February 19, 2010 : Line of Fire

February 19, 2010

February 19, 2010 | 75 Comments

Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions (including Messianic Jews; Head Coverings and Prayer Shawls; and The Unpardonable Sin)

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Category: Church, Doctrine, Q & A Show

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75 Responses to “February 19, 2010”

Eleazar Gonzalez
February 21st, 2010 @ 10:48 am

Dear Sirs:
I just became aware of Dr. Brown’s ministry. Thank God for the work of this brilliant servant of God. God bless you. I hope to be able to support the work as I am able.
Eleazar
Bo
February 21st, 2010 @ 4:20 pm

I, for one, do not think that men wearing prayer shawls and women not wearing coverings is the unpardonable sin

It doesn’t apear to be a matter of culture though. Unless you are talking about Biblical or Kingdom of Heaven culture. In which case we should be obedient to the teachings of scripture. Though there are believers on both sides of this issue, there is still the truth of the matter to deal with.

If the Law of YHWH is not binding on believers in Messiah, then why did Y’Shua declare it to be in effect till heaven and earth pass away in Matthew 5? Certainly, no one is saved by keeping Torah, but we are supposed to walk as Y’shua walked. If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts it won’t be a hard thing to do. Will it?

The question should never be, “Do I have to keep Torah?”, but it should be “I have done all that you ccommanded, is there anything else I can do to please you?” (Luke 17:7-10) We have the things we ask of YHWH if we “keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.” (1 John 3:22)

We have a choice to be great or least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Why would we choose to be least? (Matthew 5:17-19)

Shalom
Dr. Michael L. Brown
February 21st, 2010 @ 5:25 pm

Bo,

If you’d like to pursue my thinking on Torah today more fully, please read the relevant sections in vol. 4 of my series on Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus.

For the moment, would you be kind enough to let me know how you personally practice laws like Deut 25:5-11, as one example among many, today?

Shalom!
Bo
February 21st, 2010 @ 6:11 pm

Dr. Brown,

I guess you either marry her or let her spit in your face.

This command may seem a bit wild to our ungodly culture but I think you would agree that some of our laws and customs are detestable to YHWH.

His ways are higher than ours. His thoughts are higher also.

It doesn’t seem good to me to stand in judgement of His righteous judgements. (I’d rather be a doer of the law instead of a judge of the law.) We could try it His way for a change and see what happens.

This situation couldn’t come up very often, but if it did happen to come up, the hardest thing to accomplish would be to find elders that would obey YHWH.

I guess you could say that the reason for this law was for inheritance in the land of Israel and that it wouldn’t accomplish the intent if we did it in America. But there may be more to it than we can see.

Seems like we could find a mystery about Messiah and His Bride in this, as Paul did in Ephesians. It could give us some insight, don’t you think?

Can I read your vol. 4 online somewhere?

Shalom
Bo
February 21st, 2010 @ 6:18 pm

I thought about saying, “The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?”;)

I hope you would not try to trap me or discredit me to the readers.

Shalom
Jabez H.
February 21st, 2010 @ 9:30 pm

So, whatever is so derived that is done in reverence for the Lord, does that apply> or do we always go with Gentile believers freedom from such? How one organizes themselves for worship and its observation can indeed link up with a heart devoted to the Lord. Holding to a Biblical reference for such outward practice is not ungodly, is it? Can it be like tieing a string around one’s finger, with practices done in remembrance of our Father and his Son (where so much else is irreverant and relative in this world)?
Dr Michael L Brown
February 21st, 2010 @ 10:53 pm

Bo,

Thanks for your reply.

Sorry, but vol. 4 is not available online, but it is worth acquiring.

So, then, you would practice polygamy if possible by American law? You would also stone rebellious and disobedient teenagers, burn witches, and put to death Sabbath breakers if possible by law today? (There were other laws I cited in Deut 25, just FYI, aside from the levirate marriage law and the ones mentioned here, not cited in my first reference.)

And do you make nothing of Paul’s clear statement in Galatians 3:24-25 that “the law had become our guardian until Messiah, so that we could be declared righteous by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian”?

Or the statement in Hebrews 8:13 that, “When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.”

There is much more to say here, but time does not permit.

What you are missing, I believe, is how Yeshua already brought aspects of the Sinai covenant to fulfillment; moreover, He was not only speaking of bringing to fulfillment just the Torah but the Torah and Prophets, meaning that the entire Tanakh was pointing to Him.
Ben
February 22nd, 2010 @ 5:56 am

BLIND FROM BIRTH?????

This i gotta see (no pun intended).
Ewan
February 22nd, 2010 @ 6:00 am

Dr. Brown, I recall hearing on one of your LoF shows mention of the division of the Law into the three categories of moral, civil, and ceremonial. I think you also mentioned how we can tell which category which laws should be in. Anyway, I can’t remember which show it was now. Can you tell me which show it was or direct me to a source that answers this question? Thanks.
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 5:36 pm

Dr. Brown,

I do not think I am missing the fact that Messiah fulfilled many things written in the Law and the Prophets. The way you phrased it, it sounds like he ended those things, not that he walked them perfectly. Some things prophesied about Him he accomplished never to do again; some things He will do at His second coming; some things were not for He alone to accomplish.

Just because He fulfilled the law, “Thou shalt not murder” does not mean that we can murder now. The same can be said for Shabbat (Sabbath) and the other Moedim (YHWH”s appointments with us). It is a bit absurd to think that He fulfilled the commandments that were only for women and the Levitical priesthood also.

Y’shua did not come to destroy the Law.(Mt.5:17) If Him fulfilling the Law perfectly makes it of none effect, then He destroyed it. I think He obeyed perfectly and was thus a valid sacrifice for our sins. No sacrifice for sin eliminates the requirement for us to stop sinning. Sin sacrifices should cause the offender to take the seriousness of the matter to heart and bring him to repentance.

That He is the sacrifice for sin that the Levitical sacrifices pointed to there is no doubt. Those sacrifices, and the whole tabernacle service and priesthood are only pictures of the real thing that is in heaven. This brings us to Heb.8:13 and the surrounding verses.

Shalom
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 5:37 pm

Dr. Brown,

Concerning Hebrews 8:13

The greater context in Hebrews chapters 7-10 is about the Levitical priesthood being a shadow of the Messianic Priesthood. There is a change in the law if there is a new priesthood. That change is in the sacrifices: how they are offered, by whom they are offered, and where they are offered. There is a change in when they are offered also. Once! Because once this sacrifice is offered and applied, it changes the sinner’s heart. He no longer wants to sin. He no longer has to sin. He is a new creature. Old things have passed away, all things have become new.(2Co.5:17) But YHWH’s law does not change.(Ps.119:160; 1Pe. 1:22-25) Sin is still sin. Transgression of that law is still sin.(1Jo. 3:2-6) But the believer now loves YHWH’s word. He desires to obey the rules of the kingdom. This is what the law being written on our hearts means.

The place where the law resides has changed from the ark of the covenant to the believer’s heart. The ark is a type and shadow of the person’s heart. So, the whole conversation in Hebrews is about the how the physical aspects of the Levitical things represent the spiritual aspects of the Messianic things. And at the end of this discussion it is stated in chapter 10:

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Sin still has the same definition, but it is worse for us to sin now that we have been empowered not to sin.

Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? It doesn’t work that way does it?

