Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions (including Torah for Today? Is the Church Spiritual Israel? and What about Being Slain in the Spirit?)
July 23, 2010 | 130 Comments
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130 Responses to “Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions (including Torah for Today? Is the Church Spiritual Israel? and What about Being Slain in the Spirit?)”
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July 24th, 2010 @ 11:56 am
I, for one, have been asking the questions now addressed here since the format of program blogs extended the opportunity to ask such questions by a radio audience which values the need for this program addressing our culture today. These answers now being a long time in coming to the forefront of opportunity now placed here for their examination–with all of the Hebrew roots movements among the Body–are not untimely or minor matters for our consideration.
Who is Israel, in light of the offerings of both its original Biblical definition and the New Covenant being brought forth from Israel’s converted to the inclusion of those of the nations, has again stood as a vital question today before us, as such in light of early Ephesians as well as Romans 9-11.
In Ephesians train of early thought, we find 1:6 cast too within the past sensibility of all belivers’identity once asserted in popular English translation so extending our “acceptance in the beloved,” (of the KJV and some other translations included). This then was once in common cultural mind as the reference of scripture’s inclusion and grafting in. It is important for all of us to begin any dialogue with this in mind on other matters of the administration of the New Covenant being extended, as charged, to the church. It is written that through the church God has extended his plan of the Ages unto mankind.
July 26th, 2010 @ 11:23 pm
My Pastor points out only one Biblical example of being slain in the spirit, that of Ananias and Sapphira. Now that is really being slain in the spirit. Any takers?
July 26th, 2010 @ 11:34 pm
Lewis — that’s being killed by the Spirit (or, a heart attack), not being overcome by God’s powerful presence, as happened to a number of people in the Bible.
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:14 am
What does the New Testament define as Israel?
What are the significant scriptures applying, and how so?
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:16 am
I request prayer here for my family in transit across the EU today, having now missed two booked flights, with ticket losses for three people twice now due to child health issues.
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:20 am
Just saying there is no Biblical precedent for falling on the ground and shaking. Nowhere is such behavior recorded in the Scripture! When the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus, there was no falling and shaking. Then there was Pentecost–nope, no falling and shaking recorded there either. God is the author of logic,reason and ORDER.
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:44 am
Lewis, I suggest you keep reading the Bible and see if your statements stand true, OK? Also, you’ll learn a lot through reading my book The Revival Answer Book, which tackles these issues in detail in the Word and in Church history.
Let me ask you this for the moment. Paul gives a description of a typical church meeting and says this is the right order. Read it and tell me if this is what your church meetings are like:
1 Corinthians 14:26-32 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets.
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:57 am
Dr. Brown,
I am not saying there are no manifestations of the Spirit (tongues etc), just that they have order. I seem to be missing your point. Sounds like Paul is saying the same thing in the quote you gave. No falling on the ground shaking, just manifestaions of the spirit in an ORDERLY fashion. Can you point to Scripture that mirrors the chaotic scenes found in many churches?
July 27th, 2010 @ 11:14 am
John 18:6 Now when He [Jesus] said to them, “I am He” they drew back and fell to the ground.
July 27th, 2010 @ 11:28 am
Did they stay there and shake for 45 minutes?
July 27th, 2010 @ 12:33 pm
not all people stay down and shake for 45 minutes. In services I have been to where people are “slain in the spirit” it has always been during the altar call. the part of the service where people are encouraged to pray to God about what the Spirit is prompting in their hearts, and if they want to receive prayer from others. In other words if a person falls down because of God’s moving on them it is done at a time when it will not disrupt what is going on around them. it is being done at an orderly way it is not causing chaos to the order of the service or to those who are participating in the altar call part of the service. I believe that satisfies the “every thing being done in a orderly way” requirement.
That being said not every single person who falls down is doing so because of God’s Spirit, but it is presuming knowledge that we don’t have to say that every single case of bing slain in the Spirit is not truely from God. God is free to move on his Children as He sees fit.
now the Churches I have attended where this happens might not be typical or maybe they are but I have seen that pastors and others pray for others only standing in front of them so that if they do fall it is in the belief that God will keep them from physical harm. also I have never seen such behavior detract from the worship of Jesus or lead people away from the worship of Jesus.
Since it is done at a time where it is not a distracton from prayer or worship and because it does not lead people away from the worship of Jesus I do not see a reason to oppose it. if it is from God God is using it to minister to his Childern. If it is a person puting on a show it does not help them and that person will know it in their spirit, and it does not prevent you from your own worship or prayer. What we must do is Worship our Lord with all of our hearts, souls, and bodies. if we fall from the presence of our God it is not bad, if we don’t fall we are not any better then our brother or sister that does, and I do not think God will force us to be slain in the spirit if we do not want it to happen.
July 27th, 2010 @ 12:53 pm
Lewis,
First, is the order that Paul spoke of typical of your church service? Does your pastor endorse this as God’s order?
Second, have you studied any of the great revivals in history?
Third, are you familiar with Jonathan Edward’s statement, “We ought not to limit God where He hath not limited Himself”?
Fourth, I’m sure there are disorderly practices that take place in churches, but I don’t throw out the true because of the false.
Your answers to the first three questions will be helpful.
July 27th, 2010 @ 2:39 pm
Lewis, if what you describe is so as such, it is mystery behavior in terms of most concepts of “order” as someone may think it to be. I have never directly experienced such falling down and shaking personally, but recognize that it can represent a sign following the giving of a prophetic or teaching word or other gift to the body. In such cases it would come under the jurisdiction of awe, some call it being “slain in the spirit.” I recognize too that in some instances emotion and suggestion can be active rather than the “Spirit,” where such can then be disorder, not lining up in affirmation of God in a meeting’s midst.
Dr. Brown seems to be saying, by the quote shared, that such is normative behavior in gatherings, especially so in church history regarding revival “awakenings”; you seem to be questioning whether behavior involving tremoring while reclining, after apparently being so disposed by unseen forces or a force, is disorderly rather than orderly.
One can find evidence of both in factual reporting of such occurances over the years of church history. One can also find reports of renewal for church spiritual reformation as happens through different means that what you both are discussing. We find both existing in reports throughout church history.
This is an area of ongoing theological discussion, where there are objectors to revivalist behaviors, and supporters of these behaviors. If such are indeed a sign following the word of God, and are manifestations of God’s awe and presence, then it may be well to consider what is is God could be up to by such temporary results among a gathering. What do such events and behaviors signify, and why? How would they add to faith, ane why? Who would be involved and affected by the quotation Dr. Brown shared, in an immediate gathering context? And when and when not would such give glory to God and his Son?
In one sense God wants our minds renewed, in a totally different sense God may wish to bypass our usual active mental processes to tell us something about Him; and what would that be, where the scripture quoted is indeed a church gathering related scripture?
July 27th, 2010 @ 3:12 pm
Dr. Brown
My Pastor has no problem with the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. His presence is felt mightily in some of our services. My Pastor will also speak of being led by the Spirit to discuss a given topic. He speaks strongly of intimacy with God. However, my Pastor’s view is that talking in tongues and the like are best done in private or small groups. Why? First because if someone is talking in tongues it takes the focus off the Lord and the teaching and places it on someone else. Second, that sort of behavior may push people who are new to the faith and still finding their way out the door.
I personally find it to be a wonderful thing that the Holy Spirit can show up, convict people, lead them to the Cross, bath them in grace and forgiveness in an orderly fashion. Falling down and shaking is not a requirement for the Holy Spirit to work in the hearts of men.
