November 10, 2009
Liberty from Sin, Not to Sin
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Why I Am Not a Calvinist – Part 2
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Chris,
“No one can snatch them out of my hand”
“No one” implies those outside of God’s hands cannot snatch you out. It doesnt imply to the one inside of God’s hand.
Strong’s Number: g726
Greek: harpazo
Verb
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away
Who is Jesus refering to when He said “No one can snatch them out of my hand”? He is refering about the thief:
“The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have [it] more abundantly.” John 10:10
Ben,
Why does he say, “No one” and not “The thief”? Also, you keep using Strong’s in defining words, but you do not explain why you do that. Could you provide an explanation of your use of Strong’s. Thanks.
Nathaniel,
When reading the begining of John 10:1-16, the author sets the scenario by explaining who is good and evil; Shepard and Thief. Because the scenario is SET, “no one” will be understood as the thief who does harm and the Shepard will be understood as the hand who provides protection.
The purpose of Strong is to confirm and give a detailed understanding. The use of the word “snatch” or harpazo in Scripture has been used in a manner of something/someone taking action upon something/someone else. I believe you will not find this word used in the NT in a manner of someone “snatching” themselves.
Harpazo (ἁρπάζω) used in the NT passages (ESV version):
Mat 11:12 “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force.
Mat 12:29 “Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
Mat 13:19 “When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path.
Jhn 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
Jhn 10:12 “He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Jhn 10:28 “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Jhn 10:29 “My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than
all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
Act 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
Act 23:10 And when the dissension became violent, the tribune, afraid that Paul would be torn to pieces by them, commanded the soldiers to go down and take him away from among them by force and bring him into the barracks.
2Cr 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven–whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2Cr 12:4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (NKJV)
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Jud 1:23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; to others show mercy with fear, hating even the garment stained by the flesh.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
Nathaniel,
The author could have used “The thief” instead of “No one” but sometimes they dont since the scenario has been set in the beginning of John 10.
Nathaniel,
Did you miss my question to you a few days back about your own assurance re: being one of the elect?
Please do respond so I can ask my follow-up question.
Thanks!
Dr. Brown,
It short, yes, I’m sure I’m elect because I’m sure I’m a Christian. Things like bearing fruit, repentance, loving my fellow Christian brother, etc. Peter tells us to, “be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble.” It seems like kind of an odd command (much akin to Phil 1:29), but God works through means, and his elect should possess certain characteristics and should obey what he commands. We have the responsibility as the elect to continue in what God has called us to (holiness, love, etc.). Continuing in these things and remembering God’s faithfulness increases our faith. Although we do not know the future, “we walk by faith and not by sight.” Knowing that God is faithful to keep us till the end.
I don’t think an Arminian questions whether or not he will endure until the end, how much more is the Calvinist assured (I’m talking in my own thinking. An Arminian is not in any more danger of losing his salvation than a Calvinist) of his perseverance?
So, just to be clear, since you are sure that you are a believer, and therefore one of the elect, is it impossible for you to backslide? Conversely, if you feel that it would be presumptuous to say that it would be impossible for you to backslide (since, I would expect, you know Calvinists who have fallen away from the Lord), can you rejoice in a present-tense, absolute assurance of your salvation? What, after all, if you’re not really one of the elect? How could you know that for sure before you die?
In my own experience, just for the record, I have had a deeper assurance of God’s promise to keep me to the end as an Arminian than a Calvinist, but that’s another matter.
Dr. Brown,
I’m not sure what you mean by backslide. It can be used in a variety of different ways. I think it’s possible for Christians to fall into certain sins. I think it’s possible for Christians to have periods of dryness or even to grow a little cold in their love for God, but God disciplines and draws back those who are his. I do not know any Calvinists who have fallen away, but I know there are some who have.
