You also asked “Also take note of all of the old testament scriptures that are referred to as prophecies about Jesus.”

Great suggestion, let’s take a look at just two prophecies concerning the Messiah, in the tanakh.

Isaiah 9:5 (V. 6 in Christian-English translations)

“‘For a child has been born to us a son has been given to us and the government shall be on his shoulder and his name is called, Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Father Forever, Prince of Peace.”

Interesting, “el gibor” – mighty God, go over to Isaiah 10:21 and you see Yahweh being called “el gibor”.

Psalm 45:6-7

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness, therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Blessing,

Eric.

You asked the question “…what did the Apostles believe about Jesus identity?”

Excellent question,

2 Peter 1:1
” Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Titus 2:13
“Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus”

John 20:28
“Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!””

“what did the Apostles believe about Jesus identity?”

According to those 3 passages I just posted; Christ/Messiah, Lord, God, great God and Savior.

Michael’s last words: “Oh. He didn’t pre-exist??” so perfectly show that he hasn’t even read Kermit’s book beforehand… which is simply not the fair way… And besides Michael: If the truth is on your side, why can’t you just stop again and again interrupting your opponent right in the middle of his arguement?

That’s all I wanted to say… Thanks

Rev 4-5 does not prove that God is a triune Being, it only proves that there are 2 individual beings in the vision: God the Father ["Him Who sits on the throne"] and His one-of-a-kind Son ["the Lamb"].

But granted, if this vision is somehow revealing this mysterious triune God, where is your third person, the Holy Spirit? Why aren’t we privy of this foundational trinitarian truth in the final scene of the whole Revelation? Where is “the throne of the Holy Spirit”? Why isn’t “he” included in these last visions of the New Heavens and Earth?

Behold, the dwelling place of God [one person] is with man. He [singular pronoun] will dwell with them, and they will be his [singular pronoun] people, and God himself [singular pronoun] will be with them as their God. Rev 21.3

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God [one person] gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb [one person]. Rev 21.23

No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God [one person] and of the Lamb [one person] will be in it, and his [God, one person] servants will worship him [singular pronoun]. They will see his [singular pronoun] face, and his [singular pronoun] name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God [one person] will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. Rev 22.3-5

We note that the One sitting upon the throne is “God” and that “the Lamb” is separate and distinct from the One is identified as “God” and “Him who sits on the throne.” Therefore, “the Lamb” cannot be God. If the God who sits on the throne is the three Persons of the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), and the Lamb is sitting upon an additional throne, then the Lamb has to be sitting upon two thrones. Why is the Father not also sitting upon two thrones? And why is there no mention at all of a throne for the Holy Spirit?

Similarly, at Rev. 21:22 the apostle John reports:

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

If “the Lamb” is “the Lord God Almighty,” why are they separated by the conjunction “and” as though they are separate entities? Would it have made any sense if John had said “the Lord God Almighty and the Father”? Of course not! But it does make sense to say “the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb” because “the Lamb” is not “the Lord God Almighty” as is the Father.

The Revelation of John frequently shows that God and the Lamb and the Holy Spirit are not the same:

Rev. 5:13: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” (Note that the Holy Spirit is not included in this blessing by every creature.)

Rev. 7:10: “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” (Note that the great multitude ascribe salvation to God and the Lamb, but not to the Holy Spirit.)

Rev 11:15: “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.” (Note that the Holy Spirit is missing from the message of the seventh and last trumpet.)

Rev. 12:10: “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come.” (Note that the Holy Spirit is not mentioned.)

Rev. 14:1: “Behold, a Lamb . . ., and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.” (Note that the name of the Holy Spirit is not written on their foreheads.)

Rev. 14:4: “These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.” (Note that they are not firstfruits to the Holy Spirit.)

Rev 14:12: “The saints . . . who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” (Note that the Holy Spirit is missing.)

Rev. 19:6-7: “The Lord God Omnipotent reigns! Let us . . . give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come.” (The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.)

Rev. 20:4: “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, . . . And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Why do they not also reign with the Father and with the Holy Spirit if the Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit are together in the Godhead?)

Rev. 20:6: “They shall be priests of God and of Christ.” (Why are they not also priests of the Holy Spirit?)

Jesus is also said to sit upon God’s throne, but that does not make him God. If it does, then we must conclude that David and Solomon also were members of the Godhead:

1 Chron. 29:23: “Then Solomon sat on the throne of YHWH [LORD God] as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.”

Jesus sits upon God’s throne, not because he is God, but because his God and Father has granted him that wonderful honour, just as Jesus grants his disciples the honour of sitting upon his own throne:

Rev. 3:21: “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.”

Believers will be “kings and priests” while Christ is “King of kings” and “High Priest over the house of God.” (Rev. 1:6; 17:14; Heb. 10:21) The following texts also show that the Church will rule with Christ in his future kingdom:

Rev. 5:10: “And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.”

Rev. 20:4: “And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”

In conclusion, we note that in Rev. 22:1-5, the “servants,” “face,” and “name” of only one Person are mentioned. That one Person is obviously “the Lord God” who sits upon “the throne of God.” (Verse 5)

You dodged Revelation 4-5 friend. Here’s how chapter 5 concludes:

“Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.”

Here you have “every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them” worshiping the One who is seated on the throne and the Lamb with the same worship. The context very clearly is religious worship.

Also note that if Jesus was created then he would be part of the those (every creature) worshiping here. In counterpoint he is recognized here as being worshiped with the Father by “every creature”.

I’ve listened to some of your debates. I became aware of them through James White. Kermit responded to an email I sent him last night and unfortunately he says he’s not interested in a debate right now. His hands are full. Maybe in the future?