December 22, 2009
December 23, 2009 | 170 Comments
Should We Celebrate Christmas? (And a Visit from the Grandsons)
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December 23rd, 2009 @ 1:43 pm
I was raised Catholic, but after Marrying a Jewish man found out from my father that his family was Jewish. It took me 8 years in a Messianic Congregation before I was able to let go of Christmas. The scripture that convinced me the most is Deut 12:29-32. I think this speaks to God’s character and he says he does not change. So I continually seek to find those things in my life that God hates.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 2:22 pm
I just finished listening to “Should We Celebrate Christmas”. My response to this is NO. Let me start by saying that I did use to celebrate christmas, until we stumbled upon it’s origins. After much studying of where it originated from and all it really stands for we have nothing to do with it.
What is amazing to me is the amount of Christians that do know the holiday is nothing but pagan but still choose to celebrate it??? The are so many scriptures in the Bible that commands God’s people to be separate from the world, to come out from among them, yet when we know as Christians that something is of pagan origin we still choose to partake of it????? It is our job as Christians to study to show ourselves approved, and when we do learn the truth of something we are to have nothing to do with it if it is evil, but it seems that the church thinks we can redeem everything……..
A few years ago when Christmas was on a Sunday we were leaving church, and where our church is their are a lot of homeless people. One of the homeless comes riding by on his bike hollering you bunch of pagans celebrating the pagan days. We were able to stand blameless and tell him we have nothing to do with christmas. I tell this story to say…….. I find it funny that someone that is not a Christian knows better than most people who call them selves Christians. The world watches the church and the only thing they see wright now is us living like them.
I do not say any of this to condem, but hoping and praying that people will learn we have to live separate lives. As I said in the beginning I used to celebrate but when we saw what it was really about we walked away from it. Do I bash those over the head that do celebrate and call themselves Christians NO, not in anyway. We simply give them the information we have and tell them to read it and pray their eyes are opened. If they choose to celebrate that will be between them and God on judgment day.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 3:26 pm
Hello Brother and Sisters. I like to celebrate Christmas, but not worship the things. I feel that this is the actual birth of Jesus. One thing that I recommend would be to watch this video. You have to buy it do.
http://www.bethlehemstar.com/ Well, appreciate your ministry Dr. Brown. God Bless.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 3:40 pm
I think we as Christians should celebrate Christmas. Even IF it was pagan, that is not what celebrate. I’m not bowing down to some idol now am I? Christmas for me is getting with my family. Now that I’m maturing as a Christian, I am seeing it as more spiritual.
Number two, if this pagan madness is such a big deal to people, we shouldn’t be celebrating birthday’s either. And we shouldn’t call wednesday wednesday because it’s named after a pagan god. About Jeremiah 10… it’s not about trees… look at the context…it’s about wooden carved idols trimmed with gold… I’m so sick of people using that verse…
Christmas for one is not Christmas for another. My Christmas is not the worlds Christmas. I know what I’m celebrating.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 3:41 pm
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/treesok.html
For reference
December 23rd, 2009 @ 3:50 pm
Many other things in our culture are stained with paganism, so we might as well drop them too. (sarcasm)
Look at car logos. Look at electronic company names. Look at anything in our culture. The point is that the pagan taint is nothing to be concerned about, Christ has redeemed it. Paul speaks of taint in Romans 14.
Christmas belongs to Christians, that’s why it’s called Christmas.
As Dr. Brown stated, if the day did not reflect God’s glory, people would not be forcing “Happy Holidays” down our throats. As for me and my family, I will not teach them about santa, I’m gonna keep the Christ in Christmas.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 3:59 pm
Finally, the scriptures raised by anti-christmas Christians deal with idolatry. Am I celebrating and worshiping an idol? No…
I want to look at Jeremiah as well. Notice the following terms
“The work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. ”
“They fasten it with nails and hammers”
“And they cannot speak;
They must be carried, ”
“Do not be afraid of them,
For they cannot do evil,
Nor can they do any good.”
“A wooden idol is a worthless doctrine. ”
Christmas tree? Obviously not, rather this verse speaks of how gentiles carve trees into wooden idols and how they are useless idols. No trees…. A similar passage is found in Isaiah describing how idols are carved out of wood and how the very wood he carves warms him. It’s about idols, not trees.
Now, this being said, is my tree an idol? No, I am not making it one. We are capable of making anything into an idol, but I’m simply using this tree as a decoration!
As the child said, it’s all about Jesus
December 23rd, 2009 @ 5:00 pm
No! Christians should not celebrate Christmas. Even the word “mas” in Christmas is in relation to paganism practices. That alone should point out that Christians shouldn’t celebrate it. Jesus wasn’t even born on the 25Th of December! He didn’t tell us to celebrate his birth. We are in the world but not of the world.
We shouldn’t do as the world do. Some atheists even celebrate Christmas. Many people who have heard the truth about this holiday makes excuses that seems right in their eyes as they continue on celebrating this holiday. We dont determine what is right and wrong… God does. His word clearly states that we shouldn’t be partaking in this. Let him that has an ear let him hear…
http://www.sovereigngrace.net/should.htm
December 23rd, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
I think that we should strive to do first what God has commanded us to do. Then, if you would like to honor him with some sort of extra-curricular activity – fine. But do try to honor God with the things that truly honor him. Decorating a tree just seems odd to me. Let’s focus on the things that we KNOW will honor him – like feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. So I think the answer is no.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 5:54 pm
Many times I have asked people can you celebrate Christmas without a tree, presents, etc. etc. and their answer is no because it’s not Christmas without all those things. Anything you place in high esteem over and above God is an idol. You don’t have to worship a tree for it to be an idol. Money is an idol to many people but because they don’t sing worship songs or pray to their money they don’t see it as an idol. God said the path was narrow, but if you can’t pack your tree, presents, etc and stay on the path what is it? God specifically says in Deut 12-20-32 that he hates it when we take the things of the pagans and do them for him. How do you get around that? My God hates pagan things. It doesn’t say just when you worship them, he says don’t do them for him? How can we justify grieving the heart of God by saying they don’t mean what they use to. What do they mean to God? Didn’t he say don’t look around and see what the pagans to for their gods and do them for me, because everything they do I HATE.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 6:11 pm
Christmas will continue to be for Christians till church denominations, pastors (priests, etc.), seminaries quit teaching it is on december 25th. If asked point blank when was Jesus born, virtually all will admit it wasn’t on December 25th. But many will not know for sure. Most Messianic and Jews could discern approximately the time. Some say who cares so long as we honor him.
But if you have kids, would it make sense to celebrate their birthdate on a day months away from their actual date? I think not. To others that know or understand the seasons, most Christians look silly by celebrating in the wrong month. But since most wont bother to study the Word to discern it for themselves, the lie continues generation after Generation. Then theres all the presents and commercialization……..
I’m guilty as most till I started to listen and learn.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 6:16 pm
I totally agree with Kelly, but I think that many people don’t have a clue about how Christmas came about. I agree with Dr. Brown’s challenge to have many people look up the pagan origins of Christmas. I think that Christians need to seek out thier Jewish roots. I know that we need to seperate ourselves from the world. We are salt!!!
December 23rd, 2009 @ 6:17 pm
In my past, I never celebrated/observed any holidays. I then began to celebrate/observe all holidays of this world.
As I matured in my faith, I returned to my Hebraic Roots and ceased to celebrate/observe these.
I am also so blessed that my children (15 and 10) are also feel celebrating/observing these holidays are Pagan.
We rather follow the feasts that are detailed in scripture, including Chanukah.
In regards to birthdays, we do not celebrate but do say to each other ‘Happy Birthday’ and that is it.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 7:07 pm
It does not say ANYWHERE in the Bible that Christmas is The birth of Yeshua he says in the Bible no one knows the time and date of my birth nor does he want you to celebrate it the way people do!!! It says in the bible i do not have the verse right now that having the tree in your house and bowing to it (getting presents out from it) is against HIM!! The tree is Pagan, It is not his Birthday!!
December 23rd, 2009 @ 7:11 pm
Shalom to all!
If I may ask two introspective questions:
1) Are we honoring the appointed times G-d has commanded or are we setting those aside and celebrating Christmas (and other traditional holidays) instead? If the answer is the latter, then by observing Christmas are we upholding the “traditions of men” over the commandments of G-d? What did the Lord say about that? (Mark 7:6-9)
2) Is anything about the various “traditional” Christmas activities actually G-dly as described in Scripture? Christmas trees? Santa and elves? Tinsel? Holly? Gift giving? Mistletoe? Candle lighting?
What are your thoughts?
These aren’t things we need to do to make life easier (e.g. driving cars, using microwaves, computers, etc).
December 23rd, 2009 @ 7:44 pm
Here is my reference. The celebration of ones birthday is extremely pagan.
http://www.thercg.org/articles/abcc.html
December 23rd, 2009 @ 7:55 pm
Makeup is pagan in origin too.
http://www.thercg.org/books/tthbm.html
December 23rd, 2009 @ 8:20 pm
“Anything you place in high esteem over and above God is an idol. You don’t have to worship a tree for it to be an idol.”
Am I making it an idol? Does it have higher esteem than God? I think not… rather it is simply a decoration. Again, my Christmas is not the worlds Christmas. I choose to celebrate Jesus. When I have children their won’t be any of this Santa clause nonsense. If anything, Jesus has overcome and replaced the pagan holiday if anything. CHRISTmas. It’s abotu Christ. That’s why the world says “happy holidays,” because they know it’s about Jesus. As for WHEN the birthday of Jesus occurred, we cannot know for sure… therefore I don’t see problem in celebrating it on the 25th. I conclude my analysis with Romans 14.
14 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”a
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no foodb is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
December 23rd, 2009 @ 10:38 pm
I let go of Christmas five years ago. I was convinced from the Scriptures that we should not mix idolatry and worship of the LORD. Believers who become aware of the pagan roots or choose to remain willfully ignorant are harming themselves. The majority of the ones I talk to are captivated by their own emotions or fleshly desires. They say that they are celebrating Christ but it’s all about the presents. I say let EVERYTHING that is of the world go. Christmas is definitely of the world.
Shalom,
Brandon
December 23rd, 2009 @ 11:28 pm
This is slightly off-topic, but one thing you don’t often hear about is that evergreen trees are very bad for the human respiratory system. Bringing one into your home really is just not good for you (regardless of whether or not christmas should or should not be celebrated.)
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-111403463.html
http://environment.about.com/od/greenchristmas/a/christmas_trees.htm
December 24th, 2009 @ 2:35 am
Many Christians I speak admit that Christmas is not the birthday of Jesus Christ (Yeshua Messiah). A Christian Pastor even admitted and said that there “are probelms with that date”. Research by scholars pinpoint the date in September, most likely the Feast of Tabernacles (Sukkot to Jews), while early December (coinciding with Hannuka) would be the date of immuculate conception. So 9 months back, conception would likely be the date of conception. Emporer Constantine converted to Christianity, ended persecution of Christians and chose December 25th with approval of the church as a means to convert his pagan Roman subjects to his new faith, and thus consecrate this pagan festival and convert the festival to a Christian tradition. It is called syncretism. The Puritans, an ultra-conservative fundamentalist Protestant Christian sect, enjoying popularity in the 16th century, were the only Christians who made a deliberate attempt to ban Christmas, calling it a “godless heathen festival filled with debauchery and excess”, succeeding at one time to ban Christmas for 22 years in Britain, but the ban remained unpopular, and it was re-instated when Catholic leaders were voted back into power.
In my humble opinion that this festival still has its merits if observed for the correct reason…which is…
1) It was the end of persecution for the Christian community in the Roman Empire.
2) It marked the beginning of conversion of the whole of the Roman Empire from idolatry and paganism to Christianity.
3) It marked the “birth” of Christianity from a small marginalized persecuted sect into a global religion and the name of God declared to all nations.
December 24th, 2009 @ 4:27 am
Stories Behind the Traditions of Christmas is a great book on this subject.
What does it matter that we con’t know the exact day of Messiah’s birth? So what? SOmeone picked a day. It displaced a pagan celebration among the common folk. Good thing. God is not a religious stiff who is upset that the date is off. Come on. Lighten up and don’t be religious about it.
There is nothing wrong with a tradition that is fun and is centered on Jesus anyhow. It is what it is.
December 24th, 2009 @ 6:35 am
” Jesus wasn’t even born on the 25Th of December! He didn’t tell us to celebrate his birth. We are in the world but not of the world.”
Even if His birth was not on the 25th, Scripture does not speak against celebrating. We do it because its cultural and there is nothing wrong with it.
“His word clearly states that we shouldn’t be partaking in this.”
Really?!? Please provide the passage.
December 24th, 2009 @ 9:51 am
That’s strange. several entries I have posted have not been displayed.
December 24th, 2009 @ 9:51 am
http://www.albatrus.org/english/potpourri/dates/historical_calendar_of_jesus.htm
Jesus was born before sunrise 1 Elul 3758, which was Monday, August 12, 3 BC. (NOTE: this Jupiter-Venus conjunction in Leo was 4 2 arcminutes in separation. The wise men [Magi] saw Jesus’ star at its rising in the east, thus their own witness to this conjunction near the “king star” Regulus was judicially construed as our Messiah’s true date and approximate time of birth, 4 AM JST )
Jesus was visited by the Magi on the eve of 16 Tammuz 3759 [Mat 2:1-12], which was Tuesday evening, June 17, 2 BC; Jesus was ten and a half months old at the time. (NOTE: this near-perfect Jupiter-Venus conjunction in Leo was six arcseconds from concentricity. When Venus is sufficiently elongated from the Sun, and the sky is crystal-clear, Venus can barely be seen with the naked eye in broad daylight. This dazzling conjunction was significantly brighter than Venus alone, thus was certainly visible in broad daylight in a clear sky–and we know that the sky was clear by the Magi’s own testimony! Extant historical and astronomical evidences have further proven incontrovertibly that Herod “the Great” died within 3 weeks after the “blood red” total lunar eclipse of Saturday, January 10, 1 BC )
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:00 am
It’s important that Christians should learn the Hebrew/Jewish festivals. The timing of the festivals are significant to events in God’s timin of historical events. In the comment above, 1 Elul is the 1st day of the Fall Festival. Because the Jewish calenday is a 360 day calendar, it’s always on 1 Elul but almost never on the same day on our 365 day calendar. Thus why Christians never know what day and can’t settle on a day. But you have to wonder how december 25th got chosen as there is now Jewish significance to December 25th, unless it coincides with a day of Hanikkah or a Shabbat.
Do your own diligence and learn what significant events have occured on Jewish Festival holidays and learn something Amazing.
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:22 am
As for all the pagan stuff someone mentioned earlier, like the days of the week etc…. their are certain things that we must deal with in this world. Our money system is pagan our calendar etc…. those are things we cannont do anything about, but the things we can do something about we should.
As mentioned before by Jerod we are to be salt, we are are the salt in this world, but when we choose to contaminate ourselves with the world we loose our flavor.
I have not seen one scriputer in the Bible telling me to celebrate His birth, but……..
Their are plenty for us to chew on about partaking in His death and suffering!
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:57 am
Indeed Kelly, but as you just said there is nothing in scripture telling us to celebrate our birthdays or put on makeup either.
Let us celebrate his birth and thank him for his mission on this day.
December 24th, 2009 @ 11:02 am
Let us overtake this day twisted by culture and greed, and let it shine for Jesus. We as Christians have taken it from pagans and claimed it in Jesus name. Christ has been victorious!
We have been called to influence the world and be salt and look, we haven’t been been influenced, Christ has influenced the world. The day belongs to Jesus and we should celebrate it as such!
December 24th, 2009 @ 11:39 am
Sorry but I fail to see where the church has taken Christmas from the pagans. That is like saying we can take Haloween and make it holy……….. but let me guess we can Redeem that also?
Pagans do still celebrate their day.
I am willing to lay down anything for the lover of my soul! The one who gave His life for me. I am willing to go all the way. Nothing is worth holding onto if it means it will separate me from God.
If I see where b-days are wrong or makeup is wrong you can have it all I really don’t care. Take this whole world and give me Jesus, No turning back, no turning back!
Blessings in Jesus!
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:10 pm
Indeed, I agree, I will lay anything down, but to condemn other Christians because of their observance of a day or because you think something is unclean is prohibited by scripture. Romans 14 is against you on this. I’m merely responding. And yes we could redeem Halloween. I don’t see a single reason why we shouldn’t celebrate Christmas, I am simply celebrating Jesus. Again, nothing I’ve posted has been responded to.
The day belong to Jesus and we should celebrate it as such. No longer does it bleong to pagans. That’s why it’s called CHRISTmas…. Come on now… CHRISTmas is for Christ and I will celebrate Jesus and the victory of Christianity.
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:13 pm
“Sorry but I fail to see where the church has taken Christmas from the pagans.”
Seriously? It’s called CHRISTMAS, it’s celebrating JESUS’ birth, JESUS’ ressurection, JESUS’ mission, CHRISTIANTY’s triumph over the pagan world and GOD’s outreach to the gentile world. That’s why we sing Hymns of Christ around this day. Christ has overtaken it…
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:18 pm
Again I quote Romans 14. Just because you feel that a certain DAY is UNCLEAN does not give you the right to condemn other Christians to Hell. This is exactly what Paul is talking about. Gentiles did not need to become Jews in order to come to Jesus. Paul says this over and over and over again, you are not to condemn other Christians over matters of unclean days or meats or foods. Especially if the day is celebrated to JESUS. Paul is warning you against doing such. Do you not believe the word of God Kelly? For you Christmas is not to be celebrated and that is fine. For me to celebrate Christmas is fine. READ THIS PASSAGE
14 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ ”a
12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14 As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no foodb is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15 If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16 Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19 Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21 It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22 So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23 But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
It deals with unclean things tainted by idols and the observance of days, concepts linked so clearly with the issue at hand. You claim that it is an unclean day and should not be observed. Paul claims that you should not condemn Christians who observe it.
Merry CHRISTmas
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:20 pm
Will you prove your point with scripture or just opinions? Please state scripture for me, as I have done
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:25 pm
Let’s see here, in Colossians 2:16-21
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day……………
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
Again, do not judge other Christians over their observance of a religious festival, in this case, Christmas, celebrating JESUS
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:27 pm
AGAIN, in Titus… Titus 1:15
15 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:31 pm
Kyle,
You have a lot to say
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:35 pm
Over and over, in Titus 3:8…
9 But kavoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 lReject a divisive man after the first and second 1admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
We are to reject those who create division based on simple contentions.
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:35 pm
You know me Ben, I do.
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:52 pm
In conclusion, To condemn another Christian based on unclean foods or observances of days and religious festivals is simply wrong, and we are called not to do that. Over and over we are told that those who create such division are in the wrong. For one Christmas is sin, for another it is honoring God. Let us not violate each others consciousness, but understand these differences and honor them. I honor your convictions Kelly, and it is fine not to celebrate Christmas. But to condemn other Christians to hell based on something not outlined strictly in scripture is out of line.
December 24th, 2009 @ 12:53 pm
Hey folks,
It’s great to see the lively discussion here. Keep it up!
May I also offer a friendly reminder to keep things civil and mutually respectful, honoring the different convictions people have and allowing for diversity in non-essentials?
December 24th, 2009 @ 3:16 pm
A logical analysis of the earliest MSS (based on the implications of the research by Ben-Gurion Univ. Prof. of Linguistics” Elisha Qimron of Dead Sea scroll 4Q MMT; the analysis found here: http://www.netzarim.co.il) of “Matthew” proves that the historical first century Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh (the Messiah) from Nazareth was a Torah-teacher.
This is written in Torah: “”Do not do like the practice of the land… in which you dwelled, and do not do like the practice of the land… to which I bring you, and do not walk in their traditions. Do My mi•shәpât•im′ and watchguard My khuq•im′ to walk in them.” (wa-Yi•qәr•â′ 18.3).
This implies that according to the Creator’s words in Torah one shouldn’t celebrate xmas. It is forbidden to add and to remove mitzwot (commandments) from Torah (Devarim (Deuteronomy) 13:1-6 in Hebrew).
Anders Branderud
December 24th, 2009 @ 4:15 pm
Hello Dr. Brown, another wonderful program! The children were great, and which reminded me of Matthew 19:14: “But Jesus said, ‘Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.’”
Besides this, Christmas and Easter are a God-given opportunity to commemorate the birth and resurrection of Jesus.
December 24th, 2009 @ 4:57 pm
Hello all, Hello Kyle,
1 Cor. 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
This is my ongoing testimony. The more I grow up and learn the more I have to put away. The way gets narrower but more rewarding.
I used to do Xmas (no offense intended, I think the x is an abbreviation from Greek/Latin). I wrote a song called Don’t Ex the Christ out of Christmas. It went something like this:
People running too and fro with
the halls all decked with holly.
