December 21, 2009
Prepare for Tribulation?
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Prepare for Tribulation?
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Ive grown up in an AG church which supports pre-trib view. In a way, I wish the pre-trib view was true but I now support the post-trib view.
Its pretty much taboo to shed any kind of doubt on the “rapture theory” in most pentecostal and baptist churches here in the U.S.
I appreciate that Michael Brown isn’t caught up in religion like that. I used to travel to brownsville just to sit in on his teachings… ‘course the worship with lindell and the preaching with Steve and John was good too
Dear Dr. Brown -
I will be commenting on your topic on my BlogTalkRadio program today, December 23, 2009. You can find the program here: http://tinyurl.com/stevekerp and just click on the date (sorry, Mac users: it’s an asx streaming file). Or follow the link from there to my program page on BlogTalkRadio and select the program.
Blessings!
Steve
IF you want some incredible and interesting teaching about this I would highly recommend a series by MIKE BICKLE out of the INTERNATIONAL HOUSE OF PRAYER KC called “The Overview of Revelation” Also “7 Bowls and 7 Trumpets” as well as “The Millenial Kingdom” —- there is a book by a guy named DAVID SLIKER called “The Endtimes Simplified” (also from the IHOP KC) and the “OMEGA COURSE” also available through their ministry. IF this is a subject that is of interest of you – you will enjoy these resources. I am not saying it is all 100% right (or wrong) – it is just VERY VERY eye opening and good! http://www.ihop.org (PS – I am not related to their ministry in any way – nor do I formally represent them)
There is a bit of a difference between tabulation and persecution.
The church has undergone persecution from day one.
Tribulation is specifically around the last couple of years before Christ sets up His Kingdom.
To call persecution tribulation is just silly.
The people who underwent torture to death by the hand of Nero did not go through tribulation but persecution, the same applies to all who suffer to death all over the world today.
Johan,
Would you be kind enough to prove your point using the Bible? Personally, I do not find a specific sense of the Greek word thlipsis, tribulation, pressure, that applies only to what you refer to as “the last couple of years before Christ sets up His Kingdom.”
So, please show me the verses that support your view, and also show me where our suffering for the Lord — called tribulation in the NT — is distinguished from the special type of tribulation you mention. I would be very interested to see support for your view, especially since you claim that the view that I’m espousing is “just silly.”
Thanks!
Hello Dr. Brown,
I must say that I’m skeptical that a Rapture proponent has ever taught that there will be “no real persecution” prior to the Rapture, or that we will be raptured “before trouble breaks out.” Nevertheless, I do appreciate your efforts to bring attention to the fact that Christians are indeed suffering around the world for the sake of the Gospel.
What I’ve read from Rapture proponents is that the Great Tribulation has a specific relevance, which does not involve the Church. What do you think that the purpose of the 7 year, Great Tribulation is? Jack Van Impe is a proponent of the Rapture doctrine. In his book, “Everything you always wanted to know about Prophecy but didn’t know who to ask,” I think he does a nice job of explaining God’s purpose in the Great Tribulation. I also find interesting, the analogy of endtime prophecy with ancient Jewish Marriage Customs. Richard Booker wrote a book called, “Here Comes the Bride.” Have you come across it? Being a Messianic Jew, I’d be very interested in hearing your thoughts on that.
Richard,
My point to Johan was simply that the NT terminology does not support his point. As for the Jewish wedding paradigm allegedly supporting a pre-trib rapture, I do not find support for this either.
John 16:21
” A woman, when she gives birth, has sorrow, because her time has come. But when she has delivered the child, she doesn’t remember the anguish any more, for the joy that a human being is born into the world.”
Revelation 12:1 and 12:5-6
“A great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 12:2 She was with child. She cried out in pain, laboring to give birth.
….
12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron. Her child was caught up to God, and to his throne. 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that there they may nourish her one thousand two hundred sixty days.”
The Great Tribulation has the purpose to bring forth the child which is God’s Kingdom. The child ONLY belongs to those that go through the labor pains – the Great Tribulation.
Without labor pains there will be no child.
The woman has a crown of twelve stars on her head which indicates the reunion of the twelve tribes of Israel during the Great Tribulation. Those twelve tribes will NOT be replaced by any church, because we see in the book of Revelation that they are still relevant (see for example Revelation7:5-8).
Dear Dr. Brown, in the Christmas discussion you wrote:
“Erika,
Thanks for your post, but it did not address my question: Where are the events of Rev 12 identified as “the great tribulation”? How can you distinguish those events from John 16:33 (promising “tribulation” to all of us in this world) based on NT vocabulary? It’s important not to read other ideas into the text or to base doctrine on the Book of Revelation alone.”
I think you wanted to write it in here. I did not see though that you asked me a question.
So your question is: ” Where are the events of Rev 12 identified as “the great tribulation”? How can you distinguish those events from John 16:33 (promising “tribulation” to all of us in this world) based on NT vocabulary?”
My answer would be that verse 6 “The woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that there they may nourish her one thousand two hundred sixty days. ” indicates the time of the great tribulation.
The woman crying in birth pain is as I see it a sign of both persecution and the great tribulation, but then again the crown with the twelve stars would point to the twelve tribes we find in Revelation 7:5-8
In my opinion the Kingdom of God here on earth can only come about through major shaking of the status quo (birth pain).
Erika,
Do you see at all that you are reading a whole system into the text, rather than letting the text speak for itself? Would you ever have come up with the detailed dispensational eschatology without having someone teach it to you first? I too expect major shakings on the earth, along with major kingdom advances, right until the end of this age, but I do not see the dispensational system taught in the Bible.
