November 10, 2009
Liberty from Sin, Not to Sin
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Why I Am Not a Calvinist – Part 2
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In the context of which I meant, I meant a person who was perhaps a fervent christian but slips into some sort of habitual sin or lukewarm state of zealousness whilst they are a christian. An example of this would be a pastor who has a porn habit that he hates and is fighting, he is a christian yes but is in sin of which he must definitely repent of.
As for Judas, well it would seem to me that none of the apostle’s of Christ were saved in the sense that I think u mean prior to Messiah’s death and resurrection. They only received the indwelling presence of the Spirit after Christ’s resurrection and so were only born again at that point so I would say thats when they were saved in the sense that all other christians know to experience. As for their discipleship experience with Jesus before the death and resurrection I think that was real. And it is possible that Judas may have learned but never understood or believed what Jesus taught them all.
Jesus for example talked of how none that were his and given into his hand by the Father were lost, except the son of destruction [Judas Iscariot] in order that the word of God may be fulfilled. That should be in John 17.
Mwiya,
Scripture verifies that Jesus sent out His disciples with His authority to cast out demons and heal the sick in His name (Matt 10). We would agree that Scripture only indicates Christ gave His authority only to those who believe Him. This would lead to conclusion that Christ would not give unbelievers (non followers of Christ) His authority to perform these spiritual activities. If you confirm that Judas was not truly a follower of Christ, then it would contradict your previous statment that only those who are truly followers of Christ can cast out demons.
I wanted to clarify my statement/question above:
If you say:
1) Judas was not a true follower of Christ from the beginning.
2) The authority to cast out demons are only given to true followers of Christ (ex matt 10) which concludes that unbelievers do not have the authority from Christ.
Question is:
How did Judas get the authority to cast out demons if Judas was considered not to be a true follower of Christ from the beginning.
Matt 10:1
“He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.”
Ben,
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Matt 7:21-22
Christ never knew them, yet they cast out demons. It seems to me that unbelievers can cast out demons.
I should probably qualify unbelievers as unsaved. They clearly believed something about Christ, but they were not saved.
Ben,
I tried to answer as best as I could to the best of my knowledge. I guess some stuff is beyond me and seems paradoxical. Unbelievers casting out demons by believing in the authority of Christ and yet not truly believing in Him. I guess its all about how genuine one’s faith is. As Jesus said those who love Him do His Word and so if we claim faith and yet deny Him by our works I guess it shows where God’s heart really is. Keeping his word and loving Him is of more importance than miracle working.
Mwiya,
Keep in mind that in John 17:11, Jesus is praying for the Father to protect his disciples. Why would he pray for their protection? In verse 12, he said “none HAS BEEN lost”, not “none WILL BE lost”. So he is praying for them. In verse 17, he asks the Father to “sanctify them by the truth”. Sanctification is a continual process.
Nathaniel,
Based on the Scripture you pointed out, I agree it’s possible that demons could be casted out by unbelievers just by speaking Jesus’ name. These people were probably doing it all for show and praise from men. At the same time, Jesus chose Judas to be a disciple, and Judas betrayed him. Judas allowed his own greed to overcome his dedication to Jesus. Jesus said it would have been better if he had not been born, and John 17:12 says that none of the disciples had been lost except Judas.
Another interesting verse:
2 Peter 2
“17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
Nathaniel,
An unbeliever cannot perform these spiritual activities unless he/she has true faith.
Mark 16:16,17 says:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons…”
Matt 7:22-24 does not clearly state the individual was an unbeliever from the beginning. If you read about other examples from Scripture about casting out demons and healing the sick in His name, they were all believers. Scripture doesnt support that an unbeliever can perform these spiritual activities in His name.
Mwiya,
You mentioned “I guess its all about how genuine one’s faith is. As Jesus said those who love Him do His Word and so if we claim faith and yet deny Him by our works I guess it shows where God’s heart really is. Keeping his word and loving Him is of more importance than miracle working.”
I agree too that one who has true faith will have the evidence by their works but why exclude casting out demons and healing the sick in His name?