Buying all we can afford
to make this Christmas jolly.
But where is Jesus, where is He?
Don’t ex the Christ out of Christmas this year.
Don’t take Jesus out of your giving.
Put God first place in all that you do.
He’s your reason for living.
Don’t let Santa Clause take Jesus Place.
He’s really done not one little thing for you.
Jesus bled and died to pay for your sins.
He want’s you to come back home to Him….
It was a bit Keith Greenish with much conviction and seriousness. It was my way of proclaiming what I thought Xmas should be.
We never did a tree. We put a sign in our picture window that faced a busy street. It said, “Happy Birthday Jesus!” We decorated the whole house inside. The focus was a manger scene. We even put the wise men as far away as possible and left the baby Jesus out of the scene until the 25th so as to be accurate. We baked a birthday cake and sang happy birthday. We were very earnest and sincere. We put on an Xmas play with only the exact words in scripture so as to be very clear what we were celebrating….
We did not want any thing that detracted or distracted from the truth in our celebrations. So the more we knew of the truth, the more we refined our lives to match up with His life.
We stopped doing Xmas when our oldest child was about 10 or 12. He’s 25 now. We have 10 children and the last 5 of them have never celebrated an Xmas. They seem to be just fine with doing the Biblical holy days instead.
I do not feel that I have exed the Messiah out of Xmas because He was never there. But He has been with us even unto the ends of the earth so to speak, though. We still recognize His birth on the Yahweh given appointed time though. It is when he came to tabernacle among us.
I believe we have inherited lies from our fathers. (Am.2:4,1Pe. 1:18-19) (Church fathers included.) Our culture is actually what keeps Xmas going, and going worse and worse for that matter. I do not think that Messiah died to redeem certain days or practices. He died to redeem people. And redeemed people, out of gratitude should renew their minds with there Redeemer’s truth and submit their bodies to live it out. (Rom. 12:1-2)
So once I know to good and do it not to me it is sin. (Jam.4:17)
If I am not completely sure it is sin. (Rom. 14:23)
Some things to consider in this are:
Worship and Obey Yahweh only and don’t do things that the unbelievers come up with.
De. 12:30-32, Le. 18:1-5, Gal. 4:8-11
Keep Yahweh’s celebrations.
Le. 23:1-44, Col. 2:16-17, 1 Cor. 5:7-8
Yahweh does not change.
Pr. 29:18, Ho.4:6-9, Mal. 3:6, Heb.13:8, Mt. 5:17-19
Kyle, I see me in you. What ever you hand finds to do, do it with all your might.(Ec. 9:10) Be a lover of the truth not just a seeker of it.(2Thes.2:10-12) For sure, do not be a hearer only.(Jam.1:22-25)Don’t forget to do your duty. (Ec. 12:13, Lk.17:5-10, 1 Jn. 3:22)
December 24th, 2009 @ 5:19 pm
Kyle
I have condemned no one nor have I mentioned that anyone would be going to hell. So please don’t put words in my mouth. I seem to be getting under your skin by simply stating truth, so on that note I have said what I need to say so I am out of here, I won’t sit and aruge with someone who thinks we can redeem haloween
December 24th, 2009 @ 7:43 pm
Thanks! I’ll pass the good word on to the boys.
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:21 pm
OK, it’s now the eve of Christmas day. Rather than banter about on points of contention. Let’s emphsise on this next day the points that are agreed upon. Here’s a challenge, for the next day and into Shabbat, can the discussion be on the positives we agree upon and bask in His glory and that God, HaShem, has blessed us all with the birth of His Son.
Let His Light and Glory shine on every person of this earth, be they beleivers or not.
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:31 pm
Baruch Atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha-olam, asher kidshanu b’mitzvotav v’tzivanu l’hadlik ner shel Shabbat v’shel Yom Tov.
Blessed are You, Adonai our God, Sovereign of the Universe Who makes us holy with Your mitzvot and commands us to kindle the lights of the Sabbath and the holiday.
This blessing is for Sukkot, but we could probably adapt it for this season without dishonoring His name as the goal is to honor our God, the sovereign of the universe.
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:41 pm
Agreed, let’s thank God for letting us (those of us who are gentiles) into his kingdom.
Let’s thank God for his Messiah
Let’s thank God for uniting Jew and gentile
Let’s thank God for triumphing over the pagan idols
Let’s thank God for healing us
Let’s thank God for our salvation
Let’s thank God for his mercy
Baruch Haba B’shem Adonai, Yeshua Ha Moschiah
(I think I said it right… Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, Jesus our Messiah)
December 24th, 2009 @ 10:42 pm
I say no. I am not mean about it nor do I judge folks- no one will ever stand before me in judgment. But, I know the pagan roots, I read a year ago on a neo pagan website where the lady was mocking christians for claiming redemption from paganism adn yet using one of their main symbols, YHVH dealt with me as a teen some 30 years ago about santa being a classic textbook example of idolatry, adn I have read where Rambam claimed YESHUA cannot be MESSIAH because (one of two reasons he gives) because HE set up a system of worshiping someone other than YHVH. To me YESHUA is way too holy to be connected with such a tradition- as for me, I will never do it again. Shalom
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:38 am
I think that we should remember to love one another on the 25th of December. I believe that we should show love and compassion towards others in remembrance of God’s love towards us. God has many things against us, however, he chose to show kindness by sending his Son to redeem us.1 John 4:11-12 “Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.” I believe that in spite of the confusion that the world brings concerning Christmas, we should glorify our Savior and Lord by showing God’s love in our own lives. If we do this, we ultimately show this evil world that God does love us and is calling us to salvation.
December 25th, 2009 @ 9:52 am
I’m happy for everyone who can approach this topic in a light-hearted manner. For religious people this light-hearted approach is often impossible, and there have been family splits over this issue.
I personally believe that it is not appropriate to celebrate the birth of our Saviour on the birthday of all the pagan sun gods, December 25th, the day of the former childmass(acre). There are better dates to remember to love one another and our Creator.
In Zechariah 14:16-21 is written when and how to celebrate Yeshua’s coming in the flesh, because Yeshua wants to live IN US.
See also Revelation 21:3 (God’s tabernacle among men). God gave us all the relevant feasts. Why adding pagan stuff to it?
I also don’t believe by the way that Yeshua is our Easter bunny, I think He’s rather our passover lamb. Do we believe that the bible belongs to Christians? Why excluding the feasts then??
We say that these are the feasts of the Jews, but God says the feasts He gave are HIS feasts ( Leviticus 23:37). The question is whether we believe Him or not. It is not always appropriate to make a feast unto the LORD the way we think. See for example Exodus 32:5 “…and said, “Tomorrow shall be a feast to YHWH.” ”
Why do we need to play all the time? There is more to life than sticking to nonsense-traditions.
December 25th, 2009 @ 10:28 am
Ok, just to be clear: I said:
“Why do we need to play all the time? There is more to life than sticking to nonsense-traditions.”
I’m not condemning anyone who celebrates Christmas. I think though that I personally don’t have that much time to play around. Life is short, and I want to make the best of it
And it gives me very much liberty and blessings to concentrate on Yahweh and His word instead of man-made boundaries.
December 25th, 2009 @ 10:38 am
Thank you Erika for not condemning Christians to Hell based on this silly issue. As Paul said in Romans 14….
December 25th, 2009 @ 10:48 am
No, I’m not condemning them. I think though that it is much easier to “put on the Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and make no provision for the flesh, for its lusts” (Romans 13:14) when we celebrate Tabernacles instead of Christmas (and also if we leave away the pork, since it supports our fleshly desires).
For me this is absolutely NOT an issue of salvation, it is an issue of how to put on Yeshua the Messiah.
December 25th, 2009 @ 11:01 am
Oh yes, Kyle L. I’m also not celebrating my birthday – I think that this is such an odd habit. Having lighted candles for me and not being allowed to talk about important things… well, it’s playing around again. I’m now 34 years old, and I think that I have wasted enough time in my life. But I would start celebrating it immediately if I would be allowed by my guests to talk again
Shalom!
December 25th, 2009 @ 12:56 pm
What do we do with TRUTH?
We know that Yeshua was born in the fall, provable by Scriptures (Luke 1 and Chronicles).
We know that no one celebrated Yeshua’s birth.
We know that it was the roman church pope that instituted christmas.
We know that christmas adopted the winter saturnalia date and traditions.
We know that God says NOT to consider or learn of or adopt pagan traditions.
So, here are my questions…..
Does being SINCERE make something right?
Was God honored or happy when Israel was “celebrating a festival to the LORD” at the Golden Calf incident?
Do God’s people substitute celebrating christmas for celebrating the Feasts of the LORD?
How does celebrating christmas provoke the Jews to Jealousy (the reason why the gospel came to the gentiles Rom 11:11) and provoke Jews to obey God’s commandments?
Would americans or anyone celebrate christmas if there wasn’t a big gift exchange? would children and parents be so emotionally attached to christmas?
Does celebrating christmas promote a lie…that Jesus was born on christmas?
These are issues that I wrestle with….I feel like a fish swimming upstream!
December 25th, 2009 @ 1:20 pm
Hi Kyle L. , this is me again. So regarding Titus 3:8, I thought that Dr. Brown wanted us to debate if we should celebrate Christmas or not. So I hope that I won’t engage in a foolish dispute right now.
Concerning make up – I’m not using it for health reasons.
I have one question for you Kyle L. : Would it be a problem for you to celebrate “Christmas” or Yeshua’s birth (I would rather celebrate His life) on a different date and without all the traditional Christmas stuff? If yes, then wy? Would you need all that stuff in order to glorify Yeshua? Could you imagine for example to celebrate it on July 15th (I’m not saying that this is what we should do) and without any green or glittery stuff in the house and without all the “Christmas-presents”? If not, then WHY not?
December 25th, 2009 @ 1:53 pm
Hello all, Hello Kyle,
1 Cor. 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
This is my ongoing testimony. The more I grow up and learn the more I have to put away. The way gets narrower but more rewarding.
I used to do Xmas (no offense intended, I think the x is an abbreviation from Greek/Latin). I wrote a song called Don’t Ex the Christ out of Christmas. It went something like this:
People running too and fro with
the halls all decked with holly.
Buying all we can’t afford
to make this Christmas jolly.
But where is Jesus, where is He?
Don’t ex the Christ out of Christmas this year.
Don’t take Jesus out of your giving.
Put God first place in all that you do.
He’s your reason for living.
Don’t let Santa Clause take Jesus Place.
He’s really done not one little thing for you.
Jesus bled and died to pay for your sins.
He want’s you to come back home to Him….
It was a bit Keith Greenish with much conviction and seriousness. It was my way of proclaiming what I thought Xmas should be.
We never did a tree. We put a sign in our picture window that faced a busy street. It said, “Happy Birthday Jesus ” We decorated the whole house inside. The focus was a manger scene. We even put the wise men as far away as possible and left the baby Jesus out of the scene until the 25th so as to be accurate. We baked a birthday cake and sang happy birthday. We were very earnest and sincere. We put on an Xmas play with only the exact words in scripture so as to be very clear what we were celebrating….
We did not want any thing that detracted or distracted from the truth in our celebrations. So the more we knew of the truth, the more we refined our lives to match up with His life.
We stopped doing Xmas when our oldest child was about 10 or 12. He’s 25 now. We have 10 children and the last 5 of them have never celebrated an Xmas. They seem to be just fine with doing the Biblical holy days instead. We had good family times then. We have good family times now.
I do not feel that I have exed the Messiah out of Xmas because He was never there. But He has been with us even unto the ends of the earth so to speak, though. We still recognize His birth on the Yahweh given appointed time now. It is when he came to tabernacle among us.
I believe we have inherited lies from our fathers. (Am.2:4,1Pe. 1:18-19) (Church fathers included.) Our culture is actually what keeps Xmas going, and going worse and worse for that matter. I do not think that Messiah died to redeem certain days or practices. He died to redeem people. And redeemed people, out of gratitude should renew their minds with there Redeemer’s truth and submit their bodies to live it out. (Rom. 12:1-2)
So once I know to good and do it not to me it is sin. (Jam.4:17)
If I am not completely sure it is sin. (Rom. 14:23) See I like Romans 14 too: )
Some things to consider in this are:
Worship and Obey Yahweh only and don’t do things that the unbelievers come up with.
De. 12:30-32, Le. 18:1-5, Gal. 4:8-11
Keep Yahweh’s celebrations.
Le. 23:1-44, Col. 2:16-17, 1 Cor. 5:7-8
Yahweh does not change.
Pr. 29:18, Ho.4:6-9, Mal. 3:6, Heb.13:8, Mt. 5:17-19
Kyle, I see me in you. What ever you hand finds to do, do it with all your might.(Ec. 9:10) Be a lover of the truth not just a seeker of it.(2Thes.2:10-12) For sure, do not be a hearer only.(Jam.1:22-25)Don’t forget to do your duty. (Ec. 12:13, Lk.17:5-10, 1 Jn. 3:22)
Shalom to everyone!
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:02 pm
@Kyle, no one is condemning anyone to hell if they celebrate christmas – and you know that. That is an immature approach to your argument. You are also using Romans 14 in an incorrect manner. Paul is writing about those who judge people for keeping the appointed times of G-d, not christmas! And all this talk about not judging one another – please give me a break. I could use this reasoning to justify fornication or stealing. Would that be acceptable to everyone? oh no, all of you would be pulling out your best 10 commandment scriptures against me.
The simple fact is that Jesus never asked us to celebrate his birth. He asked us to remember his death – and to do so at the time of his death, Passover.
I think those of you who get upset over this debate do so because you know it’s not a godly celebration. Crack open a book and learn your history, please! the whole world is groaning for the maturing of the sons of God!
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:23 pm
To add a bit of my personal testimony: I think that I still today would celebrate Christmas with my whole heart and would not have given it up, just because someone had told me that this feast is not Godly. I would not have known better. And probably I still would have gone to heaven with it.
What made me change my mind was when I got to know the REAL stuff – the feast of Yahweh. This is real meat – and I was sooo hungry!!!
I had the opportunity to stay in Israel during a winter and I totally overslept Christmas!! Someone had visited me in the evening of December 24th and kept teasing me for half an hour why I wouldn’t understand that this was a special day for gift-giving. Only after half an hour did I remember that the evening of December 24th is a special day outside of Israel. I myself was surprised that I had forgotten it so easily.
The lesson is that if you have the meat, you don’t miss the milk
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:39 pm
I’m not trying to be mean, I’m just asserting what I’ve found to be true. Romans 14 does describe what you say, but we find two issues being addressed here. Unclean items and the observance of certain days. These are certainly related concepts to the issue at hand. If Paul were alive today I’m sure he would say that it is declared a clean day if observed properly ect…. I don’t think it an issue of life and death.
As for the condemnation for hell statement, I just fear sin and know it is something to get rid of. I know none of you have said that Christians will go to hell if they celebrate Christmas, but others have.
You asked me questions though, and I’m happy to answer. Keep in mind I’m only 17 and I don’t really have s ay yet on what my family celebrates. When I have my own family, thigns will be different. No santa, not sure on gifts ect… But I could celebrate if independent of the “Christmas tradition.” Of course! I do enjoy the songs, gift giving ect… it’s nice to be around my family that I never see, but those are merely little things celebrating the main event, which is the birth of the savior. We must keep in mind why all this is going on, which is a celebration of God.
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
I know this is off topic, but does it snow in Israel Erika?
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:40 pm
And where can I find info on the feasts?
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:47 pm
Oh Kyle L. , so you are only half my age! Well, I forgive you, at 17 I too loved to celebrate Christmas… but life has more to offer, believe me
Messiah Yeshua is always the center, so you won’t lose a lot when you consider to make a shift 
I stayed in Jerusalem that winter, and in Jerusalem it does not snow each winter, but sometimes it does, dependant on the temperatures. Most of the time its rainy.
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:54 pm
I know it does, I’m only taking my first steps. I do look forward to learning about the feasts, and when I have my family one day I look forward to celebrating them. To be honest, traditional Christmas really doesn’t hold the same “magical feelings” it used to. It’s not as good as it used to be, and I suppose it really get’s monotonous as time goes on.
God bless you Erika, this’ll be the last time I can post for a while, thank you for telling me a little about Israel, I want to go there one day!
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:56 pm
Not sure why “I know it does” is in the first sentence… it’s not supposed to be there. Huh…
December 25th, 2009 @ 2:56 pm
Hi Kyle L., I’m a native German-speaker, but I heard that these English materials should be good:
“Feasts of the Lord (4 DVDs, Study Guide, Bonus DVD)” by Mark Biltz
“The Messianic Church Arising” by Robert Heidler (Book)
Be blessed, my brother!
December 25th, 2009 @ 5:30 pm
Hi Kyle, this is me again. I thought that this website could also be interesting for you:
http://www.apostlebailey.com/
I don’t know all the stuff I passed on here in detail, I think it is good, but in general it is also good to apply 1.Tessalonians 5:21
“Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.”
It is important to distinguish between the bible and man-made traditions, for example the Oral Law in Judaism. The so-called “Oral Law” can be good sometimes, but it is not a binding commandment from God of course. Let’s say the washing of hands before a meal. It is good, but not a commandment from God. God only commanded the washing of hands in certain situations during the Temple service. (But of course you are still allowed to wash your hands as often as you like…just to give an example of what I’m saying).
We should not end up serving man again.
Again – be blessed and have a great time, dear brother!
December 25th, 2009 @ 5:47 pm
Matthew 5:17-19
” “Don’t think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”
Matthew 15:1-3
“Then Pharisees and scribes came to Yeshua from Jerusalem, saying, 15:2 “Why do your disciples disobey the tradition of the elders? For they don’t wash their hands when they eat bread.”
15:3 He answered them, “Why do you also disobey the commandment of God because of your tradition? ”
So what is the problem here? The Oral Law (the tradition of the elders)!!
December 25th, 2009 @ 10:54 pm
Kyle,
Recently read somewhere there are like 450 Messianic congregactions around the world with around 300+ in the US. I have no idea where you live, but there are ways of checking on Google to locate congratations in your region or local area.
Good luck on your journey.
December 26th, 2009 @ 12:30 am
When Norway became among the fold of belief in Yeshua it happened over a timeframe where their pagan gods first were placed on the outside pinnacles of post and beam construction churches, with the Christ reference symbols within. This drew in those outside, to the clarity of the message inside. Next, the outside symbols were slowly replaced as Christ became living within the community by his own references of symbol.
On Mars Hill Paul referred to the statue erected by then pagans “to the unknown God.” His remarks summarized in Acts there, of his work there among the Gentile nations is telling: Acts 17: 26 “From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us”. There is a relationship between nations, God’s placement of people in them, and times and places for their exposure to truth and grace.
The heart of God in this matter where Paul gives intention related to national placement is clear enough, to connect to lead folks to Jesus. As we well know, once the Holy Spirit is involved, the conversion of the heart and mind transforms the person from pagan to adopted child of God, and seeker of the Way of Jesus. Even after the initial acceptance of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, it may take a lifetime to convert the soul to a place where the love of God given us in Christ becomes a motivation, pursuit, and realization for the then appointed “ambassadors” of Jesus to others around and about the nations.
My take on Christmas is not as literal as some here, being married to a Norsk wife, whose heart is warmed and stirred by “advent” season leading up to the coming of the Christ Child for all of us. For her, placing her traditions as reminders of the coming, and then born Messiah, the exact date or its origins is moot. It is the focus involved, the heart, and the observance which leads up to the Joy of the Advent of the Messiah brought to the Nations, including her own.
When she grew up in the 1970s her nation included teaching on Christ and Christianity in the public schools. This lead her eventually to a personal belief and focus. Up in that north land, certaily snow and tree decorations are associated with their observance and focus on the season of Advent. This reminder and dedication is certainly not errant in spirit or care, permeating a Nation’s consciousness for at least three weeks, how is that the wrong intention, motive, and dedication?
Certainly the Norsk who first built the above-described Stave churches were erected their own “statues” to the then unknown God among their national family, so to speak.
December 26th, 2009 @ 2:16 pm
So are you scrooges and grinches going to show up here on Easter too? LOL
Somehow, I get the impression that that Satan, screwtape and wormwood are less than thrilled with the idea that Christians have appropriated Christmas and Easter as a celebration of the birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which gives opportunity every year, to preach Jesus Christ, which draws many of the unsaved to Churches to hear His message, and which gives opportunity for Christian movies to be played around the clock on TV. So be careful whose side you are on.
December 27th, 2009 @ 6:32 am
Richard Coords, you can celebrate Christmas and Easter as long as you wish to do – and I won’t condemn you for that.
I think though that it is more appropriate to stick with the bible than with other stuff.
If we believe that Yeshua is our passover lamb, we won’t need Ishtar to get involved with this. It will just twist our message.
