I don’t understand. Are you saying that they wouldn’t say that, but you are saying that’s what they believe or are you just defining a new term?

You are correct. They wouldnt say that. That was defined from my perspective which is basically: No matter what they are in or what they do, they are still “saved”.

I am glad we are on the same page.

I should have left out the word “moderate”. I meant to say calvinist vs hyper calvinist.

Yes, Ben, I am aware of this. I’m not really into deriving my own meaning from the text. When I say, “What I think John is saying…” I mean, “I’m about to present an argument for what John is saying,” or “I’m about to elaborate on what John means when he says this.”

“if someone who knows the truth decides to walk on the path of death, John wouldnt pray for restoral because its an indication the person is not willing to change.”

Absolutely! You don’t need a commentary to see this either. This is plain in the text. Is John saying that the attitude of a murderer is what we should avoid or just the act itself? Answer: Clearly both. We are not to hate our brother nor participate in the act of murder. Doing either of these things is a strong indication that we are not saved, and if are doing these things, we should repent.

Anything can lead to anything if we use our imagination. If a Christian has the ability to sin, that does not mean they have the license to do so. The Bible speaks otherwise, doesn’t it? We are, after all, only trying to be Biblical. Scripture does not give us any license to sin at all, and if we try to reason our way into gaining license, we are reasoning our way out of Scripture. To put it another way, “Did God not say…” is never a phrase that should come out of a Christian’s mouth when trying to justify sin. So when you say, “If you were to justify that a saved person can murder, that is not Scriptural and possibly lead to a doctrine which gives a license to sin,” this is actually a slippery slope fallacy.

Finally, I’m not sure what you mean by “moderate” Calvinist. I’ve read Geisler’s book…and he fudges the lines. He does nothing but confuse the issue. He even redefines the points which is why he can call himself a “moderate” Calvinist. A moderate Calvinist is in reality a 4-point Arminian.

I’m not sure a “hyper” Calvinist would say that you could backslide (this is actually an ambiguous term if you ask me) and still be a Christian. Although they do hold to several deeply heretical beliefs including denying the Great Commission, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. This position (backsliding Christians), however, is supported by a great deal of 4-point Arminians (a.k.a “moderate” Calvinists).

Life in the Spirit is defined with considerable insight by Yeshua, Paul, James, John, and Peter in many of their expressions, resulting writings, New Covenant wisdom statements, and references. A faith in Yeshua’s finished work, without boasting of one’s own conformity to the law as adequate for renewal unto life and salvation suffices–where regeneration from above by this position of heartfelt regard of the Spirit of God and of the sufficiency of the work of the Cross of Yeshua begins the connection to it–leading to an establishment of ever expanding grace and truth in a life abiding in Him. Hence, that Spirit convicts of righteousness, sin, truth, grace, mercy and justice, and the judgment to come in reference to Yeshua and belief in Him. Eventually, as Paul says in Galations, “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love,” a great definition of life in the Spirit. And all of this is placed into an individual life’s considered regard by accepting the Life of the Messiah as sole possibility for the foundation of Life in the Spirit.

If one is going to debate spirital death, one has to find all the possibilities of spiritual life, its antithesis.

A. Murray has a great work so titled. It offers both sound scriptural reference and the unique qualities of abiding in the Messiah being key to ever increasing life, and pure hearted love.

It doesnt matter what we want to think. What matters is what 1 John 5 is saying. There are several commentaries that will confirm if someone who knows the truth decides to walk on the path of death, John wouldnt pray for restoral because its an indication the person is not willing to change. That also includes hating your brother/sister which is the indication of their spiritual condition. If one cannot love a person, then its a reflection that one does not love God. Once the person decides to walk on the path of spiritual death, at this point, its in God’s hands to decide what to do with the person. If the person responds to correction and request for help, then prayer will be applicable.

“I do not say that he should pray about that: Apparently, when a Christian is being corrected in regard to a sin leading to death, there is no point in praying for his recovery or restoration – the situation is in God’s hands alone.” – Commentary by David Guzik

On your last paragraph, I agree that someone who murders is not saved. That is what I have been wanting you to acknowledge. If you were to justify that a saved person can murder, that is not Scriptural and possibly lead to a doctrine which gives a license to sin.

The common ground I find with moderate Calvinist is that someone cannot be saved and be in darkness. If one repents, they are saved afterwards. One of the difference I find with moderate Calvinist is, “can a saved person backslide / turn away from God?”. Moderate Calvinist says no and the Arminians say yes. The “liberal” or hyper Calvinist says a saved person can backslide and still be saved. The moderate Calvinist would confirm that the person was never saved from the beginning or never “slid foward”. The Arminian can agree with the Calvinist but can also include that a saved person can backslide / turn away from God.

Another difference is about perseverance. The moderate Calvinist believes the saved are predestined to persevere till the end and never fall away (backslide) while the Arminian believes the saved will persevere till the end if they continue to remain in Christ till the end.

Sorry for the late response, I’ve been really busy this week.

You say if a Christian murders, he is not a Christian. John brings this down to if you are angry with your brother it is the same as murder. So if you hate your brother, you are not Christian.

You say this: So are you saying you can call yourself Christian and commit sin that leads to spiritual death? You can call yourself Christian and murder?

This misses John’s point. He is commanding the believers he is writing to to not pray for someone who commits the sin that leads to death. You say that is murder which John compares to hating your brother. So according to your interpretation if a “Christian” brother hates his brother, we should not pray for him…I don’t think that’s what John is getting at.

Continually, in John’s letter admonishes the believer to stay in the light, to love their brothers, to not sin, to be in the truth. He also makes reference to Christ’s sacrifice saying, If you sin, we have an advocate with the Father who makes intercession for us and will cleanse us of all unrighteousness. The state of sin is not just a point-in-time action, it is a continual state of mind. John says he who loves his brother, walks in the light, and he who hates brother stumbles in the darkness and he does not know where he is going. The sin that leads to death is resisting the will of God (repentance) and continuing in darkness.

So can a Christian murder? I would say that if one who claims to be a Christian murders, it is very strong indication that he is not walking in the light (he’s not a Christian). But also, that is not just true for murder, if we continue in any type of sin (lust, anger, envy, etc.) and we do not repent and we do not fight it, we, as John says, make God a liar and the truth is not in us. John’s point is not murder vs. lying, it’s sinning vs. not sinning, darkness vs. light, truth vs. lies, love vs. hate. As Christians, we should be moving towards one side of the spectrum, beholding God more and more each day becoming more and more as he has called us to be.

People attempt to get out of the legalistic ditch and try to get back on the path but fall off onto the other side of the worldly ditch.

You may have addressed this before but if you have, please redirect me or repost your response. My question is, do you have Scriptual support that someone can be saved, call themselves Christian and murder at the same time?