chewing my way through the post; thank you sister!

72. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 7:15 pm

    Eric,

    Your Version with my comments in (…):

    26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks (434 years?)
    Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;(Messiah dies for us)
    And the people (Who, the Romans or Anti-messiah’s followers?) of the prince who is to come (Who, Titus or the Anti-Messiah?)
    Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
    (The Romans did this in the past)
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
    27 Then(after this destruction) he (Who, the prince who is to come or the Maessiah?) shall confirm a covenant(what is this if Messiah did it?) with many(who are these?) for one week;(7 Years?)
    But in the middle of the week (3.5 years?)
    He (Who,the prince who is to come or the Messiah?)shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (This happened in 70 AD not in 30 AD)And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

    My comments in (…) below:

    Acts 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed; they are all zealous for the law,
    21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or observe the customs.
    The rumor is that paul taught this. It is false)
    22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
    23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
    24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you but that you yourself live in observance of the law. (Paul does this to prove that this a false rumor and to show that he observes the Torah.)

    Now if what he was doing here is “to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews” he is being a hypocrite pretending that he thinks it is ok to do sacrifices. If He doesn’t really think that Torah is to be done he is also just going along for the show.

    Here is my take on 1 Cor. 9:20:

    1 Cor. 9
    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
    19 ¶ For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
    20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
    22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
    23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
    24 ¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
    25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Vs. 18″when I preach the gospel”
    Vs. 23″And this I do for the gospel’s sake”
    Vs. 27″lest that by any means, when I have preached to others”

    He is talking about how he preaches the gospel not being a chamaeleon. Look at these verses:

    1 Cor. 1
    21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
    22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
    23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

    1 Cor.2
    1 ¶ And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    So Paul changed his style to a best suit his audience but there is no record that he ate pork or took off his tassles. Here is his testimony:

    Acts 24
    14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
    15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
    16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

    Acts 25
    8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    Paul didn’t go against the law or teach against it.

    Shalom

73. Ruth Smith
    March 9th, 2010 @ 7:36 pm

    I mentioned Torah dietary laws in a way that equates them with “Kosher laws.” But I’m too unread on what makes something Kosher now. I can go to those relevant sections in the Torah to brush up on OT dietary laws, but I’ll have to google “Kosher” to see it in its current context…It may be that these have become very enlarged upon..if rabbinic habits are a clue…

    Personally, I don’t regard not boiling a kid in its mother’s milk [Deuteronomy 14:21, 2nd. para.] to be equivalent to combining cheese with meat. These are not the same to me. It’s obvious that boiling a kid goat in its mother’s milk is just too repugnant on many levels. Especially if it were a live goat, but even if not, it would be an irony which is also very sad to even think of, a kid goat having “innocent blood.” On its face, it presents a metaphoric picture which is contrary to the nurturing aspects of life, except perhaps to harder hearts.

    However, adding already-made cheese to already-prepared beef…I don’t see that as being the moral equivalent of the law in Deuteronomy.

    BUT I am open to discovering that I’m wrong…

    Respectfully

74. Dangerous Bo
    March 9th, 2010 @ 7:48 pm

    Ruth,

    Another translation is: “Do not ripen a kid on its mothers milk.” In connection to the first fruits offering it is saying to offer it before it is mature…don’t delay to obey the first fruit statute.

    Shalom

75. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 7:46 am

    Hi Ruth, I’m back again

    Thank you for taking the time and going through my posts. Now I think I’ll just quote some of what you have said and give you my take on it.

    First quote: You said

    “Certainly, God wrote the manual of health for the human body, and a person would be wise to follow it; however, not following it would not make a person “spiritually” unclean, as the spiritual body is not bound by the physical body.”

    Well, I think that God gave us all these rules in order to make a priestly kingdom out of us. Some would say now “No, God only wanted to make a priestly kingdom out of the Israelites – not out of everybody!”

    That is contrary to what Paul tells us in his letters – for example in

    Ephesians 2:14-16
    “For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, 2:15 having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; 2:16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby.”

    Paul says here that now that we have the law in our heart, our flesh is not hostile against the law anymore, and therefore the wall of partition is broken down between Jew and non-Jew.