Second question: No I have not studied the great revivals. But if I had, can I say that the behavior should then be regarded as normative.
Third: “We ought not to limit God where He hath not limited Himself”? I am not trying to limit the unlimited. I am just using Scripture as a touchstone. It can be both a touchstone for what is normative in doctrine and what is normative in behavior. Sense I see NOT EVEN ONE example in Scripture of people falling down and being unresponsive for long periods of time (or even short periods), I must question the validity of that behavior. Is it learned? Is it done because it is expected? Is it mass hysteria?
Fourth: Churches filled with manifestations are in danger of making the manifestation central and not the Lord. Given the emotional nature of humans as a whole, it seems quite easy for people to get caught up and manufacture an experience.
There are for example ministries where the teacher is clearly teaching false doctrine and yet people are falling down, crying out etc. Since the Holy Spirit is not going to manifest Himself to support false doctrine, then what are we to make of all the commotion?
July 27th, 2010 @ 4:16 pm
Lewis, well said, but you ignored my questions altogether. It is written that every wineskin should be filled with wine, and in the New Testament, New Wine.
July 27th, 2010 @ 4:35 pm
Lewis,
Please show me one verse in the Bible that says that someone cannot be overpowered by the Spirit and flattened to the ground, or that someone cannot shake because of His powerful manifestation.
There are churches that preach false doctrine and see church growth. Are we therefore against church growth? I could on with an endless list here, but you get the point.
In any case, I answered a simple question about people being “slain in the Spirit,” and you have simply attacked alleged chaos in different churches. Where’s the connection?
Also, since I don’t have time to answer most posts here, I would strongly encourage you to read my aforementioned book The Revival Answer Book, along with A Time for Holy Fire. Once you digest that material, I’d be happy to interact further as time permits.
July 27th, 2010 @ 5:32 pm
Dr. Brown,
Since my comments are not meant to be unkind, but only probing, I will attempt to read your books to get a better understanding of your view.
As to your first point, arguments from silence are obviously the weakest. With a little imagination, One could list all sorts of things that the Bible doesn’t say and declare them valid. When I look for a Biblical touchstone, I look for what is there as a guide, not for what isn’t there.
I really don’t mean to be difficult, but there is a lot craziness out there. And it seems one needs some way of sorting out truth from error. Your show is a great vehicle for doing this. I feel privileged that someone of your expertise, even takes the time to answer.
Respectfully,
Lewis
July 27th, 2010 @ 5:34 pm
Lewis,
Have you considered to look at the fruit over the manifestations?
July 27th, 2010 @ 6:02 pm
Ben;
Can you clarify your question please?
July 27th, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
Lewis, I am perplexed why you have ignored my input and questions here. It has been past perogative that participants here interchange over the themes discussed on the radio. It is fairly rare for Dr. Brown to interchange directly here. There are posted rules on our interchange which address our interchange.
I was in the Charismatic renewal so-called “Jesus movement,” in the early 1970s, for about 12 to 20 years, depending on how one wants to frame it. I then joined and attended a Presbyterian church for 14 years, helped start a Messianic Minyan gathering, and have been affiliated with a Swedish Evangelical church for almost ten years. I continue with the last two listed church affiliations.
During the over one dozen years in the Charismatic Renewal, I saw and participated in the Presence of manifestations of God, coming forth after his NT word was proclaimed in our midst. I, indeed, did see many slain in the Spirit, though it was never my direct experience. I can testify that in those instances of observation of this occurring, excepting on very few occasions, judging from all else occurring in the local meeting gatherings involved: what I beheld was of God, was a mystery to me as to the “why” of flattening and shaking, but too that some of those so experiencing were healed of historical physical difficulties, and remarked on having their very hearts touched and converted afresh by these experiences.
I agree with you, Lewis, that seeking after these secondary products of God’s presence for and in themselves can be problematic, but disagree that one should resist such actions of the Spirit in meetings where the NT has been proclaimed, Jesus has been honored, or other New Covenant realities have been embraced.
And there is the rub. In the few cases of abuse of such occurrances, it was an abuse of demand or insistance, not of proclamation, or result. There is indeed a fine line between the establishment of an awe of God through affirmations of Jesus the Christ, and the manipulation of meeting behaviors by a supposed minister present. The Holy Spirit has gifts, to give to people, and they populate lists Paul has stated in the NT letters. We are to not, for example, dispise Prophecying, or tongues, when applied in meeting together according to clear guidelines Paul made.
One element of discernment for figuring out if God is active and not human manipulation through a whip em up pump em up cheerleader is: Does this give glory to Jesus, or to man? Another is to discern if there are other avenues for others to minister according to their own calling and giftedness in the local assembly involved? It is great you have a Pastor you respect, but even He is to yield to the maturation of other believers in the local church occurring, not to either be demanding nor manipulating others to a dependency for their own religious experience and approvals of any agenda involved on him.
It is scripture, which Dr. Brown has asserted here, which must be the measuring stick of the basis for validity of any such events or manifestations, and then to the glory of God in the Messiah. That God wants our spiritual growth and development is the very stuff of the NT (that Chrsit be formed “in us”). That we are to share Him and not we ourselves is the bottom line on relgious experience in Christ (II Cor 4:5).
So, where can we embrace what is written as to normal local church experience and not? This would leave room here for much follow-up by us all.
July 27th, 2010 @ 6:20 pm
Fruit, meaning changed lives. For example, it could be physical healing, salvation or being delivered from depression and receiving more joy. Is God only limited on how he wants to change lives in a person? Its more about the fruit which will determine what is of the Lord.
July 27th, 2010 @ 7:21 pm
Ben-
If I understand you, you are asking if the fruit that appears after the manifestation attests to the validity of the manifestation. Indeed, that seems like a reasonable test.
I am constantly looking at the fruit in my own life (not so pleasing I’m afraid) and asking what this says of my roots.
July 27th, 2010 @ 7:41 pm
Jabez H,
Didn’t mean to seem to ignore your comments. I usually don’t have time to interact like this. Today I have been writing a paper and have “tuned in” to the website several times.
I suppose my question comes down to why some can receive the Holy Spirit in a deep personal way without all the physical manifestations. Perhaps it is has to do with the nature of the receiving vessel. But if this is the case then in any given church some would receive the Spirit quietly and others not. In this case I would say different strokes for different folks. But it seems that in certain churches there is only one way to receive the Spirit and that is to be “slain”. That I find curious. Does the congregation “control” what the Spirit can do? Why when the Spirit comes to my church is there just a sense of Awe, a conscious sense of brokeness and grace, while at other churches people are hitting the floor left and right. It is hard to make the claim that the congregation can control the way the Spirit interacts. So why the difference? I am not ruling out the possibility of the reality of being knocked over by the power of the Spirit, I just don’t understand the lack of uniformity between churches.
I also believe God is the Lord of order (look at the order/precision in the universe). When I look at some of the Pentecostal videos (even from Brownsville) with people simultaneously shouting, wailing and crying out, the word order does not come to mind.
July 27th, 2010 @ 9:32 pm
There is another whole testimony of the spirit in relationship to the prayer closet, for sure. Contemplative Christian Spiritual Guidance and Formation literature abounds, from such groups as Intervarsity Press. This would be a more personal and quiet, yet very present Holy Spirit, which can be cultivated indeed. See the writings of Dallas Willard.