Ben,
I think that a true believer can by the power of the Holy Spirit and in the authority of God and His Messiah, cast out demons, heal the sick, raise the dead and cast mountains into seas. This however is dependent on the believer having trust in God and his sovereign power over creation as he is the one working the miracle. It is by the finger of God so to speak.
That said, I’m not really going to say unbelievers can do the same as I think that would be a paradox. That said, what would you say about the faith of Balam?
Acts 19:13-15 says
“Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We[a] exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”
Mwiya,
Please provide the passage
“I’m not really going to say unbelievers can do the same as I think that would be a paradox”
Mwiya,
I agree its a paradox to say unbelievers can do the same. There is no Scriptural support to conclude unbelievers/unsaved can perform these spiritual activities in His name.
Mark 9:38-41
“Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our[c] side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Ben,
Jesus says to them, “I NEVER knew you.” Don’t you think that implies that they were never saved to begin with?
Nathaniel,
Ezekiel 18:24
“But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.”
Ezekiel 33:13
“If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done.”
Rom 11:17-24
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
Great discussion, guys. Thanks for all the excellent posts.
Re: “I never knew you,” that was actually a Jewish formula for excommunication that was probably current in Jesus’ day, so it could well be referring to people who once were in the Lord — and doing miracles — but who had fallen away and were now being forever rejected.
Nathaniel,
As I mentioned this passage previously, Mark 9:38-40 says
“Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side.”
Jesus concludes that only followers of Christ can only cast out demons in His name.
I meant to say on my previous post “Jesus concludes that only followers of Christ can cast out demons in His name.”
Dr. Brown,
That’s definitely a possibility. Do you know of any good sources that discuss that? Thanks!
Ben,
Just because they believed and they followed for some time does not mean they are converted. In Judas’ case, he was never converted. Your quotations of Ezekiel are just illustrative that God is just. A righteous man who does evil will be punished, but there are none righteous except Christ. I do evil all the time, and my righteousness is Christ’s righteousness imputed to me. As Christians, being in Christ produces good fruit. Through faith we do good works. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, nothing can pluck us from his hand, nothing can separate us from his love, God’s elect will persevere until the end.
Romans 11, being elect does not mean we can continue in unbelief. It’s unbelief, by the hardening of God, that caused God to break the Jews off of the olive tree and unbelief would do the same for us. I don’t have any problems with that.
One last thing, I do not believe in “easy believism”, that is making a decision saves you. There are many people who profess faith but are not regenerated. For the Christian, belief and repentance come immediately after regeneration. It is a regenerational decision not a decisional regeneration. We, who were chosen from the foundation of the world, must persevere to the end.
Nathaniel,
When I have time, Ill will get back to you later on your response. But in the mean time, how to do you respond to Mark 9:38-40.
Is this debate over permitting Free will or Presumption on the part of Father God as to his interface with believers? We usually associate free will with Christian liberty, which involves the free choice to practice all that Christ commanded. We usually associate presumption with arrogance, about which the attributes of God do not apply.
Ben,
I don’t think Mark 9 is clear on whether the people casting out demons are saved or not. Like I said, there are people who follow Christ for a while but then fall away because they are not regenerate. In this passage, Jesus doesn’t really indicate the state of those who are doing those mighty deeds in his name. He talks about the disciples belonging to Christ, but he doesn’t say anything about those performing the miracles. He says he who is not against us is for us, but that doesn’t mean that person is saved.
Dr. Brown raises a very interesting point. With the jewish thought of the day “I never knew you” representing God’s excommunication of a previous believer, this would quite possibly explain why those who had the ability to cast out demons as previous believers were now rejected by Jesus because of their eventually falling away for good. The point here is that those who may have actually cast out demons or prophesied in Jesus’ name ended up rejecting him in the end, despite having a brief time of belief in him.
Nathaniel,
Craig Keener gives the relevant rabbinic sources re: the excommunication formula in his full-length Matthew commentary (they are not listed in his Bible Background Commentary).
