November 5, 2009
Calvinism vs. Arminianism – Part 2
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The European Union, a “Transsexual” Jesus Play, and “Emergent” Jews
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Dr. Brown,
I was delighted to see your program on Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I listened to the 11/4/09 archived program and listened live today.
Over the past 2 weeks I was involved in a friendly, though spirited, email debate with a friend and his pastor friend over this very subject. I was forced to dig deep and look for Biblical answers. I found Robert Shank’s book “Elect in the Son” to be very helpful.
The primary verse my freinds quoted was Romans 9:16 – “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.” I countered with Romans 11:23 “For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.”
Could you spend some time in your upcoming debate(s) on the following 2 issues:
1) Where the faith to believe comes from. (I see it coming through the preaching of the Word (Rom 10:17); but the “seed” of the Word is only fruitful based on the condition of the heart.)
2) Is grace irresistable? Or more specifically: is there “common grace” that can be resisted vs. “redemptive grace” that is irresistable? (Calvinist often brush aside verses about “resisting the Holy Ghost” with this line of reasoning.)
I can hardly wait to hear the future debate(s) you have planned!
Blessings!
Patrick Robinson
Lock Haven, PA
Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
If we are believers, we are currently in paradise with Him
Luke 16:19-26.. “.. a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.”
We cannot be removed from paradise.
The third fruit of the Holy Spirit is peace. If you think you can lose your salvation or you believe that you do not have free will to choose Christ, then you could not have peace.
Acts 13:48,
This seems to be the clincher for most Calvinists. Yet what they Fail to realize is that the greek word for Appointed can also mean Disposed…
Yet Regardless if one believes that said word must mean appointed or not, this hardly pokes holes in the understanding of the Non-Calvinist. God has Elected whom he has Foreknown. In other words nothing you do is going to surprise God. He knows Who will Respond to his call and who will not, and he has known this from the foundation of the world. So acts 13:48 Hardly Leads one to the conclusion that unconditional election is true as one Can be Elected due to foreknowledge and appointed due to foreknowledge.
As for the Word foreknowledge, Even if it has the connotation of an intimante Foreknowledge, It still Does not Show us that God Draws through Irresistable Grace. But rather shows us that God Foreknows all things intamantley. So Whom God Foreknows He predestines to be conformed to the Image of his son…etc etc In other words All your actions are foreknown, God Draws All Just as Scripture tells us (”If I be Lifted up I will draw ALL unto me”).
Tom,
Thanks for posting your thoughts. Interestingly, I had far more peace as an Arminian, with no fear of losing my salvation, than as a Calvinist, wanting to guard against complacency! To this day, as a non-Calvinist, I haven’t the slightest thought of losing my salvation, since I rest assured in God’s promises and my desire is to live for Him.
I don’t intend to post a lot here on this topic right now, but I certainly encourage others to do so, and once we get into major shows about this, I’m sure a healthy debate will continue here, and I very much respect the views of all those who love the Lord and who take the Scriptures seriously. Thanks again for your comments.
Tom said:
“If we are believers, we are currently in paradise with Him. Luke 16:19-26.. “.. a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to pass over from here to you cannot; neither can those from there cross over to us.” We cannot be removed from paradise.”
I guess Tom is using the internet from heaven.
Question for the OSAS (Once saved always saved) supporters:
How do you respond to Rom 11:11-24
“17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. ” Rom 11:17-21
Amen Ben!
God knows everything but we don’t. We don’t know if tomorrow will happen something that will shake our faith. Ask the Lord if Peter really don’t meant “I will never deny you” “though I should die with thee” (Mat 26:33-35), of course Peter don’t loose his salvation ’cause he repent and “the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance”. But we shouldn’t ignore His voice that say “harden not your hearts”
So let us have faith and seek God everyday. We ought to live with a holy fear of the Lord, and repent from those things that pollute us.
God bless you brothers and sisters
Let’s try to stay away from bringing up ad-hominem, shall we? For every personal testimony of Arminianism I can give you two examples of Arminians who became Universalists because they couldn’t comprehend the justice of a holy and righteous God. Ultimately, what matters is what the text of scripture says.
Rob S.,
You make quite a statement here.
I have known tens of thousands of Arminians through the years, and I do not remember hearing a single testimony of any of them becoming Universalists, yet you are claiming that, based on your own experience, you know many such people. While I absolutely agree that the ultimate question is, What does the Bible say?, I’m curious to hear support for your statement. Are you sure you didn’t engage in some hyperbole here?