July 27th, 2010 @ 9:37 pm
In fact Contemplative Christianity is said to be the discipleship and mentoring movement with the most growth of any leading into this century. The principle is one becomes what they behold (give their attention to), and that one can go to the source, as promised, to hear Him as time is set aside to be pursued. This does indeed require a little effort, yet effort as to practices of yielding oneself to the Spirit of truth and grace, in quiet and confidence.
July 27th, 2010 @ 9:37 pm
Lewis,
I’m glad to answer (even within limited time constraints), I appreciate your probing, I have personally written and spoken against abuses for years, and I’m glad you’ll take the time to read the books.
July 27th, 2010 @ 9:54 pm
There were once famous thoughts on stages of human religiousity as well, found in material like M. Scott Peck’s The Road Less Traveled. Many denominational believers latched on to his ideas regarding the development of fellowship which may start with insistence for outward conformity to unspoken rules of group behavior, then, step by step lead to inner formation by the Spirit of Christ, where then the outward manifestations became less important than actually knowing God himself, and in a 1:1 relationship. Even such folks in such pursuit however continue to have fellowship one with another. They simply look to Jesus Himself, and how He sought renewal as the model for discipleship. Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father.
So, over the centuries of Christian experience there have been many scriptural bases for meeting behaviors, individual devotion, hearing the Voice of God to then obey its step by step direction, and as to constant effort extended toward cooperation with the gentle servant spirit of the Lord. Is a public ministry the only calling, or pirmary one, or was it simply the cooperative effort to then later offer his body as the veil to enter the holy of holies for a greater real life equippage to the calling God makes on a life?
We then can read of contemplative bases for devotion leading to outward ministries rather than vice-versa. Your observations are not unfounded as to asking what does Jesus want of you, as He has formed and made you to be (yet with the NT always sought for guidance, prior to asserting any resulting synthesis).
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:49 pm
Lewis, I suggest too that you read my ten sectioned comments in the Je 16th blog, where I address issues of control and demand, which you have rightly discerned as important as to one’s own commitments and lack of losing oneself to a codependent leadership style, where it is unclear where a leader leaves off and a follower begins. Dependency on human leadership, rather than the word and spirit for guidance and personal choices can be a very unhealthy religious reality. Religious leaders may, over time, become what are called “eagle saints,” but they still are human beings, not God.
We must always keep the goal in mind of getting from where we start with Jesus to where we finish our “race”, and become increasingly like Christ in the process. We simply do not have the Messiah taught Apostles aggressively asserting themselves as to their ministries public profile, in fact their testimony is most often about the suffering involved with the identification with the testimony of Jesus. A power to manipulate is not their testimony at all.
If we spend all of our devotional time attempting to please a human ministry we will not become increasingly like our Master, but, instead, increasingly of the conventions of our religion. His goal set before us is to “love as I have loved.” Just as Peter begain his conversion with the confession of who Jesus is in Mt. 16, and struggled some years with his conventional Jewish roots, he was changed over time to say what he said in his letters. He is simply not concerned with outward conformity but, instead, with transformation of the inner person for outward result and sacred use when the heart gets right.
July 27th, 2010 @ 10:57 pm
Dr. Brown,
I was wondering why you stopped at 1stCor14:32.
..if you continue to verse 39-40
1st Cor 14:39-40 “Therefore, my brethren,”desire earnestly to phrophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”
And then we can go back to verse 33 where it states, “for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”
So the Word definitely speaks of order, and not confusion..
Are these slain in the spirit manifestations based more on church doctrine, instead of scripture? (since you are citing to Lewis to read church revival history.)
I am also concerned because I have heard of the Kundalini experiences (Hinduism) in which the Guru places his hand on the foreheads of people and they too are infused with emotions similar to those of the charismatics. They may laugh, weep, fall down and shake among other manifestations.
I know the eastern religion is a false spirit, but how can we be sure that the slain in the spirit manifestations in God’s church are truly from the Holy Spirit?
I too would like to know where we can justify slain in the spirit in God’s word. I know you suggested your book and shared Jonathan Edward’s statement…but I need supporting scripture in God’s word. I have witnessed these manifestations in small group and large church meetings. Thank you…
July 27th, 2010 @ 11:33 pm
1PE 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.
1PE 4:7 The end of all things is near. Therefore be clear minded and self-controlled so that you can pray. 8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. 9 Offer hospitality to one another without grumbling. 10 Each one should use whatever gift he has received to serve others, faithfully administering God’s grace in its various forms. 11 If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen….
1PE 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed….
1PE 4:19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
1PE 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers–not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
1PE 5:5 Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
“God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble.”
1PE 5:6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.
1PE 5:8 Be self-controlled and alert….
2PE 1:3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
2PE 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You can see where Peter headed his own discipleship (as did Paul, James, John, and Jude).
Even so, the word is heard and understood by degrees, and where “if you continue in my word you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” This really has little to do with outward conformity to religious practices or emphases. But, they still exist as initial experiences and preoccupations for those pulled into the Kingdom by their attractions. The Lord stated, however, that to see the Kingdom it is not meetings which will lead us but being regenerated from above.
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:45 am
Doramari,
The way to test the spirit is the examine the fruit. Its not about falling, shaking, and crying. Its about changed lives.
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:11 am
#29, D. It is written that Jesus will send confirming “signs and wonders” following the preaching of Him crucified and resurrected, as so affirming his substance for extending the Kingdom testimony, and that He has given gifts to men also affiming Kingdom authority and unique ability (see especially I Cor 12 and read the Acts of the Apostles).
It strikes me that also in the Old Testament (Tenach) the presentation of signs and wonders confirming the presence of the authority of God over Egypt by his word of power, affirmation of his relationship with his own, and the administration of varied manifestations of his authority are underscored again and again. Go to the histories of the Exodus and the giving of the Law, and events leading up to leaving Egypt and going afterword into the Land Promised: “signs and wonders” are present over and over.
Let’s see how this carries to the New Testament record from the notion established in the Old.
Deut 26:8 So the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great terror and with miraculous signs and wonders. 9 He brought us to this place and gave us this land, a land flowing with milk and honey [affirming provision, authority, and a promised inheritance]….
Jerm. 32:20 You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and [note, this is in the book containing the promise of the New Covenant, yet the statement carries from the Exodus forward as then being present tense as accompanying the people of relationship with Him], and have gained . The NT would then carry this burden of proof over from the Old Order to the New Order (see Heb. 8 and 10 for this fact).
DA 4:2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me. [Here they are personally impacting Daniel, and protective of Him while upholding even the word of Jeremiah as to intercession Daniel would make for Israel, based on promises made to Israel from Jeremiah as to the length of the Babylonian captivity, and favor while so disposed].
DA 4:3 How great are his signs,
how mighty his wonders!
His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
his dominion endures from generation to generation. [HERE THE DOMINION OF GOD IS LINKED TO SIGNS AND WONDERS].
Acts 4:29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus. [A READ OF ACTS SHOWS HE DID SO AS CARRIED FROM THE DELIVERY OF THE GOSPEL TO THE NATIONS BY THE APOSTLES].
AC 5:12 The apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders among the people [all those looking to them in faith of Jesus]. And all the believers used to meet together in Solomon’s Colonnade. [The meeting placement would then carry the old notion of signs and wonders forward to the New Covenant Administration].