Shalom
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 5:38 pm

Dr. Brown,

Concerning Polygamy and such:

America practices an abominable form of polygamy. Divorce and remarriage. It is adultery according to Messiah. It will keep many out of the kingdom. I do not think that the polygamy practiced in the scripture was YHWH’s idea. He did prescribe certain laws regulating it so as to make it more palatable, though. Polygamy does not accurately represent the mystery of Messiah and His Bride. He has only one bride…Israel…New Jerusalem.

You use somewhat of a red herring when you bring up killing rebellious teenagers, witches and Sabbath breakers. You know well that there has to be a duly authorized judicial system and at least two witnesses that are willing to cast the first stone. You know that the Body of Messiah’s members are ambassadors to this world. They have no authority to administer the death penalty. They do have authority to excommunicate unrepentant teenagers, witches, and Sabbath breakers so as to not cause the whole lump to be leavened, though.(1Co.5) We find ourselves in captivity in a strange land. The kingdom has not been restored to Israel as of yet.(Ac. 1:6-7)

The real issues about keeping Torah have been skirted in this discussion. Is there one law for the stranger and the home born or is it just for the Jews?(Nu. 15:29: De. 31:12) Is transgression of the law still sin?(1Jo.3:4-10; Ja.2:8-10) Is YHWH’s law really written on our hearts if we are looking for ways to get out of doing it?(Ro. 2:13-15; 8:6-9; 1Co. 2:14; He. 3:7-4:1)

YHWH’s law is perfect.(Ps.19) Do you really want to add to or take away from it?

YHWH didn’t desire rebellious teenagers and polygamists. His regulations in these matters show us His heart. He wants children brought up to love and obey Him and women to be cared for, not treated like property that can be bought and sold. YHWH did not desire sacrifices for sin, but he made laws regulating how it was to be done so that His carnally minded people would have a covering until they were brought to Messiah. I guess that brings us to Gal.3.

Shalom
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 5:39 pm

Dr. Brown,

Concerning Galatians 3:

We know that no one becomes righteous by attempting to keep the Torah. It is too late; we have already transgressed. We know that animal sacrifices only place a temporary covering on the matter. The only way to be made perfect is by Y’shua’s sacrifice.

The Galatians were either trusting in their own ability to preform the Torah perfectly, or they were trusting the animal sacrifices to cover their sins, or both. Hebrews covers this topic at some length. We also know that the original hearers of the gospel(He. 3:18-4:2) did not mix it with faith and were given a Levitical priesthood instead of accepting the offer from YHWH to be His priests.(Ex.19:3-8,20:18-20; De. 10:1-10) Scripture says that we have no need that anyone teach us(1Jo. 2:27) and there should be no need for every one to tell his neighbor to know YHWH(Je.31:34: He. 6:3) when we enter the new covenant. YHWH’s law does not change, but the offer of priesthood is restored to all who will agree to listen to and obey Him.

What is the schoolmaster(guardian) that was set in place to keep us until Messiah? Is it not the Levitical system of covering sin and teaching the people what YHWH’s rules were? This seems to be the point of Hebrews 7-10. When Jeremiah and Ezekiel spoke of YHWH’s law being in our hearts instead of on stone, there was no thought of it being something different from the Law that they upheld. If we love His law, we will want to know what it says and want to do it. This is what having it written on our hearts means. The motivation comes from within our new spirit instead of from a list written on stone or from a temporary priesthood tutoring us. The temporary priesthood is no longer necessary, but YHWH’s truth has not changed.

I fear that many today are still seeking to approach YHWH through a priesthood instead of directly as His royal priesthood. The Galatians were evidently doing the same.

To take Galatians 3 to mean that YHWH’s law is no longer important or useful, is to go against the vast preponderance of scripture. Even the other things that Paul wrote easily prove this. For instance:

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture (only the law and the prophets at that time) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Peter warned that many unstable souls would twist Paul’s writings to their own destruction so that they would be led away with the error of the wicked(one who breaks through the restraint of law). (2 Pe. 3:15-17) Messiah also warned of Torahlessness increasing and causing our love to grow cold. But he that endures till the end will be saved. (Mt. 24:11-12)

Dr. Brown, your position seems to twist Paul’s writings. It is the false witnesses who claimed that the early assembly taught that Y’shua would change YHWH’s law.(Ac. 6:13-14)

Shalom
Dr Michael L Brown
February 22nd, 2010 @ 7:00 pm

Bo,

Thanks for your comments. Obviously, I strongly disagree with your perspective that I am in any way twisting Paul’s writings but, given the context of you warning me here, I would urge you to take caution to your own soul.

What is clear immediately to me, however, that you are also misunderstanding me (and misrepresenting me in your posts). So, study what I’ve written carefully on these matters — since I have given it much thought and study over the decades — and then feel free to post again. Until then, I’m afraid, you’ll be missing my point, not to mention the point of many other verses as well.

You are also free to call in to my show whenever a relevant topic comes up or on a Friday when I get into more wide-ranging topics.

I will simply state one point clearly: When you tell Jewish and Gentile believers that they are obligated to keep the statues of the Torah given to Moses, you do not speak the truth according to the Scriptures.
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 8:09 pm

Dr. Brown,

I realized that you would strongly diagree that you are possibly twisting Paul’s writings. Everybody does, including me. How does YHWH’s word stand forever if we are not obligated to do what He has stated? Why is murder still a sin and Sabbath breaking not a sin. They are in the same set of 10?

Please direct me to the places that you have explained yourself so that I can understand your stance. If I must spend lots of money to obtain your books then I will not be able to do this study.

I do take great caution to understand what scripture teaches and have spent about 3 decades in much thought on these matters also.

If you are asking me to not post any more, please make it clear. I was only answering your questions. You must find it not worth your time to respond to the points I have brought up. I know your time is limited. I have spent much time in this that seems to be passed over as so much drivel. I guess I should have only answered, “The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?”

Shalom
Dr Michael L Brown
February 22nd, 2010 @ 9:18 pm

Bo,

There are scores of discussions going on here at any given time, and unless I devote a whole show to a major subject and have not written on it elsewhere, it’s rare for me to get involved in the forum here, which exists primarily for others to air their views.

On this particular show, I took one question on MJ issues, so I’m not planning to devote much time to it on the forum in this thread. You’re free to post whatever you like, but just understand that it’s unlikely I’ll be responding at this point. Also, I differ so profoundly with your approach to the Word that it would take too long to work through in this setting, even if I had a bit more time.

As I suggested earlier, start by reading through the relevant sections of vol. 4 of my series.

Also, I did not claim that you hadn’t given thought to these issues, but I was not the one to bring up the charge of twisting the Scriptures — a very serious charge that was quite unfortunate to read, especially coming from someone like you who is throwing out what many fine servants of the Lord have understood Paul to say after a lifetime of study on the subject.
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 9:55 pm

Dr. Brown,

I understand your time constraints. I just answered your questions. As far as your statement in your previous post:

“I will simply state one point clearly: When you tell Jewish
and Gentile believers that they are obligated to keep the
statues of the Torah given to Moses, you do not speak the
truth according to the Scriptures.”

So here are just a select few of many scriptures that just might back up my thoughts (keeping the Torah looms pretty huge in being obedient sons):

De. 13
1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Ps.19
7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

Is. 8
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 ¶ Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mal. 2
1 ¶ And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
7 For the priest’s lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

Mt. 5
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mt. 22
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mt. 23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jo. 15
9 ¶ As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Ro. 7
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 ¶ For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

1 Co. 7
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

1 Pe. 2
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

2 Pe. 2
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1Jo. 2
3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 Jo. 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 Jo. 5
1 ¶ Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo. 1
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 ¶ For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 ¶ If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Re. 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Re. 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Ruth Smith
February 22nd, 2010 @ 10:15 pm

My experience as a Gentile is that some pastors really chafe at the idea of Sabbath keeping, as if it is a burden. Now we know from Yeshua’s response that the religious leaders of His day had made the Sabbath burdensome with a lot of ritual observance, and that He cleared off all of what was extra, man-made embellishments, and helped us to see that it is the spirit in which we keep it that matters, and that it was meant to be a day of rest, but also of delight in the LORD, as originally shown in Exodus, where it is first written about.