As an Arminian, there is no way to tell whether or not you will actually endure to the end. You have the same Bible and therefore have the same commands as Calvinists do. You and I would agree that we must bear fruit in keeping with repentance. I pray as I’m sure any Christian would, “Lord, keep me and give me strength to keep your commands.” I know that there I can do nothing on my own power, but I must rely on the tender mercy which drew me to himself. Through each doubt, temptation, or storm…my faith, my confidence in his faithfulness, and my knowledge of his love all grow stronger. I have no reason to doubt that I’m elect because I have no reason to doubt that I’m a Christian.
Nathaniel,
How to you respond to other extreme OSAS or OSAP supporters who believe no sin can cause them to lose their salvation. A couple of months ago, an individual in PA went on a rampage and killed many women at a gym and then shot himself at the end. This individual had a blog which confirmed his extreme OSAS / OSAP view.
Chris,
If you would permit me to chime in on your question addressed to Dr. Brown and Ben KC, I would like to address it. You asked, ” What do you make of John 10:27-30?… ‘No one can snatch them out of my hand’ seems to imply that a believer cannot lose their salvation.”
This N.T. passage is cited in the support of the doctrine of eternal security, and rightfully so. Jesus, in speaking to unbelieving Jews who said that he had a demon, contrasted those who were his and those people who weren’t. To have the promise that they will never perish, and that no one can snatch them out of his hand is a tremendous blessing to stand upon.
Any and every one of his sheep will hear the voice of God; are known by God; and will follow Him. These statements of truth were spoken by Jesus as qualifying factors given to those who will never perish or be snatched away from his hands, and should warrant considerable attention. I, too, am an advocate of eternal security – on the basis that one “will continue” to follow and believe on Him – something that is consistently affirmed by our Lord himself.
Contextually speaking, John 10 was not written to address the question of perseverance of the believer, or of the possibility of apostasy. The question of whether the sheep can continue in the faith or turn away is not addressed; hence, this particular subject matter cannot be directly answered in this passage. Jesus did, however, speak to believing Jews of the necessity of the continuance in the faith, thus positing the fact that eternal salvation is conditional, and not arbitrarily decided on by God alone without taking into account any factor that is in man. Please note the following:
Jesus said to those Jews WHICH BELIEVED on Him, IF you CONTINUE (abide) in My word, then you are my disciples indeed. (John 8:31)
Verily, verily, I say unto you, IF a man KEEP my saying, he shall never see death. (John 8:51)
It is here that Jesus clearly acknowledged that man is challenged to keep his word in order to obtain eternal life. The very fact that Jesus posited his statements with the “IF” clause reveals that each person has the free will to decide “not” to continue in, or keep his word it they so choose.
To say that we believe in eternal security is one thing, something that is affirmed in Scripture – but on what basis we believe this doctrine is purely another. Hence, the New Testament consistently substantiates the condition of obedience to salvation, and the possible peril of those who do not continue in the faith.
(John 3:36) He that believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not OBEY the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (NASB)
(Hebrews 5:9) And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation TO ALL WHO OBEY him.
Shalom,
Brian
Ben,
I think you put your finger on it. He had an extreme view of OSAS…it was not Biblical. He also had many other problems which is obvious.
Nathaniel,
There is quite a difference between the Arminian position and the Calvinist position in terms of assurance of salvation. Because I don’t believe that there is a predetermined “elect” group — and a predetermined non-elect group — I don’t base my assurance on being one of the elect. Rather, I base it on a host of Scriptures that proclaim God’s promises (if I put my trust in the Lord Jesus to save me from my sins, he will do that, etc.) and give me understanding as to how I can be sure of standing with God (including the witness of the Spirit and having a heart to keep God’s commandments), and I put my total trust in the one who promised to keep me and who assures me that no one can snatch me out of His hand. He who began the good work in me will bring it to completion. I have no doubt, no fear, no worry. I am safe and secure in the Lord’s hands! And what if, God forbid, I should decide to turn my back on Him and choose habitual sin or deny Him as Savior and Lord? Then I would lose all assurance — quite rightly!