December 27th, 2009 @ 8:31 am
Our message is not we ourselves, but Him, and what He accomplished and offers, so, Christmas is founded in such. Like religion, it can be distorted or compromised, but the root of Jesse holds true.
December 27th, 2009 @ 12:51 pm
Christmas is founded in WHAT??? Did you really look that up Jabez?? I find it very sad that the message of Yeshua is distorted by Christmas. Again, the bible lines it out very clearly how we should celebrate Yeshua in Zechariah 14:16-21.
We should be a living tabernacle of God – as also Paul says it!
Yes, the root of Yesse can hold true despite of Christmas and Easter, but most of the time Christmas and Easter have killed off the root of Yesse.
The true root of Yesse you will find in the biblical feasts, which again are not the “Jewish feasts” but God’s feasts ( Leviticus 23:37)!
If you want to look up the roots of Christmas you can do so – but these are no biblical roots! Yeshua fulfilled and still will fulfill ALL the biblical feasts – but He NEVER fulfilled or will fulfill Christmas and Easter!
I think that right now we have come to a point in time where we can decide if we want to stick to the good old times of the kingdom of Saul and join him like Jonathan in the battle field, or if we are prepared to live with David in the caves, because there is a future that we anticipate.
December 27th, 2009 @ 3:11 pm
Erika,
Thanks for your post, but it did not address my question: Where are the events of Rev 12 identified as “the great tribulation”? How can you distinguish those events from John 16:33 (promising “tribulation” to all of us in this world) based on NT vocabulary? It’s important not to read other ideas into the text or to base doctrine on the Book of Revelation alone.
December 28th, 2009 @ 2:06 pm
Roger,
A few days ago you linked to a site alleging to give the exact date of Yeshua’s birth. Do you realize that many of the statements made are quite unsupportable, while others are contrary to what the best scholarship would indicate? I don’t have time to debate that issue here, but I thought I should at least make an “official” comment stating my strong skepticism about the reliability of the information cited and posted.
December 28th, 2009 @ 9:46 pm
I thought Jesus did fulfill the prophecies surrounding His conception and birth. If He didn’t, then I have wonder what all the fuss is about the baby in the manger. I don’t know about you all, but I wouldn’t put the nativity in the closet to accommodate pagan gods. I wouldn’t give pagan gods a minute let alone a day. If pagan god worshipers have a problem with my celebrating my Lord on any day well I will just have to love and bless them all the more.
December 29th, 2009 @ 8:43 am
To Rebecca: I think people are doing this with their best intentions, but it is a tragedy that they accomodate this precious event of Yeshua’s coming to earth in the wrong building.
Matthew 7:24-27
” “Everyone who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who built his house on rock. 7:25 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, but it did not collapse because it had been founded on rock. 7:26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 7:27 The rain fell, the flood came, and the winds beat against that house, and it collapsed; it was utterly destroyed!” ”
In these days we do need a solid foundation, because the storm will come.
December 29th, 2009 @ 9:49 am
It is true there are people that celebrate Christmas or rather Christ’s coming who do not know what and who they are celebrating. That does not mean that those who do know who and what they are celebrating should go hide away. We should take everyday as a day to celebrate our Savior. We should take every opportunity to spread the gospel. Everyday belongs to God. The thing that turns people off from Christ is unloving behavior especially from those who claim to follow Him. If a building was once a strip club would that turn you away from making it into a Church?
December 29th, 2009 @ 10:34 am
What about if the building is still a strip club? Do we not bring the gospel to them? Isn’t that what Jesus came to do? Jesus did not come for the righteous but for the lost. Didn’t He go into the house of the dishonest tax collector?
December 29th, 2009 @ 11:23 am
I still remember when Jesus came to my house.
December 31st, 2009 @ 2:08 pm
Erika, You seem to hold a lot of opinions without the cultural reference I cited. There will be a history in each and every culture, which will have its own meaning of linkage to Jesus, and develop its own observations, in addition to what is written of Biblical feasts and festivals. Ever read of missionaries in So. America who were martyred? To reach those under this world with the next often requires Paul’s wisdom of Mars Hill. I’d suggest a good read of the Acts of the Apostles/Holy Spirit, in addtion to a read of other parts of scripture. Your expectations will not always be met, even by them. After all, they were the guarantors of the authenticity of the message, the carriers of truth and grace to the Nations, and the later clarifiers of what aspects of the Law would be carried to the Gentiles (see Acts 15 and 16). Whatever our conscience permits, the Apostles put little legality into the mix, in minimally retaining any requirements of the Law. For some this will never be resolved, though the early first church and eyewitnesses acted to quickly resolve such matters as you apparently keep up by opinioning over the word.
Like it or not we have the scriptures and church cultural history as realities of the faith.
December 31st, 2009 @ 3:33 pm
Jabez, I’m really not mad at anyone who does not agree with me. But let’S look at Acts 15:19-21
” “Therefore my judgment is that we don’t trouble those from among the Gentiles who turn to God, 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from the pollution of idols, from sexual immorality, from what is strangled, and from blood. 15:21 For Moses from generations of old has in every city those who proclaim him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” ”
So Jabez – I really don’t want to trouble you – I just would say that since today “Moses does not have in every city those who proclaim him, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath” it is necessary for us to learn to read again Yeshua’s message in context – which is the bible of Paul’s time. Paul never founded a new religion called “Christianity” – in fact today`s Christianity was founded by Constantine three hundred years after Paul.
But if you choose to go by the inheritied traditions, you are absolutley free to do so Jabez.
December 31st, 2009 @ 3:45 pm
” …Christianity was founded by Constantine three hundred years after Paul”
Are you sure about that? Please clarify your statement because it sounds like Christianity started before Constantine.
Acts 11:26 “and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”
Acts 26:28 “Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”
1 Peter 4:16 “Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in this matter.”
December 31st, 2009 @ 3:58 pm
Yes Ben, I see those verses. The followers of Yeshua were called Christians first at Antioch and then also in other places. But it was most likely a derogaory Greek term for them. Dr. Brown lays that out very well in his DVD teaching series “Jewish Roots of Christianity”.
Today’s Christianity is VERY different from the Christianity of that time. Back then the biggest debate was if the Gentiles first need to become Jews in order to be able to get saved or not. THAT was the great debate in Acts 15.
Three hundred years later Constantine as a good politician introduced Christianity as state religion, but also began to call the feasts of the LORD and the Sabbath “Jewish festivals” and punished everyone with capital punishment who still observed them. That’s how the separation of Jews and Christians came about.
January 4th, 2010 @ 3:13 am
Erika, Your logic of the quotation emphasized leaves off Peter’s discourse made prior to the later section of Acts 15 which you quoted. AC 15:6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Note Peter’s exclaimation of how one is saved, of no distinction between us [Jewish believers], and them [Gentile belivers] and brings to bear on the reconciliation of peoples vs. 10 the “yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear.” FYI I am a Messianic Jew as to conviction who personally appreciates observations of the Jewish calendar, and also one free in the grace of the Messiah of the break down the barriers between Jew and Gentile (read Ephesians, cited below, for the idea); whereby I am not compelled to place the “yoke” on anyone which Peter stated “neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear” of conformity to the traditions of Law being somehow a vital context to a celebration of the birth of Yeshua [no matter if the date is not exact] and related gift giving to others in the spirit of the gift given humankind.
The commandments of Yeshua are not burdensome, as were those Peter cited as existing in influence prior to the Visitation of Yeshua.
You end up the last year with your comment on “the inherited traditions” and freedom, while being unclear if you mean those of Moshe or those of any converted Gentile nation’s own developed related cultural context. Constantine did not influence the founding of faith in Norway, for your information, except, perhaps by the European calendar eventually adopted in time. Norway had its own history of establishment of the message of faith in the Nation–unique and purposeful in its own context of meaning and development.
As a Messianic married to a Norwegian, having read Peter’s thoughts settling the statement you quoted with a different meaning than you permitted, I find the relevance of Ephesians far more telling of our faith and its foundations being of a greater context which Yeshua ushered in. This is contextualized indeed when he spoke of the Way from John 13:31 through the early 16th chapter as to the changes He granted by his Visitation, a believer’s adoption and election, and sending of the Holy Spirit.
Here the Godhead is far less tradition bound than you permit as to believed the Hebrew calendar values you cite, and more transencendal than your interpretation of context has allowed. John is aware from the getgo that Yeshua helped make the whole wide world and universe, and was Lord of history and creation who offers New Creation, where the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love, which is neither about the traditions of those of the circumscision, nor their lack.
A new and living way’s interpretation as to Yeshua’s religious observation future intention is captured by EPH 2:11, as to establishing faith’s purpose extending to all, in all, beyond traditions, and yet too as honored by such. “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called ‘uncircumcised’ by those who call themselves ‘the circumcision’ (that done in the body by the hands of men)– 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
EPH 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by ABOLISHING in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. HIS PURPOSE was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to RECONCILE BOTH OF THEM to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we BOTH HAVE ACCESS TO THE FATHER BY ONE SPIRIT.
EPH 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. [THIS IS THE TRUE CONTEXT OF YESHUA'S RELIGIOUS FOUNDATION BEYOND THE TRADITIONS] 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit….3:3 the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it HAS NOW BEEN REVEALED by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that THROUGH THE GOSPEL THE GENTILES ARE HEIRS TOGETHER WITH ISRAEL, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
So, whether observant of this or that tradition, when pointing to the Christ, both are observable and valuable to faith. Your cited traditions are no more or less valuable to faith than those pointing the Way in Northern Europe’s own traditions in the faith.
January 4th, 2010 @ 3:50 am
If you want to know the exact date of Yeshua’s birth, you have to first look at Yochanan the Baptiste’s birth date, and go from there. Also use 10 month cycle from the Hebraic calendar instead of the Gregorian calendar cycle of 9 months.
I do not condemn people for celebrating on Dec 25th. I know that those people who do, are just not either interested in changing a tradition they have clung to for years, or are not versed on when he was actually born. I do roll my eyes when I see those bumper stickers, “Put the Christ back in Christmas” however…
January 4th, 2010 @ 8:37 am
Hi Jabez, you make a lot of good points, and of course Yeshua’s yoke is not burdensome, simply because through Yeshua the Law is written in our hearts, not only in our brain (Isaiah 31:33)
What about Matthew5:17-20
” “Don’t think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. ”
So Jabez, have heaven and earth passed already??
Again – just to be clear: Have heaven and earth passed already??
We ONLY can fulfill the law through Yeshua – and history still has to be fulfilled by Yeshua.
The question is what Jesus/Yeshua we are talking about. The one who abolishes the law or who fulfills it. Only ONE can be the true Messiah.
I think today there is a lot of confusion also within Judaism and Messianic Judaism about what the law of God is and what the law of man is.
God’s law will not be burdensome for us when Yeshua writes it in our hearts, but man’s law has to go. When I’m talking about the “Law” I’m not talking about the oral law and that kind of traditions – PLEASE NOTE THAT!!
Keeping the Law can save nobody – that is clear, and that is what Peter is stating Acts 15:6-11
I think that this is the point were we don’t understand each other Jabez. Of course I never say that keeping the law will bring us to heaven or “save” us! Clear??
If not, I’m repeating it again: Of course I never say that keeping the law will bring us to heaven or “save” us!! Clear now??
But it is the true sign of God’s children that they love to do the will of God. Clear?
What do you think about Psalm 119? Do you think that this Psalm has no place in the new covenant anymore?
I think that this Psalm has its place MAINLY in the new covenant.
You are talking about the fact that we don’t need the law in order to get saved.
I’m talking about the fact that WHEN we are saved, we HAVE TO sort out the leaven in our lives and we HAVE TO get God’s law written in our hearts if we want to be a holy people.
See Phillipians 2:12-13
“So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.”
There is salvation and even more salvation. The even more salvation we get when we sort out all lawlessness of our lives.
January 4th, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
The Torah can’t be the heavy yoke. I is not too hard for us.
Deut. 30
11 ¶ For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?’
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
We were created unto the good works that were before ordained (in Torah) that we should walk in them.
Eph. 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
The ancient paths of Torah is where we find rest for our souls.
Jer. 6
13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 ¶ Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
20 To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
21 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
There is no true peace in proclaiming that Torah is optional. It is not what saves us but it is the law of the kingdom of heaven. The good works of Torah causes our light to shine and bring glory to YHWH.
Mat. 5
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Y’shua is the word of YHWH made flesh. He came to do YHWH’s will perfectly. He asks us to follow Him. His yoke is easy. It is obeying YHWH from a purified heart. It is hard to keep Torah when it is a bunch of rules on a stone tablet.
Mat. 11
25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Y’shua is coming again. Let us not forget the Torah and be cursed.
Mal. 4
4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
It seems Paul was worried about those that went back to the pagan days of worship.
Gal. 4
8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
We need to purify our lives by casting off the old traditions that do not agree with YHWH’s word.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Transgression of Torah is still sin. If we have been made righteous by Messiah we walk in his righteous Torah.
1 Cor. 10
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
2 Cor. 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 ¶ Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
We need to come out of any pagan worship and cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and the spirit. It is not about just having our “hearts right.”
Re. 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Jam. 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I am persuaded better things of you, though I thus speak. Let us walk in the good works that YHWH prepared for us. We do not need to guess what those works are. They are very nigh unto us. In our hearts and in our mouth. It is the word of YHWH. The whole word of YHWH, not bits and pieces.
Deut. 8
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Mat. 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Shalom
January 5th, 2010 @ 6:09 am
When you take a look at some of the ancient Aramaic Matthew gospels, you read in Matthew 23:1-4 (after translating it into English):
“Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples, 23:2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have sat themselves on Moses’ seat. 23:3 All things therefore whatever he (Moses) tells you to observe, observe and do, but don’t do their (the Pharisees) works; for they say, and don’t do. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them.”
To “sit oneself in Moses seat” means to claim having Moses’ authority. That means that the scribes and the Pharisees have claimed to have Moses authority.
Verse 3: Therefore we should do what Moses tells us to do without transferring Moses’ autority to the scribes and the Pharisees (as they would like to have it).
Verse 4: What is now the HEAVY BURDEN here Yeshua is talking about? The law of Moses that we should obey according to verse 3? Absolutely NOT!!! Yeshua is talking here about all the rules and regulations the Pharisees have made up in order to control their flock and maintain their self-proclaimed authority on the seat of Moses – about that what is known today as the “Oral Law” and is referred to in the New Testament as the “tradition of the elders”.
January 5th, 2010 @ 9:56 pm
Erika, You missed the context and therefore the point, for, Yeshua came as Messiah to awaiting and observant natural Israel, the constext for the Gentiles was already delt with in Acts 15, and in Ephesians quoted for you, as misunderstood. Context is vital to understanding what Yeshua said, to whom he was sent, and to whom the Apostles–after the gift of the Spirit–were charged sent.
January 5th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm
Reasts and festivals then given to natural Israel were also placed in their own placement by Paul, Peter, and other letter writers and characters of the Acts of the Apostles.
January 5th, 2010 @ 11:37 pm
Erika, it is also apparent that your “context” mentioned of Yeshua applies to his coming to his people, sent as Messiah, and officially refused: to the Jews. What He then said about the law applied to his audience of the Sermon on the Mount, in Israel, which you quoted. This is putting on notice those under the Law of Moshe. The context of most of the letters, with the real exception of James and Hebrews seems to be primarily to Gentile believers, i.e. those among the nations only bound by the Jerusalem Council;s slim but vital context of clarifications of the law.
Kile has adequately represented Rom 14, and Paul speaks in Rom 9-11 about the peoplle, his people, of natural Israel. Clearly here is a plan of redemption in time, where the position he gives in Eph 2, as I cited above will have its full measure of the dividing wall being broken down for the whole people of God due to the message of the Gospel coming full circle, with the Jealousy of Jewish people being provoked by the truth and grace of Yeshua (for there is no other name by which folks can be saved, male or femaile, Jew or Greek, etc.).
The Apostles were sent from the source, with the Holy Spirit’s power into the Nations. The requirements Paul, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, etc. put on the nations was not to conform to the feasts and festivals, whcih Kile has adequately addressed. The Marks Hill statement of Paul places all peoples in time and places by God’s design for God’s own redemptive intention (as past quoted, as stated clearly). Celebrating a calendar date in EU history which permits advent observation–of the coming of the Christ (Gk), or Messiah (Hb) is not adverse to the intentions of redemption, for, God looks at the heart. What is warmly held in awe by many Gentile believers about Him has little to do with the matters you have raised, for, folks simply observe their own national traditions as Paul spoke of on Mars Hill indirectly.
I have quoted that the requirements of the law were “abolish[ed].” other than those of the Jerusalem Council. Even so, we would not know what, for example, constituted sexual immorality (alluded to lby the Jerusalem decision) without the Law; it is in scripture and is needed to understand the requirements, for example too, of the more far reaching 10 commandments, which clarify all moral consequence in God’s eyes.
However, the matter of these days, freedom of choice as Jewish believers, or if one wishes to cast such an allieance with them in the sense that Ruth has in the past, as a Gentile, honors the God of the Patriarchs, so be it. The same freedom must be recongmized in the choices of a citizen of a Gentile Nation going through the observations and pronouncements of remembrance of the Advent calendar which those faithful in Europe have adopted by their own well formed traditions over time.
We also have the phenomena of what our Lord is doing to restore, and revive natural Israel. Asher Intrater’s latest update (www.reviveisrael.org), of the resident Messianic community of Israel, has made significant prophetic announcements in the Spirit as to current restoration, the revivial of Israel per Rom 9-11’s intentions, the Holiness plan of the New Covenant for Israel, and the symbiotic reciprocal relationship between Messianic believers and Gentile believers as to carrying out such plans the Father has determined to come to pass in the present season.
I feel then that it is not unprofitable to honor the feasts and festivals in the context of what those prophetic updates disclose, and the unity of the whole people of God, however, not as being in any way superior to the New and Living Way and its results already active among the Gentile Nations. Ideally it is the season for the whole people of God to act in concert together regarding the full intentions of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
January 6th, 2010 @ 12:04 am
Erika, it is also apparent that your “context” mentioned of Yeshua originally applies to his coming to his people, as sent as Messiah, and officially refused: to the Jews. What He then said about the law applied to his audience of the Sermon on the Mount, in Israel, which you quoted. This is putting on notice those under the Law of Moshe. The context of most of the letters, with the real exception of James and Hebrews. seems to be primarily to Gentile believers, i.e. those among the nations only bound by the Jerusalem Council’s slim but vital context of clarifications of the law for Gentiles.
Kile has adequately represented Rom 14, and Paul speaks in Rom 9-11 about the people, his people, of natural Israel. Clearly here is a plan of redemption in time, where the position he gives in Eph 2, as I cited above, will have its full measure of the dividing wall being broken down for the whole people of God’s future citizenship due to the message of the Gospel coming full circle, with the Jealousy of Jewish people being provoked by the truth and grace of Yeshua (for there is no other name by which folks can be saved, male or femaie, Jew or Greek, etc.).
The Apostles were sent from the source, with the Holy Spirit’s power into the Nations. The requirements Paul, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, etc. put on the nations was not to conform to the feasts and festivals, whcih Kile has adequately addressed. The Mars Hill statement of Paul places all peoples in time and places by God’s design for God’s own redemptive intention (as past quoted, as stated clearly). Celebrating a calendar date in EU history which permits advent observation–of the coming of the Christ (Gk), or Messiah (Hb) is not adverse to the intentions of redemption, for, God looks at the heart. In such nations there are over 12 days of Christmas once it commences as well, because of faithful traditions. What is warmly held in awe by many Gentile believers about Him then has little to do with the matters you have raised, for, folks simply observe their own national faith history traditions as Paul spoke of on Mars Hill indirectly.
I have quoted in recent posts that the requirements of the law were “abolish[ed],” other than those of the Jerusalem Council. Even so, we would not know what, for example, constituted sexual immorality (alluded to by the Jerusalem leader’s decision) without the Law; it is in scripture and is needed to understand the requirements of God; we have for example too, the more far reaching 10 commandments, which clarify all moral consequence in God’s eyes. Citing regard of such is not ungodly or strictly legally regarded.
However, the matter of these calendar days, freedom of choice as Jewish believers (or if one wishes to cast such an allieance with them in the sense that Ruth has in the past, as a Gentile) honors the God of the Patriarchs, so be it. The same freedom must be recongnized in the choices of a citizen of a Gentile Nation going through the observations and pronouncements of remembrance of the Advent calendar devotions which those faithful in Europe have adopted by their own well formed historical Christian faith traditions over time.
We also have the phenomena of what our Lord is now doing to restore, and revive natural Israel. Asher Intrater’s latest update (www.reviveisrael.org), of the resident Messianic community of Israel, has made significant prophetic announcements in the Spirit as to current restoration, the revivial of Israel per Rom 9-11’s intentions, the Holiness plan of the New Covenant for Israel, and the symbiotic reciprocal relationship between Messianic believers and Gentile believers as to carrying out such plans the Father has determined to come to pass in the present season.