3 So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders.
As I recently wrote, those observed slain in the Spirit in New Covenant gatherings spoke later of the Spirit cleansing, healing, and touching their very hearts. This then is a continuance of signs and wonders following the giving of God’s word to the Jew first then to those among the nations. Just as the Old administration was upheld into Jeremiah and Daniel, so too the New administration of a “better covenant” is alike carried with affirming signs and wonders. Consider those flattened, and trembling as having received the signs and wonders of confirmation of the word of Grace and Truth as is shared in NT based gatherings. I am sure Dr. Brown can give greater details gleaned from many encountered so slain in his various travels undertaken, and various ministry administrations past made.
Who but God’s Spirit can suddenly lay someone flat, and interact within them thereafter while engaging in transactions with an individual soul while affirming His unique ability to do so. Who but God can grant the gifts to men found in Romans, Ephesians, and I Corinthians? What then are the testimonies of those who have experienced this administration of a personal sign and wonder from the personal Father in the Name of the Son?
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:20 am
Jeremiah 32:20 got cut off, it should read Jerm. 32:20 You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours…earlier he states that he will provide for his own there.
It is affirming signs and wonders which carry his authority into present promised territory and peoples in NT gatherings. So, likely the sign and wonder of flattening and trembling–with spiritual interactions within the souls involved at that time–continue the relationship through the unique capacities that are His. Recall too that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to educated people, so said Paul the Apostle.
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:24 am
Doramari,
There are counterfeit miracles and manifestations for many things attested in the Bible. The Kundalini stuff is nothing new or surprising. Ancient magicians used spittle to heal; the ancient gods reputedly used spittle to heal; Jesus used spittle to heal. Does that mean what He did was wrong?
Please do take the time to read the books I mentioned if you’d like more information, and consider some of the other wise comments that have been posted here.
Finally, ask yourself this question: If someone “slain in the Spirit” encounters Jesus more deeply, finds a new love for the Word of God, repents of sin and pursues holiness, becomes burdened to win the lost to Jesus — did the devil do this? The flesh? That’s why we judge a tree by the fruit.
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:36 am
I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit. It is a supernatural confirmation of his word, unless orchestrated by men. I have seen those preaching Christ simply gently touch someone’s head, and waves of the Spirit in gathering places, roll over believers and create this sign and wonder expereince. It represents then an affirmation of Christ’s Spirit being with and among us in gatherings and places.
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:40 am
I am curious, Dr. Brown, what others have observed being the fruit of this signs and wonders experience? Recall that Jesus stated that he who is not for me is against me. Who are we to judge this sign and wonder, and so judge too the Holy Spirit in action. Not wise to state that this is of the Devil, for that would be attributing a work of God to the enemy of God. This is something which Jesus stated put Jerusalem religious leaders in peril of hell fire.
July 28th, 2010 @ 10:39 am
no. 23, Lewis, Elements of your question may still linger??? Likely it is that your Pastor has learned the secret of bringing the sacred meeting ground established at the foot of the cross, now experienced and as to personal devotions effort and rest exerted, from the intimacy of the/his prayer closet into your assembly. In a sense going beyond religious convention beginnings to Messianic completion fulfillments in heart would be the pursuit of some mature and maturing leaders among the flocks and fellowships.
In the New Covenant we do not have to go back over the rituals of regard under the cultic religious system law, to, for example, get to our atonement, nor do we need to be concerned about initial equipage for service over and over again as it was in Acts 1 and 2. Signs usually follow a sowing of the Word, not so the meat of the word. Signs then confirm the initial and subsequent dominion of the King and the Kingdom, not underscore those of a religious convention leading big groups from stages. This is not to say that those leading meetings cannot be placed on stages.
What the Protestant reformation initially embraced as vital to a disciple of Jesus to achieve a discipleship relevance rather than a religious convention relevance have not changed. Even those initial movements of establishing the first century doctrine of faith through grace and its foundations of truth sometimes set up religious conventions later in the place of the truth and grace they had first stumbled upon (as their own histories show as a result of first looking from the viewpoint of the prayer closet after finding frustration with the religious convention they had known, and it becoming corrupt).
Sadly, with the human lust for totality of religious experience, many of the reform foundation movements reverted back to religious convention within one hundred years. May we not do the same.
Religious convention will not satisfy the soul, devotion to, and knowledge of Christ and Him in Us will. We must go to the Soul Keeper to satisfy the soul.
July 28th, 2010 @ 10:49 am
Sorry Dr. Brown. I wanted to read your books before rejoining this discussion but I had to chime in again after the comments on Kundalini. I had never heard of the Kundalini before. But I found this video to show a fascinating parallel with eastern religions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtVGxJU-j2I&feature=player_embedded#!
Now since the Hindu practices date back to the year 4500 BCE, can we say that they are Counterfeiting legitimate Christian practices?
I also ask as you look at the video, does the Word Order easily come to mind? 1 Cor 14:33 (” But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”) While Dr. Brown has pointed out that there is no Scripture that says one cannot fall to the ground and shake, 1 Cor 14:33 does EXPLICITLY And admonish against disorder.
Again I ask, do the Christian segments of these meetings bring the Word Order to mind or would pandemonium be a better descriptor?
July 28th, 2010 @ 11:04 am
When people fall over, they just really can’t help it. There’s a spiritual force which overwhelms them. This happened to me about 32 years ago when I was alone and in my house, facing my little altar where I prayed at that time. I knew it was from God, but I’d never heard of it before until this show. I vividly recall the sensation of greater force; you just can’t stand with such a force.
July 28th, 2010 @ 11:14 am
Ruth;
I can fully understand falling on one’s face as as a response to the full force of God’s Holiness. I can understand some trembling and brokenness as we come to grips with our sinful natures in comparison. Falling on one’s face in the presence of the Awesome Holy God seems fitting. But going into a trancelike state and seizure like activity, seems like a whole other animal to me.
July 28th, 2010 @ 11:48 am
Lewis, I have written to address your objections here. I have extended the notion of Signs and Wonders following after the preaching of the word. I have noted that your concern for order is expressed from scripture, but too with other scriptures involving exercising the gifts preceeding that statement of Paul. Paul advocated speaking in tongues, and he advocated prophecying (the latter as the greater gift). Looking at videos of supposed revivial meetins behavor does not suffice for your investigative and lack of comfort concerns regarding being slain in the Spirit.
You might read of some revivalist history, from the perspective of signs and wonders, of the Presence of God affirming his word, and from the perspective of your concern. Seeing a video stimulates certain feelings in its viewing. My personal fellowship for many years has not been about meetings which exhibit being slain in the Spirit, or about other confirming signs and wonders of the sowing of the Gospel. It has been from those assoicated with the Prayer Closet intimacy of the Holy Spirit in Us.
I would suggest finding healthy Charismatic and New Testament professing groups and visiting three of these to gain other than media visitation knowledge of the subject. I concur with Dr. Brown’s testimony of the fruit of some being so slain. I have presented scripture as to how it may be assoicated as a sign and wonder following preaching of the word. To get to the “pure milk” and meat of the word one will look beyond such initial experiences, as has Ruth, on to maturation and discipleship exchanges with our Master: in study, in devotions, in fellowship, and in affiliation.
I have underscored that your affiliation and your reported spirit of its grace (taken at face value as reported from you) is indeed stemming from a prayer closet intimacy with Christ achieved by the leadership of your fellowship. I have not taken to task that apparently the gifts Paul wrote of in Ephesians, Romans, and Corinthians are apparently not implemented in a large measure there. In other words my view of what you report of your fellowship’s order is positive.