So what I wonder is, why do pastors today act as if the Sabbath (on the seventh day) is some kind of burden?? The Sabbath, or Shabbos, is a day of pure delight! We worship, we focus on our Father in Heaven, we rejoice in the Good News, and we rest from the world with all its endless cares and concerns. It is a wonderful day! Yet pastors hammer away at the Sabbath as if the Ten Commandments are somehow obsolete for Gentiles. Possibly this stems from a long history of dissociating with the Jews. Like eating ham on Easter was an in-your-face way of saying, “We’re Gentiles, we don’t have to observe your laws.”

When in Matthew 19:16-19, the rich man asked Jesus (aka Yeshua) which commandments he was supposed to keep, Jesus began to list them off, “Don’t murder, don’t commit adultery…” In doing this, though He didn’t go through all ten, it was simply understood by his hearer that he was referring to the law that was given to Moses on Mt. Sinai, which we commonly call the Ten Commandments today. So it’s obvious from this passage that Yeshua meant that these are all still in effect. It’s still wrong to worship an image we’ve made with our hands, to have “other gods” before YHWH, even though Jesus didn’t specifically mention those, but He alluded to ALL of them when he began to list them off. His hearer would have made the connection instantly when He began listing them off. So He made his yoke (or law) easy and his “burden” light, but He didn’t say there is NO yoke!

And He condensed all the commandments into two basic ideas: Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Because if you’re doing that, you’ll want to follow the commandments of God to the best of your ability. If you love God, you’ll want to know Him and what He requires. And if you love your neighbor as yourself, you won’t covet what belongs to him, you won’t chase his wife, you won’t steal from him and murder him. So that’s the essence of it; obedience because of LOVE for God.

But as a Gentile, I have to be frank about our “Christianity.” We have deeply needed the Messianic Jews! Thank God I can live in this Messianic Age when I can see Jews turning to Yeshua, their Messiah (and the Messiah of the whole world). There has been a gaping hole in our religion without the Jews. God in His wisdom saw how we could be saved — because of their unbelief — but He also saw how they would be regrafted in, and when they came to faith in the Messiah of all Israel (and the whole world), they would bring something which has been missing: An understanding of the law. Because many of our pastors, oftentimes in their zeal, went too far in the other direction, and were throwing out the baby with the bathwater!

The Ten Commandments are still intact. I can’t speak for a lot of the other ones (as I don’t know), but I am positive the Ten (including the Sabbath!) are still part of Yeshua’s “yoke.”
Dr Michael L Brown
February 22nd, 2010 @ 10:19 pm

Bo,

I do hope when you study the material I have written on this that you will gain insight. Yeshua has accomplished far more than you appear to realize. I also hope that you will come to understand what the essence of the “commandments” refers to in the NT.

Romans 7:1-6

7:1 Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is lord over a person as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of the marriage. 3 So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she is joined to another man, she is not an adulteress. 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

Romans 13:9-10

13:9 For the commandments, “Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not covet,” (and if there is any other commandment) are summed up in this, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

John 15:9-14

15:9 Just as the Father has loved me, I have also loved you; remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. 11 I have told you these things so that my joy may be in you, and your joy may be complete. 12 My commandment is this– to love one another just as I have loved you. 13 No one has greater love than this– that one lays down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 10:33 pm

Dr. Brown,

You quote John 15
10 If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

I wish to remain in the Father’s love by keeping His commandments too.

The Father and son are one and their commandments are the same.
Dr Michael L Brown
February 22nd, 2010 @ 10:40 pm

Bless you, Bo!
Bo
February 22nd, 2010 @ 11:03 pm

Thanks Dr. Brown,

If we begin reading in Romans 6 for a little context we might get a bit more insight.

Then we see the parallel is that being bound to our old husband was being under sin not the Torah. We have died to sin and should not obey that old husband. We have a new husband that calls us to righteousness. Our old husband (sin) that we used to obey is not to rule us any more.

6:18 Being then made free from sin(not Torah), ye became the servants of righteousness.
7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law(of sin not the law of YHWH) by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust…

See what I mean?
Ruth Smith
February 22nd, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

The world at large scoffs at the laws of God. Fornication is rampant. Disrespect, dishonoring of parents is far too common. Paganism has returned in full force, with people worshipping the earth (magnificent creation though it is) as a goddess, among other “deities.” Gender roles have become more and more blurry.

Love today is seen as a standard-less tolerance, when sometimes Love really takes the role of correction. Thank God for His laws! Yes, observance is not enough, we must have the Lord of Life within our very hearts. But let us not disparage the laws of God.

I went through the experience in my younger days of thinking my parent’s Biblically-based views were all old-fashioned and unimportant. I learned the hard way through much, much sorrow that God’s laws were actually for my benefit!

But it wasn’t until I experienced forgiveness of past sins (breaking the laws of God) through Christ’s atoning blood that I became free from the past and could find true life as, yes, a “new creature!”

So let us continue to uphold God’s laws, for His ways are just and perfect!
Ruth Smith
February 23rd, 2010 @ 10:29 am

I’ve got to add that I really believe that Paul wasn’t arguing for lawlessness, anyway (God forbid!) but rather for the Holy Spirit, through faith in Yeshua, our Redeemer, because without His Spirit helping us, we wouldn’t even be able to truly keep the law. We could try, without the Spirit of the Lord, to fulfill (or perform) the law, but we would be doing it somewhat mechanically, certainly not perfectly, because His Spirit gives us the wherewithal to truly love one another and to truly love God, fulfilling the most important aspect of the law itself!

I experienced this personally myself this morning. I caretake my Dad, who has Alzheimer’s. Without the Lord’s Spirit helping me day to day, I wouldn’t be able to honor my parent; I’d be full of anger and frustration, because this is a difficult position to be in. The Lord gives me a different viewpoint, helps me transcend the moment, and most importantly, gives me the love so vital to this job…

His Spirit makes all the difference! So we keep the law in spirit and deed, but with an entirely different frame of mind and heart…
Ruth Smith
February 23rd, 2010 @ 10:33 am

Praise God who keeps us…and leads us into greener pastures…
Dr. Michael L. Brown
February 23rd, 2010 @ 10:57 am

Bo,

As I have stated a few times already, I don’t have time to respond to your arguments here. I simply quoted a few verses to give balance to the verses you quoted — and they are quoted based only on the surrounding context.

So, I repeat once more: Feel free to post all you want, but please don’t address me in posts as if you expect a response. Fair enough?

Ruth,

Yes, Rom 8:1-4 says this very thing: the righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us who do not walk in the flesh but the Spirit. This is a core truth to the constant holiness emphasis we have at FIRE.
Bo
February 23rd, 2010 @ 12:35 pm

Thanks Dr. Brown,

I do not expect you to answer every time I post. Thaks for the time you have spent so far. I appreciate your ministies and will be looking for used copy of your vol. 4.

Romans 8 with my comentary in (….)
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(There either is condemnation to those in Messiah that walk after the flesh or those that walk after the flesh are not in Messiah.)