I feel then that it is not unprofitable to honor the feasts and festivals in the context of what those prophetic updates disclose, and the unity of the whole people of God–however, not as being in any way superior to the New and Living Way spoken of of the New Covenant in Hebrews and its results already active among the Gentile Nations. Ideally it is the season for the whole people of God to act in concert together regarding the full intentions of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Let us not forbid what the Spirit has permitted.
January 6th, 2010 @ 11:52 am
Jabez,
What do you do with Paul being worried about the Galatians going back to celebrating on the pagan days.
Gal. 4
8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
What do you do with Paul saying gentiles are graffed into the Israel’s olive tree and that they should very humble about it?
Rom. 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
What do you do with Paul saying gentiles are saved unto the good works that were before ordained that we should walk in?
Eph. 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
What do you do with John saying that transgression of the Torah is still sin?
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
What do you do with Paul saying that faith doesn’t make the law of no effect, but actually makes the law to stand?
Rom. 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
What do you do with YHWH saying that the same law applies to both the Israelite and the gentile?
Nub. 15
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30 ¶ But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
What do you do with Paul saying the same thing as above about sinning on purpose after we know better?
Heb. 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
What do you do with Paul saying that the Tanach is for our instruction in righteous living? And that it fully furnishes us to all good works?
2 Tim. 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
What do you do with these things? How do they confirm your doctrine?
One more question. What law or ordinace or statute or judgement found in the “Old Testament” is a wall between the Jew and the gentile?
Shalom
January 6th, 2010 @ 12:10 pm
Thank you Bo,
I think it is even enough to just quote 1. John 3:4
This is a never changing principle. Constantine has brought a lot of confusion into the Christian world, and it is a man-made wall, the wall between Messianic Jews and Christians.
January 6th, 2010 @ 1:00 pm
Jabez, your comments wonderfully embody the spirit and essence of the apostolic declarations concerning the Gentiles in Acts 15. Thanks in Christ, from a Gentile believer
January 6th, 2010 @ 2:12 pm
Timothy,
Do you think that the four prohibitions in Acts 15 are all that gentile believers are supposed to adhere to?
Did you notice that vs. 21 basically tells the new believers to go to synagogue to hear more of the word of YHWH? How were they to grow if they were excluded from hearing the word? How could they get in if they were making themselves abominable with things offered to Idols, eating meat with blood in it and committing immorality? (Lev. 17:10-18:30) Paul says in Romans 11 that the gentiles were grafted into Israel’s olive tree and that they could be cut off. These new believers would be “cut off” (excommunicated) from Israel by partaking in these abominations.
In Paul’s day the only scripture was what we call the “Old Testament.” He said of these scriptures, ” All scripture is inspired and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”
It seems that the new believers were to start with the four prohibitions and then grow into the rest of scriptural righteousness and holiness. They could not be expected to do everything all at once.
Shalom
January 6th, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
Num. 15
29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
30 ¶ But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
January 7th, 2010 @ 3:59 pm
Bo and Erika,
It is simple enough. The four weeks of advent in no way celebrate a pagan, but Jesus the Christ come for the appointed nations, in their appointed times, for inclusion and acceptance in the beloved. Ephesians 2 and the Mars Hill declaration, as well as Acts 15’s council clearly deal with these. Your focus is off. Focus on Jesus and you will understand the value of these.
As for the law, Yeshua was sent only to the Jews and addressed many of their errors, especially as cited in the Sermon on the Mount. Read John 13:31 through early 16 to understand the more universal applications of the sent Holy Spirit to all believers. If you wish a Messianic emphasis, read Levi Matthew, written to the Jewish people, as well as Romans 9-11.
The Torah was given to the Jewish nation, the Noahide law covenant given to all peoples, and, of course, according the Hebrews the New and Living Way was extended to all believers, with the barrier being broken down between these, as illustrated in Eph 2 and 3. Unless you are a Jewish believer, and then only by choice, does their own calendar become meaningful. We have freedom in the Messiah.
As far as what else we adhere to, there are many more commandments given by Yeshua and the Apostles in the New Testament than those in the Tenach. The Legal requirements of the law were abolished for Gentile believers, except for the Acts 15 items. The 10 Commandments, and the Commandments of Yeshua to Love as He loved are still extant for Gentiles and Jews alike. Do a covenant study to understand with whom various covenants are made, and to whom they apply. By Galations and Hebrews seem to address the fact that we can fall from Grace back under the law and attempt our own righteousness once more (missing the point of the fruit of the Messiah, where “the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love).
As for Christmas, one has to qualify what it means to the heart of the worshiper observant of it. Advent, as a practice honoring of Jesus in particular, does not usually have its observers walking around thinking of Pagan rituals or Gods, but of Jesus the Messiah. I’d suggest doing a Net search of the Oslo Gospel Choir to see the fruit of Norsk observance of Christmas. A Christ Mass is not a Pagan offering, but an awe observance of Jesus coming birth, then birth, then Lordship. There remain 12 days of observance even after the acknowledgement of birth.
All words, cultural references, and the like in any society will evolve in meaning, intention, and purpose over time. Go to the Mars Hill discourse and learn of Him, for He is meek and humble in heart. Jabez Hart
January 7th, 2010 @ 4:02 pm
Jabez and others — thanks so much for the very helpful interaction.
January 7th, 2010 @ 4:25 pm
And Bo, Galatians 4 &5’s Weak and miserable principles are not pagan principles, but those of the traditions of the people of the Jewish law, where, falling from grace, or back under the law (commonly called backsliding) is addressed, not pagan principles.
January 7th, 2010 @ 9:55 pm
Jabez,
Please read what is written in Galatians.
When they did not know YHWH they served false gods.
Now that they know YHWH they are turning back the bondage of false worship.
Paul never equates the Law of YHWH to something so base.
He calls it righteous, just and good.
Paul observed the Biblical feasts. And wrote to the assemblies using YHWH’s feast days as reference points. Why did he if they are beggarly.
These days and months and times and years were those of false religion.
Gal. 4
8 ¶ Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
The Colossians were keeping (respecting) YHWH’s holy days, new moons and Sabbaths. Paul didn’t want them to be intimidated into not continuing in them. Those days are shadows of things to come and the body of Messiah. They are not something meaningless or base.
Col. 2
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; and the body of Christ.
Shalom
January 7th, 2010 @ 9:56 pm
Jabez.
Let’s talk about covenants.
Rom.9
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom. 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
As we see above, the covenants (plural) belong to Israel not to the gentiles. Not every natural Israelite is truly Israel. Not every descendent of Abraham are children of YHWH. So the covenants only belong to true Israel. Some of the natural branches have been broken off to make room for some of us wild olive shoots to be grafted into Israel and thus be granted citizenship, sonship and inheritance. We who have been grafted in are now partakers of the covenants of promise.
Eph. 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Note that in vs. 11-12 above we USED to be gentiles, without Messiah, outside the covenants of promise. In vs. 19 we are not strangers anymore. We are now fellowcitizens with the Israelites (Saints/set apart ones). And now we are in YHWH’s family. In vs. 20 we are built not only on the apostles, but also on the prophets. That is basically every biblical writer. Not just the “New Testament” writers. In vs. 21 we are builded together with the natural born citizens. We become part of Israel, not they part of the gentiles.
In verses 14-19 Messiah brakes the middle wall of partition down. He abolishes “the law of commandments in ordinances” that causes hatred (enmity) between the two groups so that He can make one new man. He reconciles home born Israelites and foreigners to YHWH, having killed the enmity (hatred between the two groups because of the “law of commandments contained in ordinances”) by what He did on the cross.
What caused the hatred between the two groups? The Torah and the Prophets cause no hatred between the two groups. The Torah, over and over again, makes provision for the foreigner to join Israel. Read Isaiah 56 for a good example. YHWH’s house is, and always has been, a house of prayer for all nations. There is no ordinance in all of Torah that allows for any enmity between the Israelite and the gentile.
If we have accepted Messiah, we are Israelites. All the covenants apply to us now. From Noah’s to Abraham’s to the Mosaic to the New Covenant. As you will see below you cannot disannul a covenant. YHWH’s words abide forever. His covenants are His words (promises) to us if we join His Bride Israel.
Gal. 3
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Note in verse 15 above you cannot abolish or change a man’s covenant let alone YHWH’s covenants. Again Paul says in vs. 16 that only to Abraham and his seed belong the promises. In vs. 17 we find that the Mosaic covenant (Law) cannot make the previous covenant null and void. This is because once YHWH or man makes a covenant it cannot be rescinded or changed. The very same logic applies to the New Covenant. It cannot make the previous covenants of none effect. The Law is one of the covenants of promise for Israelites. The gentiles have no covenant of promise with YHWH. They must join true Israel. Verse 21 says it one more time. The Law covenant is not against the other covenants of promise. If there ever was a law that could give life, the Law would have been it. But the Law doesn’t cause righteousness; it only reveals what righteous behavior is. And there are many promised benefits to those that walk in righteousness. Y’shua’s blood puts us in right standing so that we can receive YHWH’s spirit and grace (power) to live righteously. King David and his Son Y’shua Messiah and Paul declare that the Law is righteous.
The new covenant is for Israel. It is not promised to the gentiles.(See below) The foreigner must become an Israelite to partake of any of the covenants of promise, including the New covenant. Y’shua didn’t come to make the Law of YHWH of none effect. He can’t; it abides forever. It is His revelation of righteous and holy living. The New covenant is YHWH’s law written on our hearts instead of on stone. It is Him causing us to love His law and thus do it instead of an outward imposition to try to live up to. The Law does not change, the person’s heart does. Note that in Heb. 8:8 He found fault with THEM (the people) not the Law. So the New covenant fixes the people so that they love and obey His unchanging Law.
Heb.8
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The person in New covenant wants to obey YHWH’s law. That is what having it written on our hearts means.
John, the same John that wrote John 13:31through early 16 puts it very well.
1 John 5
1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
I will deal with some of your other ideas later.
Shalom
January 8th, 2010 @ 8:03 am
Dr. Brown, why should God make a covenant with the Jews or Hebrews that turns out to be a barrier between people who serve the same God (i.e. Jews and Christians)?
Paul says in 1.Corinthians 10:23
“All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but not all things build up.”
Since God’s covenants are upbuilding and profitable to make us wise unto salvation, they should be open and recommended for everyone.
Now I see a point in not pushing new stuff on unsuspecting people – as long as they are unsuspecting, but I would not say that Christians are unsuspecting people.
Would you see Psalm 119 as not valid in the New Testament anymore?
January 8th, 2010 @ 8:34 am
Jabez, I appreciate a lot you are saying – but “backsliding” contains the word “back” which means going where you came from.
The Galatians were non-Jews – so they could not “backslide” into Jewish customs. Their mistake was that they thought they could get saved by keeping the written and oral law.
January 8th, 2010 @ 10:58 am
Erica, Regarding your Psalms 119 question, the answer must be “yes”—no matter how you regard the relationship of the mitzvot to the Gentiles, Psalm 119 and all the Psalms have a very real and important place in the New Testament, through Jesus Christ who is the subject of all redemptive history.
I think you must be aware of the doctrine of the incarnation…. John 1 speaks of the Word (“Logos,” in the original Greek) being “made flesh” and dwelling among us. This is what we mean when we say that Jesus is God—that God pitched His tabernacle among us through His Son, the second person of the Trinity: in His incarnation we called Him Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach, if you prefer). This is the primary meaning of the Word becoming “flesh” (“incarnation,” from the Latin noun “incarnatio”)—that the second person of the Trinity became a man. Note, however, that Jesus is the “Word made flesh” in a different, though closely related sense: He is the literal fulfillment of the collective Messianic promises of the Hebrew Scriptures (the written Word of God, variously called Tanakh or Old Testament depending on format). He does not only fulfill a collection of Messianic verses scattered here and there throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, though. See, it is important to remember that the Tanakh in its entirety textually embodies a Messianic promise, and that God’s textual Word is fulfilled in the Messiah—Jesus—who is quite literally the living embodiment of the Law, Prophets and Writings. Yes indeed He is the Word/Logos/Memra made flesh—the living embodiment of the eternal spiritual Logos (preincarnate second person of the Trinity) but also the living, breathing fulfillment of God’s eternal Logos as reflected in His textual Word—the Tanakh/Old Testament. He is the Law (Torah), Prophets (Neviim), and Writings (Ketuvim) “made flesh,” and the Psalms (119 included), being part of the Writings, also find their ultimate meaning and expression in Him: “Now He said to them, ‘These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled’” (Luke 24:44). Note how here Jesus Christ says that He is the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures collectively—that they are about Him. In this place we see the Tanakh format with “the Psalms” (including Pslam 119) standing for the Ketuvim synecdochically.
So regardless of how you interpret the ongoing relevance of the Law, Prophets and Writings to Jewish and Gentile believers, Psalm 119 and all the Psalms for that matter have a very real application to all believers, through Jesus Christ in whom we abide, and whose spiritual body we the Church constitute—He the head and we the members.
As Jesus abides in our hearts, and we in Him, so the Hebrew Scriptures in their entirety apply very intimately to Gentile and Jewish believers in Him.
Now I expect you’re going to say “yes, but how can we abide in Him except by performing the mitzvot?” I think Jabez has already adequately dealt with this, in keeping with what Jesus Christ and His inspired apostles spoke nearly two millennia ago.
January 8th, 2010 @ 11:31 am
So Timothy, if Yeshua is indeed the Word made flesh – and at the same time He also indeed wants to live IN us as we should be the living tabernacles of God – should in turn not also we be the Word made flesh through Him? Is this not the requirement for true unity with Yeshua?
1. John 4:2
“By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit who confesses that Yeshua the Messiah has come in the flesh is of God”
I think that John is saying here that the one who confesses that Yeshua the Messiah has come also in our human flesh is of God. That is also why he then continues to explain that we are not of the world though we live in the world.
That means Yeshua truly wants to live IN us. If that is the case in our lives – how can we then NOT be the Word made flesh? Yeshua is the true character of God’s law and ONLY in Him will we able to please God.
Now you brought up the term “mitzvot” which means “obligations” or “duties” if I understand this correctly. As I said before – I think that there is a lot of confusion today about what is a commandment of God and what is a commandment of a Rabbi etc. There is a difference between the written Torah and the Oral Law. We are required to fulfill the written Torah in Spirit and Truth, not so the Oral Law (unless you believe that you need a mediator between you and God and are not able to call upon Him directly – be it now the pope or a Rabbi).
Shalom.
January 8th, 2010 @ 12:39 pm
Jabez,
How did you like “covenant study” as you put it?
Lets talk about your statements just before you said to do a covenant study.
You wrote:
“As far as what else we adhere to, there are many more commandments given by Yeshua and the Apostles in the New Testament than those in the Tenach. The Legal requirements of the law were abolished for Gentile believers, except for the Acts 15 items. The 10 Commandments, and the Commandments of Yeshua to Love as He loved are still extant for Gentiles and Jews alike.”
First:
I may be pleasantly surprised, but I am guessing that you do not keep the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week as the commandment indicates. This is one of the 10 commandments that you listed as still existing. I hope I am wrong.
Second:
The legal requirements of the law ca n’t be abolished. They are part of a covenant that cannot be changed according to Paul. He says that no man can change it once it has been ratified. Well, it has been ratified.
Third:
As far as it being abolished for the gentile believer, it was never for the gentile to start with. It is for Israel. The gentile ceases to exist as a gentile when he enters YHWH’s family. There is no respecting of persons with YHWH. (Rom. 2:4-13, Eph 6:8-9, Col. 3:23-25, Jam. 2:8-13, 1 Pet. 1:13-18, Num. 15:29-41)
Fourth:
The issue in Acts 15 was how do new gentile believers get saved and get into the congregation. They do not get saved by circumcision but by faith in Y’shua. They do not get saved by keeping the 4 prohibitions but they then are acceptable into the congregation so that they can hear Moses preached and grow in faithfulness.
Fifth:
The only law that could possibly be abolished it the man made laws that caused enmity between the Jew and gentile. The commandments of men that made the commandment of YHWH of no effect are abolished. They may have had legal standing among the Jews but Y’shua declared them invalid. So, what is the difference between the commandments of men that Y’shua hated and the idea that only 4 laws still exist? They both make YHWH’s commandments of none effect.
Sixth:
The commandments of the “New Testament” in no way nullify the commandments of the “Old Testament.” They show the heart of the older commandments. They show the spirit of the Law. Can you really believe that someone with the Law written on his heart can go against what is written? It would be like knowing that you are supposed to stop at a red light and ignoring that fact because you have it on your heart to not hurt anyone. The letter of the traffic law is spelled out so that no one gets hurt. The spirit of the traffic law (Lets not hurt anyone) in no way nullifies the letter. The traffic law written on our heart should not only cause us to stop at the red light but also cause us to take seriously the safety of others. The traffic law written on our heart might even cause us to slow down when we see a yellow light instead of speeding up so that we won’t have to stop on red. The traffic law written on our heart might make us into less aggressive drivers. But how can a law written on our heart cause us to continually break the law?
Luke 17
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
A mustard seed of faith grows until it produces great faithfulness. We are unprofitable servants at the point that we do only what we have been asked to do (the law). We become profitable when we go beyond what we have been asked to do. This is the law written on our hearts. We not only obey the Torah, but we go beyond it. This is what Y’shua taught. He said that we should not lust after a woman let alone actually committing adultery with her. He didn’t say it is alright to commit adultery as long as you don’t lust while your doing it. That is what it seems like is being said when someone says that they keep the spirit of the law not the letter. The spirit does not contradict the letter.
John 16
7 ¶ Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
See, I do like John 13-16. The Spirit of YHWH convicts of sin and righteousness and judgement. John says that sin is the transgression of the law. He says all unrighteousness is sin. He says that our love is made perfect that we may have boldness in the day of judgment…there is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear. He says that the love of YHWH is to keep His commandments. He said that Y’shua said “If you love me keep my commandments.” The Spirit was given to guide us into all truth. Y’shua said YHWH’s word is truth. The Spirit will show us the things that are Y’shua’s. All things that the Father has, He has given unto Y’shua. The Father has a Law. He calls it HIS LAW. It is not the Jewish law.
Gota go for now. I’ll try to answer some of your other ideas later, YHWH willing.
Shalom
January 8th, 2010 @ 12:46 pm
Jabez,
I forgot the last sentence.
The Fathers has given Y’shua His Law, and His Spirit gives it to us.
Shalom
January 8th, 2010 @ 2:06 pm
Erica, with regard to the true doctrine that we are called to be children or sons of God and that, as such, with Christ abiding in us by His Spirit we are both individually and collectively (as the members of His body, the Church) to be living tabernacles of God, do not lose sight of the unique sense in which Jesus is the Logos incarnate: the Logos was and is the second Person of the triune Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) before and after His incarnation (do you believe this, Erika?)–this none of us will ever be because He is God and we are not and never will be, however much we might participate in God through Him. Though we are born from above and are made new creations, conforming every day more and more to His likeness, there was, is and will always remain a personal and essential distinction between the sense in which the Word made flesh (the Logos, the eternal Son of God, second person of the Trinity) is the Tabernacle and the sense in which our bodies serve as tabernacles. Remember too, when Jesus is referred to, and refers to himself as the Tabernacle or Temple, this has reference to the fact that he fulfilled all things pertaining to priesthood and sacrifice. Again, this does have application to our persons individually and collectively insofar as we are called to be a priesthood of all believers, but does not apply to us in the unique intercessory way in which it applies to our High Priest and only sacrifice, Yeshua. Thus here too in this priestly sense we must be careful to distinguish the way in which we are tabernacles from the way in which He is.
This brings me to your last comment about “Pope” and “Rabbi.” I have not seen one comment on this post that can properly be construed as particularly Roman Catholic in character, though I am aware of the negative rhetorical force that appending the word “pope” or “Constantine” to an argument can add…. Let me, however, say the following with regard to the general point you’ve raised about mediation via priest or rabbi: As far as mediation of rabbi or priest is concerned, I can, in fact, point to one rabbi and priest whom I thank God to have as the “one Mediator between God and man” (1 Timothy 2:5) Rabbi Yeshua, High Priest of the order of Melchizedek.
Finally, no, I didn’t think you were referring to the oral Law or Rabbinic Judaism.
In Christ,
Timothy
P.S.–I highly recommend Dr. Brown’s DVD series Countering the Countermissionaries.
January 8th, 2010 @ 2:22 pm
Timothy, in no way did I mean that we ourselves can be gods in a “new age sense” – of course Yeshua is and will always be our High Priest.
I was talking in the sense of Romans 8:29
“For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
The reason I mentioned Pope and Rabbi was because you came up with the term of “Mitzvot” and it wasn’t clear to me whose Mitzvot you were talking about. But of course God also has His Mitzvot – the only valid ones
And still my question remains: How can we be living tabernacles for God if we live contrary to His character?