However, you seem to continue to badger the phenomena of being slain in the Spirit as not being in order in fellowships where it occurs. This is simply difficult ground to pursue, and may border on attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the enemy of Christ. Lazarus came forth wrapped in grave clothes. But Lazarus came forward. This certainly was unconventional as to attending those at his home who had gathered there. He should have put on a suit and tie, don’t you think?
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
Jabez H,
You wrote:
“Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father.”
Please give scripture references where Y’Shua “abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity.” If you are saying that He stopped keeping Sabbath or stopped adhering to Torah we have a problem…He would be an imperfect sacrifice for our sins. So please give some references from scripture to show what you are talking about.
You also wrote:
“I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit.”
These are very subjective statements that you make. It is wrong to start with an idea and then proceed to proof text in order to show that your idea is correct. It should be the other way around. We should get our ideas out of scripture and then make our lives conform to it…not vice versa.
How can you say that you are sure that there is something written in scripture that you have not read. (“I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign .”) Are you now going to research the scripture to prove that your experience is valid instead of reading what experiences are valid and then submit to the teaching of scripture? So again…please supply the scripture references that show your statements to be in keeping with the teaching of scripture.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:08 pm
Jabez H,
I agree with you that we should be very careful so as to not attribute real manifestations of the Spirit to the devil, but let us not attribute things of the devil or of the flesh to the Spirit either. We need to be careful what we embrace.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
What then is normal and abnormal behavior/order fellowship? What is normal and abnormal spiritual guidance founded in Christ. What is excessive religious convention, and what is orderly religious convention when gathering in his name.
I would not wish to have to be continuously slain in the Spirit in order to receive inward progressive spiritual guidance in Christ. That would be abnormal, in the stead of reading and studying and applying the Word. I have never been slain in the Spirit. And I have observed it as a phenomena in meetings over many years. When is it thus not of a New Testament decency and order (a Presbyterian preoccupation by the way. I once asked a Pastor at the large Presbyterian church I attended for 14 years what he would do if someone stood up in our assembly and spoke in tongues and interpreted that utterance with understanding in our assembly. He stated he would have the deacons immediately to that person and have them escorted out, give them a warning, and exclude them from fellowship if so insistently participating in its assembly. After this information I sought another church, why?).
Religious convention vs. openness to the Spirit in gathering is why. I enjoyed the meeting order, preprinted in bulletins, and the reasonable interpretations of scripture for our life application when being a Presbyterian. I did not accept that God be excluded there from advancing his Kingdom through the spiritual gifts Paul clearly outlines in the very scripture Lewis has employed for his emphasis. I was sad to sever my connections there, and wish them blessing.
I started a prayer minyan to pray for Israel, the Spirit coming to those in Israel, and for the grace of God to contemplatively address all of us gathering together for that intention. It has then narrowly defined boundaries and goals so related. I also attended a Swedish evangelical church and do here in Colorado. All is decenlty orchestrated in order.
There are indeed excesses and stupors which some embrace in insisting on meeting based religious conventions, whether forbidding the manifestations of the gifts and signs and wonders following the preaching of the word, or not. What are our responsibilities in this regard, and not? Where can we support genuine movements of the Spirit among those gathering, and, if ingenuous, not? Are we the judges and juries of the Spirit, or is the fruit explained here that judge? Do we not continue to have the freedom in Christ do join with his ecclesias pursuing Him, and not?
Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, let the earth hear his Voice, Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord, let the people rejoice.
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:21 pm
…and, if disingenuous, not? My usual typographical stuff here, in a paragraph, above.
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:41 pm
Jabez,
Have you read Jonathan Edwards’ 1741 book on the Distinguishing Marks of a move of the Holy Spirit? He sheds further light on the question of what kind of fruit should be expected. I also excerpt some of this in my Holy Fire book, the chapter on The Proof of the Revival Is in the Living.
Thanks for your comments and insights.
July 28th, 2010 @ 12:45 pm
Bo, dangerous or otherwise, shalom indeed.
I think, in addition to expressing your out of context view on what I wrote, you have arrived here with some pretense. We have had long exchanges elsewhere I am not willing to resurrect here, in this present blog dialogue.
You quoted me as saying “Every disciple is called to be like His Master. In one sense Jesus fulfilled, then abandoned the religious practices of outward conformity in His own walk with the Father”. What is the sense I wrote of, Bo?
A small explaination. In bringing in the New Order (Heb 8 and 10), he was and is the High Priest of its administration, so according to his Atonement accomplishment and the letter to the Hebrews offering access to the Father for adopted children of the Father. The sense I wrote of is about what happened after he offered the “veil” of his fleshly body in this regard for believers to employ as a point of access to enter the holy of holies since the Temple became not vital to outward practices of religious conventions once made by the Priests of Jerusalem. In this sense he has abandoned that religious system’s conventions, ascended to his throne on high, and now gives gifts to people (to men, which is the inclusive noun of women in the NT).
His next step was to offer his blood as a sacrifice before the altar of heaven, a place he came from and could return to by his ability, an ability we do not have. He then taught and appeared before his disciples, with many proofs, for fortu days prior to the ascension. His messengers at that ascension remarked that this was not the season for Him to restore Israel for its eternal Kingdom reference in the hearts and minds at that point of his Jewish disciples.
They then had to move on to the Promise, given in the second chapter of Acts (2:38 % 39). He abandoned at that point the old religious conventions for the New. He went to heaven and did not assert his Messianic throne on earth. He “filled the universe” with his being thereafter. He awaits much to return and establish the throne of David on earth as promised (Acts 3:21). He is the King of the Kingdom who abandoned the old religious cultic system to establish a new order, with the old one passing away.
I do not wish to debate here the nuances of what that means as are expressed in the New Testament letters to followers of Jesus, both among the Jews and among the Nations. I wish to affirm his Kingship and his Kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven. Until that Day.
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:23 pm
Jabez H,
I meant no out of context quotes. It certainly looked to me as if you were saying Y’Shua stopped keeping Torah. Just so you know Y’Shua still kept/fulfilled the Torah after He ascended for we know that He poured out His spirit on YHWH’s feast day.
So how do you reconcile this statement with objective scriptural statements?
““I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration.”
How can you say something is undoubtedly there when you have not read it? We just as well say that barking like dogs, and “toking the ghost” is in the scripture because it is happening in the church and is offered as way to receive something more from the Spirit. Please support your above quoted statement.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:28 pm
Hey folks, PLEASE remember to stay on topic, OK? Thanks!
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:28 pm
Jabez H,
I come with no pretense, it is not my style. I simply want you to show us how what you say is in line with the scripture.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:30 pm
Dr. Brown,
We are discussing Slain in the Spirit, and probably will discuss Torah for today.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:31 pm
Bo, dangerous or otherwise, you also wrote a quote of me:
“I have not researched it, but undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign and wonder NT continuance of God’s dominion of His administration. By extending signs and wonders into those of the Nations gathered in his name–and what else can we call the slain in the Spirit phenomena–we have evidence of a seal of the Spirit.” You then stated:
These are very subjective statements that you make. It is wrong to start with an idea and then proceed to proof text in order to show that your idea is correct. It should be the other way around. We should get our ideas out of scripture and then make our lives conform to it…not vice versa.
FYI, Bo, I did not start with such an idea then to pursue a proof text to affirm it. I stated with the scriptures offered on signs and wonders, as are posted above. I also included years of experience viewing those slain in the Spirit in some gatherings. My conclusion as to a belief that there is “undoubtedly” contained in scripture a specific reference to the phenomena of being slain in the Spirit is by faith in my Father God. So, my thought development moved from scripture, to experience, to possible conclusion for finding a future proof text. In fact I never offered such a text, for I have not honed in on one, but believe it will present as a missing piece of the topic puzzel in time. I cetainly cannot quote it now, for I am unaware of it, yet am acutely aware of the other proofs I wrote of here. Again, you have taken what I wrote out of my blog theme’s thought development.
