November 10, 2009
Liberty from Sin, Not to Sin
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Why I Am Not a Calvinist – Part 2
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
Ben KC,
This is how I see perseverance:
Faith is not just an initial act of belief but a continual state of faithfulness whereby one’s faith or trust in Messiah causes them to Love Him with all they are. In other words their faith works through love. The hallmark of this love is keeping Christ’s commandments and delighting in them so that one abides in Christ’s words. Though we are not perfect, the reality is that we are bound to sin in some way or another at some point even being prideful for a moment is sin. Our response to that sin however also shows whether we love God or are cold towards Him. One who is faithful and loves God will repent of their sins continually and will also through out their christian life seek to cut off all the sins that hinder their walk. This is enabled by living and walking in the Spirit so that the power by which one lives and walks in not their own but God’s.
Mwiya,
Please help me understand something here. What is the difference here between your view and that of a non-Calvinist?
Nathaniel,
This is my third attempt to ask you because I feel you have not directly answer to my question in details which was:
1a) “So you confirm your doctrine leads you to believe you can never backslide/turn away from God such as commit willfully in the heart and/or physically: fornication, murder, getting drunk, etc? ” Most Calvinist would agree if someone commits any of these sins, they were not saved from the beginning. Would you agree?
1b) If a Pastor who lived a clean life for 30 straight years but one day WILLFULLY commits one of these sins outwardly/inwardly such as… murder… would you confirm this individual was not saved from the beginning. Yes or no. If no, please explain.
I have even provided a passage previously: “If one willfully murders someone physically/internally, it expresses the condition of the heart which indicates the true spiritual state. 1 John 3:15 “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.””
The question is:
what salvation means to you?
Like Leonard Ravenhill once said:
“Are you saved from what?”
He came to save us from our sins, are we saved from sexual immorality, gossip or such things that belongs to a past way of life that he doesn’t approve?
Another question:
The elects are whom elects?
They are his elects, so He only knows who they are. And we know by his Scriptures that he doesn’t have favoritism (1Peter 1:17).
One question for Nathaniel:
Was Moses elected to enter the promise land? If the answer is yes, then, what happened that he did not make it?
The Covenants are different but the God is the same. So let serve our Master with a holy fear.
Dr. Brown,
I should have clarified my statement. I should say our struggle with sin is constant because we still live in sinful bodies. We definitely have the power to overcome sin, but until we die or Jesus returns, we will continue to struggle with sin.
Ben,
1a) I’m not sure what you mean by “willfully commit”. Is there such thing as “not willfully commit”? Is there ever a time where we do not “willfully commit” sin? James would suggest otherwise. Someone who denies Jesus does so by either not believing or not bearing fruit to keep with repentance. One sin whether it is murder, adultery, hating your brother, or looking at a woman lustfully reflects the disposition of the flesh but not necessarily the state of faith of the believer. God forbid that any believer would ever do such things, but it has happened before. That being said, I would doubt whether the person is saved or not if they do commit murder. However, it’s not my job to judge whether or not they are a believer. It’s my job to call them to true repentance.
1b) I think I answered this above.
Now, please my questions which were in a previous post.
Nathaniel,
Thanks for your clarification.
On my end, I have no further questions to ask about the assurance and election issue, since it has become clear through the interaction with you and others here that a Calvinist has no more grounds for assurance than an Arminian. We put our trust in the work of Jesus and His keeping power, and we walk in obedience to His commands, not for a moment thinking that because we are children of God we have a licence to sin. And the witness of the Spirit and the promises of God, coupled with a life devoted to Him, assure us that we are His.
Hello Dr. Brown,
Now that you **seem** to have finished with this thread, I am still wondering about your response to my post on the Nov. 19th topic of whether or not God gets “disappointed”.
I would still like to see a response from you on this topic.
Thanks.
Robert
Dr. Brown,
Thanks for your interaction. I’ve learned a lot about Arminianism as well. God bless!
Dr Brown,
Amen. God bless his people!!