For you, however, the ultimate proof that you are one of the elect is that you persevere until the end, and therefore, it is possible until your dying breath that you are actually a counterfeit believer, no matter how sincere you might be. Should you protest and tell me that I’m misinterpreting your faith, then we go back to where we started: If you are 100% sure that you are one of the elect, then it is impossible for you to turn away from the Lord (either in habitual, willful sin, such as that which is proscribed in 1 Cor 6; Gal 5; or Eph 5, among other passages; or in apostasy from the faith into another religion or atheism, etc.). Either way, you will either have the potential for lack of assurance (since you have not yet reached the end and you don’t want to be presumptuous) or the potential for complacency (based on your absolute certainty that you’re one of the elect, and therefore you cannot apostasize) — or else your assurance will be no different from that of an Arminian!
Your thoughts?
I think a KEY to understanding the sovereignty of God is to recognize the “two wills” of God expressed in Scripture. God expresses both a will of decree (which will always occur) and a prescriptive will (moral will – what he expects of us). They are obviously not the same. Here are some good references on the topic:
mp3 talk by Gene Cook: http://unchainedradio.com/freedownload/2willsmono.mp3
http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Providence–Gods-Will/The-Two-Wills-of-God/
Blessings in Messiah!
ThirdDay wrote:
“I think a KEY to understanding the sovereignty of God is to recognize the “two wills” of God expressed in Scripture. God expresses both a will of decree (which will always occur) and a prescriptive will (moral will – what he expects of us).”
I completely disagree with this claim: one does **not need** the “two wills doctrine” to understand the sovereignty of God.
And as a point of fact the vast majority of Christians throughout church history have not held or espoused the “two wills doctrine” of theological determinists.
The “two wills doctrine” of determinists is **not** something given by scripture but ***imposed upon*** scripture by theological determinists.
God’s sovereignty as defined by scripture is that He does as He pleases (e.g. Ps. 115:3 “But our God is in the heavens, He does whatever He pleases.”). This means that when he acts unilaterally, that no one stops him or prevents him from doing as He pleases in any given situation. Because He is sovereign, it is his right as God to design the world the way that he wants it to be (which for the non-Calvinist includes creating us with the capacity to have and make our own choices, to have free will). Within God’s sovereignty He also has the right to command us to do whatever He wants us to do. But when commands of other wills are involved, since obedience to these commands is not dependent upon God’s will alone (other wills are involved: people have to choose to obey and they can also choose to disobey) people may choose to obey or disobey these commands.
The theological determinist ***assuming*** that God has exhaustively predetermined every event (cause that is what their theological system and tradition [e.g. the Westminster Confession states it as “He ordaineth whatsoever comes to pass”) **dictates**) invented the “two wills doctrine” in which God has a secret will (known only to God), a total plan that encompasses every detail of history and which is always done (i.e. God has already predecided how every detail of history will take place, he has “decreed all that comes to pass”).
He then posits the moral will which is merely what the bible presents about what God “wants” or “desires” (and which can be rejected and frustrated).
The problem is that the secret will often ******CONTRADICTS****** the revealed will. For example, in the revealed will He commands us not to commit murder (but in the secret will every murder that occurs is predetermined and exactly what God wants to occur as he predetermined for it to occur in line with his secret total plan). Or take another example in the revealed will He commands us not to commit adultery (but in the secret will every act of adultery that occurs is predetermined and exactly what God wants to occur as he predetermined for it to occur in line with his secret total plan).
Put simply every sin and evil that occurs in this world, is ***exactly what God wants to occur*** as part of the secret will. This makes God the author of sin and does not help explain his sovereignty but instead unnecessarily complicates things and makes God will and desire things in his secret will that he supposedly hates and tells us to avoid in his revealed will.
The revealed will is swallowed up by a “secret will” if the two will doctrine were true, making the “revealed will” meaningless and useless (He says he does not like certain things and commands us not to do them, but then he predetermines for every single instance of evil to occur, He says one thing in the scripture but really wants something entirely different in real life).