Michael Brown, I have the book and others by him on my shelf. It is a good source for what you mention indeed. A revivalist focus vs. a holiness renewal focus is somewhat in tension in my own understanding and leanings of what ministry to believers should be about FYI. My own relgious affiliation life history has led to a careful and sober examination of the considerations and concerns involved. I am sure I am a thorn in the sides of some of those who write for your Voice of Revolution magazine accordingly.
I seem to have a unique history and story which leads me to weigh carefully my assumptions, presumptions, and fatherly concerns. I must not go against what is written, and I must also raise probing questions of truth and grace in my calling as a NT Prophet. I seem to not be able to lay down that mantle in my days and devotions, no matter how I try to move on to something less intensive.
Love to you and yours, Jabez
July 28th, 2010 @ 1:45 pm
Jabez H,
Slain in the spirit is not in the scripture. It is an experience that has shown up in force recently. This experience may or may not be of YHWH. But as Lewis noted, the scripture seems to be rather silent on the subject. I do not believe it is a use of faith to believe something is in the scripture which one has never seen. I believe it is true faith to put faith in the scripture, that I have read, by obeying it. Yours seems to be wishful thinking that maybe some day this scripture will show up. People have been looking for this slain in the spirit scripture for decades and it is still missing as far as I can tell.
If I am not mistaken, the view that the experience is real and from above, without scriptural support, is nothing more than existentialism. Ones experience does not validate the truth of a scriptural matter, but quite the contrary…the scripture validates (or invalidates) our experience. Even if we never have a certain experience that scripture supports, our experience (or lack thereof) becomes substandard and is not to dictate what is right.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 2:14 pm
Bo, I suggest you read of revival and awakening history in the church, especially in the UK and the Americas, since the late 1600s to understand the concept and validity involved. You are correct in saying the phrase, slain in the Spirit does not as such appear in scripture. It is a descriptive name given a phenomena happening in some church gathering contexts.
Nor do all specifically recorded references of what can be called signs following the word so appear. There indeed are more descriptions in church history books expanding what signs and wonders refer to than the Bible permits room or timeframe. Hence, we have history books on what religious experience has existed over the Centuries in the name of Christ as operating in the arena of Spiritual gifts and signs and wonders.
It does not take a rocket scientist to read what I have written, or what Michael Brown has written on this blog on the subject. Arguments for and against the subject being of God and of order are offered by the various particpants here so far. As for your conclusions, above, they are some among many.
July 28th, 2010 @ 2:51 pm
Jabez H,
Of course I have already read revivalist history and older and know that there have been those that have fallen down in response to the Spirit. I also know that to hold this as normative is not scriptural. The things found in scripture are scriptural and speak to us as to what ought to be normative. Speaking in tongues is normative for those baptized into the Spirit, according to the scripture. If one falls down in the process, it simply is what happened to the one falling, but does not make the falling equal with speaking in tongues. One is scriptural, one is not.
I have seen many “slayings in the spirit” and such. There is usually an expectation by those that are participating in the service, that the one being prayed for will fall. There are, I’m sure, exceptions to this expectation driven experience. I know that when I was baptized into the Spirit I was unable to stand easily but did not fall backwards or forwards but simply sat down in a chair. There are some that do not have this overwhelming feeling but do indeed get baptized into the Spirit and speak in tongues.
The falling is not a scriptural sign, but speaking in tongues is. There are those that fell when Y’Shua said “I am He.” There are those that lay down and prophesied naked. I am sure that we do not see these incidents as normative for an obedient believer. If you are “NT prophet,” I am sure that you will recognize that the we must not assume or presume that our experiences are to be set up as normative, but that the scripture is our foundation. The falling seems to be incidental not doctrinal.
I still do not see how you can exercise your faith that this “falling” must be in the scripture somewhere but just not noticed as of yet. Is this not presumption? Do you see how dangerous it is to believe this sort of thing? This foundation will not hold up a building made of truth. There are many existential religions out there using this kind of faith in their cult leader. The truth has to be more solid than the confession of, “undoubtedly there is a Tenach promise prophecied that will fit this pecularity of a sign.” For it is likely not a spiritual sign but simply a response to the expectations of those involved or a response to the overwhelming emotion of being touched by the living Elohim, or both.
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 3:03 pm
Dangerous Bo,
My apologies. I forgot for a moment that I also discussed Torah for Today during this show.
July 28th, 2010 @ 5:42 pm
Actually if you read the entire blog you will find a quote by another participant on such a phenomena as cited in the NT>you may wish to take up your issue with that contributor. As for my expectation to find a prophetic reference of the phenomena in the Tenach, this comes from my own experience of studying Biblical Prophecy. Frankly, there are other realities of religious and Christian historical regard I have found in scripture related to prophecy over the years of reading there, taking ongoing inquiry, word study, references reading, etymological and linguistic roots inquiry, contextual history inquiry, map origins study, prayer for comprehension, other passages comparisons, etc. in order to fully understand related concepts or experiences also not literally stated in the Bible as such, but which have come to be accepted among believers and related communities of faith.
Take for example, Is. 53, over which we find Talmud Scholars interpretations differing totally from New Testament, and New Covenant interpretations and scholarship. It is not emphatically stated that this famous section then is about “Yeshua”, not naming his name there; it is so interpreted after the facts of experience as confirmed by the desriptors of that scripture to indeed match up with his life and so in a predictive manner. This then involves hindsight and teleological values in drawing conclusions after examining and reading through prophetic scriptures. Psalm 22 does not name him either, as such. Yet these are accepted as Messianic foretellings, and are widely so accepted by believers over the centuries.
You seem to be demanding that every reference of scripture examined as to forming material for drawing a conclusion of meaning be empatic, precise, and definitive, where prophetic scripture is not always or often so. An approach to prophetic scripture, Biblical poetry and song, the Psalms and widom literature, etc. may indeed not conform to your desires for black and white emphatic statements, precise terms, or literal names and descriptions being stated. Often scholars place names or labels on themes, subjects, or even events that become in time accepted Biblical facts among the faithful. Even so, faith is indeed involved in the final analysis of meaning of most Biblical passage being a subject of what is not yet understood or seen, but what is hoped for.
There then is the reality of Biblical Interpretation based on many factors, some of which I discussed, above. My thought development then stated the fact that I was open to inquiry in the prophetic scriptures on further illumination on the subject, not that I was going to look for a “proof text” at all. My offerings and statements here are based on actual evidence as it has first presented in my religious affiliation path, and as can indeed be Biblically interpreted as being indicated as signs and wonders following after the preaching of the word. This is a fact of Biblical indication, as I then cited it to be. What you quoted was an open statement about what I would be open to find over time, not about a proof text.
Prophetic scriptures are teleological in scope, and may present and be pondered as to interpretive meaning by actual experiences, such as those of the actual life of Jesus, or as to the events of the Gospel coming to the nations, prior to gaining insight into a related Tenach scripture to achieve greater defintion or description on the subject of this or any prophetic fulfillment matter. You may disagree with what I have offered, no problem.