Robert,
Sorry that I missed your question. I address this in a Reflection to Jer 3:19 in my commentary on Jeremiah, which is about to come out. Perhaps I can explain my views on radio one day before the commentary is released, since it’s a bit too detailed to address in this blog.
In short, however, my answer is yes and no.
Joel,
I’m not sure I understand your question. Could you clarify it please?
Dr Brown,
LOL. I think we pretty much are on the same page when it comes to assurance and what it means. BTW I loved the analogy of the sun and the ligh of the sun as an analogy for God and The Messiah who is the radiance of the Glory of God.
Nathaniel,
“Perseverance of the saints”
“Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints. The word saints is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.”
“This doctrine is slightly different from the Free Grace or “once saved, always saved” view advocated by some evangelicals in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if they accepted Christ at any point in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may indicate that they were never saved.”
Okay, so the “slight” difference (in my opinion it’s a major difference) is being saved no matter what you do.
“One sin whether it is murder, adultery, hating your brother, or looking at a woman lustfully reflects the disposition of the flesh but not necessarily the state of faith of the believer.”
How do you respond to 1 John 3:15 “Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.”
“That being said, I would doubt whether the person is saved or not if they do commit murder. However, it’s not my job to judge whether or not they are a believer.”
Scripture makes it clear who are true believers in Christ. We use Scripture to discern correctly.
Ben,
The same way you would probably respond to it. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and hates their brother and does receive the rebuke of this verse should know they are in danger of Hell because they might not be who they claim to be. A Christian who is angry with his brother and receives the rebuke of this verse and repents, is exemplifying true Christianity.
“A Christian who is angry with his brother and receives the rebuke of this verse and repents, is exemplifying true Christianity.”
But that is not what the verse is talking about. It says “… no murderer has eternal life in him.” In context, one who commits the sin manifests the true spiritual state.
1 John 3:9 says “No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.”
If one genuinely repents, they are now saved. The question is, were they saved before they committed the sin?
At what point would you consider the individual not saved? Scripture makes it clear of those who are not saved. Its not just about the amount of sin the person commits. Its the sin that exposes the individual’s true state.
Ben,
Can a Christian sin?
You cannot call yourself Christian and murder.
1 John 5:15-17 (English Standard Version)
15And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. 16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and(A) God[a] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death.(B) There is sin that leads to death;(C) I do not say that one should pray for that. 17(D) All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death.
Question is, what kind of sin are you talking about. Sins that lead to death?
Death in this passage is “thanatos” in Greek. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says:
“the separation of man from God; Adam died on the day he disobeyed God, Gen 2:17, and hence all mankind are born in the same spiritual condition, Rom 5:12, 14, 17, 21, from which, however, those who believe in Christ are delivered, Jhn 5:24; 1Jo 3:14. “Death” is the opposite of life; it never denotes non-existence. As spiritual life is “conscious existence in communion with God,” so spiritual “death” is “conscious existence in separation from God.”"
So are you saying you can call youself Christian and commit sin that leads to spiritual death? You can call yourself Christian and murder?
As we are discussing about this, Its kinda funny to know that on Nov 10, Dr Brown speaks on “Liberty from Sin, Not to Sin”
Nathaniel,
You may have addressed this before but if you have, please redirect me or repost your response. My question is, do you have Scriptual support that someone can be saved, call themselves Christian and murder at the same time?
“Liberty from Sin, Not to Sin”. A needed message. There are definitely a growing trend going in churches today that speaks on “freedom” which is actually freedom from tradition but remains in bondage to the worldly desires.
People attempt to get out of the legalistic ditch and try to get back on the path but fall off onto the other side of the worldly ditch.
Ben,
Sorry for the late response, I’ve been really busy this week.
You say if a Christian murders, he is not a Christian. John brings this down to if you are angry with your brother it is the same as murder. So if you hate your brother, you are not Christian.
You say this: So are you saying you can call yourself Christian and commit sin that leads to spiritual death? You can call yourself Christian and murder?