January 9th, 2010 @ 2:18 pm
Interesting thoughts here. Romans also addresses the issues I wrote of in a less succint way. It is apparent that the Galations were both influenced by their past, and assumptions of the Law (according to what PAUL interprets about them in his letter. They did not write the letter, Paul did. Romans gives further understanding of his meaning.). I am not here to debate these nuances or differences over which responders have given their own preferences. I stand by what I past wrote as to focus and emphasis about Christmas, which is the reason I responded and do here.
FYI many commentaries reflect what I shared on the Galations and what Paul wrote. In terms of the judgment of God, we will either be judged by grace, through faith (applying to religious observations from the heart as well), or the law (according to Romans and the section of Galations I wrote of ). It is best to hedge one’s future on grace.
January 10th, 2010 @ 8:00 am
Jabez, I still have a huge probelm with this statement of yours:
“The Legal requirements of the law were abolished for Gentile believers, except for the Acts 15 items. The 10 Commandments, and the Commandments of Yeshua to Love as He loved are still extant for Gentiles and Jews alike.”
How can you reconcile this statement with Matthew 5:17-19
“Don’t think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I didn’t come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished. 5:19 Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.”
So again my question: has heaven and earth passed away already? If not – how can the Word of God be abolished then?
Therefore we see in Acts 15:21 that the new believers were expected to learn all the rest of God’s Word in the synagogues.
By the word of God being abolished legally through Constantine in the year 313 people also began to break the ten first commandments God gave, especially the fourth one:
“Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy” Now I don’t say that people who keep the Sunday instead of the Sabbath won’t go to heaven, but it is a fact that the holy day of Yahweh is the Shabbat – not the Sunday. The question is if we indeed want to a living tabernacle for HIM.
Of course we have all the freedom to do whatever we want to do, but we should at least then also be informed about the consequences of our actions. It is unfair to the audience not to give this information!
Concerning your statement
“In terms of the judgment of God, we will either be judged by grace, through faith (applying to religious observations from the heart as well), or the law (according to Romans and the section of Galations I wrote of ). It is best to hedge one’s future on grace.”
I would like to say that “grace” is when unrighteous people receive a new heart form God – having God’s law written on their hearts and therefore being empowered now to live a righteous life – and are actually living a righteous life. This is the grace we get though Yeshua. See John 1:14-18
“The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth. 1:15 Yochanan testified about him. He cried out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me, for he was before me.’” 1:16 From his fullness we all received grace upon grace. 1:17 For the Torah was given through Moses. Grace and truth were realized through Yeshua the Messiah. 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.”
So you see that the Torah was given through Moses, and the grace to being changed and actually live Torah from the heart was given through Yeshua! Yeshua fulfills the Law, He does NOT abolish it!
In our western understanding we always confuse grace with compassion. Grace means empowerment for a certain task. Through His compassion God can empower us (give us grace) to be what He wants us to be. Through His grace He sent us Yeshua – because He wants to elevate us into His Kingdom!!
By grace God elevates our standard – but grace will never cause Him to lower His standard! So ONLY if we are changed through grace – through Yeshua – will we enter God’s kingdom. Our own righteousness will not get us into there!
So if you say “It is best to hedge one’s future on grace” I totally agree under the right definition of “grace”. Only grace will make the Word also flesh in us!
January 11th, 2010 @ 8:17 am
Erika, The abolish statement was given by Paul in early Ephesians, already quoted for you. I did not make the statement of my own volition, Paul did make it. Perhaps you should read his letters more fully to see why it was made?
As for Bo’s and Erika’s thoughts and preferences of interpretations, I offer the following.
Eph. 2:15 uses the pl. dogmata to denote the individual statutes of the commandments () of the Mosaic Law. Col. 2:14 uses the word to denote the legal demands (RSV) levelled against us which God has nailed to the cross. Hence, Col. 2:20 forbids the church to allow statutes, rules or regulations regarding food and cleanliness to be imposed upon it (cf. v. 21). Here the vb. is translated by the RSV: Why do you submit to regulations? Paul then taught Yeshua has abolished in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances (Eph. 2:15). The accumulation of synonyms ton nomon en dogmasin graphically describes how they were all swept away by Christ, especially for the Gentile believer.
There is no basic contradiction when Paul, like Jesus (cf. Matt. 19:17), urges men to keep the commandments of God ( theou, 1 Cor. 7:19). Gal. 5:6 and 6:15 have the same premise (neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but . . .). These passages show that faith which works through love (Gal. 5:6) and the new creation (Gal. 6:15) provides the presupposition for keeping the commandments. On this basis, 1 Cor. 7:19 repudiates Christian libertinism.
Eph. 6:2 endorses the Fifth Commandment to Honour your father and mother (cf. Exod. 20:12). Rom. 13:9 sees the command You shall love your neighbour as yourself (Lev. 19:8) as a summary of all the individual commands of the second table of the Decalogue. Both these passages stand in close conjunction with apostolic exhortation and go further than the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees in application. The imperative is grounded in the preceding indicative that has already been expounded.
In agreement with Paul (see above on Eph. 2:15), Heb. systematically expounds the theme of the superiority of the heavenly, royal high-priesthood of Christ over the levitical priesthood (the latter as based on adherence to the Law by the way). It shows how a former commandment is set aside [, i.e. a legal technical term] because of its weakness and uselessness (Heb. 7:18). It is superseded by a better hope (Heb. 7:19; cf. Rom. 7:7-10). In the same way, Heb. 7:16 speaks of the setting aside of the law of fleshly commandment (nomon ), i.e. the commandment bound to what is transitory, by the power of an indestructible life (dynamin akatalytou).
Heb. also stresses the christological basis of the NT understanding of conscience, when it declares that the blood of Christ purifies the conscience from dead works to serve the living God (Heb. 9:14). Using the symbolism of the Day of Atonement ritual in which the high priest entered the sanctuary once a year, Heb. 10:22 urges believers to enter themselves, drawing near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Late Biblical Judaism with the Temple system knew of no complete release from consciousness of sin despite repeated cultic rites (cf. Heb. 9:9; 10:2). It is only because of the high priestly sacrifice of Christ that we are sure that we have a clear conscience (Heb. 13:18).
The remaining passages deal with OT references (7:5; 9:19 f.). eneteilato in Heb. 11:22 is used of Joseph’s giving directions for his bones. See also, “and this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us” (1 Jn. 3:23; cf. Gal. 5:6; 1 Cor. 7:19). The idea of the commandment has been given a new meaning. This is a critical piece in understanding what Yeshua meant about fulfillment in an abiding life, and the Law.
Yeshua, sent to the Jews, in demanding the keeping of the commandments meant the better righteousness (Matt. 5:20) and hence the true understanding of the Mosaic Law over Judaizer’s tradtions, [failed] literal attempts at its obedience and stony hearts [hence, your righteousness must exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees, who attempted outward conformity and believed that they had achieved it, yet were cited as hypocrits by the Lord our Ha Shem]. If that is so, and there is no reason to believe that it is not so, Matthew consciously uses this in contrast to its apparent synonym. The same usage is found in 1 Cor. 7:19, where the keeping () of the commandments of God is to be understood in terms of Christ abiding ethics in context; these ethics are stated in the wisdom from above by James, and the fruit of the Spirit by Paul, and in the love and Holy Spirit passages by Yeshua.
John, in his first letter, relates the need to walk in the light of fellowship, which is exlemplified by loving our brother; He does not use the legal requirements of the law as his test of faith, he uses something more and else entirely. Peter too discusses the character development of a saint, and the eyewitness testimony of the new birth, or new creation as indicator of faith’s progress (not the details of the following the precepts of the Law).
Nothing indeed has “passed away” from the law by the fulfillment of it in loving as Yeshua loved. It is doubtful that folks preoccupied with the details of the law, or its interpretation through Jewish traditions in force in the early first century, called hypocrits by Yeshua, understood what He was emphasizing in the Sermon on the Mount. In John 8 it is clear that they as expository critics of the Life of Yeshua never got what Yeshua was about, challenging even his legitimacy of birth of those claiming lineage from Abraham.
What is the present challenge of obedience and a New Covenant faith that lasts then is in focus today as it was for those coming to a New Covenant faith in the book of Acts and in the Gospels. The Gospel of John’s meaning on “full of grace and truth” became further defined for us by the letters of Paul, John, Peter, and James–as to this reality’s applications in meetings, in attitudes and practices among the brethren, and how its fulfillment came to be regarded due to Christ in us, the hope of glory in being other’s servants.
This type of enablement of fulfillment of the Law is placed in focus with the declaration of Paul about the sent chosen Apostles, where by their example, we become “your servants” [of others] for “His sake”. What is meant by this reality which Paul wrote of, in his own understanding and writing championed of a far larger discipleship apostolic consequence than adherence to the legal requirements of the Law? Obviously such a Way of being taking over all other motivation has to do with the Law’s fulfillment, in actions of love, even so as the Lord coffered its modeling. Even so, the Lord stated greater things would be done by his followers than He did. This is a curious report if the Law were the standard for those thereafter so reported of.
Today many observant Yeshiva schooled Jews spend many years attempting to understand and obey the law as a personal yoke of response to it. They read the commentaries of Rashi and their particular Rabbinical stem of Judaism. Is their experience any different than what Peter said about it in Acts 15, as to its yoke? How does belief in, and discipleship effort toward Yeshua, with its unique equippage toward leading an abiding life then differ from this yoke?
Yeshua revealed himself “in” Paul on the Damascus road. Christ “in” one is the hope of glory. We live in the Age of the Gentiles, in the United States, where grace and truth are readily available as to our own heartfelt dedication to the Lord. The written word defines the Way. Notice in John 14:13-16 all representative descriptors of the revelation of God, commonly called the Trinity, are referred to, and are expounded on as to relationship in the entire passage of 13:31 through the early 16th chapter. What is being stated here as to the value of religious observance, the Law as it was then known, and a basis for a future of connection with the Lord? How does this differ from those in conflict with Yeshua, who attempted to follow the letter of the Law, coming into conflict over its yoke with him in John 8? What is the nature of the conflict there and why couldn’t those claiming to be Abraham’s descendants there understand that before Abraham was Yeshua framed the universe they were created in, and how that might be relevant to a proper interpretation of the fulfillment of the Law?
On commandments: in the Tenach these are legal requirements; as a result of Yeshua’s teaching on what He commanded, His revealed Word on commandments challenge the professing Christian who does not follow His New and Living Way outlined in the entire John section passage on the introduction of the Spirit, where we are especially commanded to love. What the Spirit is to reveal to a believer differs from what the Law has revealed. This is contextualized by the Master as given in his dealings with brother, enemy, and neighbor, as to not walking in the dark (1 Jn. 2:9). In the parable of the Good Samaritan He challenges with His notion of who a neighbor is. He went on to introduce his followers to Agape’, a challenge especially put to Peter who denied association with Him based on fear of those under the Law.
Hypocrites lay laws upon men without themselves lifting a finger. They stress the multiplicity of external commandments and leave out of consideration the weightier matters (ta barytera) of the law, justice and mercy and faith (Matt. 23:23). Those emphasizing certain commandments too seem to lack the charity Yeshua had.
Compared with the yoke of the interpreters of the law under which Judaism stood, Jesus yoke (zygos Slave) is easy and his burden (phortion) light. For that reason he can call to himself all those who labour and are heavy-laden (pephortismenoi) (Matt. 11:28 ff.). There are commandments also for Jesus disciples. But these commandments are not heavy, for Jesus is jointly yoked with those who heed this call. In the words of 1 Jn. 5:3, his commandments are not burdensome (bareiai). For the commandments are the enactment of love.
Grace and turth through the propitiation and atonement of Yeshua offers conversion of the heart, not offered Adam and Eve, or those prior to His arrival on the scene under the Law. If adherence to the precepts could have completed the calling, it would have. Many, according to Hebrews, looked forward to this possiblity, where Yeshua’s covenant is superior in every way, making holy those who seek Him. He and the Father send the Spirit to all who believe and call upon His Name.
January 11th, 2010 @ 9:39 am
Erika, Acts 15:21 does not represent a further advocation for the passage made on the decision of the Jerusalem Council on the Gentile requirements on the Law written prior. It appears again in Acts, Chapter 21 without verse 15:21, where the entire 15th chapter section to the Gentiles too is saying something without your interpretation of an additional advocacy sequence to what came prior (it summarized a statement regarding a Gentile reponse to Peter’s prior statement as to the difficulty of the Yoke of Moses placed on the Jewish people in their lives [in the Synagogues and other references of observance]).
In 21:25 we find the passage without your sequence of an additional requirement interpretation as to Gentiles going to the synagogues for further instruction on Torah: “where we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” There is nothing of the sequence added interpretation you made about going to the synagogues to learn the Tenach (which was not stated in the 15th chapter per se as well).
In fact the letters and actions of Paul in reference to the synagogues and churches are quite telling. Even in the Revelation of Christ given to John we have references to the churches (ecclesias) and their own governance and authority, under Christ, not being linked to the synagogues which might exist where they were, though contemporary to John. Requirements for elders and rulers of ecclesias and their governance responsibility are written elsewhere by Paul.
Recall Paul was stoned by those of the synagogues. His frustration with them too is recorded amply in Acts. Nowhere does Paul and his group of accompaniment go to the synagoges for their teaching of the Gentiles, but to attempt to share the new of Yeshua the Messiah. Very few of these responded with faith, though where so it is notable.
January 11th, 2010 @ 10:50 am
Ok, as for Ephesians 2:15 Paul says here not the Law is abolished, but the ENMITY of the law. The ENMITY of the Law (God’s Word) is abolished by having the Law written in our hearts, Jeremiah 31:33-34
“But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from their least to their greatest, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.”
Through Yeshua the Law – the Word of God – is written on our hearts – for Jews and Gentiles alike – and now we LOVE the Law – we don’t hate it anymore. Otherwise Psalm 119 would not be legitimate in the New Testament anymore.
You said:
“…graphically describes how they were all swept away by Christ, especially for the Gentile believer.”
What was swept away was our defiled heart. Now we can serve God with a pure and good conscience. Col. 2:14 says just that. Yeshua took our guilt upon Himself – that’s why we are now not guilty anymore – and free from the bondage of our guilt we now can serve God with the right heart, since now we LOVE His Law! Again – now we even can comprenend Psalm 119, which was impossible before!
You state very rightly that Paul does not repudiate Christian libertinism.
On the other side you don’t understand that all the conflicts Yeshua had with the Parisees of His time were because Yeshua contradicted the ORAL LAW – the tradition of the elders – all the time! That was the reason they wanted to crucify Him!
As I pointed out now several times – there is a HUGE difference between the written Word of God – which Yeshua gave the true meaning and life to and came to FULFILL – and the Oral Law – which He came to abolish – since THIS was the heavy yoke of the Pharisees! By all means – it was NOT the Law of Moses!!
The hypocrites are those that place their own yokes on the people instead of serving them the Word of God in Spirit and Truth!
As for the letter to the Hebrews you quote from a lor of times – I truly LOVE this letter and don’t have any problem with it!!
So in short – the letter to the Hebrews states how all the Shadow pictures of good things to come are being and still will be FULFILLED in Yeshua! This is the function of a shadow picture: to educate us what will happen in future and what this life is all about. Without a shadow picture there is no education!
I have the impression Jabez that you are saying I would promote a legalistic observance of the letter – but all I’m saying is that the Spirit has come to give the letter a meaning and life! Without the letter there would be no need for the Spirit – like John said in the passage I quoted before: Yeshua came to give the Word of God a meaning and life (John1:14-18)! There is no other Word of God – and not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished (Matthew 5:18).
You said:
“Today many observant Yeshiva schooled Jews spend many years attempting to understand and obey the law as a personal yoke of response to it. They read the commentaries of Rashi and their particular Rabbinical stem of Judaism. Is their experience any different than what Peter said about it in Acts 15, as to its yoke? How does belief in, and discipleship effort toward Yeshua, with its unique equippage toward leading an abiding life then differ from this yoke?”
Hey Jabez, they are reading and studying the Talmud – and what is the Talmud? The written Law of God or the Oral Law of the Pharisees written down??
Do I make myself clear here?? ALL (I mean ALL) the conflicts Yeshua had with the Pharisees of His time was BECAUSE OF THE ORAL LAW – which was a yoke too heavy for the people to carry!!!
Col.2:22 again says that we should not adhere to the teachings of MEN concerning food and customs – nothing is written there about not adhering to God’s Word!! So please Jabez – if you are doing anything – please don’t do it because Erika says so!!!
What has that to do with MOSES???
John 5:45-46
“Don’t think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you, even Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 5:46 For IF YOU BELIEVED MOSES, YOU WOULD BELIEVE ME; FOR HE WROTE ABOUT ME. 5:47 BUT IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE HIS WRITINGS, HOW WILL YOU BELIEVE MY WORDS?”
In Matthew 23:23 we see again how Yeshua comes to fulfill the Law of Moses in Spirit and Truth and not only by the letter!
So Yeshua’s yoke is not heavy, because it is God’s yoke for us and NOT a man-made one like the Oral Law. And when through the new covenant God’s Word is written on our hearts, this yoke will be light and life-giving, as described in Psalm 119!
Remeber what Yeshua said in Matthew 7:22
“Many will tell me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?’ 7:23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of lawlessness (in Greek: you workers of anomia).’ ”
An yes, we will even do greater things than Yeshua did if we truly let God’s Word be flesh in us through the Holy Spirit, since God’s Kingdom is advancing through Yeshua.
January 11th, 2010 @ 12:08 pm
Now concerning Acts 15:21
The fact that the apostles did not expound this in more detail was simply because there was NO other place where people could learn about God than in the synagogues. This was THE education place for all believers at the time. A few letters here and there from the apostles gave further explanations and also tried to explain not to follow the Oral Law as a binding establishment.
Concerning the Greek texts in the New Testamant and the words there for “church” – it is “synagogue” – see for example
Jacob (James) 2:1-2
“My brothers, don’t hold the faith of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah of glory with partiality. 2:2 For if a man with a gold ring, in fine clothing, comes into your synagogue, and a poor man in filthy clothing also comes in”…
Or Jacob (James) 5:14-15
“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the synagogue, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord, 5:15 and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”
(Thanks Dr. Brown – I began to watch your DVDs “Jewish Roots of Christianity!)
In other places the “church” is called “ecclesia” meaning “assembly” too (like synagogue) without distinguishing between Jewish and non-Jewish believers.
And in Acts 15:10-11 Peter says:
“Now therefore why do you tempt God, that you should put a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Yeshua, just as they are.”
He responds there to what some said in Acts 15:1
“Some men came down from Judea and taught the brothers, “Unless you are circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can’t be saved.” ”
Peter says here that nobody can get saved through the Law of Moses – the same I said here several times.
And again – let’s forsake the grace perversion – grace is the empowerment to live a righteous life. This is salvation and the fulfillment of the Law.
January 11th, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
Erika,
One quick clarification on grace: It is both God’s gracious, undeserved help to us in our lost and needy estate — we are saved totally by grace! — along with His gracious empowerment of us so that we can live for Him. The perversion of the doctrine is to ignore either of these two points.
January 11th, 2010 @ 1:09 pm
Thanks Dr. Brown, I agree.
Shalom
January 11th, 2010 @ 1:11 pm
Jabez,
That was quite the scholarly sounding response. Are you a Greek scholar or are you quoting a commentary or something? The long response was a bit overwhelming for a simple fellow like me. I mostly look at the context and the definitions of words. So I will continue in my simple way. But it will likely be lengthy also.
The meaning of the phrase ‘cheirographon tois dogmasin’ in Col. 2:14 that is translated ‘handwriting of ordinances’ in the AV is defined by Strongs # 5498 “something hand-written (”chirograph”), i.e. a manuscript (specifically, a legal document or bond” and Strongs # 1378 “1) doctrine, decree, ordinance, 1a) of public decrees.” It is my understanding that this phrase was used to denote a legal judgment against someone or bill of indebtedness. So Messiah paid our debt or took our punishment so that the charges against us were dropped. The bill of indebtedness was marked paid in full. This makes perfect sense with every statement in the “New Testament.” It does not make sense that the Law was blotted out. It stands forever. Y’shua said that He did not come to destroy the Law. So were dead in sins (transgression of the law) and now we are alive with Him because the penalty has been paid not because the Law was done away with. (Col. 2:13-14)
Verse 16 of Col. 2 cannot mean that it is ok to break the Law. Paul says, multiple times, “Shall we sin that grace may abound? May it never be!” If we stopped doing the prescribed festivals and paid no attention to what we ate we would be breaking the Law, thus sinning. Since Y’shua took away the authority of the Jewish religious leaders (principalities and powers) they have no say in how to properly do the feasts of YHWH with all their little scrupulous rules.(Col.2:15-16) Their rules were commandments of men, as Y’shua said.