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
(We are free from the eternal death penalty for not obeying Torah. This does not mean that we can disobey YHWH’s rules and still be blameless.)

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
(The Torah can’t save us, it only tells us what the correct behavior is. We need a saviour because we have broken Torah.)

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(If we truly walk after the Spirit we will keep (fulfill) what Torah says. This verse does not say that walking after the Spirit is a substitute for fulfilling Torah.)

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
(The carnal mind fights YHWH. It is not subject to Torah. It comes up with excuses not to obey. The person that is spiritually minded agrees with YHWH’s rules. The person who won’t keep Torah is not righteous. 1 John 3 says it well:
4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.)

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
(It is pleasing to YHWH for us to do what Torah says. This is part of walking in righteousness.)

Shalom
Jabez H.
February 24th, 2010 @ 12:01 am

When “a constant holiness emphasis” is mentioned in this blog, what does that look like in daily life?

Does not John 13:36 thorugh the beginning of John 16 seem to grant new commandments revealed by Jesus directly related to the New Covenant and the sending of the Spirit to all believers? Does not this orient itself as a new relationship day by day with the personal Father, as is not emphasized as being commandments as such in the Tenach? Is this what Jesus meant by keeping His commandments (not then the Ten or the Torah, as such?)?

So, I am wondering, Bo, if you have read and contemplated the depth, and height of what Jesus is saying in this passage, as differing and descriptively so of the Covenant indicators mentioned as newly given of Jesus in the letter to the Hebrews?
Bo
February 25th, 2010 @ 7:42 pm

Dr. Brown,

I picked up a copy of Vol. 4 yesterday.

Do you have any specific sections you would like me to read?

Bo
Dr Michael L Brown
February 25th, 2010 @ 8:24 pm

Bo,

I would suggest 5.24, 5.28-5.34.

Blessings,

Dr. Brown
Bo
February 27th, 2010 @ 9:22 pm

Dr. Brown,

I read em. Will you please read the link I posted on the Sabbath discussion forum?

Shalom
Dr Michael L Brown
February 27th, 2010 @ 10:41 pm

Bo,

As I’ve stated repeatedly, I don’t have time to get into an extensive discussion on these issues at this point, and I see extreme danger in the position you seem to be espousing.

If time permits to focus on this in the future when I devote some shows to the subject, I’ll try to interact at that time.

Shalom.
Bo
February 27th, 2010 @ 10:45 pm

Dr. Brown,

I spent quite a bit of time on your book, not to mention $20. The article I posted the link for is right up your ally. Here is the link.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/jones-pericope.html

Shalom
Bo
February 27th, 2010 @ 10:49 pm

Dr. Brown,

And what is so dangerous about living by evey word of YHWH?

I accept Y’shua’s atoning death and have been baptized in YHWH’s spirit. And I simply say that a redeemed person wants to be obedient to the scripture. John and Paul said the same.

Shalom
Dr Michael L Brown
February 28th, 2010 @ 12:26 am

Bo,

The danger is that you can’t see the danger.
Ben KC
February 28th, 2010 @ 12:56 am

Bo,

Do you understand Rom 7:6 ?

6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.
Erika
February 28th, 2010 @ 6:47 am

Here my short comment on Romans 7:6

In Romans 7:12 we read: “Therefore the law indeed is holy, and the commandment holy, and righteous, and good.”

In Romans 8:2 we read: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua made me free from the law of sin and of death.”

In Jeremiah 31:33 we read: “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people”.

So Yeshua freed us from the law of sin and death and put His holy, righteous and good law in our hearts (hopefully). Then the “the old written code” of the good law (see Psalm 119) comes alive in our hearts through His Spirit.

Or how else would you explain Matthew 5:18

“For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the Torah, until all things are accomplished.”
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 12:00 pm

Ben,

Yes.

Do you know what this means?

Rom. 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do you understand that YHWH set up our world such that His word is not changeable? Do you understand that when He blessed the Sabbath and sanctfied it that He can’t undo it? At least, not until heaven and earth pass away. Just like Isaac could not undo the blessing that he placed upon Jacob instead of Esau. Do you understand that Gentiles that accept Messiah are no longer gentiles? They get grafted into Israel. They receive the covenants of Israel. The New covenant is with Israel not gentiles.

Certainly our relationship to the law changes. It is in us instead of outside of us. The law does not change, the place it is written does. The Spirit is there to lead us into all truth. Y’shua said “Santify them by thy truth, thy word is truth.” We are not santified unless we obey the truth. Do not be deceived, “He that doeth righteousness is righteous.” Hearers of the word deceive themselves unless they do it. Heares only build their housae on the sand.

To not do the will of the Father comes with serious consequences. In Matthew 7 Y’shua said, “Depart from me you workers of Torahlessness.”

Shalom
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 12:21 pm

Dr. Brown,

Thanks for the “nice” trite answer.

I read over 100 pages of your book. The sections you asked me to read. You do a wonderful job of making the invitation to Jewish people to come to Messiah. You leave broad understandings of the scripture open to show that the Messiah is for them.

I wonder why when I relate the same ideas as you quote from many others in your book that you oppose them coming from me. You really never make any solid statements in the book, that I can tell, except maybe that the talmud says the law will change. You seem like you are riding the fence so as to not offend either Chrisianity or Judiasm. This is one thing that Messiah did not do.

You write well. You are well studied. You are smart. But you seem to have a manpleasing attitude in your book. I had someone else read the sections you recomended. They honestly could not see what you were getting at. Except that you were leaving open the widest interpretation so as to answer the Jewish objections.

May your ministy prosper in bringing many Jewish people to Messiah.

I am sorry for offending you in previous posts. How about a brotherly discussion instead of just saying “you are wrong” all the time?

Shalom
Ben KC
February 28th, 2010 @ 2:26 pm

Bo, explain Rom 7:6.
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 2:30 pm

Ben,

Give me a little time as I have some things around here I must attend to.

Shalom
Dr. Michael L. Brown
February 28th, 2010 @ 3:48 pm

Bo,

I’ll close out this thread here with reference to my previous comments on the Feb. 24 thread.

As for me having a “man-pleasing” attitude in my apologetics books — ha! I get accused of lots of things, but not that.

It looks like you not only read the Scriptures differently than I do, you also read my own books differently than I wrote them!
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 4:23 pm

It is my honest evaluation. Kind of wishy-washy. Never really stating a clear conclusion. Somewhat ambiguous. It was very difficult to understand what the point you were getting at was, except to show that there are may different interpretations that are possible. This might be fine for tying to bring someone into the kingdom “nice and easy” but it doesn’t do much in helping me know where you stand.

Shalom
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 6:03 pm

Ben,

Dr. Michael Brown, in his book “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Volume 4” on page 257-258 quotes “The Jewish New Testament” and argues that these interpretations are plausible. He also indicates that Romans 7:1-4 means that we were once married to our sinful nature and now are joined to Messiah instead, and that this enables us to keep His commandments in “newness of the Spirit.” With this I agree.

The JNT reads as follows:

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from this aspect of Torah, because we have died to that which had us in its clutches, so that we are serving in the new way provided by the Spirit and not in the old way of outwardly following the letter of the law.

Galatians 2:19
For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation so that I might live in a direct relationship with God.

Romans 6:13
For sin will not have authority over you; because you are not under legalism but under grace.

I would also point out that the “newness of the spirit” contrasted with the “oldness of the letter” is basically another way of saying that the Torah has been placed in our hearts now instead of being only written down. The Spirit leads us into all truth and reminds us of the things that YHWH has said.