God does not engage in these kinds of contradictions and we can fully trust that what he has in fact revealed (when properly interpreted) really **is** His will. We also do not need to speculate about the supposed “secret will or total plan”, because he has told us enough in the bible to live out obedience to Him in every area of our lives.
Robert
Dr Brown,
I dont think Nathaniel has denied that in order to persevere to the end one needs to cling to God. Perseverance unto the end itself means cleaving to Him. Believing that the elect of God do this does not mean one puts their assurance in the belief that they are the elect. No, the fact that they believe in God and cleave to Him and his promises and finish their race prooves that they are of the elect. They are called and elected and have shown their faith to be genuine only by the power of God who works through and in them for his own Glory. The conclusions are the same, the trains of thought aren’t and somewhere I think thats where the miscommunication is or maybe its be misunderstanding the argument completely?
“… the fact that they believe in God and cleave to Him and his promises and finish their race prooves that they are of the elect.”
We continue to believe and cleave to Him but we have not finished the race yet. With your statement above, you wouldnt know that you are one of the elect, correct?
Ben,
By the very fact that we are abiding the truth, that we love our brother, and we keep ourselves from idols. We know that we are elect. The very fact that we can do that means that God’s power and grace works in us to “will and do of God’s good pleasure.” It makes our election sure.
Based on Mwiya statement, he concluded “and finish their race prooves that they are of the elect.”
Did you finish your race?
Of course, if I passed away to be with Jesus, Mwiya’s statement would confirm my situation. But since we all have not finished our race, I would request Mwiya to rewrite who the elect are or explain/clarify the statement.
Ben,
To make a long story short. You shall know them by the fruit. If the fruit of the Spirit are present then so is the Spirit, and if the Spirit is present that person belongs to Christ and is firmly in His hand. Nothing on earth, in heaven or under earth can take that person from Messiah. Their fruit says it all.
The elect are those who are called by God and chosen by Him in Christ, they are those who are faithful till the end, even unto death. But even before they die they can be known by the fruit. And so every christian who is faithful to God and Loves God and practices righteousness is of the elect. The assurance is in the work of Christ and His Faithfulness.
Mwiya,
I fully understand that Calvinists believe in perseverance of the saints. That’s not the issue here. My point is that the assurance of salvation of a Calvinist, in practical terms, is either the same as that of an Arminian, less than that of an Arminian (since they can’t know for sure until the end who is truly elect), or in danger of being complacent (since, if they claim to be elect without possible doubt, then they would be claiming that it’s impossible for them to backslide).
The issue here is a practical one more than a doctrinal one. That is to say, How does our doctrine affect our personal life and practice?
So, when you say that “The assurance is in the work of Christ and His Faithfulness,” that is something that Arminians and Calvinists have in common, whereas Calvinists tend to claim that Arminians do not have this kind of assurance. Still, however, I would press the point to you: What if your heart grows cold? What if, God forbid, you are pulled into habitual, unrepentant sin? Would you still find assurance in the work of Christ and His faithfulness? Surely not — unless you are self-deceived. At that point, His Word to you would be, “Repent!” Thus your will and His work come together, and that’s where the ultimate assurance is found. But the notion that, “I’m one of the elect” really isn’t a factor.
Hello Dr. Brown,
I posted in response to your message on “does God get disappointed?’ over on the Nov. 19th thread.
I would appreciate seeing your response, at your convenience, thanks.
Robert
Dr Brown,
Though I view the main ideas of Calvinism as doctrinally correct. I do see your points, I also know that Christians are called to repent at various times and I know we are not perfect till we reach home so we can’t ever become so confident that we are being saved that we forget to actually abide in the Word. I think an understanding of what it means to be of the elect should always drive a person to live worthy of their calling. Not the opposite. So I think we agree on that. Just like a person calling themselves Christian doesn’t mean they are what they say they are, it essentially is the same argument.