Having encountered the movement of the Spirit in related assemblies, resulting in the phenomena mentioned, I simply cannot dismiss such with a wave of my hand and so as to any level of it not lining up with my or others expectations. In fact, where healing is involved, I simply could place the phenomena under the category of a NT Gift of healing, but, other indicators placed it as a sign and wonder related to confirming the authority, sovergnty and dominion of affirming the NT word of God and the King and the Kingdom.
I don’t believe I emphasized the word falling, you did. I have not been engaged in any administration of such a phenomena, when encountered, and note it would be unwise to definitively conclude that because an applicable phrase is not found in scripture that some use as a label for a religious experience observed, that another word or phrase therein does not grant adequate information for an indicative definition. In other words in spite of your expectation, what I shared would undoubtedly be pursued over time and was about what I felt from past experience in studying the prophets would occur as a result of study. Call it a gut level belief or expectation formed after some years of Biblical discovery.
July 28th, 2010 @ 7:10 pm
Jabez H,
Lets talk about signs and wonders as they are related in the scripture. The Red Sea was parted, the cloud led Israel in the wilderness, people were miraculously healed of leprosy, blindness, lameness, and deafness. There was also walking on water, calming storms, demons being cast out, snake bites that were rendered harmless water made to wine, and food multiplied.
Now we have people falling down, laughing uncontrollably, barking like dogs and making other animal noises. (A good hypnotist can do these things.) Can you see a difference between what we find in scripture and what we see a lot of today? Being “slain in the Spirit” is not a sign or wonder worthy to be compared to the scriptural miracles. As I said before, falling down may be a response to being touched by the living Elohim, but it does not seem to be on the same plane as what is described in scripture as a sign, wonder or miracle.
The times in scripture that people fall down seem to be when demons throw them down or as I listed before, falling back when Y’Shua said “I am He” and Saul laying down naked prophesying. Let’s not elevate “falling under the power” to the level of scriptural signs and wonders. There is just too much qualitative difference between modern falling and scriptural miracles to think that there might be some oblique prophetic utterance that could be construed to warrant calling being “slain in the spirit” a scriptural miracle.
Surely by now, after decades and maybe centuries, someone would have come up with this scriptural understanding that you have “faith” will show up. This revelation would have shown up long ago if it really was that important. The passages that you list as not being seen as Messianic prophesies have been seen as Messianic from at least the first century. There are some indications that they were seen in this light by the sages long before this. In light of this, I think your analogy is spurious at best.
Experience is not our guide…Scripture is. So whether we are talking about keeping YHWH’s feasts that He commands instead of pagan celebrations of Xmas and Easter, or about scriptural miracles instead of modern ideas of falling or “toking the ghost,” we must cast away any experience that does not pass the test of scriptural truth. Modern Christianity has replaced YHWH’s appointed celebrations with pagan counterfeits. It has also replaced true miracles with hypnosis and peer pressured falling and such. What will be next?
When will we get back to simply believing what the scripture states instead of inventing our own versions of worship, holiness and righteousness?
Shalom
July 28th, 2010 @ 11:38 pm
Bo,
Speaking for me is totally disrespectful of me and of a process of dialogue honored here. Your alleged descriptions of the subject are added to what I have observed of this subject as being my own. These are offered in addition to what I have stated regarding what I have observed of the subject’s alleged meaning–which you have aggressively offered instead as supposedly sourced of my stated experience.
Your remarks are not based on asking questions of my person or on statements I have made at all about the subject. Thereby there is no basis of actual discovery of intention of meaning for the statements your reply associates with me. Your remarks contain what was only assumed as addtionally representing my personal observation experience of the subject of discussion here.
In addition a scriptural reference development was also offered which can be read in this blog as indeed inclusive of my statements on this subject. This too has been taken to task as being supposedly invalid, when the thought development and scripture past quoted simply say otherwise. It is not then a different reality than what I stated which you offered in response about scripture, slain in the Spirit, and signs and wonders connection I cited which is substantiated, or not so, but the exclusive methodology of response which is unsubstantiated.
Instead of seeking a respectful dialogue, you have offered your own substituted statements in the stead of my experience on the subject, along with a negative characterization and a phony testimony as are erroneously constructed in response. Additional associations composed of your own contributions, as represented as then being my experience of the subject of discussion, become highly suspect by giving other substituted experience for my own (as such this was not even close to what was observed over many years).
As made, these assumptions are coupled with a communication methodology which is disruptive of dialogue. This is suspect by conveying a manner of disrespect which is also coincidentally extended toward my person by considerable misinformation offered by a replacement response representing my last post.
I offered explaining what my process on this subject and prophetic scriptures inquiry will be to qualify a statement I had made which you quoted out of its context, and was met with mockery, with accusations of inaccurate associations made, along with indications of contempt I have not alike asserted in respecting a communication process. I have not observed, for my basis of statements I made, the phenomena including “barking like dogs”, hysterical laughter, or making other animal noises, quite the contrary. If I had, such too would be subject to the inquiry of scriptural tests, logical analysis, and other witnesses qualifications regarding instances observed: as to then representing any connections of the subject at hand with God, for sure.
In spite of your mockery, personally, substantiated concerns of an alike characterization regarding what I observed are non existing. I cannot then assert along with you such a spurious and disrespectful response that no one over past time and space has discovered such a prophetic scripture on the subject at hand due to all past scholarship. It is impossible to be completely knowledgable of all past scholarship on the subject, as you have asserted as a basis for your statement on scripture and the subject at hand.
A survey of the literature is not offered otherwise to substantiate your assumptions and reframed characterizations. As to a text from the prophetic scriptures not existing, perhaps such is so, perhaps not; it remains to be seen for my own inquiry, explained as such. As to any such discovery by me it will be with what was stated as an attitude open to such possibility, based on past reading regard, and not supposed of a dogmatic insistence. I have not even read on the net to date on the subject at this juncture. I require more information to disregard all prophetic scripture as you have as not possibly contributing light on this subject. What has been regarded then positively is from observance seen over a decade of the phenomena of comment here.
Just so, I will continue to read what I read with or without your permission, as that is a basis of the nature of any person’s scholarly inquiry. A gatekeeper to such pursuit is not sought, or needed–especially one who jeers at others open discussion, and substitutes other disassociated meanings as being representative of someone else with their own.
You have missed the point of what I said for an example about Messianic prophecies, which were indeed accepted for centuries, the point being that they required interpretation for comprehension. This is upheld regarding their interpretation now standing in the light of actual experience–they not presenting the literal names of Yeshua in their expression. These allusions were used for relating that point as an example relevant to a discussion, were it permitted here.
That the point was missed indeed has me cautious as to developing further interchange, so I must request that we withdraw from all mutual engagements here.
Your objection of my acceptance of “slain in the Spirit” as being of God (as was offered with considered signs and wonders scriptural qualifications)—you stated as such regarding finding no such appearance of the actual phrase in scripture. This was spurious for my response involved explaining what would be my process and thinking in approaching scriptural research,where the cited prophetic scriptures as an example indeed held meaning without an actual stating of their subject’s actual name in them.
My thoughts then developed in this blog along with pursuing known qualifiers over such being of God; you then disrespected regarding my openness to inquire with a common approach to prophetic scripture to discover passages and derive their meaning in the light of historical contextual experience. It is disrespectful because of a follow up assumption including speaking for my person as to statements I have never made, with whom you had and have not consulted as to what would be my process of inquiry on the matter. You did not request this information but belittled by assumptions stated.
Asking me how I would approach the challenges involved differs from the mockery and mischaracterizations you have now advanced. Nor have questions been asked as to any further qualifications of how the subject was viewed as being in Christ, where so.