This misses John’s point. He is commanding the believers he is writing to to not pray for someone who commits the sin that leads to death. You say that is murder which John compares to hating your brother. So according to your interpretation if a “Christian” brother hates his brother, we should not pray for him…I don’t think that’s what John is getting at.
Continually, in John’s letter admonishes the believer to stay in the light, to love their brothers, to not sin, to be in the truth. He also makes reference to Christ’s sacrifice saying, If you sin, we have an advocate with the Father who makes intercession for us and will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. The state of sin is not just a point-in-time action, it is a continual state of mind. John says he who loves his brother, walks in the light, and he who hates brother stumbles in the darkness and he does not know where he is going. The sin that leads to death is resisting the will of God (repentance) and continuing in darkness.
So can a Christian murder? I would say that if one who claims to be a Christian murders, it is very strong indication that he is not walking in the light (he’s not a Christian). But also, that is not just true for murder, if we continue in any type of sin (lust, anger, envy, etc.) and we do not repent and we do not fight it, we, as John says, make God a liar and the truth is not in us. John’s point is not murder vs. lying, it’s sinning vs. not sinning, darkness vs. light, truth vs. lies, love vs. hate. As Christians, we should be moving towards one side of the spectrum, beholding God more and more each day becoming more and more as he has called us to be.
“You say this: So are you saying you can call yourself Christian and commit sin that leads to spiritual death? You can call yourself Christian and murder? This misses John’s point. He is commanding the believers he is writing to to not pray for someone who commits the sin that leads to death. You say that is murder which John compares to hating your brother. So according to your interpretation if a “Christian” brother hates his brother, we should not pray for him…I don’t think that’s what John is getting at.”
It doesnt matter what we want to think. What matters is what 1 John 5 is saying. There are several commentaries that will confirm if someone who knows the truth decides to walk on the path of death, John wouldnt pray for restoral because its an indication the person is not willing to change. That also includes hating your brother/sister which is the indication of their spiritual condition. If one cannot love a person, then its a reflection that one does not love God. Once the person decides to walk on the path of spiritual death, at this point, its in God’s hands to decide what to do with the person. If the person responds to correction and request for help, then prayer will be applicable.
“I do not say that he should pray about that: Apparently, when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration – the situation is in God’s hands alone.” – Commentary by David Guzik
On your last paragraph, I agree that someone who murders is not saved. That is what I have been wanting you to acknowledge. If you were to justify that a saved person can murder, that is not Scriptural and possibly lead to a doctrine which gives a license to sin.
The common ground I find with moderate Calvinist is that someone cannot be saved and be in darkness. If one repents, they are saved afterwards. One of the difference I find with moderate Calvinist is, “can a saved person backslide / turn away from God?”. Moderate Calvinist says no and the Arminians say yes. The “liberal” or hyper Calvinist says a saved person can backslide and still be saved. The moderate Calvinist would confirm that the person was never saved from the beginning or never “slid foward”. The Arminian can agree with the Calvinist but can also include that a saved person can backslide / turn away from God.
Another difference is about perseverance. The moderate Calvinist believes the saved are predestined to persevere till the end and never fall away (backslide) while the Arminian believes the saved will persevere till the end if they continue to remain in Christ till the end.
Spiritual death. The notion seems bigger than life or established clear scriptural reference to it in the discussions above. Such subject matter does not become the substance for dispute among brethren. The Lord stated that attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the enemy of the righteous Father, i.e. to Satan or Belizbub (the Lord of the Flies, which also was a considerable insult as assigned to anyone in the Middle East), was the sin that led to death. In Hebrews falling away from grace back under the law, where such a position does not permit a renewal of repentance unto the new and living way life that Yeshua offered (as it is in Galations so too stated), is akin to spiritual death. Here in John’s letter not walking in the light of the love and faith Yeshua brought to us (e.g. by hating your brother, and embracing pattern sin) is a definition of it.
So, it is taking steps toward embracing and practicing personal sin, also highlighted in John’s letter as in tension with a living faith, which hardens the heart by indulgence over time, and may lead to falling away from faith itself. Such would be the path to death that John is discussing from several different angles in his letter. This has little to do with a Calvinist/Armenian dispute on doctrine on election or predestination. Plain and simple it is warning about what happens to the heart, hardened by pattern sin, and resulting in a loss of a living faith through its idolatry formed over time.