Dr. Brown,
Sorry it took so long to respond to you. I base my assurance on the same Scriptures you do. I know the only reason I am able to do those things is because God works within me to do and will of his good pleasure. The only reason I stand here as a Christian is because God chose me. The only reason that my faith remains is because God chose me. Furthermore, nowhere in the Bible is this a warrant for sin. In fact, those who claim to be believers or elect or whatever and do not fight their sin, that is, they take on an attitude of complacency, are in danger of Hell. They say they claim to be Christian, yet they remain in willful rebellion – those two things are incompatible. Will one who places trust in Christ, who fights his sin, who bears the fruit of the Christian life be barred from heaven because he’s not elect? No, it doesn’t work that way. The only reason they were ever able to do any of those things in the first place was because of the grace of God. Though I myself am very far from perfect, my assurance comes from the fact that I have continued in my faith until now.
Practically speaking, I know myself well (not as well as I should though), and if the choice to remain in Christ was ultimately left up to me, I doubt I would have any assurance of tomorrow because I am so prone to sin. It was actually this fact that convinced me of Calvinism. I asked myself, “How do I wake up day after day a Christian? How do I continue in my faith?” In the light of my own sinfulness, I could not answer that it was because of me…the only answer was God’s constant abiding sovereign grace.
Nathaniel,
From the start, I have not been talking about a warrant for sin but rather the grounds for assurance. Based on what you’re saying, however, you could be opening the door to potential deception. That is to say, there are people who leave their spouses and live in adultery and tell you that they’re right with God because they still believe the gospel, etc., whereas the Word makes clear that if they were die in that unrepentant state, they would be lost (even if they were once saved).
What God’s Word says to you (based on 2 Peter 1) is to make every effort to make your calling and election sure, and that calls on you to demonstrate the fruit of faith in a godly and dedicated life.
In any case, your answer once again proves my point: The idea of being one of the elect is not the grounds for assurance, and were it to be made into the grounds for assurance, it would become an open door for self-deception and apostasy (unless it was coupled with a serious, ongoing commitment to the Lord that was examined on a periodic basis). This is also part of the reason that I have enjoyed far more assurance in my salvation as an Arminian than as a Calvinist.
Dr. Brown,
I don’t I’m following you. When I say “warrant for sin” I mean what you say here, “[a Calvinist's ground for assurance] would become an open door for self-deception and apostasy”. Why? The grounds for assurance in Calvinism is the fact that one is not living in apostasy or self deception. No Calvinist would say otherwise. Read John Macarthur’s Gospel According to Jesus, listen to John Piper’s sermons on unbelief, read John Owen’s Sin and Temptation or even any of John Calvin’s works on the subject. Any attempt to go beyond the Biblical commands in the way you’re suggesting (that Calvinism does) is Hyper Calvinism which is a detestable heresy that ignores the Biblical mandate to persevere and preach the Gospel.
I could do the same thing to Arminianism by saying its grounds of assurance opens to the doors to some form of Pelagianism. The truth is if we let our “practical” thinking interrupt our Biblical thinking, we will all be in danger of falling to some degree of heresy.
You asked me if I’m 100% sure I’m elect. The answer is yes because the my faith as a Christian, my continuing in good works, being convicted of my sin, loving my brother, etc. are not from myself (for I am only capable of rebellion), but from God, and they all testify to God’s keeping me.
That being said, I’m glad you enjoy assurance as an Arminian. What a great blessing we have as Christians to be assured of our salvation.
“You asked me if I’m 100% sure I’m elect. The answer is yes because the my faith as a Christian, my continuing in good works, being convicted of my sin, loving my brother, etc. are not from myself (for I am only capable of rebellion), but from God, and they all testify to God’s keeping me.”
So you confirm your doctrine leads you to believe you can never backslide such as commit in your heart: fornication, murder, unforgiveness, etc?
When you say “God’s keeping me” from sin, to speak from the “geek” (not Greek) terms, did God program Christians so that we can’t turn away from God? Meaning, once you get saved, you become a “spiritual robot”?