Michael,
Remember Jesus condemns them because they are workers of lawlessness. To say that they were condemned after believing for a short time I think is reading too much into the text. Jesus at this point has been saying that one good work doesn’t excuse a multitude of bad works. He demands perfection. One who reads through Matthew would quickly realize how they fall very short of God’s standard, and how desperately they need a savior.
Dr. Brown,
Thanks, I’ll take a look at that.
I just wanted to add in that as I first became a believer when I had no room for theological bias, I read through the whole Bible and never even thought of predestination as a possibility, let alone double predestination. I think Dr. Brown mentioned that he needed to be taught about a pretribulation rapture and the same is true for me concerning predestination and the Calvinist position. Just thought I’d throw my lot in.
Kyle, you are not the only one to make that observation. That being said, I’m Armenian and pre-trib. I didn’t understand post-trib until Dr. Brown explained it.
I still don’t understand post-mil!
Happy Thanksgiving everybody.
Nathaniel,
Before I continue on with my other responses, do you have any other Scriptural support (besides attempting to use Judas) that God will give His authority to unbelievers to cast out demons in His name.
To everyone else, Happy Thanksgiving!
Ben,
Define “believer”. I’ve already said you can follow Jesus and not be saved. You can believe Jesus and not be saved. Salvation is more than just “I believe”. It involves regeneration, justification, sanctification (which includes producing good works), perseverance, glorification, etc. God has allowed people to taste Salvation but never swallow (Heb 6), and in that it is possible that God has allowed them the ability to cast out demons. That being said, one more thing comes to mind.
We have many instances from Pharaoh’s magicians to the girl who
had divination power in Acts. Jesus says
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” -Matt 24:23-24
Not only is this further proof that the elect are safe in Christ, but also is proof that unsaved people can do mighty works. My question would be why wouldn’t they be allowed to cast out demons? Surely that would enable Satan to deceive more people. When Jesus cast out demons, he did it against the purposes of Satan. But when Satan does it, he would do it to further his purposes.
Could you tell me why this is important for what we’re talking about again?
Nathaniel,
Not to get too technical for now, but here’s how it will sum up:
Believer = saved (true follower of Christ)
Unbeliever = unsaved (unclean, unrepentant, spiritually blind, etc)
Only the saved, those who are truly in Christ, are given the authority to cast out demons in His name. You verify in your previous statements that the unsaved can cast out demons too in His name. I have provided a couple of passages to support that only those who are truly saved are given by Christ His authority to cast out demons in His name. I am asking if you can provide more passages from Scripture to support that Christ also gives His authority to the unsaved to cast out demons in His name. Also, please explain and provide Scripture why Christ would give His authority to the unbeliever to cast out demons in His name.
Nathaniel,
Matt 24 does not support that the unsaved can cast out demons. This would contradict Mark 9:38-41 because they are false christ and false prophets who are against Him
“Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our[c] side. For whoever gives you a cup of water to drink in My name, because you belong to Christ, assuredly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward.
Dr. Brown has a solid teaching about this on the prophetic/prophets. I hope Dr. Brown can add his thoughts in this if he has the chance.
You mentioned “Not only is this further proof that the elect are safe in Christ, but also is proof that unsaved people can do mighty works. My question would be why wouldn’t they be allowed to cast out demons? Surely that would enable Satan to deceive more people. When Jesus cast out demons, he did it against the purposes of Satan. But when Satan does it, he would do it to further his purposes.”
Matt 12 says:
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see. 23All the people were astonished and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” 24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebub,[d] the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.” 25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand. 26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? 27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges. 28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Ben,
I’ve already provided you with some examples. I’ve also told you what I think may happen, namely that those who claim to be saved by making an outward profession of belief may be given the ability for a short time. As to why they are given that power, who has known the mind of the Lord? He would have his reasons in allowing an unsaved person to cast out demons. There’s not really a robust theology of casting out demons in the Bible. That doesn’t mean it’s not important, it just means that we can’t make as many statements about casting out demons than we can for something like justification.
If you disagree with me, you should probably make your point, and I’ll comment on it.