Your translation reads:
6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code.

Sin is what used to control us. We have died to this master. If it was the law that controlled us we would have not been sinning. We don’t have to sin any longer. We can now, by the Spirit’s power, do the righteous commands of the law. We can fulfil the law if, and only if, we walk after the Spirit. If the old written code is the Torah it is righteous just and good not sin. Paul says this. It is the revelation of what is right to do. The old letter is not bad, as Paul explains, it is we who were bad. If we are to “go and sin no more” we must not break the law. John says that sin is the transgression of the law. James says that to him that knows to do good and does it not it is sin. Paul says that the law / commandments are good. Paul also says that faith does not make the law of no effect.

Serving in the oldness of the letter is trying to be righteous before YHWH by keeping all the rules. Serving in the newness of the Spirit includes keeping the rules because we love Him and desire to please Him. Those in the flesh cannot please Him because they are not subject to the law of YHWH.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Shalom
Bo
February 28th, 2010 @ 11:56 pm

Ben,

Does that sound reasonable enough to you?

Shalom
Bo
March 1st, 2010 @ 3:33 pm

What if I was a dish washer in my fathers restaurant and washed the dishes correctly every day and my motive for doing so was to be sure and get a pay check and/or not look bad to the other workers?

On the other hand, What if my father decided to pay me in advance and I was grateful and continued to wash the dishes correctly? What if I wanted to please my father and make sure that no one would find one spot on those dishes so as to not tarnish my father’s reputation?

On the third hand, What if my father decided to pay me in advance and I didn’t do the dishes correctly or didn’t show up for work but, in my new found freedom, I called in every day to tell him that I loved him?

Which me was serving in the flesh?

Which me was serving in newness of the spirit?

Which me was deceived into thinking he was serving in the spirit but was still in the flesh?

Shalom
Judah Gabriel Himango
March 1st, 2010 @ 4:33 pm

Hey Michael. Enjoyed the podcast, even if I have some disagreements about your view of the Law and Messianics.

Shalom.
Jabez H.
March 2nd, 2010 @ 11:57 pm

So, Bo insists on the Torah and the Decalogue particulars, of which the former was really set up for a traveling and very environmentally and socially challenged culture. These tribal families of religious observance needed such a binding reality to permeate a society with needed government and conjoint respect of a related awe (otherwise lacking in the midst of wilderness and occasional others experienced there).

Later, when another generation crosses the Jordan, and the tribes inherit the promise of various areas of the Land ahead, it becomes apparent too that the government involved to keep these people together is enmeshed in the particulars, the obligations, and the resulting coservice and mutual protection in every way associated with their tight bonds of literal and ritual remembrance. As the evolution of Torah observance occurs, and David’s son builds the Temple, what is then retained, and set aside, and why? And when Yeshua comes to the well established religious and foreign dominated nation much later set in the Land, what bonds continue any healthy obligations set by the Torah? How does Yeshua change the very understanding of the basis of all mutual bonds and their true establishment as associated with the God of the Bible even more than the seasonal rhythms and ritual obligations?

How then is it possible to so observe Torah without the Temple sacrifical system, unless one repents in heart and accepts the total propitation and advocacies of the Royal Law ov liberty upheld of Yeshua? And, as given, once and for all time, as applying to all people of faith, everywhere?

Once the Temple was destroyed Judaism shifted its own center from the Temple and synagogue observant way, of mutual community Torah observance and by calendar organized reading for and of its seasonal rhythm observances of a placed people. This led to the Rabbinical oversight of this or that precept or interpretation for a scattered people. So, why would one who found faith through the teaching of Yeshua wish to change a new and living reality of acceptance in a resulting beloved fellowship for such a nonplaced as prescribed individually burdensome observance?

To embrace what Bo advocates is to ignore what Yeshua said as to the pride associated with those viewed during His visitation as supposedly observant of the Law: as to the woes and burdens placed on all others involved in finding first in focus an insistance upon being a nation of unshepherded sheep regulating one another by an associated cadre’s opinion. Yeshua said those pressing into His teaching and way were those in need of His shepherding, and associated with being lost sheep seeking and finding such a shepherd of the soul (addressed in John 13:32 through early chapter 16, and in Romans 12 through 14, for our advisement).

Was that not the concern of the critics of Yeshua in John 5, that He was, in fact, emphasizing a quite different relationship and more complete view of access to the Father through hearfelt awe of Him than by such ongoing interpretations of every action and utterance which those who held the Torah controlled? What is Bo advocating really, and how does it mitigate against the simplicity of a childlike heart Yeshua said was needful to receive Him?
Bo
March 3rd, 2010 @ 12:50 pm

Jabez H,

Ah…so we meet again, my friend. And once again the “atomic bomb” passage of “John 13:32 through early chapter 16″ is dropped to supposedly annihilate all other scripture so that we can live in the lawless utopia of every man doing what is right in his own eyes.

A true “childlike heart” embraces the truth easily and submits to YHWH’s authority. A childish faith will continue to insist on having things its own way and not want to take on the responsibility of learning what is right and doing it. When I become a man I should put away childish things.

1 Cor. 14:20
20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Have you never read:

Rev. 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

If He were to rule with a rod of iron and it not be by established law it must needs be by arbitrary and capricious whims, or worse.

Isa. 26:23-24
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh

We will fall into one of two groups; maybe we already do. Those that are transgressors and those that worship Him as He commanded.

Zec. 14:16-17
16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

During this “rod of iron” reign the “ seasonal rhythm observances”, as you put it, will still be part of what constitutes worshiping in spirit and truth. (Worshiping Him has never been in spirit only. The truth is important to the One who is the Truth. The times that He set apart to meet with us are truth.)

Eze. 41:21
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.

This is a statute for the coming kingdom also. Lets see, we have indication that new moons, Sabbath, and the feast of tabernacles, and Passover are statutes for us in the future kingdom, I wonder is there anything else that seems to remain in effect?

Isa. 66:15-17
15 ¶ For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

“All flesh” will be judged, at least in part, for eating unclean.

We could go further, but I think this is enough to get the point.

(cont.)

Shalom
Bo
March 3rd, 2010 @ 12:51 pm

Jabez H,

I would like to put forth an axiom:

If YHWH commanded these things before the crucifixion and commands them after the Messiah’s return then they are also for us now.

There is no clear indication of instruments in the New Testament era, but we would say the same for musical instruments in worship. They were good before, they are going to be good in the future, they must be good now.

Col. 2:16-22
16 ¶ Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

If we go by the commandments of men we will not be doing these things. If we uphold the law by walking in the Spirit we will be doing these things. We can either be beguiled into following ministers (angels) that are puffed up and fleshly that neglect these statutes or we can simply obey out of a purified heart. We can follow the commandments of men that say we do not have to (or even should not) do these scriptural observances or we can enter in to the things that YHWH has always had for us. Not spirit only but truth.

This list in Colossians is the same list that is in the Tanakh. If this passage is saying do not do these things it is against every other passage on the subject. If it saying to continue to do these things then it is about time to enter in with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength. If our faith is only about learning some spiritual truth and holding this knowledge only in our minds we are gnostics.

Being hearers of the law without putting it into practice is deceiving many. This lawlessness is causing true love (commitment not some nice feeling) to grow cold. We will betraying each other next.