Speaking of the commandments of men, look at Col. 2:20-23. It is not the ordinances of the Law that are spoken of as looking good but being bad. It is the rules of men that make the commandments of YHWH of no effect. That is what your interpretation does. It makes the Law of YHWH ov no effect. My interpretation leaves the rules of love intact.
Verses 18 and 19 of Col. 2 give a warning. Do not be tricked into bowing to the ideas of prideful men that think they deserve your obedience. The “Church system” has been doing this for centuries. They have come up with things like Lent, Easter, Christmas, Advent, All saints day, Sunday Sabbath, etc. People just jump right in submitting to ideas of men, when the scripture is on their bookshelf with the will of YHWH spelled out as to Holy Days and such. Yes, that same scripture that Paul says is all we need in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.
The context of Eph. 2 disagrees with your statements. The wall that was between the Jew and gentile is not the Law of YHWH. You have failed to produced one scripture that would show how the Torah is a wall between the two groups. Y’shua abolished in His flesh the enmity (hatred). What in the Torah is the cause of hatred between the Jew and gentile?
Antisemitism is still rampant in the church. The hatred still exists with the doctrine that it teaches. The wall has not been broken down in “Churchianity.” The Church has abolished the Torah for all practical purposes. And that only caused more hatred. Y’shua would not do the same. So the “Law of commandments contained in ordinances” is what causes hatred. It is the commandments and doctrines of men that continues the strife, not YHWH’s perfect Law.
YHWH’s Law has always invited the gentile in to become part of Israel. YHWH’s law even specifies to treat the stranger kindly even if He just wants to live in the land of Israel. Peter was under the impression that he could not go into a gentiles house. He said it was “unlawful.” There is no law in the scripture that says this. He was held captive by the man made laws and traditions of the elders even at this point in his life.(Acts. 10:28) But the Spirit of YHWH taught him that he should not call any man common or unclean. He did not teach him not to call any animal unclean, for that would against Torah. And the Spirit cannot contradict the Word.
The Spirit of YHWH taught Peter that YHWH is no respecter of persons. He taught him that if a gentile works righteousness he is accepted with YHWH.(Acts 10:34-35) That is what Paul and John both taught too.(Rom.2:6-11: 1 John 3:4-10)
I believe in the “new and living way” of serving YHWH. But this new way does not undo the Law. It writes the Law on our hearts. It causes us to say, “the sacrifices of YHWH are a broken and contrite heart.” It recognizes the high priesthood of Y’shua, but it doesn’t do away with the Law’s place in our heart. David saw it this way. He said “O how I love thy law!” and the quote above. Paul says he knew the blessedness of YHWH not imputing sin.
I close with this. The traditions of men are deceitful. They make us feel like we are true in heart. But man’s heart is deceitfully wicked. James says it well.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The engrafted word is the Law written on our hearts. It saves our souls. We only trick ourselves to think that the Law is not applicable to our lives. The perfect Law brings liberty not bondage. Man’s laws bring bondage and make YHWH’s law of no effect.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Y’shua said they should do both the lighter things and the heavier things. Sabbaths and true Holy Days may be just more small things, but He did not say to ignore the small things. He said to do it all.
Being “Doers of the Torah” does not save us, this I know. But it shows the Law written on our hearts. It shows that we have been made righteous by Y’shua’s blood. May we all come to love YHWH’s instructions for righteousness and holiness. If we are a gentiles just coming to faith, let us start with the 4 prohibitions and start doing whatever else we come across in the scripture. But if we have been a believer for a long time by all means let us stop deceiving ourselves. It is not about becoming a son of YHWH; it is about being an obedient son.
Heb. 5
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
10 ¶ Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Lets grow up into obedient children and become great in YHWH’s kingdom!
Shalom
January 11th, 2010 @ 1:22 pm
Thanks Dr. Brown, yes I agree – but let’s expound a bit more the term “saved” – doesn’t it mean in essence being “changed and made fit for the Kingdom of God”?
If that is the case, then “salvation” is an ongoing process and then it does not necessarily define if we will end up in heaven or not (that is the minimum) but it is also a term defining the level of salvation and the place in heaven we will have (since I believe that there are “the least” and “the great” in heaven after Yeshua’s words).
Paul says somewhere that we are changed “from glory to glory” – this indicates an ongoing salvation process to me, and this is also a reason I believe to be open for doctrinal changes.
Being “saved” for us today just has the meaning of having made the first step on the narrow path – but actually this term describes the whole process of our journey to God, until we finally meet Him face to face.
January 11th, 2010 @ 1:55 pm
Erika, I have to go with what the text says, in spite of your desires for something else. And Jeremiah states the lack of need to state to others “know ye the Lord, for all know Him from the least to the greatest,” by a New Covenant knowledge. There is something in this statement as to the result of the Law written on the heart which I do not find in your manner of response above, addressed below.
In your first response above, you have assumed my intention and knowledge on many occasions, but without insight or an actual aquaintance as is attained by asking questions rather than making statements about what I believe was so in the conflict between Yeshua and his critics/eventual judges. This kind of absolute assumption was done in past statements about an understaniding you gave too without making questions due to remarks advanced on Norwegian Christmas remarks I made as well. I would call this approach to interchange zeal without knowledge FYI. It is debate, not dialogue, where, as believers dialogue might prevail over debate.
Of course the traditions of the leaders were a primary conflict between Yeshua and those students and leaders swimming around the religious towers of the Nation so to speak, of Jerusalem, Galilee, and elsewhere abroad since the dispersion. This is stated from the Sermon on the Mount forward by Yeshua. But one has to recognize also the clarity of asserting what was “from the beginning” not only in His direct reponses to such a regard of the Sinai Covenant, and creation, but too of an even greater clarification of righteousness as made over the literal legal requirements which were being proclaimed as completed by the religious leaders of the Nation due to their related actions and behaviors. The leaders he took to task did, in fact, carry out many aspects of the written code. The Jerusalem religious sacrificial system existed on this basis, as did the calendar activities so related in the Nation (even Yeshua spoke of honoring this. Read my comments under another ASK DR. Brown Web Ministry area on whether the Temple will be rebuilt, which quotes Yeshua).
Yeshua’s “but I say unto you,” takes much as was regarded as sacrosanct to task, while also taking to task the total lack of humility of those asserting to sit on the seat of Moses (who he did not contradict as being in such a place).
In John 8, however, the basic conflict was over the identity and background of the Chosen as Sent One. As with many alleged power conflicts, his critics perferred their own take on reality to reality, and asserted their own belief in being in a superior position accordingly (and missed the appointed visitation and its provision and instruction).
This kind of approach seems too to be what you are assuming in a way of addressing what I have written. Your assumption on the addition of a statement on Moses being taught in the synagogues from Acts 15:21 ipresents the greatest stretch–into the exact opposite meaning of the scene and total passage construct, gained from noting the contributions of its principle participants and the conflicts and resolution offered in that session.
Erika, since you apparently enjoyed Jerusalem so much in your recent reflections, do you attend present religious community or communities which refer to your understanding of scripture, the Law as you think it is, and so forth? Are you and Bo in the same camp?
Even if the nuances you assert as such about what Paul wrote held, how would you then remark on how a believer in Yeshua would be obligated to practice the Law? Please give me three examples, for, what you currently assume as to how that may present and be conformed for a believer in an ecclesia is quite obscured by the manner and related aggression of your respnse to date.
I cannot find etymological collaboration in the Greek with your pesonal definition of grace, which, more accurately seems to be “unmerited favor,” rather than having anything to do with empowerment. Empowerment is a current preoccupation of counseling psychology as it has emerged to be. Therefore as such it is person centered, rather than God or word centered. As servants of grace and truth then, what were the Apostles “empowered” to do and be? What were they conveying which differed from the 7 sons of Skcva, for example? Since he was a Jewish Priest leader, should the Gentiles go to his place of practice to be taught as you advocated they should? What was the Apostles’ personal experience with Jews as a result of their witness?
Certainly in Jacob, which was written to the “12 tribes scattered abroad”, apparently by the Lord’s half brother–with its tensions on observance of what is the practical wisdom for Jewish believers in such circumstances– the word “synagogue” is employed. But the leap then that all other uses of the word eccelsia, or church gathering, therefore are interchangeable with synagoge is, once more, a great stretch: without other related New Testament textual contexts granting such proof indeed. You have lifted synagogue out of Jacob and its related context of readership as is clearly stated, and, apparently once more due to personal zeal–not in any way due to words used in ecclesia related texts–replace a personal theology idea for other clear references to church (with your wish for such indicating synagogue?). Again, this is attempting to have the New Testament say or conclude something it does not say or conclude in its written context.
Also, here is the NIV on Eph 2:15. EPH 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. It is pretty clear in at least a half dozen leading English translations, and in Greek ponies, that it is the law’s commandments and regulations which are abolished, by usage, not enmity, though that too is taken to task by the action of Yeshua. so, I confess not understanding your retranslation emphasis as somehow stating some greater understanding of what Paul clearly stated.
Jeremiah is not projected at all into the text, nor found there, though being of the New Covenant descriptors, it can apply after fully establishing what is contained in the text. In fact the phrase New Covenant does not appear there, though its basis for change is clear enough.
In short Erika, please answer my questions in order to better understand what it is you want to say, and the basis of it.
January 11th, 2010 @ 2:19 pm
Also, according to Dr. Brown, as “empowerment” is involved in grace, how so? How would such differ from empowerment understanding developed by say, Maslow’s heirarchy of human needs? Is it self empowerment, or empowerment for some other end? Just saying empowerment is in the mix does not clarify this often secularly used term for individuation and self fulfillment–which is the cry of many actualization priests of our era. There must be differentiation in its usage (please cite examples of such) and our increasingly secularized USA.
January 11th, 2010 @ 2:29 pm
Jabez, first you tell me that I have a bad attitude, and then you say a lot without quoting from the bible what exactly you mean – and third I must say that I’m a native German speaker living in Germany, and therefore having some difficulties to follow your latest three comments.
If you would like me answering some questions of yours, could you ask them in a way that I can understand please? Think of a six year old – I’m actually 34, but my English is not that good.
January 11th, 2010 @ 9:07 pm
Erika,
The problem is not a “bad attitude,” but a know-it-all attitude, which ignores other’s valid research by making absolute and exclusive statements. This happens by not asking questions to clarify what’s up with someone else as to finding a different scripture meaning than your own, as to their own means of interpretation of scripture, and some other possiblities. Why assume what another thinks without asking their means of finding a conclusion, which may differ from your own? Why not ask what they think, instead of making absolute statements about hwat hey wrote?
This feels pushy, manipulative, and harsh, at best. The way you write requires compliance with your views regardless of a reader’s consent, other scholarship viewpoints, or agreement. Are you aware that your communication style can generate friction and resistance from others? Why, because of making statements that cannot be accepted any other way than the way they are made.
Are you aware that your approach to Biblical meaning is extremely self centered rather than original language Biblical passage meaning centered?
It is clear that synagogue, for example, is not readily replaced with ecclesia or church and vice versa. Yet you wish your own first century view on Gentile believers going to synagogues for Torah teaching to be the case by misunderstanding Acts 15; are you aware that ithis is highly questionable?
People may not agree with your interpretations based on their own understanding of Biblical meaning; can you accept that such meaning may be correct and may differ from what you state is the meaning of a passage?
January 11th, 2010 @ 11:32 pm
Jabez,
You wrote:
I cannot find etymological collaboration in the Greek with your pesonal definition of grace, which, more accurately seems to be “unmerited favor,” rather than having anything to do with empowerment.
This definition is very simplistic and does not take into consideration the context of many passages. It is a convenient, and if I may say so, trite bumper sticker type slogan instead of a scholarly and complete understanding of the word.
Here is a list of passages that show a more complete understanding of the word “grace.”:
Ge 47:29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:
Lu 2:40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.
Ac 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
Ac 20:32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Ro 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you–ward.
2Co 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
Ga 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Col 4:6 Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
Tit 2:
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Shalom
January 12th, 2010 @ 6:49 am
Ok Jabez – I see that you don’t agree with me. And as I said before, I don’t expect anyone to do anything because of my opinions.
As for the words “synagogue” and “ecclesia” – I didn’t mean to say that they are absolutely interchangeable – although they both seem to mean “assembly”. I think that Dr. Brown could give us a more detailed explanation on this. Furthermore I would like to say that in Paul’s time “the church” did not exist – they just were an assembly of followers of Yeshua during the great debate whether it was a requirement of salvation to be circumcised in the flesh.
As for the term “grace” – the biblical meaning of this word goes back to the Hebrew word “khessed” (I hope I spelled that now right in English). There is also a Hebrew word for mercy, which is “rakhamim” (with the kh being a gutteral).
Remember that even the New Testament was written by Jews, except for Luke and Acts (but Luke lived within the Jewish society) – so we have to think inside the Jewish culture of that time. The words khessed and rakhamim are two different words with two different meanings. “Mercy” or “Compassion” is “rakhamim” and “grace” is “khessed”.
All the verses that Bo quoted above (and I never heard of Bo before – I guess he lives in America) will make much more sense when you know the Hebrew meaning of “khessed” – it is “mercyful empowerment” if you will. This has nothing to do with any Greek thought-pattern – it just reflects what Paul writes in Romans 8:29
“For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.”
or says in Act 17:29
“Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man.”
and Yeshua says in John 10:34
“Yeshua answered them, “Isn’t it written in the law, ‘I said, you are gods?” He is quoting here from Psalm 82:6
” I said, “You are gods,
all of you are sons of the Most High.”
Of course the devil always LOVES to produce the counterfeit of God’s principles, like he is doing with New Age etc. – but there is also the true principle of salvation from our fallen state.
If you think now that with me explaining this I just show my fallen state, I’m sorry. I thought though that these facts might be interesting.
January 12th, 2010 @ 10:00 am
Bo and Erika,
As written, the Greek meaning, introduced in the New Testament, of the common international language spoken at the time, and starting most of the NT letters containing the greeting “Grace and Peace” to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ is the meaning shared by Greek references. Curious how the Jews writing the New Testament, excepting, of course, Luke, and perhaps even Mark, introduced all kinds of newly framed meaning to former Tenach concepts. In fact, Hebrews states that a New and Living Way overshadowed all covenants made prior.
Perhaps the reason I associated Bo and Erika as perhaps belonging to the same religious group was because of a similarity of approach, which is commonly called authoritarianism.
Bo’s most recent example “This definition is very simplistic and does not take into consideration the context of many passages. It is a convenient, and if I may say so, trite bumper sticker type slogan instead of a scholarly and complete understanding of the word.”
Bo, you can say anything you want within the blog guidelines posted by the host, and, of course, also consider what it may mean to cross boundaries of civility in your pronouncements as well. You have written much, and quoted much, your right indeed.
Erika likewise wrote, “in Paul’s time ‘the church’ did not exist – they just were an assembly of followers of Yeshua during the great debate whether it was a requirement of salvation to be circumcised in the flesh”. Which is absolutely false. Paul’s letters are most often addressed to “the church at…”.
It is this assumptive logic, borderline arrogance, which has now clarified the opinioning of two I once associated as perhaps being in the same religious group.
Bo, I still await Dr. Brown’s clarifications of what he meant by empowerment, as requested of him.
January 12th, 2010 @ 12:23 pm
Jabez,
I meant no insult to you. I have heard that definition tossed around for 30 years by people as a christian cliche. They are usually just repeating what someone else said and have not studied or thought about it themselves. So I am sorry.
I am not sure but I think that you accuse me of arrogance and bad thinking. I am sure that you would feel insulted if someone said that of you. It is possible that your statement is true, but I assure you that I have studied and read on these matters extensively and have found many believers that think likewise. (Even Hebrew and Greek scholars.)
If I have sounded a bit rough, I was only trying to address the subjects in such a way as to provoke others to love and good works. If I am not mistaken the Corinthians thought Paul was a bit rough in his letters and a bit wimpy in person.
Here are a few thoughts that you might want to consider:
2 Peter 3
1 ¶ This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
. . .
11 ¶ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
It is the words of the prophets and the apostles that we need to take heed to, not just the apostles. We need to be walking in “holy conversation (lifestyle) and godliness.” Paul’s writings were being twisted to say what the unlearned and unstable wanted them to say. They twisted the other scriptures to their own destruction also.
Now that we know these things, let us (you and I) beware lest we also be led away with the error of the wicked (athesmos-one who breaks through the restraint of law and gratifies his desires). Let us (you and I) grow in GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of Messiah.
I do not know how to grow in unmerited favor. I can grow in usefulness, and ability though.
In all my letters I have tried to show that Y’shua wants us to love Him by keeping His commandments. I have tried to show that the modern church has neglected this idea. I have tried to show that the law still stands and is applicable to us who believe. I have tried to show that many of our day twist what Paul wrote to their own destruction. I have tried to show that the whole Bible is consistent with no contradictions. I have tried to show that, “Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH.” If I have failed, then I have failed.
Once again Jabez, I am sorry for any insult. Please try to read my words with the idea of “iron sharpening iron”, for that is how I intend them.
Shalom
January 12th, 2010 @ 1:03 pm
So, Bo, You have added more to more. I will interact here with some.
Let us (you and I) grow in GRACE and KNOWLEDGE of Messiah. LET IT BE SO.
I do not know how to grow in unmerited favor. I can grow in usefulness, and ability though. HOW WE GROW IN UNMERITED FAVOR IS BY RECEPTIVITY TO IT. IT SEEMS TO BE WHAT THE APOSTLE STATED WHEN HE WROTE “UNTIL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU.” IT SEEMS THAT OUR OLD MAN OR SELF LIFE GETS IN THE WAY OF RECEPTIVITY INITIALLY. THEN, KIND OF LIKE BEGINNING TO HEAR THE FATHER IN OUR PRAYER CLOSET, WE RECOBNIZE WHAT HAS BEEN THERE ALL ALONG. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT GROWTH CANNOT BE BY OTHER PROVISIONS AND MEANS–EVEN EFFORT ONCE ENGAGED.
In all my letters I have tried to show that Y’shua wants us to love Him by keeping His commandments. HIS COMMANDMENTS, IT IS WRITTEN, ARE NOT GREVIOUS. I have tried to show that the modern church has neglected this idea. WHICH CHURCH? THE ONE’S I KNOW OF HAVE ACTIVE DISCIPLESHIP. I have tried to show that the law still stands and is applicable to us who believe. WHICH LAW, ALL 613 PRECEPTS OF MOSES, OR THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW USHERED IN BY THE MESSIAH AND THE PROVISIONS OF ADOPTION, THE HOLY SPIRIT, DISCIPLESHIP AND FELLOWSHIP+ WHEN JAMES (JACOB) REFERS TO THE PRECIOUS LAW OF LIBERTY IS THAT RELEVANT TO YOUR TAKE ON THE LAW? I have tried to show that many of our day twist what Paul wrote to their own destruction. CAN YOU BE MORE DESCRIPTIVE? WHO ARE THE MANY IDENTIFIED? HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS SO? I have tried to show that the whole Bible is consistent with no contradictions. CAN IT BE CONSISTENT AND MOVE ON TO A GREATER REVELATION OF GOD, IN CHRIST? AS IS WRITTEN OF IN HEBREWS? I have tried to show that, “Man shall not live by bread alone but by EVERY WORD that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH.” SO THE TETRAGRAMMATION HAS A LARGER MOUTH, SO TO SPEAK, THAN THE LORD IN JOHN 13:31 THROUGH EARLY 16? If I have failed, then I have failed. HOW DO YOU VIEW SUCCESS?
WHY DID PAUL STATE THAT “THE ONLY THING THAT COUNTS IS FAITH EXPRESSING ITSELF IN LOVE?” HOW DOES THIS FIT INTO YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAW?
January 12th, 2010 @ 1:47 pm
In what context did Paul write, “lest any man should boast?”
January 12th, 2010 @ 3:23 pm
Ok Jabez, I think that I will opt out of this conversation, since it seems to me that you don’t have further questions you want me to answer. But if that is not the case, feel free to ask me anything. Now just in reference to what you wrote above:
“Erika likewise wrote, “in Paul’s time ‘the church’ did not exist – they just were an assembly of followers of Yeshua during the great debate whether it was a requirement of salvation to be circumcised in the flesh”. Which is absolutely false. Paul’s letters are most often addressed to “the church at…”. ”
According to Dr. Brown the word “synagogue” appears fifty-three (53) times alone in the Greek New Testament – and it always means “assembly” or “congregation” with no further definiton whether the members of that assembly or congregation are Jews or non-Jews. Most of the time that word “synagogue” is translated as “church” – and interestingly enough only then is it left by King James as “synagogue” when something negative is described. I quoted again Dr. Brown here, and if I’m wrong, please tell me Dr. Brown. That is what I remember from your DVDs “Jewish Roots of Christianity”.