Nathaniel,
Amen! What a great blessing we have to be in God’s family.
I’m sorry that I haven’t been clear enough in my communication, but your point again backs up mine. If you read through the thread carefully, hopefully you’ll understand what I was seeking to communicate.
To repeat, though, for simplicity: If you say that you know you are saved and therefore one of the elect and therefore cannot possibly backslide, that opens the door for apostasy or deception. But that is not what you are saying, which again was my point.
Adding to what Ben KC said,
Doesn’t God all throughout scripture tell us to CHOOSE life? Believers are warned all throughout the epistles to turn away from sin and BACK to God. God always tells us to choose him.
Dr. Brown,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you’re saying that you can have as much assurance as an Arminian as you can a Calvinist? If that’s true, I can see your point. Biblically speaking, whether Arminian or Calvinist, I think you’re right in saying you can have same degree of assurance.
Ben and Kyle L.,
There are many differences between us and robots. I’m saying we are constrained by our natures to sin, and therefore, we are in need of a new heart. When the Bible says “choose life” or “choose this day whom you will serve”, that itself does not imply that we have the ability. If that were true, we would be able to follow the Law of God perfectly. The problem, as many of those passages point out, is that we have evil hearts, and we need God to give us new hearts in order to serve him and choose life.
Nathaniel,
I’m basically saying that our grounds for assurance remain the same, and they are the some of the grounds that you mentioned in earlier posts. Calvinism, however, can work against those grounds either by thinking that, on the one hand, only those who persevere to the end are truly saved (and therefore elect) and we can’t know that until the end — which can rob assurance — or, on the other hand, Calvinists can think, “Because I am sure that I am saved, I am therefore one of the elect and cannot possibly fall away,” which obviously opens the door for pride or complacency or even apostasy.
Dr. Brown,
I can accept that an Arminian can have the same degree of assurance as a Calvinist, but I obviously reject that Calvinism, if properly understood, can do damage to assurance. I can say the same about Arminianism. An Arminian can be robbed of assurance if they fall into Pelagianism.
Nathaniel,
Thanks for the interaction, and let’s rejoice in God’s goodness. I’d encourage to you think through the implications of what I shared briefly here when you have the opportunity. Again, thanks for the thoughtful interaction.
Nathaniel and Mwiya
I mentioned previously “So you confirm your doctrine leads you to believe you can never backslide/turn away from God such as commit willfully in the heart and/or physically: fornication, murder, getting drunk, etc? ”
Most Calvinist would agree if someone commits any of these sins, they were not saved from the beginning. Would you agree?
Ben,
I think I’ve been clear in saying that I don’t affirm a doctrine that allows people to sin all they like. However, I don’t think people pass from a state of saved to unsaved. It’s not the committing of sin (something which we all do) that determines our state, it’s the mindset in which we commit sin. “You must no longer walk in the futility of your minds,” and “do not be conformed to this world,” as well as a plethora of many other exhortations. The nature of apostasy is such that way of the world is much more attractive than living for Christ.
“I think I’ve been clear in saying that I don’t affirm a doctrine that allows people to sin all they like. However, I don’t think people pass from a state of saved to unsaved.”
Im am not clear on your statement here. You confirm you do not support a doctrine that gives people a license to sin but then you go to the next sentence confirming OSAS or OSAP. I would kind of expect the second sentence to respond to the first sentence to say something like, “they were never saved from the beginning”.
“It’s not the committing of sin (something which we all do) that determines our state, it’s the mindset in which we commit sin.”
Sins that are committed outwardly/inwardly reflect the spiritual condition of the heart. Hopefully you are not justifying that Christians who commit the sins I listed on above are saved.
So let me ask again similar to my question previously. If a Pastor who lived a clean life for 30 straight years but one day WILLFULLY commits one of these sins outwardly/inwardly such as fornication, adultery, murder, etc, would you confirm this individual was not saved from the beginning. Yes or no. If no, please explain.