Isa. 8:20
20 To the law (TORAH) and to the testimony(10 COMMANDMENTS): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Shalom
Jabez H.
April 13th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

Bo, Sadly, you have not contextualized who the law was given to, and the promises, conditions, and covenant(s) made. Torah, to whom was it given (Yeshua cited the Ten Commandments as needful, save one)? In the John passage cited on the New Covenant blessing and guidance of the Holy Spirit, the New and Living Way becomes the lifestyle and purpose for the follower of Yeshua, as given by his blood. “The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself in love,” stated Paul, and for the central reason of Christ in Us, the Hope of Glory. Why send the Apostles to the Nations, why the Jerusalem Church conference, why does James uphold the Royal Law above the Torah when writing to the tribes scattered abroad? Why do Yeshua’s messengers tell the chosen Apostles from the nation in Acts 1 a timely setting aside of agendas for those of the present Kingdom, and its witness of Him?

He is your offense, not “trite” answers given Michael Brown through scripture, the Spirit, and life experience with Christ in him.
Dangerous Bo
April 23rd, 2010 @ 1:39 pm

Jabez H.

Check out these passages on breaking YHWH’s law (Lawlessness)

Hebrews 1
8 and unto the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is to the age of the age; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy reign;
9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee—God, thy God—with oil of gladness above thy partners;’

Matthew 7
15 ¶ ‘But, take heed of the false prophets, who come unto you in sheep’s clothing, and inwardly are ravening wolves.
16 From their fruits ye shall know them; do men gather from thorns grapes? or from thistles figs?
17 so every good tree doth yield good fruits, but the bad tree doth yield evil fruits.
18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.
19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast to fire:
20 therefore from their fruits ye shall know them.
21 ¶ ‘Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, lord, have we not in thy name prophesied? and in thy name cast out demons? and in thy name done many mighty things?
23 and then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from me ye who are working lawlessness.

Matthew 24
11 ‘And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray;
12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold;
13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved;

Titus 2
11 ¶ For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and the worldly desires, soberly and righteously and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works;
15 ¶ these things be speaking, and exhorting, and convicting, with all charge; let no one despise thee!

Ro 6:19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness—to the lawlessness, so now present your members servants to the righteousness—to sanctification,

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will commission His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all causes of sin and all who violate His laws;
42 and these they will throw into the fiery furnace. There will be the weeping aloud and the gnashing of teeth.
43 Then will the righteous shine out like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Listen, every one who has ears!

Contextualize it all away if you want.

Shalom
Bo
November 17th, 2010 @ 12:41 pm

Tom,

Please tell me about head coverings and how long women have been wearing them and not wearing them.

Shlaom
Bo
November 17th, 2010 @ 12:41 pm

Shalom actually.
Tom
November 17th, 2010 @ 12:46 pm

Ok, not what I meant. Head coverings are so far out of my realm of concern you might as well be waving from the moon. Sorry, but I’m not getting into a conversation about head coverings.

To be fair, though, if you would like to provide some information (say, some history from a reputable source – direct me to a website or something) I would be happy to read it for my enlightenment.
Tom
November 17th, 2010 @ 12:49 pm

Please do, actually. I am interested in what there is to know about this.

(and I say that without admitting that it in any way compares to the question on the diety of Christ)
Bo
November 17th, 2010 @ 1:08 pm

Tom,

I will see what I can find in the next day or two. I have not really read about this on the net, so it might take me a while. I will also try to post a little word study on the words Paul used in the passage for your reading enjoyment.

True it doesn’t compare to the nature of Messiah, but since Paul is dealing with the authority of Messiah and those under Him, it is relevant as to His headship.

Shalom
Tom
November 17th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm

‘Preciate it!

In passing, is head covering found in the OT? I’ve tried to find it, but I’m coming up short. Can you help me out?

Thanks again!
Tom
Bo
November 17th, 2010 @ 7:46 pm

Tom,

You will not find a doctrinal statement in the OT. What you do find is a woman’s head being uncovered because of being accused of adultery. Her head needed to be uncovered in order to stand before YHWH, out from under her husbands covering and thus could have judgment fall directly on her if appropriate. This headship is also discussed in the section on a wife or daughter in her father’s house being covered under the authority of the man. He can annul their vows, whereas a man’s vows cannot be annulled. The weaker vessel is supposed to be in a protected position under the covering of the man. Not men in general covering or over women in general, but the man covering his wife or daughter.

Numbers 5
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man’s wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman’s head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman’s hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

Numbers 30
1 And Moses spake unto the heads of the tribes concerning the children of Israel, saying, This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded.
2 If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father’s house in her youth;
4 And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.
5 But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.
6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
10 And if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the LORD shall forgive her.
13 Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.
14 But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day; then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard them.
15 But if he shall any ways make them void after that he hath heard them; then he shall bear her iniquity.
16 These are the statutes, which the LORD commanded Moses, between a man and his wife, between the father and his daughter, being yet in her youth in her father’s house.

This is another passage off the top of my head about a covering being removed.

Isaiah 47
1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.
2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.
3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

This is all I can think of at this moment.

Shalom
Tom
November 17th, 2010 @ 7:49 pm

Right on! Thanks very much for the help!

Take care, and no rush getting that information to me, just whenever you get the time.

Take care,
Tom
Bo
November 18th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm

Tom,

Here is one that does a pretty good job at touching all the major ideas and scriptures.

http://fernshomestead.com/headcovering2.html

I’ll try to do more later.

Shalom
Tom
November 18th, 2010 @ 3:15 pm

Great, thanks Bo!
Bo
December 1st, 2010 @ 12:32 pm

Tom,

What did you think of the article?

Shalom
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 12:55 am

Sheila wrote:
“I think the following paragraphs summarized it pretty well and I understand better the customs that were prevelant in Paul’s day. I combined the ones I thought spoke plainly to the subject. I would have to say our liberty in Christ extends to a woman’s hair style and to not having her hair covered if she chooses not to.