    Or in Galatians 3:29
    “If you are Messiah’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to promise.”

    God wants to make a priestly kingdom out of those that follow Messiah. Now in the Temple service we can see that priests could be clean or unclean. Unclean priests were still priests, but had limitations in their service.

    Often we who follow Torah are accused of saying that we think this whole thing is a matter of salvation. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
    But this is what it is: It is a matter of how we can serve Yahweh. That’s the matter.

    I’m reminded again of Hosea 4:6

    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
    Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you,
    that you may be no priest to me.
    Because you have forgotten your God’s law,
    I will also forget your children.”

    Ruth, you said:

    “…as the spiritual body is not bound by the physical body.”

    Ruth, it is true that the physical body and the spiritual body are seperate enteties – but as long as we live in our physical bodies, our spirit will always be influenced by our bodies.
    That is why our food will influence our service to God.

    This connection between body and spirit will be annulled by our physical death. But as long as we live our food will always influence our spirit. Now Yeshua’s influence on the spirit can be more dominant than the influence of the food – but then we always will have a conflict between the food’s influence and Yeshua’s influence. With a little brains we should avoid that.

    Remember that the only rationale for the food laws that is mentioned in Leviticus 11:45

    “…You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.” This is not only about the physical body. How could Yeshua speak against His own father’s words in Mark 7:18? I suppose He didn’t.

    Besides that we cannot find any phrase in the whole New Testament that explicitly says that it is OK to eat pork. There is always a different context to these passages.

    It seems that back then no one found it necesary to discuss whether it was OK or not to eat pork. Only today it is such a big issue. Why? Because today we have ingested so much of Constantine’s gospel which is just not biblical.

    Next quote: You said

    “If Messianic Jews were considering Messianic Gentiles “unclean” based upon their diet, Yeshua is describing what can truly make one “unclean:” fornications, adulteries, murders, etc. Does your Bible include this translation at the end which all three of mine do?

    Yes it does – and this statement in itself is fine. As I’ve said already – the food laws are not about salvation, but about our spiritual Temple service.

    Now if we look back to the story of Cornelius, we see that the Jews said he was a righteous man living a righteous life. And we know that he was seeking the God of Israel. Hence it could well be that he was eating kosher even at that time when Peter visited him. And Peter was told that that what God had cleansed not to call unclean.

    Next quote:

    “Personally, I don’t regard not boiling a kid in its mother’s milk [Deuteronomy 14:21, 2nd. para.] to be equivalent to combining cheese with meat. These are not the same to me.”

    That is another whole subject.

    We Christians grew up with the misconception that Yeshua always got into conflict with the Pharisees, because the Pharisees were too Torah observant and didn’t pay enough attention to the heart – the weightier matters.

    That only in part is true. Where is the misconception? The misconception lies in the first part of the sentence. The conflicts Yeshua had with the Pharisees were NOT about God’s word – the Torah – but about the rabbi’s words – the oral law (“in the New Testament called “the tradition of the elders”).

    The Pharisees had invented Takanot and Ma’asim – rabbinical laws that anulled the word of God. The whole conflict was about “Who has the real authority – the rabbis or the Torah?” The rabbis came up with the concept of the “oral Torah” claiming that they had the power to change biblical law. That was the whole conflict between Yeshua and the rabbis – as Yeshua Himself also said:

    ” “Don’t think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”
    (Matthew 5:17-20)

    So back to the “not boiling a kid in its mother’s milk”. This practice goes back to an ancient pagan ritual – like putting up a Christmas tree for example. It was a fertility ritual made to idols/demons. That was what the Israelites should not do.
    That commandment was against mixed worship and not about diet.

    Here is a great link to more infos about this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_rdywZzP-s

    Nehemia Gordon explains here the difference between the Torah and Pharisaism. Nehemia Gordon himself is a karaite Jew (a Jew who does not accept the oral law).

76. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 8:00 am

    I have to correct myself: I said

    “Often we who follow Torah are accused of saying that we think…”

    Often it is difficult to find the right words, since we all have our special mind sets.

    I should have said

    “We who care about the Hebraic or original Roots of our faith…”

    since also those people can follow Torah in part who don’t care about diet, since Torah is the word of Yahweh/Yeshua that Yeshua came to fulfill. As I said before – the food laws are about our spiritual Temple service, not about our salvation (if we see salvation as a one time event and not as a process. I personally think it is both acutally).