So you would not see the twelve stars as the twelve tribes?
And what about verse six? How do you see this whole event?
P.S. Dear Dr. Brown,
I’m not really sure what you mean by me being dispensational.
Just to clear it up: I myself truly hope to go through and survive the great tribulation, and as far as I know I’m not Jewish.
P.S. that means that I hope I won’t die or be raptured before the great tribualtion. Is that clear?
P.S. I don’t believe in a pre-trib-rapture anyway, otherwise I would always be worried hoping I won’t be raptured before everything starts. I think there will ONLY be ONE rapture, and it will be the same one for every person.
? Well, it’s late now here in Germany, I’m going to sleep now. Looking forward to discussing this tomorrow again
Erika,
Thanks for clarifying things. It appeared that you were jumping in on Johan’s behalf in terms of my question, so I misunderstood your points. I don’t have issues with the twelve tribes interpretation you mention, etc., but I wrongly thought you were arguing for a dispensational teaching on the “great tribulation.”
Thanks Dr. Brown! Dr. Brown, could I have your opinion on this:
Don’t you also find it really odd that most people are afraid of the great tribulation and hope to escape it – just like a woman that would be afraid of the labor pains and therefore hopes the child will never be born (or maybe even doesn’t see any connection between labor pains and birth)? To me this indicates that most people don’t have a clue what this is all about. What’s your opinion?
I think that the book of Revelation indicates that we will be protected from the wrath of God while going through the great tribulation. Not that I’m suicidal – I love to live in ease and peace. But in my opinion it is a very positive thing that the great tribulation will bring about the kingdom of God, that’s why I hope to live through it and survive it.
P.S. You wrote:
“I too expect major shakings on the earth, along with major kingdom advances, right until the end of this age”
What do you mean by “the end of this age” ? The end of our 6000-year period or the end of the millenial Kingdom? Or are these two periods (the 6000 years and the millenial Kingdom) not seperated as much? I would say that the bible indicates that they are seperated, but I believe that the advancement of God’s Kingdom will come about through ordinary people that God can use. I’m just curious how you see that, because I think how we see that will majorly shape our life style.
To use Yeshua’s parable again: If we believe that a child is about to be born, we will take on resonsibility for it and prepare its way!
Erika,
By the end of this age I mean the end of this age before the millennial kingdom.
Hello Dr. Brown,
Here is a link to an outline of what Richard Booker discusses.
http://www.wildolive.co.uk/weddings.htm
I see the Rapture as having significance with the Church, and the Great Tribulation has having significance with presently unbelieving Israel. I see the Great Tribulation following the model of Joseph’s testing and revelation to his estranged brothers.
Richard, yes, I understand the points and appreciate them. I simply do not see them taught in the Scriptures, but I do not divide with my friends and brothers over the issue.
Dr. M. Brown,
Do you support a prewrath parousia and epiphinea? What else will accompany the appearing, glory, and catching up of the saints, whenever, however?
Do you support a preMKingdom appearing and catching up? With Yeshua coming in the sky over the Jezreel or another Valley for and with the saints, or per Rev. 20 does that occur after the M. Kingdom? Why so?
Jabez,
Based on the language of 2 Thes 1, I don’t see a pre-wrath parousia in that the Lord’s coming in fiery judgment syncs with His coming to rescue us. That being said, I am not dogmatic about the final details and how they work out, since I’m not 100% sure how all the relevant passages should be interpreted. It is the broad, large strokes that are clear to me, and I recognize that others may have more insight on the details than I do.
A question for you guys:
Revelation 20:4-5 teach us of the “first resurrection” when Jesus come to be King in earth. How can a rapture take please before the first resurrection if Paul taught that the deads in Christ will be resurrected first and then the people of God that will be alive will be transformed?
I think one big problem we have today is the dispensational teaching concerning Israel and “the church”. Israel was chosen by God in order to spread the knowledge about God to the four corners of the earth. I believe that God NEVER intended to create two different groups that serve Him.
Today we have the nation of Israel that for the largest part does not acknowledge Yeshua as the Messiah. But they gave us the Jewish books of the Old and New Testament.
On the other side we have all the Christian non-Jews who “believe” in Yeshua as the Messiah, but for the largest part don’t have a clue about the foundation of their belief – the Old Testament and therefore also don’t understand the New Testament. They still live and think in the conditions of their pre-Christian history, as we can see in the feasts and other customs they have.
These facts layed the foundation for replacement theology on the Christian side and the Jewish rejection of Messianics on the Jewish side.
Today we still think in terms of bloodlines, and bloodlines in our understanding divide the servants of God in two different groups: The Jews and the non-Jews.
(Hence the view that the great tribulation is for the Jews, while the Christians will be raptured, which is a hoax in my opinion.)
Yes, I agree that the intermediate calling of these two groups we have created today is different. The Jews have the calling to show God’s character and His oracles to the world (Romans 3:1-2) and the Christians have the calling to live Messiah (Romans 11:11).
But ultimately both groups should fulfill both callings. The oracles of God should be known by Jews and Christians alike as well as the Messiah. BECAUSE in essence the oracles of God and the Messiah CANNOT be separated from each other! Of what use is the Messiah when we don’t have a clue what He came to fulfill in our lives – and of what use are the oracles of God if we don’t know how to fulfill them??
If we will be able to get this right once again in our heads, we will be prepared for the end times and in the worst tribulation we will be more than conquerors (Romans 8:37).