“If a Jewish woman who was a believer wanted to take a Nazarite vow, she was allowed to do so and at the end of the vow she would have to shave off her hair. In that culture this may have caused her shame to appear in the congregation with no hair and no veil, because of the connection a shaved head had with an unfaithful wife.
Paul gives her permission to veil herself, if it is a shame for her to appear with a shaved head. “For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off. But, if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off, or her head shaved, LET her cover her head.” 1 Corinthians 11:6
If the woman had the freedom to appear in the worship service without her head covering, Paul says she is also free from the custom of long hair.
Paul uses the words of permission “Let her.” He says, “Let her wear the veil or let her have her hair cut.” The inspired word is one of permission, not of restriction. Paul is not telling the Corinthians that a woman must cover her head. He could not do that – after all, he had just told them that the covering of the head shamed Christ. Wearing the head covering that symbolizes shame for sin is not a Christian custom – but, on the other hand, Paul could not tell women that they must uncover their head. That would violate the sanctity of many of their marriages. Jewish women presented a different dilemma in the congregation because of the custom of that day.
It would be wonderful if all women could follow men into the full uncovering of their heads and honour Christ, but many couldn’t — and Paul respects women and the customs of that day that stopped them from having full freedom of an unveiled head in Christ.
Today, for the most part we don’t have these cultural mandates that require women to have a head covering.
Let’s go on to the short summary that Paul gives for head coverings, starting in verse 7. “For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is in the image and glory of God, but the woman is the glory of man.”
The inspired word usage here is very revealing. Paul says that a male ought not to have his head covered; the Greek word means “to be under obligation to.”
What Paul is saying is that men do not have an obligation to have their head covered. There are no serious repercussions for a man to go without a head covering in the Christian community. And a man will not suffer loss by being divorced, if he does not cover his head. His only obligation is to Christ. A man who takes a Nazarite vow, and then shaves off his hair is not shamed by having a bald head. Paul says that there is no reason at all for a man to be under obligation to cover his head. Next, Paul introduces the fact that the man’s glory is his creation in the image of God. This was another reason to remove the veil. Paul brings out a very important fact that the woman is the glory of man. Note, that Paul does not say that the woman was made in the image of God or that she is the glory of God. His omission does not mean that the woman is not the image of God or that she is not the glory of God.
Paul reminds us in 2 Corinthians 3:18, “But we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
All humans are made in the image of God and all Christians display the glory of God. Male and female are in the image of God. Yet there are those who deny that the woman reflects the glory of God. Man has the glory of God and so does the woman. However, the woman is the only one to be created with two glories. She is the glory of God and the glory of man.”
Why does Paul put women first here? Because, he has just told us, that women have authority to make their own decisions. Yet, in the Lord, Paul says there is equality and interdependence.
What started out with the preeminence of the man, being the origin of the woman, moved to the importance of woman as the the origin of all men, but, ultimately all things have their beginning, their origin, in God, so all are equal in the Lord. Now Paul tells the Corinthians to make up their own mind from the example that he has just set.
“Judge for yourself, is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered?”
Paul is asking is it right, or proper, for a woman to pray to God without the veil that symbolizes her sin.
By this point in Paul’s argument, they should be able to judge that, yes, it is right for a woman to go unveiled before God because, she too, has her sins forgiven. Next, there is another judgment call.
“Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonour to him, but if a woman has long hair it is a glory to her. For her hair is given to her for a covering.”
The Greek was written without punctuation.
The International Standard Version gives the rendering without the question mark. “Nature itself teaches you neither that it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair, nor, that hair is a woman’s glory, for hair is given as a substitute for coverings.”
Now let’s think about Paul’s argument. Nature can teach you a lot of things but can it teach you that there is a standard for length of hair for a man and a different standard for a woman?
To understand Paul’s argument let’s consider our arm hair: What does nature teach us about our arm hair? We all have arm hair but it doesn’t grow very long. Why? Because nature teaches us that arm hair is designed to grow to a certain length, and then stop. Now if we compare our arm hair to our head hair what does nature teach us about the difference between our arm hair and our head hair?
Nature teaches us that our head hair was designed to keep on growing and growing until we cut it. Our arm hair is different. It was designed to grow a certain length and then stop. Now let’s apply this to Paul’s argument. What does nature teach us about the hair on the head of little boys, and the hair on the head of little girls?
Is there a difference? No. Both of them have hair that grows. Paul is asking the Corinthians to reason, and then to decide. Does nature teach you that there is a difference between the hair on the head of a male, and that of a female that necessitates a rule that one can cut their hair and the other one cannot? No.
Paul says because not even nature teaches us that there is a difference.
Next Paul is asking the Corinthians to reason another way. Is it a shame for a man to have long hair? The answer has to be, No. Why? Because God, Himself, required some men to leave their hair long. A man who took a Nazarite vow did not cut his hair and God wanted it that way.
In a similar way, the most orthodox Jews did not cut the sides of their hair – the longer the hair on the sides of their heads; the more spiritual they were thought to be.
Was it a shame for a man to have long hair? No, it wasn’t. And the religious Jewish men proved that. Paul himself would have had to have long hair at one time because he took a Nazarite vow. If Paul let his hair grow because of the vow, how could he tell the Corinthians that it was a shame for a man to have long hair?
It wasn’t a shame. And what Paul is saying is, ‘Look, the customs surrounding hair are not from God. You can’t appeal to nature for the custom because nature doesn’t distinguish between male and female. You can’t appeal to shame because God required both male and female Nazarites to grow their hair and then later to shave their hair equally.’
Paul is saying, ‘Look, think, the customs surrounding hair are not God’s customs – they are man’s.’
Paul gives another argument. “For her hair is given to her for a covering.”
In the original Greek the inspired Word does not say “given to her” but “given to ones’ own self,” male or female.
Nature has equally provided to all of us hair for a covering, and nothing additional is needed.
“But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.”
Paul’s last argument against customs dealing with hair is his statement that neither do we, the apostles, nor do the churches of God have this custom.”
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 12:56 am

Sheila,

You have turned the passages above totally upside down. I have never seen such twisting of direct statements, that I can remember. You should have titled the above post, “Come on baby Christian let’s do the twist.”

2 Peter 3
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

You wrote:
““For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off. But, if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off, or her head shaved, LET her cover her head.” 1 Corinthians 11:6
If the woman had the freedom to appear in the worship service without her head covering, Paul says she is also free from the custom of long hair.
Paul uses the words of permission “Let her.” He says, “Let her wear the veil or let her have her hair cut.” The inspired word is one of permission, not of restriction. Paul is not telling the Corinthians that a woman must cover her head. He could not do that – after all, he had just told them that the covering of the head shamed Christ.”

First the passage says, “For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn.” This can only mean that there are two options for the woman to which Paul is referring. 1) To cover her head or 2) to get a crew cut at the longest. That is all the first part of the verse says. (Either cover it or shave it…period.) The reason Paul gives for the woman to be covered is that she is the glory of man.(verse 7) There is nothing in this passage about a head covering representing sin. The covering represents the submission and headship principle discussed in the passage. It is physical symbol of divine authority. Rebelling against the symbol is part and parcel to rebelling against the spiritual.

Paul is discussing new covenant ordinances here.(verse 2) The next one he goes on to discuss is the Lord’s supper. These two ordinances rank right up there with baptism.

Second the passage says, “but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.” Contrary to your assertion, the “Let her be covered is in the imperative mood in the Greek…it is a command, not an option. The second part of the verse is restating the intent of the first part. If you can’t bring yourself to go around shaven or with a crew cut, cover your head. Again, only two choices. No middle length or hair styling is remotely suggested here.

Paul did not say that covering the head shamed Messiah. He said that the covering of a MAN’S head shamed Messiah. He also said that the woman that does not cover her head dishonors her husband. So it kind of goes like this:

If the woman doesn’t care if she shames her husband and so goes about without a head covering, she should also shave her head so that she is also shamed. If she does not like the idea of being shamed, she should also not shame her husband by going about without a head covering. “Love your neighbor as yourself” and “Do unto others as you would have done to yourself” come to mind.

The rest of your post above strikes me as ludicrous also. I have read dozens of books and articles on this topic and studied it and discussed it for 18 years. This is the first time that my mouth has literally dropped open in utter amazement. Please reconsider your stance on this issue. Did you read the link that Big Tex posted?

http://fernshomestead.com/headcovering2.html

Shalom
Dr. Michael L. Brown
January 27th, 2011 @ 2:42 am

Bo,

For some odd reason, when I just happen to look at some random posts online, I spot one of yours that goes too far, this time to Sheila: “You have turned the passages above totally upside down. I have never seen such twisting of direct statements, that I can remember. You should have titled the above post, ‘Come on baby Christian let’s do the twist.’”

So, this will be the last time we’ll go through this routine, but if you can’t post without demeaning the people with whom you’re interacting, you’ll have to desist from posting here. You obviously have something to say on the texts in question, but if you can’t say it without the insult, then you’ll not be able to say it on this site.

All clear?
Sheila
January 27th, 2011 @ 7:37 am

Bo,

I didn’t write the above. It came from the link that Ruth posted. I merely copied the sum of the article.

In other words, they are not “MY” words.
Sheila
January 27th, 2011 @ 7:44 am

The article by Big Tex had a Mormonesque feel to it.
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 10:56 am

Dr. Brown,

Clear.
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 11:00 am

Sheila,

So you read that article clear through? You might let your husband read it.