77. Ruth Smith
    March 10th, 2010 @ 3:20 pm

    Dear Erika,

    I deeply appreciate all that you have shared, and am grateful for our discussions.

    Please read my posts more carefully, however, as you sometimes argue a point I have already agreed with you on.

    My house is a wreck right now, and so I must devote the next three days to cleaning it as I am preparing for Shabbat (Sabbath). Nothing elaborate, just making things tidy so that when it comes, I can enjoy it more fully. It will probably be Friday before I can respond again; but Bible study is perfectly in keeping with the spirit of Shabbat (Sabbath).

    I look forward to more discussions regarding the role of the Holy Spirit in the “royal priesthood” of the New Covenant, something we touched upon previously, but which ties into our current discussion. I know our current discussion is still in progress.

    Also, I’m not sure you addressed question about the “quote at the end” of each of those translations. You said “this is fine,” BUT that quote, which is itself a translation, actually uttterly disagrees with your position on dietary law, so please read that post more carefully.

    Thank you.

    May God Bless You and Keep You
    Shalom
    Peace, my dear sister

78. Ruth Smith
    March 10th, 2010 @ 3:29 pm

    To help you with what the above post is referring to, Erika, these are the quotes I’m referring to:

    Mark 7:18

    The Adventure Bible:
    ” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods “clean.”)”

    The King James Bible:
    “…purging all meats.” “T (for translation:) purifying all foods.”

    The Jewish New Testament:
    “(Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)”

    What I asked you earlier is: according to your version of the Bible (and I don’t know which one you’re using), DOES your version also have this quote at the end?

    And if so, what do you make of it?

    Thanks!

79. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 3:49 pm

    Oh, this is what you meant. I just read it now (Mark 7:18-23)

    No, I’m using the German “Schlachter”- translation (which is considered to be a quite accurate one) – and no, the phrase

    “(Thus he declared all foods ritually clean.)” does not appear there!

    In my Bible it says that the natural way out of the body (our intestines) purges all foods.

    This is what I make of it: If we eat some dirt like bacteria or viruses, but otherwise healthy (no junk food) our body is able to get rid of these germs.

80. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 4:10 pm

    So the germs are not the food and therefore are purged out of the food by our immune system – to say it in modern terms

81. Dangerous Bo
    March 10th, 2010 @ 5:48 pm

    I know that there are some Greek manuscripts that do not have this part in them. My take is that it does not matter because not all things (pig, bats, jelly fish, worms, etc.) are food. Y’shua declared all “food” clean not anything we might happen to be tempted to put in our mouths. If the parenthetical statement was added by a Greek copyist or a commentator then it is not quite scripture.

    Shalom

82. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 5:59 pm

    So have a great weekend dear Ruth ! I wish you much strenght in everything you have to take care of!

    Sometimes in my answers I did not talk directly to you, but rather in general, like for example when I said
    “We who care about the Hebraic or original Roots of our faith are often accused of saying that we think this whole thing is a matter of salvation”.
    This passage I was rather directing to Eric who also participated in this thread recently. I know that you did not do that Ruth
    I did get you in this regards

    An early Shabbat Shalom!!

83. Dangerous Bo
    March 10th, 2010 @ 6:01 pm

    Eric,

    I am wondering if you got my point earlier.

    If Paul participated in an offering that was done away with by Messiah he would be sinning. If Paul participated just to be “politically correct” he is a man pleaser. That he participated, means that he did not think that the sacrifices had been abolished by Messiah’s death. That he participated, shows everyone that he still keeps and teaches Torah. If he participated but actually did not keep and teach Torah, he is a hypocrite for that was the very reason he was asked to participate.

    Being all things to all men can’t be participating in sin (transgression of the law) with them either.

    Shalom

84. Erika
    March 10th, 2010 @ 6:54 pm

    Some more thoughts on this. In Matthew 15:1-20 we are told about this same event as in Mark 7:18-23

    In verse 20 we read then: “These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands doesn’t defile the man.”

    Here Yeshua says explicitly that it is the not washing of hands that is OK – nothing else in this regards.