Life in the Spirit is defined with considerable insight by Yeshua, Paul, James, John, and Peter in many of their expressions, resulting writings, New Covenant wisdom statements, and references. A faith in Yeshua’s finished work, without boasting of one’s own conformity to the law as adequate for renewal unto life and salvation suffices–where regeneration from above by this position of heartfelt regard of the Spirit of God and of the sufficiency of the work of the Cross of Yeshua begins the connection to it–leading to an establishment of ever expanding grace and truth in a life abiding in Him. Hence, that Spirit convicts of righteousness, sin, truth, grace, mercy and justice, and the judgment to come in reference to Yeshua and belief in Him. Eventually, as Paul says in Galations, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love,” a great definition of life in the Spirit. And all of this is placed into an individual life’s considered regard by accepting the Life of the Messiah as sole possibility for the foundation of Life in the Spirit.
If one is going to debate spirital death, one has to find all the possibilities of spiritual life, its antithesis.
A. Murray has a great work so titled. It offers both sound scriptural reference and the unique qualities of abiding in the Messiah being key to ever increasing life, and pure hearted love.
“It doesnt matter what we want to think. What matters is what 1 John 5 is saying. ”
Yes, Ben, I am aware of this. I’m not really into deriving my own meaning from the text. When I say, “What I think John is saying…” I mean, “I’m about to present an argument for what John is saying,” or “I’m about to elaborate on what John means when he says this.”
“if someone who knows the truth decides to walk on the path of death, John wouldnt pray for restoral because its an indication the person is not willing to change.”
Absolutely! You don’t need a commentary to see this either. This is plain in the text. Is John saying that the attitude of a murderer is what we should avoid or just the act itself? Answer: Clearly both. We are not to hate our brother nor participate in the act of murder. Doing either of these things is a strong indication that we are not saved, and if are doing these things, we should repent.
Anything can lead to anything if we use our imagination. If a Christian has the ability to sin, that does not mean they have the license to do so. The Bible speaks otherwise, doesn’t it? We are, after all, only trying to be Biblical. Scripture does not give us any license to sin at all, and if we try to reason our way into gaining license, we are reasoning our way out of Scripture. To put it another way, “Did God not say…” is never a phrase that should come out of a Christian’s mouth when trying to justify sin. So when you say, “If you were to justify that a saved person can murder, that is not Scriptural and possibly lead to a doctrine which gives a license to sin,” this is actually a slippery slope fallacy.
Finally, I’m not sure what you mean by “moderate” Calvinist. I’ve read Geisler’s book…and he fudges the lines. He does nothing but confuse the issue. He even redefines the points which is why he can call himself a “moderate” Calvinist. A moderate Calvinist is in reality a 4-point Arminian.
I’m not sure a “hyper” Calvinist would say that you could backslide (this is actually an ambiguous term if you ask me) and still be a Christian. Although they do hold to several deeply heretical beliefs including denying the Great Commission, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. This position (backsliding Christians), however, is supported by a great deal of 4-point Arminians (a.k.a “moderate” Calvinists).
“We are not to hate our brother nor participate in the act of murder. Doing either of these things is a strong indication that we are not saved, and if are doing these things, we should repent.”
I am glad we are on the same page.
I should have left out the word “moderate”. I meant to say calvinist vs hyper calvinist.
“I’m not sure a “hyper” Calvinist would say that you could backslide (this is actually an ambiguous term if you ask me) and still be a Christian.”
You are correct. They wouldnt say that. That was defined from my perspective which is basically: No matter what they are in or what they do, they are still “saved”.
“You are correct. They wouldnt say that. That was defined from my perspective which is basically: No matter what they are in or what they do, they are still “saved”.”
I don’t understand. Are you saying that they wouldn’t say that, but you are saying that’s what they believe or are you just defining a new term?