Ben,
I guess we’re just going to have to disagree. I’m familiar with those verses, and I made point while considering them. Again, I’m not sure how relevant this is to the discussion.
Dr Brown:
I think there could be people that once were saved and received the Holy Spirit but then backslide to the point that the Lord will reject them but still work miracles cause they have gifts of the Spirit but the Spirit have left their temples (bodies); I know of people in my country that live in the streets because of the bondage of drugs that once were in the Lord and received the gifts of the Spirit and when some groups go to outreach and pray they speaks in tongues but not repent. There’s a big different between the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit; between God and his blessings and between anointing and holiness.
Nathaniel,
It goes down to who Jesus talking about in Matt 7:22-24
22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Was it the unbeliever/unsaved or backslider (used to be saved)? In the context of driving out demons in His name, how can an unsaved person cast out a demon in His name? Does the Scripture faithfully support this position? Or was this person a backslider? Was he/she a person who faithfully followed Christ, repented and washed by His blood but later down the road of his life turned away from Him. Would it be possible that this passage along with the other passages support that a saved person can truly lose his salvation at the end. The question is, how does the OSAS supporters answer this passage of the Bible. This passage of scripture is in harmony with other passages about those who cast out demons in His name were true followers of Christ.
Previously you brought up Matt 24
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.” -Matt 24:23-24
You said “Not only is this further proof that the elect are safe in Christ…” Did you read verse 24 “… if possible, even the elect” ? The characteristic of false prophets are those that lead others, even the elect to worship another god. They are lead astray away from Christ, even the elect.
You mentioned “We have many instances from Pharaoh’s magicians to the girl who had divination power in Acts.” The questions is, where is this power comming from? Is it from the Spirit of God or is it from a different spirit?
Acts 16
17This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” 18She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.
Scripture is very clear when casting out a demon, the authority is given from God. Only faithful followers of Christ can cast evil spirits out in His name.
Mark 9:38-41
“Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side.
Mark 16:16,17 says:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons…”
An unbeliever cannot cast out a demon in His name which would contradict the two passages above. Matt 7:22-24 would be in harmony with those two passage to conclude that a true follower of Christ can fall away and that a person who was not truly saved from the beginning cannot fit this passage. The OSAS can be presented all over again but the question goes back, can the OSAS supporters answer “Would God ever give His holy authority to an unsaved, spiritually blind person to cast out a demon in His name”
Ben,
First, I’m not OSAS. I actually don’t like that term. I prefer Once Saved, Always Persevere. I’ve tried to make this clear. The elect must persevere, if they did not persevere they are not elect.
Second, because something is done in the name of Jesus, doesn’t mean that person is saved. So things like casting out demons in his name doesn’t necessitate that the person is saved.
Third, Matt. 24 says, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect. Meaning they would try to deceive them, but it’s not possible.
I’m still unconvinced. Like I said, there’s not a robust doctrine of casting out demons in Scripture, and I don’t think it can be used against the doctrine of perseverance.
Strong’s Number: g1415 Greek: dunatos
Possible:
“strong, mighty, powerful, able (to do),” in its neuter form signifies “possible,” Mat 19:26; 24:24; 26:39; Mar 9:23; 10:27; 13:22; 14:35, 36; Luk 18:27; Act 2:24; 20:16 (27:39, in some mss.; dunamai, “to be able,” in the most authentic, RV, “they could”); Rom 12:18; Gal 4:15. See ABLE.
“Second, because something is done in the name of Jesus, doesn’t mean that person is saved. So things like casting out demons in his name doesn’t necessitate that the person is saved. ”
Mark 16:16,17 says:
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons…”
Strong’s Number: g4100 Greek: pisteuo
Belief, Believe, Believers:
“to believe,” also “to be persuaded of,” and hence, “to place confidence in, to trust,” signifies, in this sense of the word, reliance upon, not mere credence. It is most frequent in the writings of the Apostle John, especially the Gospel. He does not use the noun (see below). For the Lord’s first use of the verb, see Jhn 1:50. Of the writers of the Gospels, Matthew uses the verb ten times, Mark ten, Luke nine, John ninety-nine. In Act 5:14 the present participle of the verb is translated “believers.”