    And if Yeshua indeed had declared all foods as clean (or that what WE think of as “food”)- why was Peter then so shocked in his vision about all the unclean food that he had seen on the roof of that house near the sea?

    And as I have outlined before – Peter himself explained later that this was a vision about people and not about food.

    And again – is it the “food” that lands in the toilet or is it the waste?? Why can food be purged by our intestines? And how can you purge pork from pork and make it thus clean??

    I suppose that back then the participants of these events didn’t even dream of the possibility that pork could be clean.

85. Dangerous Bo
    March 10th, 2010 @ 8:45 pm

    Shalom

86. Erika
    March 13th, 2010 @ 10:37 am

    Shabbat Shalom – in case someone might be disturbed by these facts.

    Why do I find it so important to address these things?

    Because we don’t have a lot more time to stay ignorant. Restoration HAS to come as we approach the Millennial Kingdom.

    The coming tribulation has one great goal: To restore all things. Midnight is ahead, and THIS is the time to prepare for all wise virgins.

    http://beholditcomes.blogspot.com/

    Who has ears to hear – let him hear!!

87. Ruth Smith
    March 13th, 2010 @ 1:26 pm

    Thanks for all you’ve shared!

    I found the link with Nehemia Gordon VERY interesting! I understand what was meant by “ritual hand washing” in Jesus’ day. I’m still stuck on the idea that so many translators felt the need to include the last statement I referred to. Of course, this is why many Gentile believers justify eating “swine’s flesh.”

    In any case, whether people eat it or not, and I personally find plenty of good reasons to avoid it, I think we should definitely not make this a point of alienation for people who are coming to Jesus. Jesus is the most attractive being for His teachings; and some of them require discipline; yet He is overwhelmingly an attractive being and has been for so many for so long. If I were discussing the swine’s flesh question with a believer, I would want to tread cautiously, but factually, and I would not want them to feel it was a stumblingblock…

    I appreciated other links I found to Nehemia Gordon — was heartened to hear him say that he was genuinely surprised to find that Yeshua upheld Torah. On the link you provided, it seems to contain more information, but there are only four parts. Do you know where the rest are?

    Thank you!

88. Ruth Smith
    March 13th, 2010 @ 1:34 pm

    I do think it is important to reassert, however, that while Jesus was yet in his body, the way he upheld the Law in spirit was different from the way the elders (the rabbinic “yeast” Jesus warned us of) followed it.

    AND, after his atonement (death) and ascension, things did indeed change. He inaugurated the New Covenant with His blood, the way that Moses inaugurated the Sinai Covenant with the blood of **relatively innocent** animal life. This changes, also, how we look at Torah post-Atonement. We can now spiritually discern which aspects we are still charged with, and which have been fulfilled forever.

    Still haven’t gotten to your new link. I will get to it all as time permits.

    Shabbat Shalom
    Sabbath Peace!!

89. Erika
    March 13th, 2010 @ 1:52 pm

    There is no reason to alienate people. All the Scriptures are written about Yeshua – the question is just whether we want to get to know Him or not. Soon He will come again – and this time as a King – not as a baby anymore. So it is time that we too grow up.

    http://www.waytozion.org/video/eddie/eddie.htm

90. Erika
    March 13th, 2010 @ 1:57 pm

    P.S.

    Ruth, I think that the youtube videos from Nehemia Gordon are taken from this DVD:

    http://www.michaelroodministries.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=ARA&Product_Code=D040&Category_Code=Video

    Shalom!

91. Ruth Smith
    March 13th, 2010 @ 8:22 pm

    Wow, Thanks for your links, Erika!

    Right now I am still studying with Eddie Chumney per the first link. Fascinating. I am following along with my Bible, so it’ll take some time.

    Again, thank you, Erika!

92. Ruth Smith
    March 13th, 2010 @ 8:23 pm

    And thanks for the new Nehemia Gordon link! I’ll be glad to get into that…

    Shabbat Shalom!!
    Happy Sabbath!!

93. Erika
    March 14th, 2010 @ 4:48 am

    Hope you had a good Shabbat, dear Ruth!!

    These materials have also been a great blessing to me – so I’m glad to pass them on

    Shalom!

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