Ben,
It depends. Christians are capable of sinning…even “big” sins. I really don’t understand what makes one sin bigger than the rest. Oftentimes, the Biblical writers will throw the “little” sins in with the “big” ones. Paul throws gossip in with murder and sexual immorality. If you gossip, does that mean you’re not saved?
Let me ask you a question. If you were to commit one of these sin would you still be saved?
One more thing, you need to distinguish OSAS from perseverance…they are different. Could you tell me what you understand perseverance to be? It would be a lot easier for us to interact that way. I say this because I think you have a false understanding of the doctrine.
“It depends”
In the context I provided above, please explain why it depends in further detail.
“Christians are capable of sinning…even “big” sins. I really don’t understand what makes one sin bigger than the rest.”
Questions is, who is labelling it big/small sins? So you confirm that someone who is saved can be capable of committing these sins such as willfully murdering someone?
“Let me ask you a question. If you were to commit one of these sin would you still be saved?”
If one willfully murders someone physically/internally, it expresses the condition of the heart which indicates they are not saved. 1 John 3:15 confirms murderers have no eternal life; “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.”
“Oftentimes, the Biblical writers will throw the “little” sins in with the “big” ones. Paul throws gossip in with murder and sexual immorality. If you gossip, does that mean you’re not saved?”
Please provide you Scriptual reference in regarding gossip. I think I know what passage you might be refering to but I would like you to confirm so that I can respond in further detail.
“One more thing, you need to distinguish OSAS from perseverance…they are different”
You can argue how it is different in other areas but both confirms one who is truly saved cannot fall away from God.
Ben KC and Nathaniel,
Perhaps the more precise way to ask the questions would be:
1) Is it possible for a Christian to commit murder and not repent and still be a Christian?
If so, this would be OSAS, as opposed to perseverance of the saints.
2) So then, is it possible for an elect person to commit murder and not repent?
Dr. Brown,
I believe Nathaniel may confirm the elect can commit murder as he stated above “Christians are capable of sinning…even “big” sins”.
Ben KC,
You will note that Dr. Brown after saying commit murder says and not repent. Repentance is always importance, we all sin…but if we confess our sins and repent of them…turn away from them and seek God and devote ourselves to Him even after we commit sin like gossip or murder or lust within our hearts…..there is forgiveness. I think its very simple, the elect once saved are truly saved and will persevere till the end. This is just another way of saying a christian who is really a christian fears God and will repent when he or she sins. I’ll give the OT example of David who sinned by planning and executing through the army commanders of Israel, the murder of Uriah after sleeping with his wife. When Nathan confronted Him, he repented and persevered to the end.
Whereas a false convert, a reprobate will claim faith and have NO Lasting fruits to show for their faith. They may go to church and even pray and worship for a while, but for some reason or another they will fall away. Those are not true believers.
Mwiya,
1) Can you determine who the elect are and guarantee they will never fall away?
2) Even if one falls into a lifestyle of sin and doesnt repent immediately, would you come to conclusion that the individual is not the elect?
“They may go to church and even pray and worship for a while, but for some reason or another they will fall away. Those are not true believers.”
1) In this context, will you say they are not the elect?
2) Please explain what “fall away” means.
If one shows fruit, can you conclude it will last long?
Ben,
We sin all the time, so I’m just wondering what separates us from non-Christians in your view. Also, could you explain the doctrine of perseverance as you see it. We need to get some of these definitional issues out of the way before we can actually discuss what you want to discuss.
To answer the two questions that Dr. Brown posted. I would answer “no” to both of them.
Nathaniel,
Thanks for the response. So then, if you are elect, it is impossible for you to commit murder without repenting, correct?
Also, what do you mean by saying that we sin “all the time”? Does not God’s grace empower us to lead holy lives? (Not sin-free lives, but lives that are marked my holiness and purity and obedience rather than lives that are marked by sin.)