Sovereignty:
I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
Prior to Salvation:
Can a dead man resurrect himself ?
Can a blind man give himself sight ?
We are completely dependent on the grace of God and nothing else.
———-
I also see a recurring theme about God “twisting-arms”.
Examine Jeremiah:
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew [a] you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Rob says:
“Let’s try to stay away from bringing up ad-hominem, shall we? For every personal testimony of Arminianism I can give you two examples of Arminians who became Universalists because they couldn’t comprehend the justice of a holy and righteous God. Ultimately, what matters is what the text of scripture says.”
Whats your point? There are those that can testify that some Calvinist became atheist. Do I assume that their theology lead them to that direction? Of course not. Please support your argument with Scripture instead of “testimonies”.
Dr. Brown:
My point was to say that philosophical objections and testimonies do not solve theological matters. I’m very careful not to object to what I perceive to be philosophical problems with Arminianism, but I have noticed that this tends not to be reciprocated.
As for Arminians who slide into Universalism, it has been my experience that members of the Emergent church have a strong tendency to deny foundational truths and believe strongly in free-will.
As for a prominent example of this: An Arminian Pentecostal leader by the name of Carlton Pearson came to deny the existence of Hell based on its philosophical implications for free-will (blind-spots in missions causing damnation to non-Christians who suffer and die from starvation). He is now a proponent of full-fledged Universalism.
(http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?sched=1273)
Forum debates have a degree of vanity to them, as our friend who is involved in debating Zvi would testify. My challenge to my Arminian friends is to do justice to the theme of election in the Bible. Who are the elect?
Argh, misplaced modifier! Mr. Pearson is not an example of an Emergent, obviously. I meant to say that he was an example of an Arminiam who embraced Universalism.
Rob S. said
“My challenge to my Arminian friends is to do justice to the theme of election in the Bible. Who are the elect?”
I would say that the Elect One is the Lord Jesus Christ himself, and those who come to G-d through the condition of faith enter into that election; hence, they become the elect. Paul so stated that “Just as He chose us IN HIM before the foundation of the world…” (Ephesians 1:4). I would also like to state that if people are the elect “before” believing in Jesus, then that would conclude that salvation comes another way.
Shalom,
Brian
I openly challenge the doctrine of limited atonement in declaring that it is contrary to the fundamental teaching of Scripture. To believe that G-d chooses few to be saved, and purposely predestines most people to go to hell for His good pleasure is a fallacy to be rejected. This doctrine of an unconditional eternal reprobation destroys the whole purpose as to why Jesus died on the cross for mankind. This concept also besmirches the heart of G-d, the wonder of His grace and denies the work of the Holy Spirit. Paul, the apostle, was very clear in pointing out the universal scope of both the cross and G-d’s saving grace as made available to “all” who would be willing to receive. Please note the following verses:
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of G-d our Savior, WHO DESIRES ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one G-d and one Mediator between G-d and men, the man Christ Jesus, WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL…” (1 Timothy 2:3-6).
“FOR THE GRACE OF GOD THAT BRINGS SALVATION HAS APPEARED TO ALL MEN, teaching us that, denying ungodliness, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present age…” (Titus 2:11-12).
John declared:
“And He Himself (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE WHOLE WORLD” (1 John 2:2).
Peter wrote:
“The Lord is not slack concerning His promise… but is longsuffering toward us, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SOULD COME TO REPENTANCE” (2 Peter 3:9).
It is here that we see an apostolic consistency in declaring that the scope of the cross of Christ is sufficient to save all who would believe. We also see that G-d’s will is not to save a few, but that He would have all people come to the saving knowledge of His Son. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked; hence, it is a distortion of scriptural exegesis to conclude that He unconditionally elects and predestines people to reprobation – without them having the ability (enabling grace) to repent – simply because it gives Him pleasure to do so.
“For G-d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
Shalom
Rob S.,
From everything I understand about Carlton Pearson, his fall into heresy was not a fruit of being an Arminian. In any case, my point stands about the exaggerated nature of your statement, but I totally concur with you that the only real issue is: What does the Word of God say?
John 5:40 But you are not WILLING to come to Me that you may have life.
May Yeshua bless you and keep you.