Shalom
Sheila
January 27th, 2011 @ 11:49 am

I didn’t spend a lot of time on it, no.

My salvation happened when I repented and turned from my sins and accepted forgiveness of my sins. I now walk according to the Spirit, not of those things that are unimportant to serving Him. There is no law that would ever hinder my relationship with Jesus, the Christ, other than those necessary things as outlined by the Apostles and that I hold to. I love the Lord with all my heart, soul and mind, and I love my brothers as my own flesh. There is no greater love than what the Lord accomplished on my behalf and I can’t begin to express the depth of my love for Him, so, please don’t lecture me on serving God for I am keeping His commandment to love His Son and to have faith in Him and what He alone accomplished for me–it comes naturally and willingly for me.

I don’t agree with your not understanding that Christ has the preeminence in all things. To walk in newness of Spirit means, to me, to place Him where He belongs–in my heart.

In being kind to you, I would admonish you to humble yourself, as that is the greatest admonishment given to us.

No apology from you for misunderstanding who wrote what?
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 1:55 pm

Sheila,

My apologies for not recognizing that your post was a quote. Did you agree with the quote?

You wrote;
“I don’t agree with your not understanding that Christ has the preeminence in all things.”

I think that He does have the preeminence in all things. That is why I accept what He told Paul to write about head coverings. That is why I accept what He told John to write about keeping His commandments. The truly spiritual person will acknowledge that what Paul wrote were the commandments of YHWH.

1 Corinthians 14
37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord.
38 If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

Did you ever wonder if YHWH gave us instructions on what He considers love? I wonder if those commandments that we want to be free from are the His very definition of love. (If you love me, keep my commandments.) I wonder if YHWH’s Spirit would lead us to not do those very commandments. Loving our neighbors as ourselves, in its original context is this:

Leviticus 19
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Sin being the transgression of the law, we would have to rebuke our neighbor for commandment breaking if we really love him as YHWH specifies above. If we do not, we are actually hating our neighbor. I doubt that the Word of YHWH made flesh was taking this verse out of context when He proclaimed it to be the second most important commandment. Oops, there is that word that nobody likes…commandment.

So to really love the Son, we must keep His commandments…one of which is to love our neighbor…which would require us rebuking him for breaking YHWH’s commandments. To really love YHWH with our whole heart, soul and strength, would be to keep his commandments. Let’s look at the most important commandment in context.

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

What words are to be in our hearts? What is supposed to be written on our hearts when we enter the new covenant? YHWH’s law. His commandments. If we love Him, we love His commandments…and thus we keep them…whether they come from Paul or John or Moses. So when we love our neighbor, we exhort them to keep YHWH’s commandments. When we keep His commandments we know that we love Him and His children.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

So head covering is about love. It declares the loving submission of the wife to her husband, and thus symbolizes the bride of Messiah’s loving submission to Him. For the wife does not love the husband if she does not keep his commandments. The believer does not love Messiah if he does not keep His commandments.

Ephesians 5
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

The modern paradox is that husbands command/allow their wives not to wear a head covering. This means that they do not love their wives properly because they are not exhorting/rebuking them for breaking one of YHWH’s commandments. They are suffering sin to be upon their wives. They are not loving their wives as Messiah loves the Church. The are also bringing sin upon themselves.

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Washing of water by the word is supposed to cause us to live up to all of our Husbands expectations and thus be without spot or wrinkle. So if an earthly husband fails to use the clean water from the word, even Paul’s writings, to instruct his wife in proper attire, he allows spots to remain on himself and his wife.

Loving ones wife as Messiah loved the church will cause dying to self. Head covering is about humility for both husband and wife. It is about true submission. If you do not think so, try it. “It is the little foxes that spoil the vine.”

Shalom
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 2:08 pm

When the Son of man returns, will He find faith on the earth?
Bo
January 27th, 2011 @ 6:44 pm

A few quotes from Wicipedia under the topic, “Christian headcovering” follow:

“Genesis 20:16, Genesis 24:65, Numbers 5:18 and Isaiah 47:2 are references in the Old Testament referring to a headcovering for women. 1 Corinthians 11:4-16 contains the only reference in the New Testament referring to a headcovering for women and to an absence of a headcovering for men. Various early Church Fathers, such as Hermas[1], Clement of Alexandria[2], Jerome[3], Augustine of Hippo[4] and Tertullian[5] also mentioned women’s headcoverings. Early Christian art shows women wearing headcoverings.[6]

During the ensuing centuries, women definitely wore the head coverings during the church service, especially when praying or prophesying (1Corinthians 11:5). However, during the twentieth century, the practice of headcovering gradually disappeared from many churches, which dropped their requirement that women cover their heads during worship services. At different points in history, the style of the covering varied.[7]”

“Among the early Protestant reformers, Martin Luther’s wife, Katherine, wore a headcovering and John Knox and John Calvin both called for women to wear headcoverings.[14][15][16] Other commentators who have advocated headcovering include Matthew Henry, A. R. Fausset, A. T. Robertson, Harry A. Ironside [17], and Charles Caldwell Ryrie.[18]”

“Those[who?] espousing the practice of headcovering have used Apostle Paul’s appeal to universal principles in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 to argue that since the passage mentions “every man” and “every woman,” as well as the universal order of creation, this passage must apply to all Christians in all ages and of all cultures.[citation needed] Also, some Christians[who?] wear head coverings because Sarah (Abraham’s wife) Genesis 20:16 and Rebekah (Isaac’s wife) Genesis 24:65 wore head coverings.[26] They hold that the Bible is not merely referring to hair, long hair, or submission, but rather a literal cloth headcovering.[citation needed] They support this understanding from the original Greek, which uses two different words: one meaning covering, referring to the woman’s head, i.e., her husband, and the other meaning veiling, referring to a literal cloth covering.[citation needed] 1 Corinthians 11:6 is also cited to refute the notion that the headcovering intended by Paul is merely long hair, (“For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.”) because it would be akin to saying “If a woman has short hair, let her hair be cut short.”[27]”

“Some Christians[who?] interpret the passage as a cultural mandate that was only for the first-century Corinthian church. Therefore, they say, women no longer need to cover their heads.[citation needed] Other Christians believe that long hair is intended to be the headcovering (see 1 Corinthians 11:14-15).[28] Still others believe that a woman’s husband is her covering. Yet another view, propagated by feminist theologian Katharine Bushnell, holds that 1 Corinthians 11 itself even teaches that women should not cover their heads at all.[29]”

I guess feminism has deceived even the Christian woman. In the garden of Eden the serpent tempted the woman with equality with Elohim. Now he can tempt her with equality with man. The standard sure has been set pretty low these days. The strange thing is that the woman is already equal with man in Messiah. So woman is being tempted with a false equality. I’m sorry, Paul just would not go for this.

It is quite a new thing for the church to adopt the “headcovering optional” policy. It is not because there is some new insight into scripture or the discovery of an ancient biblical text. It is because the church is falling in with the world. We are bowing down before the altar of culture and peer pressure…man pleasing, or should that be woman pleasing?

This falling away from “the faith once delivered to the saints” got its start in apostate Europe and spread to the US. The infection of deception is continuing to sicken the whole body. Freedom in Christ can never mean freedom to disobey Messiah or His apostles.

Shalom
Bo
January 30th, 2011 @ 7:42 pm

Ruth and Sheila,

Here is a well done article on 1 Corinthians 11:2-16.

Shalom

February 19, 2010

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