I think you did some great teachings, Dr. Brown!
Now by all this I too never intended to insult anyone – but if these facts are so insulting I start to question some things.
Oh, now I see that you still asked a question – this one:
“In what context did Paul write, “lest any man should boast?”
The context here is Ephesians 2:1-10
Jabez, Bo and I are not boasting, we are just saying that in Messiah we are not children of disobedience anymore (Ephesians 2:2). Through His grace He empowers us to live according to HIS will.
January 12th, 2010 @ 8:20 pm
Jabez,
Do all caps mean you are yelling or mad or something?
Y’shua is YHWH. “The Father and I are one.” If you’ve seen me you’ve seen the Father.” Abraham spoke with YHWH. So did Moses. They spoke with the preincarnate Son. Y’shua is the Messenger (angel) of YHWH. The Word of YHWH made flesh does not change YHWH’s word.
Shalom
January 12th, 2010 @ 8:54 pm
Jabez,
You asked, ‘In what context did Paul write, “lest any man should boast?”’
In the context of obtaining righteousness by faith (commitment) or works.
Shalom
January 12th, 2010 @ 9:59 pm
OK Erika, and Bo.
Erika, The 45+ times the word synagogue appears in the NIV NT it refers to a Jewish congregation, not a church or NT gathering FYI (source, word search NIV where a synagogue is a synagogue). Otherwise, excepting Jacob’s usage, there is some ambiguity over the few other times. None of the 45+ times is it translated church FYI. Do the math on ythe erroneous statement about translation as church in these NIV instances. I could pot the list but you can look in a concordance. What does this tell us of the use of the word in the NT?
But this was not the issue, was it? Saying there was no church in Paul’s day seems absurd. The task of Apostle’s in Acts was to share the Good News abroad and to plant churches among the Gentiles. This is well documented in the NT, see Acts on the missionary journeys recorded there and the results mentioned. The church is for every generation, and has constantly been manifested and reinterpreted as to its government and emphases throughout history. The key elements of its witness have not really changed, where the testimony of Jesus is maintained, with gathering in his name.
Yeshua also mentioned the church twice in the gospels, as the church universal, and the church local (the latter to emphasize the direct approach to issues resolution, dispute reconciliation, and forgiveness in Mt. 18:15-22). Clearly this usage and the warnings to the Seven churches of the Revelation keep in mind that the church exists in all generations since the spreading of the Good News into the Nations. Was Paul also thinking of this when giving some of his statements on nations and people placements on Mars Hill?
Some interpreters call the time forward from the sending of the
Apostles the Church Age, or Age of Grace. Daniel includes this period in his Age of the Gentiles remarked there by a heavenly revelation of human history in relationship to his people, the Jews. Our Lord had this new church fellowship gathering placement in his mind even though he was sent to the Jews. He sent the Apostles as the guarantors of the faith into the Nations, who most often founded churches in locales.
Erika, actually I did not come up with more questions, for, you ignored direct questions in earlier posts. Until they were answered I have no more. Here are some recut and repasted for you, with other derived questions from your past remarks as well.
Are you aware that your approach to Biblical meaning is extremely self centered rather than original language Biblical passage meaning centered?
People may not agree with your interpretations based on their own understanding of Biblical meaning; can you accept that such meaning may be correct and may differ from what you state is the meaning of a passage?
Are you aware that your communication style can generate friction and resistance from others?
As servants of grace and truth then, what were the Apostles “empowered” to do and be? What were they conveying which differed from the 7 sons of Skcva, in Acts for example?
Since he was a Jewish Priest leader, should the Gentiles go to his place of practice to be taught by synagogues as you advocated they should? What was the Apostles’ personal experience with him and Jews as a result of their witness? Would this then evidence that it is the proper advocacy for Gentile believers to go to the synagogues for teaching?
You stated prior that you had a problem with the statement Paul made about the legal requirements of the law no longer applying to NT believers. Since apparently you think they do, how would believers then practice the 613 precepts of Moses? What would three such practices, in addition to those of the 10 commandments and celebrations of calendar obserbvances look like in your own considered observance of any of these 613?
You asked, how can we be living tabernacles for God if we live contrary to his character? Give examples of such living please, as you framed the question to be. Is not part of our calling to in fact become Christlike over time?
You [and Bo] write much on fulfillment of the law, and seem to interchange the law with Christ’s own commandments, are not these different? How are believers to observe the Law in your view? And I wonder what that observance would be for Bo too????
Bo, Yes, when e-mailing all caps would be shouting. In the blog use, above, it is strictly to contrast my insertions with yours, for easy reference. There is no opportunity to use Italics in this blog. No shouting intended. Have you replied to what I wrote there?
I like your statement on YHWH and Yeshua, but find that YHWH was not rendered as ‘Father’ much in the Tenach. Only twice is Father used there, once for a relationship with Judah, once with Israel, and is it YHWH in these instances? The personal Father access was ushered in with the revelation of the Messiah and the sending of the Holy Spirit (see John 13:31 through early 16). So, something changed by adding the prayer closet relationship and access.
It would be doubtful then that whatever is written of HaShem, or YHWH and the law, is interchangeable with the notion of obeying the commandments of Yeshua, which he called his own commandments. These would be those given during the incarnation. Telling too is how the Kingdom of God, or Heaven, would apply the “new” teaching with the old (Mt 13:52 as remarked prior to the conversion of the Apostles or Disciples being taught there). There is then new teaching.
What remains unclear is how Erkia and Bo apply the Law themselves, what their observances are, and whether they consider a legal requirement active for your own behavior and action. How does this then fit in with the letters of Paul, Peter, John and James? No one answered my question on what James sites as the Royal Law, or Precious Law of Liberty. It is clearly what Jesus taught as to how to treat one’s neighbor in simple application, not religious application.
January 12th, 2010 @ 10:06 pm
Also, without a temple system, it seems many of the precepts of the Law of Moses cannot be practiced. Since Jesus stood in the place of certain kinds of atonement and propitiation, is it necessary to now practice the Levitical Priesthood Laws> and how would this truth apply to other observances and precept applications apart from the National observances of Israel and Judah? How then, can followers of Jesus in fact and indeed keep the Law?
January 13th, 2010 @ 6:47 am
Jabez, I will not anwer to your attacks on my person.
As for the question though
“As servants of grace and truth then, what were the Apostles “empowered” to do and be? What were they conveying which differed from the 7 sons of Skeva, in Acts for example?”
I still don’t really understand this question – and I wrote here that I didn’t understand it. Hence my silence.
I think the difference between the Apostles and the sons of Sceva is very obvious. The sons of Sceva did NOT have God’s grace to empower them over the demons.
AS for the question
” What would three such practices, in addition to those of the 10 commandments and celebrations of calendar obserbvances look like in your own considered observance of any of these 613?
You asked, how can we be living tabernacles for God if we live contrary to his character? Give examples of such living please, as you framed the question to be. Is not part of our calling to in fact become Christlike over time?”
“Is not part of our calling to in fact become Christlike over time?”
Jabez, it is not just a part, it is our whole calling!
This is my whole motivation to post here – in order to show the Messiah.
Just like Bo said, there is no reason to think that Yeshua replaces YHWH, since they are one and the same.
So how would it look like to “Observe the Law” as you call it (I would rather call it “Following God”)
I have tried to answer this question in ALL my posts in this thread!! It is Christlike to observe the seven biblical feasts and the Shabbat – because they ALL tell us of Christ!!! They are designed ESPECIALLY for that purpose! If we don’t learn the meaning of all of these feasts we won’t have a clear understanding what Christ came to fulfill in our lives and in the future.
I also gave some references to recources on these and other topics. Here you have now at least eight practices to study and learn from.
Despite of our ignorance He still begins to fulfill some of these promises in our lives – but there is no reason for us to not learn and grow in Christ. On this basis Paul could write his letter to the Hebrews. But even the Hebrews had not grown up yet, as Paul expected.
And to the Romans he wrote: “Then what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the profit of circumcision? 3:2 Much in every way! Because first of all, they were entrusted with the oracles of God.” (Romans 3:1-2)
The Word of God is “in fact and indeed” kept through the Holy Spirit, the Ruakh Hakodesh, that we receive through accepting Yeshua. The Holy Spirit / Ruakh Hakodesh is God’s empowerment
for us!
January 13th, 2010 @ 7:13 am
P.S. No person ever had to keep all the 613 commandments, since no person is a man, a woman, a priest, a levite, a high priest, a mother, a father, a guard, a musician, a farmer, a child and so on at the same time.
As for the Temple: We are to be the first and foremost temple for God. If we look at the temple service, Yeshua shows us in parables how we are to be holy for Him!
The Holy of Holies should be our heart with God living in it. There are Gods laws – in our heart – and there is the Manna – it shows that God’s Word is life-giving. The seven lamps of God, which are His seven Spirits (as also shown in Revelation) should give their light to our hearts. Do you want me to start preaching now??
These are the Shadow pictures – they make us wise unto salvation as Paul says to Timothy (2. Tim. 3:15).
January 13th, 2010 @ 11:24 am
Erika, Thank you for not answering most questions, for ignoring once more your unsupported statement on synagogues and churches, for not retracting the stated issue on Paul and the church, etc.
I understand your feelings, listed above, it is your theology which remains unclearly comprehended, as to what you preach (based on that already posted needing further qualifications requested). A request was made about what aspects of the Law you would practice, other than those generally stated in the question, in three instances, not about how the 613 were catagorized. Thanks for not answering.
Answers requested may have cleared up much past asserted without much qualification other than what was requested. What you did state seems, in a sense, like a smoke screen or fog covering something perhaps deeper. As to such remarks, in your third paragraph as to what “should be” it remains unclear what is. Indeed shadow pictures are stated.
January 13th, 2010 @ 11:27 am
PS Where in Hebrews is it written that Paul was its author?
January 13th, 2010 @ 11:43 am
Erika, Another standing concern is your advocacy statement regarding Gentile believers in the first century going to synagogues for understanding Torah, from a misstatement made of the intention of Acts 15:21. I requested that you research how the Apostles were received in these settings, and whether that affirmed this understanding of the Acts 15 Jerusalem Council statement to the Gentiles on the Law (also appearing in Acts 21). The evidence indicates that most synagogue assemblies in Acts rejected the Messianic message officially, many persecuted Paul and the messengers involved, and actually physically attacked them in some instances. Certain controversy was stirred up in many of the cities so involved, rejecting these messengers in many instances. It seems then that it would be unwise for NT believers among the scattered tribes among the nations to attempt to ally with their persecutors for instruction.
January 13th, 2010 @ 11:55 am
Jabez, I’m really confused now. How did I not answer your question on how to keep God’s commandments??
I consider the Shabbat and the feasts of YHWH as the most significant parts of Torah, that’s why I started with them. If we don’t start with them, we don’t need to start at all in my opinion. This is a very significant part of the Law of Moses and YHWH / Yeshua!
Do you want me now to explain HOW I keep them? Well, I think that here we have a lot of freedom HOW to keep them, as long as the true message of Yeshua in them is not blurred.
Concerning the statements on Paul – who is here insisting on someone else retracting his statement in an authoritative manner, me or you??
What is now the question concerning my third paragraph? I don’t know what problem you have with that. As I said before: Without a shadow picture there is no education. So if we look at these things (like the Temple for example), we see a parable that we SHOULD apply to our own lives. If we indeed do this, is between us and God. As James said: We SHOULD be doers of the Word, not hearers alone. But not everyone IS a doer of the Word of course.
Should = it is God’s requirement for us to be a dwelling place for Him – but not everyone is a dwelling place for YHWH, although it is required.
What kind of smokescreen are you talking about?? The Temple teaches us how to be holy for God – the question is just whether we want to learn or not.
January 13th, 2010 @ 12:03 pm
Jabez, I never attempted to promote allying with persecutors for instruction – what I was saying was that there is a purpose for the setting of the “Old Testament” – and this setting WILL teach us how to follow Yeshua, if we are teachable. The persecutors of believers in Paul’s time came from the Jewish and Gentile side alike (for instance in Ephesus the persecution came from Greek pagans).
This setting of the Old Testament is there to teach us, and we will miss out on a lot of treasures if we just ignore this.
January 13th, 2010 @ 12:42 pm
Concerning the letter to the Hebrews it is assumed today by most scolars that Paul was its autor, that’s why I too assume it. Would you have another assumption? Paul was educated at the feet of Gamliel and therefore could relate very well to the topics discussed in this letter.
January 13th, 2010 @ 12:47 pm
Erika, Questions placed to you on your style of communication were not meant as “attacks,” but were made as opportunities for self knowledge in the mix of your “preaching.” None of us can divorce our delivery from our human personality, package, history and preferences. Taking stands for advocacy however, need be for a believer, conditioned by scripture. After studying a passage for original intention, one then examines other passages of alike intention. Intention of what was originally meant started the reformation in Europe at a critical time in chruch history.
“Biblical Exegesis” is something one can search for a faithful scholarly approach through definitions made by watchmen on the walls of the church on the internet. Having a complete concordance too helps, then one can qualify their understanding of what original language word appears in a given passage and other passages as representing a translated concept, theme, idea, matter, or word.
I wonder what is needed at this critical time in church history?
January 13th, 2010 @ 1:00 pm
Well Jabez, I think I’d rather not continue to “preach”, otherwise I’ll get my next roasting. Shalom and be well.
Erika
January 14th, 2010 @ 6:10 am
Bo, You worked hard on your Jan 7th posting on covenants. I post some below.
If we have accepted Messiah, we are Israelites. All the covenants apply to us now. From Noah’s to Abraham’s to the Mosaic to the New Covenant. As you will see below you cannot disannul a covenant. YHWH’s words abide forever. His covenants are His words (promises) to us if we join His Bride Israel….
The new covenant is for Israel. It is not promised to the gentiles.(See below) The foreigner must become an Israelite to partake of any of the covenants of promise, including the New covenant. Y’shua didn’t come to make the Law of YHWH of none effect. He can’t; it abides forever. It is His revelation of righteous and holy living. The New covenant is YHWH’s law written on our hearts instead of on stone. It is Him causing us to love His law and thus do it instead of an outward imposition to try to live up to. The Law does not change, the person’s heart does. Note that in Heb. 8:8 He found fault with THEM (the people) not the Law. So the New covenant fixes the people so that they love and obey His unchanging Law….
The person in New covenant wants to obey YHWH’s law. That is what having it written on our hearts means.
At first such logic seems OK, the difficulty is that there are left out of your formula other scripture on whos who. It does present a problem to attempt to define who is Israel from the NT writings of Paul, of which your logic seems, at first, to address. You, of course, know the error of replacement theology–generated for some from the Romans 9-11 passage, a logic which even early Church History, and later Church denominal foundations often embrace. That passage mentions Gentiles being grafted in, which at one point earlier on you use some reasoning about space requirements to the tree analogy. You state that there is limited space for grafting due to branch composition mass occupancy so to speak [with you logic], mentioning a concept that Jews had to be removed to grant space for grafting in Gentiles. Perhaps, but this thinking seems to ignore that Paul’s own ideas were built of analogy, not of a literal tree.
Here it is a different problem of argumentation, which is that now that the Gentiles are included in the family tree, all the prior statements of covenant given the Jews now apply to them. Unfortunately this ignores the reference, time, place, and populations bonded to these timely positioned covenants. Though covenants be teleological, they are not necessarily reverse tunnelological. In other words, we cannot project present conversion populations into the past as to what covenants rendered in fact for those with whom they took effect in the past.
It does present a very vital scriptural riddle I have requested input from Dr. Brown in the past. The riddle? Taking into account all of Paul’s statements and writings on Israel, who does he say composes Israel in all instances? And so, where and when is natural Israel differentiated from all inclusions and exclusions resulting from Paul’s overall definitions of the Israel people of God in light of the New Covenant inclusions?
When one reads Daniel, with its heavenly revealed history of the Gentiles, and the Jews in relationship to the Jews placement in the Middle East, in the Promised Land, new questions are raised on who is in the mix of definition. Daniel writes of his people, at the time of the latter end. Whos who in that context also becomes a part and parcel to prophetic inclusions and exclusions due to what Bo outlines above. Many spiritualize certain prophecies, and accept literally others. Some say some prophecies go both ways on inclusions and exclusions. The question becomes a large one as to prophetic futures, the Millennium
January 14th, 2010 @ 6:10 am
Bo, You worked hard on your Jan 7th posting on covenants. I post some below.
If we have accepted Messiah, we are Israelites. All the covenants apply to us now. From Noah’s to Abraham’s to the Mosaic to the New Covenant. As you will see below you cannot disannul a covenant. YHWH’s words abide forever. His covenants are His words (promises) to us if we join His Bride Israel….
The new covenant is for Israel. It is not promised to the gentiles.(See below) The foreigner must become an Israelite to partake of any of the covenants of promise, including the New covenant. Y’shua didn’t come to make the Law of YHWH of none effect. He can’t; it abides forever. It is His revelation of righteous and holy living. The New covenant is YHWH’s law written on our hearts instead of on stone. It is Him causing us to love His law and thus do it instead of an outward imposition to try to live up to. The Law does not change, the person’s heart does. Note that in Heb. 8:8 He found fault with THEM (the people) not the Law. So the New covenant fixes the people so that they love and obey His unchanging Law….
The person in New covenant wants to obey YHWH’s law. That is what having it written on our hearts means.
At first such logic seems OK, the difficulty is that there are left out of your formula other scripture on whos who. It does present a problem to attempt to define who is Israel from the NT writings of Paul, of which your logic seems, at first, to address. You, of course, know the error of replacement theology–generated for some from the Romans 9-11 passage, a logic which even early Church History, and later Church denominal foundations often embrace. That passage mentions Gentiles being grafted in, which at one point earlier on you use some reasoning about space requirements to the tree analogy. You state that there is limited space for grafting due to branch composition mass occupancy so to speak [with you logic], mentioning a concept that Jews had to be removed to grant space for grafting in Gentiles. Perhaps, but this thinking seems to ignore that Paul’s own ideas were built of analogy, not of a literal tree.
Here it is a different problem of argumentation, which is that now that the Gentiles are included in the family tree, all the prior statements of covenant given the Jews now apply to them. Unfortunately this ignores the reference, time, place, and populations bonded to these timely positioned covenants. Though covenants be teleological, they are not necessarily reverse tunnelological. In other words, we cannot project present conversion populations into the past as to what covenants rendered in fact for those with whom they took effect in the past.
It does present a very vital scriptural riddle I have requested input from Dr. Brown in the past. The riddle? Taking into account all of Paul’s statements and writings on Israel, who does he say composes Israel in all instances? And so, where and when is natural Israel differentiated from all inclusions and exclusions resulting from Paul’s overall definitions of the Israel people of God in light of the New Covenant inclusions?
When one reads Daniel, with its heavenly revealed history of the Gentiles, and the Jews in relationship to the Jews placement in the Middle East, in the Promised Land, new questions are raised on who is in the mix of definition. Daniel writes of his people, at the time of the latter end. Whos who in that context also becomes a part and parcel to prophetic inclusions and exclusions due to what Bo outlines above. Many spiritualize certain prophecies, and accept literally others. Some say some prophecies go both ways on inclusions and exclusions. The question becomes a large one as to prophetic futures, the Millennium
January 14th, 2010 @ 6:15 am
continued–
and who is involved in the events of the return, and future rule with the Messiah.
The question then of who is Israel in scripture, and its future application, as well as present intentions since the visitation is an important one. I have asked Dr. Brown on many occasions to address this question, never done.
Asher Intrater, of Revive Israel, a messianic community in Israel and the USA who walks their talk, and has a resident school in Israel (and live according to scriptural covenants in many ways) has much to say on this subject as is derived from the present working with whos who on these questions. I would suggest keeping watch on his community’s progress and vision as to future prophetic fulfillments and these matters.
January 14th, 2010 @ 6:23 am
Erika, Knowing your zeal, and commitmentment (though sometimes displaced due to a lack of knowledge, which will come) and some of your heart, you could make an inquiry of the community I just mentioned as to your own schooling. They teach in Hebraic but offer Messianic credentials for working with Messianic congregations (synagogues or ecclesias?).
January 14th, 2010 @ 8:24 am
Thanks for that information Jabez, I will look into it.
As for how to discern these times we are living in, also regarding the Millenium, I was just talking to my mother this morning about it, and we saw a very interesting thing:
If you have a look at the last two chapters of Zechariah, chapters 12 – 14, it is described there all the turmoil of the end time, which is often referred to as “the great tribulation”.
In the beginning you see that God Himself is starting this turmoil (chapter 12:1-2). Why does He bring this turmoil about?