“Third, Matt. 24 says, IF POSSIBLE, even the elect. Meaning they would try to deceive them, but it’s not possible”
No where in the original language does it say “its not possible”
Matt24
11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Verse 12: love in the original language is agape. The love for God which refers to true believers in Christ. Verse 13 doesnt conclude all will be saved but concludes BUT those who endure to the end will be saved.
Also going back when you attempted to use Matt 7:22-24, I will refer back to Dr. Brown’s response:
Dr Michael L Brown says:
November 25, 2009 at 1:33 am
Re: “I never knew you,” that was actually a Jewish formula for excommunication that was probably current in Jesus’ day, so it could well be referring to people who once were in the Lord — and doing miracles — but who had fallen away and were now being forever rejected.
I have a question (yes it is linked to predestination). Here is the question, if the lives of two people were in peril and you had the power to save only one of them who would you save? These two person’s are unaware of the other’s situation and only are aware of their own peril though you are aware of both of their situation’s but can only pick one person. Each of them are in deep peril and yet you can save either one of them without any hindrance and with full assurance that the one you choose shall be in fact saved. But there is a catch, you deeply love one of the person’s in peril whilst you have no idea who the other person is. Who would you save? The stranger or the one you love?
I know this is not a perfect illustration of predestination, but remember what it says. “Jacob I have loved, Esau I hated..” [paraphrase]. And that was the case before either of them did right or wrong. Perhaps God saves those whom He loves and has chosen in Christ for His Name’s sake. Setting them apart to show his exceeding Grace and Love for Messiah’s sake.
Is there a link between knowing God and cleaving to Him? And if so is this linked to abiding in Him, His Word and His Love? Also i see abiding in His Word as starting from the point of first belief and conversion, as we obey the Gospel by Grace and believe and continue to abide in His Word and grow and produce fruit. The Spirit; and in the Spirit the Father and Son make their home in us when we believe and abide in Messiah and his Word. Now if Jesus says he never knew those whom he calls workers of iniquity, that implies they never did abide in His Word or cleave to Him. If so were they ever believers to begin with or was that just a claim of faith where non truly existed? Can there be faith without fruit? Can there be faith without works as James/ Jacob clearly put it in his epistle.
Nathaniel,
Are you 100% sure that you are one of the elect? I have a question for you if you say Yes or No, so either way, I have a follow up.
“Now if Jesus says he never knew those whom he calls workers of iniquity, that implies they never did abide in His Word or cleave to Him.”
Mwiya,
Then you would have to ask, can unbelievers/unsaved cast out demons in His name?
Mwiya,
I will again refer back to Dr. Browns response:
Dr Michael L Brown says:
November 25, 2009 at 1:33 am
Re: “I never knew you,” that was actually a Jewish formula for excommunication that was probably current in Jesus’ day, so it could well be referring to people who once were in the Lord — and doing miracles — but who had fallen away and were now being forever rejected.
Matt 7:23
“I never knew you…”
KNEW (Verb)
Strong’s Number: g1097
Greek: ginosko (γινώσκω)
Know, Known, Knowledge, Unknown:
Ginosko implies an active or ongoing relationship. This does not imply there was never a relationship from the start.
Ben,
Nice stuff, would you have an answer for the question I asked in my post (the one above the one about cleaving to the Lord etc).
Mwiya,
Ill get back to you on that later if I have the chance. I would like to keep the discussion rolling on OSAS or OSAP.
Mwiya
Going back to your question as you brought up Rom 9 “Jacob I approve, Esau I dissaprove”, the context of Rom 9-11 is about the promises God made for Israel.
If you dont believe Rom 9-11 is about Israel, then you may come from a background that supports that the church replaced Israel which is called Replacement Theology.
Dr. Brown or Ben KC,
What do you make of John 10:27-30?
“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”
“No one can snatch them out of my hand” seems to imply that a believer cannot lose their salvation.