If you read through these chapters you will find that there is a major difference between the time before all the turmoil and the time after it. The difference is found in Zech. 14:16-19
Before the turmoil people don’t care about Jerusalem and even go against it. After the turmoil
“It will happen that everyone who is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem will GO UP from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, and to KEEP THE FEAST OF BOOTHS. 14:17 It will be, that whoever of all the families of the earth doesn’t go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Hosts, on them there will be no rain. 14:18 If the family of Egypt doesn’t go up, and doesn’t come, neither will it rain on them. This will be the plague with which the LORD will strike the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths. 14:19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that don’t go up to keep the feast of booths.”
So the big question is: Why does God bring all this turmoil about? Maybe he wants us to keep the feast of booths?
Also in Revelation we read about this feast, Tabernacles, in Rev. 21:3
“I heard a loud voice out of heaven saying, “Behold, God’s tabernacle is with people, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.”
So we see that the feast of Tabernacles was first instituted by Moses as a rememberance that God was with the Israelites while they journied through the desert. If you ask Rabbis in Jerusalem, they say that this is the reason for the feast of Tabernacles:
Deutoronomy 29:5
“I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes have not grown old on you, and your shoes have not grown old on your feet. 29:6 You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink; that you may know that I am the LORD your God.” – God cares about His people and lives among them.
Second, in the Millenium our own wellfare will depend on this institution of the feast of Tabernacles, that God calls “His feast” (Leviticus 23:4).
And third, the best Tabernacle we will have on the new earth and the new heaven, when God Himself will wipe aways all tears from our eyes (Rev. 21:4) – this is the ultimate fulfillment of Tabernacles. Now we are required to get prepared for it!
This shows how the setting of the Old Testament prepares us for the future, and the great tribulation will ultimately bring everything back into its right order. Yes, Yeshua is the ultimate fulfillment of Torah.
January 14th, 2010 @ 8:34 am
Oh sorry, I meant the last three chapters of Zechariah, chapters 12, 13 and 14.
January 14th, 2010 @ 11:58 am
Erika, I knew what you meant. I am a Messianic believer born in the year Israel became a nation. Another reason for the fulfillment of such passages is to bring to pass the return, where the house of Israel becomes a house of prayer for the Nations. All such prophecy is vital to the planned future of redemption and the Return. Acts. 3:21.
January 14th, 2010 @ 12:47 pm
So Jabez, you said in your first comment above on January 7
“Unless you are a Jewish believer, and then only by choice, does their own calendar become meaningful. We have freedom in the Messiah.”
Of course everybody has his free will and free choice. We can choose whatever we want. But we can’t choose the consequences of our choices. What does “Freedom in Messiah” mean? That in Messiah we are free to parttake in the covenant which God in the beginning only made with physical Israel, because Messiah is the true essence of that Covenant. That means that only in Him are we able to fulfill God’s Laws in Spirit and Truth.
When we read through these last three chapters of Zechariah, it seems to be a bad choice not to follow the Law of Moses in Yeshua’s Spirit.
January 14th, 2010 @ 2:13 pm
Jabez,
You wrote this,
“You state that there is limited space for grafting due to branch composition mass occupancy so to speak [with you logic], mentioning a concept that Jews had to be removed to grant space for grafting in Gentiles. ”
Because I wrote this,
“Some of the natural branches have been broken off to make room for some of us wild olive shoots to be grafted into Israel and thus be granted citizenship, sonship and inheritance.”
Because Paul wrote this,
“And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.”
I guess I didn’t quite choose the best wording in my paraphrase. I didn’t mean to imply that room was needed to be made for the wild olive branches. I was just attempting to show that gentiles are grafted into Israel. Sorry for the poor choice of words.
I do not accept replacement theology, in case there is any question in your mind about that.
Here is a passage that I left out of my 1/7/10 post.
Deut. 29
10 ¶ Ye stand this day all of you before the LORD your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, with all the men of Israel,
11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that is in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and that he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day:
16 (For ye know how we have dwelt in the land of Egypt; and how we came through the nations which ye passed by;
17 And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them:)
18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law:
We see here that YHWH makes this covenant with all that were there that day and all that were not there that day. That pretty much includes everyone in every age, I think.
The “root that beareth gall and wormwood” is the same as the “root of bitteness” in Hebrews chapter 12. So if we decide that we do not have to do all that YHWH specifies and think that the curses will not come upon us though we walk after our own ideas, we are in big trouble. If we think we can have peace with YHWH while we are disobedient to the words of “this covenant”, we are badly mistaken.
So if a “man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God to go and serve the gods of these nations” by practicing their pagan customs on their pagan days of worship, what does it mean?
I think that we deceive ourselves and “walk afer the imagination of our own hearts” when we celebrate these pagan customs. The heart of man is deceitfully wicked. That is why YHWH spells out so clearly that we should not do things like the heathen. He says not to add to or take away from what He has written. To add Christmas to His holy days is wrong. To take away from His commandments by not celebrating His holy days is wrong.
So, what if a large group of believers (tribe?) neglects YHWH’s feasts and starts practicing their own celebrations? What if they say that they can have peace with YHWH because their hearts are right? What if this tribe of people started out as a spotless bride and now has become a great harlot that commits adultery with all the nations? (She takes the truth of scripture and mixes it with pagan worship?) (Rev. 17)
The Word has been sown and there are few that produce fruit, because of the cares of this life and such. An enemy has planted tares (false believers) among the good seed. The kingdom of heaven has been corrupted with leaven (sin and false doctrine). It has MUTATED into a huge mustard tree so that the fouls (every foul spirit and unclean and hateful bird of Rev. 18:2) of the air nest in its branches.(Mat.13:1-52)
This is the context that “Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.” is given in. (Remember you asked me what this means.) Do you realize (have you been instructed in the kingdom) that the judgment of YHWH is coming to His house first. (1 Pet.4:17) We must get rid of even the appearance of evil. Do Christmas, Lent, Easter, Advent, Sunday Sabbath and such appear evil to YHWH? There is a way that seems right to a man but the end thereof are the ways of death.
We need to come out from among this tribe and not partake of her sins so that we will not partake of her judgments.(Rev. 18) The end is close and “knowledge has increased” (Dan. 12:1-4) so that we can see these things and put on our wedding garments and fill our lamps with oil and be invited to the Lamb’s wedding feast.(Mat. 25 and Rev.19)
Jabez, I mean no insult in this. This is very serious. I hope you will consider these things carefully. I am not judging you. I only wish you the best. We need to be hot or cold not lukewarm (mixing YHWH’s word with the worlds ideas).
I really have spent all the time I have right now. So I probably will not be able to post for awhile. I have been challenged by your thoughts. I have been compelled to study and meditate on the Word more. I appreciate your time and effort in this dialogue. I am sorry if you felt ganged up on. I think “iron has sharpened iron.” Stand strong on the truth. I wish you true Shalom.
Mal. 4
4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Shalom
January 16th, 2010 @ 10:57 am
Once again, interesting logic, Bo. I note with some detachment that you have not answered any questions which were jointly placed in a previous blog entry to you and Erika. Although you gave a sincerity oath on your past associations and efforts regarding your beliefs and personal history in reference to past personal advocacies of stated conviction, it remains unclear how these too have been applied and worked into your own testimony of faith in life. So, according to Yeshua, who is a faithful witness: one who proclaims sincerity, or one whose fruit is additionally observable and qualifiable who washed their life trappings in the blood of the Lamb?
Why is this important to readers here at all, if one can remain involved here without a personal testimony linkage to personal history and the blood of the Lamb, and yet still comment at will as being the supposed representative of the redemptive plan of God?
Might it be because others cannot tell the dancer from the dance unless the dance is seen and experienced along with any absolute statements made by someone in using scripture in asserting its inclusion and exclusion? How has the passage you quoted as a supposed requirement of linkage to being of the people of God then been applied throughout the Bible, as to your logic, on all others of faith? This is telling indeed as to an interpretation offered as to the passage being a yoke of presumption or a yoke of fact: of believers in Yeshua/Jesus.
The dance mentioned above, where you have excluded Christmas and Advent for all other hearts and minds of a New Covenant faith, only permits a view of these as pagan in application. And as is so by your statements in spite of any clarifying redemption message history of a given nation, or other known faithful contexts. Significantly, this once more ignores altogether Paul’s Mars Hill declaration on God’s own design in placing peoples, nations, and time in juxtaposition to predetermined God determined plans of redemption for such.
So, aren’t you limiting God’s own plan by an interpretive pronouncment of a quoted Torah scripture passage as to asserting an absolute and all encompassing interpretation of its meaning and intention? And, in the process, placing this above most other scripture as to defining the whole people of God’s inclusion and exclusion by clipping in a contextless selective definition? Where would this agree with the adoption and election statements of Paul, and how might it fit into the Gospels’ redemption offerings? Where is it found then requoted as required in the New Testament? And, if so, how is it referenced?
Since Babylon in Genesis the tongues of men have been diverse, which also helped draw the present boundaries of nations and peoples, tribes, and kindred. Hebrew, Aramaic, or even once common Greek have not become the international language, in spite of Biblical belief in any nation, but English has become close to being such now of the media Age of the Gentiles. How is such reality as is of our earth’s history in Christ indeed relevant to the key clipped scripture you thought defines inclusion and exclusion?
The importance of context becomes very apparent as to qualifying what you posted and attempted by a brief exposition for a larger magification of its meaning. Especially in light of the above paragraphs and the contents of the New Testament we have to examine your assertion of intention. If the Deut. section represents a continuum of God’s people, as to inclusion and exclusion, for all peoples, nations, kindreds and tribes over time, would it not be then so repeated by all the Apostles as an essential point to the message of the One Sent? Would it not be found too among the 7 Kingdom passages of Mt. 13? It is remarkably absent.
Why is it not so repeated, again and again as key to Kingdom inclusion requirements? Was it of the message to Nicodemus? It seems this question has to do with context, and a teleological measure of any scripture, where Yeshua is the same yesterday, today, and forever. It is Yeshua having established the New and Living way, not the Law statements of past Biblical history as were founded among the history of its given region. What you seem to be suggesting is in fact addressed in Ezkl 47:21 and 22 as to the passage and its fulfillment there over time.
Lets examine your convictions and logic. Since Yeshua stated that John the Baptiser was the fulfillment of the statement on Elijah you also cited, and Yeshua stopped reading the section of Isaiah on who he was on his first reading of it in his local assembly (just prior to its next statement on the Day of the Lord), what is to be learned by your Deut. passage emphasis not being picked up with NT statements of its fulfillment then in the fullness of His visitation time? What is then the statement of relevance to your quotation as you made it above? Does Yeshua in fact ever mention it in his ongoing teaching at all as to being included or excluded from his own offering to be of the whole people of God?
Context.
Your quotation is about the “tribes of Israel,” not the whole people of God, the numberless multitude of Revelation.
January 16th, 2010 @ 1:22 pm
Just a short note here Jabez.
As I said before, this is at least not for me – but I also think not for Bo about inclusion or exclusion from Yeshua’s redemption work.
His redemption work saves us – not matter in what state we are – if we accept it.
In Acts 10 in the story of Cornelius we then see that by Cornelius living a righteous life, which showes His repentance from paganism, and by praying to God all the time, he found grace in God’s eyes and “got saved” if you will – this was the inclusion in Yeshua’s redemption work.
We see though that in Peter’s vision in Acts 10 this vision was not about food, but about people who were WILLING to be included into the covenant of the God of Israel. They were not to be called “unclean” just because they had not jumped through all the rabbinical hoops of the time.
You see, Cornelius was a righteous man, praying to God all the time, but none of the Apostles ever had visited him, because God’s covenant was considered by them as being only for Israel.
In the story of Cornelius there is no hint that now the Israelites could do whatever all the others did or that all the others never had to repent, rather it shows that God’s covenant with Israel was now also extended to all the rest of the world through Yeshua to those who were WILLING to change their lives like Cornelius, as the Apostles say in Acts 11:18
“When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, “THEN GOD HAS ALSO GRANTED TO THE GENTILES REPENTANCE TO LIFE!”
You mentioned Paul’s Mars Hill declaration quite often, so I’ll give you now the context for it:
Acts 17:16 –> Paul’s spirit was provoked by all the idolatry in this place.
Acts 17:19-21 –> Paul was put on the spot by curious people.
Acts 17:22-31 –> Paul shares the good news effectively to pagan Greeks.
My question is: does Paul now after the conversion of some of these pagans endorse their life style and just said “give it now a new meaning”? I cannot see this AT ALL in this text. Paul rather says in Acts 17:29 and 30
“Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man. The times of ignorance therefore God OVERLOOKED. BUT NOW he commands that ALL people EVERYWHERE should repent”.
Paul says this even to yet unconverted people!!!
This is my answer to your Mars Hill question. We have to reach the people, but we have to lead them to God without endorsing vain life style.
The Mars Hill declaration was all about salvation. But we HAVE to continue from there on the narrow path leaving everything behind we were accustomed to. If we don’t do that, we will always remain babes in the faith.
I have said in other posts on this blog before that our salvation has to go beyond just “accepting Yeshua in our heart” and meaning it well. After that there starts another salvation process which will determine our place in God’s kingdom in the future. It’s not about who gets the best place, but its all about how to live and show Messiah – how to represent Him here on earth. This is why Bo and I are posting here.
Matthew 5:19
If you compare now the verses 19 and 20 with each other, you will see that there is a vast difference between the Oral Law of the Pharisees and the Law of Moses.
In this conflict about the Oral Law and Pharisaical authority the Pharisees repeatedly challenged Yeshua in the gospel of John asking Him were he got His authority from that He sat against them, because the crowds now started to follow Yeshua instead of following them which they found quite inconvenient (this just in reference to a previous post).
In Zechariah 14:16-19 we can see how the proper order lookes like, and that should be our goal.
January 16th, 2010 @ 2:48 pm
Well, As for a Biblical basis for observance, and inclusion and exclusion in the whole people of God as applying to the passage Bo introduced, this was the primary consideration for a response. His advocacy lacked certain context and championed other context not really of the passage. Even in the Revelation the tribes 144,000 appear seperately from those multitudes without number, both saved groups of people.
I have studied the nuances of the oral vs. written law in the season of the visitation. Again, John 8 is dealing with the hearts of the critics, not their beliefs, for, they have rejected the Sent One. This is not so much about oral vs. written but it is about the receptivity or lack and what the price was. I think of Yeshua in that interchange as informing the other audience, i.e. the readers of the conflict and His assertion of identity, i.e. those of us of faith reading the scriptures and believing in Him.
January 16th, 2010 @ 3:32 pm
The Mars Hill declaration is also very important to understanding what God has determined in reference to peoples, nations, boundaries, and placements in time factoring into the redemptive plans and intentions of God. It takes to task a limited view of interaction and blessing, such as Bo asserts, above.
January 17th, 2010 @ 8:37 am
I think that the 144,000 will be the “missionaries” of the Millennial Kingdom who will finally bring about the change of Zechariah 14:16ff
How about that?
January 17th, 2010 @ 10:40 pm
Cetainly Erika, One view is that this number from the trives will be missionaries. Another view is that they will link both covenants with the same kind of purity which Yeshua himself lived. In other words, that they too will fulfill righteousness as part of the fulfillment of Tenach prophecy.
We can speculate where Asher Intrater has developed considerable prayerful research and development from scripture and living faith communities in Israel on this calling for those of the tribes. Bo seems to want what he quoted from Deut. to extend as a standard to all people of belief everywhere. Since the plan of redemption for Israel in the last days, final events, is predetermined and vital to the return, it may be wise to hear what the Spirit is saying to the saints today in the beautiful Land. Acts. 3:21 ia also in play in the matter. And He, not we, is in charge of His plan of redemption, a reflection of the wisdom of that cited community.
January 17th, 2010 @ 11:02 pm
Erika, and all, In regard to what I wrote above please see
http://www.revive-israel.org/2010/01-03-praying-for-revival-in-israel.html
This year’s articles from Asher are telling of what is occurring now in terms of vision and plan for redemption.
January 18th, 2010 @ 7:12 am
Thank you Jabez, but “those of the tribes” can certainly NOT identify themselves anymore, except the Spirit is revealing it to them, since the Northern Kingdom of Israel is lost to humanity since 721 BCE (but not lost to YHWH).
Secondly, these 144,000 wil certainly play the role of “turning the hearts of the children to the hearts of the fathers (Malachi 4:6)
Thus they will be missionaries IN reconciling different people groups – those groups that always thought “this covenant is only for the Jews” – this will be their true mission. As I said – they will bring about the change of Zechariah 14:16-19.
I think it is always great to work together with people in Israel, but it’s not wrong to use our own brain either. There are no covenants that are exclusively made for certain people groups. All the covenants that were made were made for the purpose of spreading God’s Kingdom all over the earth – for EVERYBODY!!! I also laid this out in my last response to the December 21 discussion.
In Genesis 18:19 we read:
“For I have known him, to the end that he may command his children and his household after him, that they may keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice.”
God chose Abraham as a means of establishing His Kingdom on earth. Abraham was the beginning, Yeshua will accomplish it.
These are man-made walls that Yeshua came to break down (Ephesians 2:14), what you also can see in the event of Cornelius. Anybody who wants to keep Torah is free to do it, and the One who approves this is God by pooring out His Spirit. The approval comes from God, not from man.
January 18th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm
P.S. these covenants were made WITH certain people groups (the house of Israel and the house of Judah) – but they were made in order to bring the knowledge of YHWH to the whole world.
So they were made WITH certain people, but FOR everybody. It is understandable though, that the Jews have seperated themselves from other peoples in order to not get assimilated, since the “FOR everybody” can only come about through Yeshua – through His supernatural power to change the lives of people.
So there is no “Torah-group” and “without-Torah-group” in the body of Messiah – we ALL should follow YHWH’s Law in Spirit and Truth. Or does anybody want to tell me that the oracles of God are not ment for Gentiles??? Thank you very much – this is indeed racism! Sorry, this is not meant to be mean in any way – but I guess some Messianics don’t have a clue what they are saying when they are saying that kind of stuff. It is just as if they would say: “Yeshua is not meant for Gentiles!”.
January 22nd, 2010 @ 1:08 am
Erika, we covered Acts 15 already about Gentile requirements of the law as adjudicated by the Jerusalem council, and the Mars Hill declaration on people groups, nations, tribes among them, etc. Also, if one wants to know their tribe if Jewish there are DNA research sites which can bring this to pass. The 144,000 of the Revelation are identified by tribe for fulfillment of calling. Which tribes play into the end events changes over time from the Torah period to the Revelation by slight differences in whos who. An interesting study for certain.
It seems like we deal with the issues you raised, then you reraise them as though no interchange on these matters happened here, thus ignoring the evidence from scripture you were given on these matters altogether. Dialogue, not monologue, is the stuff of iron sharpening iron.
February 6th, 2010 @ 9:39 am
Jabez, the reason I reraise these issues again is because I think that scripture clearly teaches us something else than what you are conveying here. Again – I don’t accept the idea that there is an acceptable and recommendable split in the body of Messiah. In Acts 11:18 the Apostles clearly state that the gentiles now could be INCLUDED into Yahweh’s covenant with Israel – and in Acts 15:21 we clearly see that it the was common practice of the time to hear Yahweh’s Word in the synagogues!
And if you want to know for a fact – the three commandments in Acts 15:28-29 were the regular commandments for people who wanted to attend the synagogues – these commandments were NOT a new idea of the Apostles!
First you learn the three commandments – then you learn the ten commandments – and finally you shlould grow up to know the whole Word of Yahweh!
Hebrews 5:10-13
“named by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. 5:11 About him we have many words to say, and hard to interpret, seeing you have become dull of hearing. 5:12 For although by this time you should be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food. 5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby. 5:14 But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil. ”
Also Peter states CLEARLY in 2.Peter 3:16
“In those (letters of Paul), there are some things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the Scriptures, to their own destruction.” – So we have to learn the scriptures – the TORAH dear Jabez – or what Scriptures was Peter talking about???
If we don’t recognize that the message of Yeshua starts in GENESIS already, we have our heads FULL of Replacement Theology!
Luke 24:25-27
“He said to them, “Foolish men, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 24:26 Didn’t the Messiah have to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” 24:27 Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.”
If we don’t know Yeshua from the BEGINNING ON we will finally come up with “another Jesus” – the replacement of little Tammuz who was born on December 25th and for whom you have to do a forty-day lent (because he died at age 40 in an hunting accident) before you honor his mother the sex-godess Easter
who allegedly after her death landed in the Euphrates river in a giant egg which broke open, she stepped out if it and as a sign of her divinity turned a flying bird into an egg-laying rabbit, which resulted in the practice of dying eggs in the blood of sacrificed children in her honor.
February 26th, 2010 @ 5:15 pm
Oh yeah – a cool video here on this topic:
http://www.michaelroodministries.com/bunny_down.htm
- since we have arrived at Passover time already and hopefully will leave Easter far behind us
Shalom my friends!!