So, since you did not get my point, my point is reiterated about being open to an identification of the phenomena in question, as was so labeled, where it not have to appear literally as the same exact phrase to be so identified, in time, in prophetic scripture. I am unwilling to further interchange with you on this matter by the approach modeled.
July 29th, 2010 @ 12:31 am
Bo, put simply I did not equate the sign and wonder of being slain in the Spirit with a scriptural miracle, though you made the assumptive assoication. I wish no further contact.
July 29th, 2010 @ 10:07 am
Jabez H,
I guess I misunderstand you. I thought I was commenting on your statements that I quoted and meant none to be out of context. It could be that the length of your posts makes it difficult for me to rightly see your logic or your points. I did not mean to put words in your mouth, but used normal debate techniques to show what I thought were weak points in your arguments. No dishonor or insult was intended.
I guess you misunderstand me too. As for you putting words in my mouth…I did not intend to make a point that the phrase “Slain in the spirit” needed to be found in the prophetic writings, but that the experience looks to be nonexistent by any name in the scripture. I certainly could be wrong, but I offered the only scriptural examples of “slain in the spirit” type experiences that I have been made aware of in 30 years of reading/dialoguing on the topic.
I respectfully agree not to address you further on this topic.
Shalom
July 29th, 2010 @ 10:07 am
Ruth,
Thanks for your report and identification with this experience as you knew it to be of God. I should also add over the ten years of observing such experiences for some, negative descriptors made by Bo did not occur. As for decency and order it was almost prayer closet like in effect. How voiceferous was it for you, Ruth? This is not to say others in other settings can not know a variant experience.
Chas. Finney
July 29th, 2010 @ 10:21 am
Shalom
Bo did not intend any negative descriptors as to the experience of falling and such, but only postulated that the experience does not seem to be found scripture. Here is my main points:
“The times in scripture that people fall down seem to be when demons throw them down or as I listed before, falling back when Y’Shua said “I am He” and Saul laying down naked prophesying. Let’s not elevate “falling under the power” to the level of scriptural signs and wonders. There is just too much qualitative difference between modern falling and scriptural miracles to…warrant calling being “slain in the spirit” a scriptural miracle.”
“The falling seems to be incidental not doctrinal.”
“For it is likely not a spiritual sign but simply a response to the expectations of those involved or a response to the overwhelming emotion of being touched by the living Elohim, or both.”
Shalom
July 29th, 2010 @ 10:22 am
Please forgive the typos above. I was trying to go too fast again.
July 29th, 2010 @ 2:44 pm
I would like to entertain the idea that the YHWH’s Torah is for us today.
The gospel was preached to those at Sinai and unto us. This is stated in scripture. If you want to take the “us” to mean the Hebrews of that time…fine. We as gentiles can be grafted in and be partakers of everything offered to them. So the “us” means us in the final analysis. Peter certainly makes this point in the passage quoted below. If you take issue with the gospel being the same, I simply point you to Abraham that “saw My day” and David that said, “YHWH said to my lord” referring to Y”Shua. “By faith” they entered into the priesthood of the believer. Their faith looked forward and ours looks backward to Messiah’s sacrifice. I know that the prophets of old couldn’t see everything perfectly, but the scripture says that we see through a glass darkly ourselves.
Hebrews 3:18-4:2
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
The first ones that heard it did not mix what they heard with faith and disobeyed. They refused to continue to listen to YHWH so He separated the tribe of Levi to be priests instead of all of Israel being priests. Here is the offer:
Exodus 19
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Here is where Israel refused to hear/obey His voice and opted to here His representatives instead:
Deuteronomy 5
25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the LORD our God any more, then we shall die.
26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 Go thou near, and hear all that the LORD our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the LORD our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it.
Here is where we see that the offer to us is the same:
1 Peter 2
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
The Levitical system was instituted because Israel as a whole rejected the opportunity/responsibility of hearing YHWH for themselves. The people could have had a “personal relationship” with YHWH and been His priests, but after this they needed someone to teach them YHWH’s will and they needed a covering for their sins until Messiah came in the flesh. They needed priests to mediate between them and YHWH. This earthly sacrificial system “entered because of transgression.” This schoolmaster was put in place to bring us to Messiah.
So the Levitical system with its “ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary” was set in place because of the refusal by Israel. The book of Hebrews openly declares that Messiah is a different type of high priest. With a different priesthood there are different “ordinances” of administration. The NT sacrifices are different. The NT temple is different and in a different location.
Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
We know that YHWH had His appointed festivals (they are not Jewish feasts) and rules about clean and unclean long before Israel stood at Sinai. The author of Hebrews tells us of the differences between the systems but does not indicate that the clean/unclean or holy/profane rules have changed. He does not indicate the abolition of YHWH’s appointed times. He (the author of Hebrews) refers to Jeremiah 31, not to show how there is a new law, but a new covenant. The change in the law that He refers to is solely concerning the Levitical ordinances and not that YHWH’s law has changed. We will have to wait for a new heavens and new earth for that to take place.
Shalom
July 29th, 2010 @ 2:53 pm
Hebrews 7
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Under the Levitical system the people were taught the law. Under the Melchizedec system the people listen to YHWH for themselves and the YHWH’s law is on their hearts. The church, for the most part, has sold its birthright to a false Babylonian priestly system and has believed the false prophet’s proclamations that the law of YHWH has been changed. We have been duped.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
2 Thessalonians 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It is a setup. The spirit of antimessiah is here and preparing the masses for the antimessiah. Unrighteous is sin…sin is the transgression of the law. We will be sent strong delusion it we continue to have pleasure in unrighteousness (law breaking). We need to receive the love of the truth (have the law written on our hearts) or we will not be saved. If we do not speak according to the law and the 10 commandments we have no light in us. We are being deceived. It is the antimessiah that changes the appointed times of YHWH and His laws, not Y”Shua. The earth is difiled/unclean because we transgress YHWH’s rules about clean/unclean and holy/profane. It is defiled because we think to change times and laws. We think to change the ordinances of YHWH. We are breaking the everlasting covenant.
To be continued:
July 29th, 2010 @ 2:55 pm
Continued from above.
The gospel has been the same since the garden. It is everlasting. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the earth. His sacrifice has always been in effect. The priesthood of the believer has always been YHWH’s design.
Re 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Israel entered into a covenant with YHWH to obey the ones that He set up to speak His words to them. They opted themselves out of the covenant that would be YHWH speaking directly to them. YHWH offers them a new covenant that gives them back the opportunity that they gave up. Now they can be the priests instead of needing to go to the priest. This is what the main body of the book of Hebrews is about.
Hebrews is preparing the Hebrew believers for the impending destruction of Jerusalem. The temple and its ordinances were about to be “vanishing away.” Messiah had told them to flee when this was about to take place. The call to come outside the camp and suffer reproach seems to have a double meaning. A call to spiritual devotion and a message to be ready to leave before the carnage. The Messianic believers were about to be cast off from the main body of Jews for not staying to fight. The schism was coming soon and they needed to be weaned from that which was vanishing away. Like us, it was difficult for them to divorce themselves from the culture and its ways of worship.
The kingdom, “new order” as you put it, was prophesied to become corrupted. Matthew 13 is a prime example. Some will not be able to receive the Word of YHWH for various reasons, but a few will bear fruit, 30, 60 and 100 fold. An enemy will sow into the kingdom many false believers. The whole batch of dough gets corrupted with sin and false doctrine (leaven). In the end those that offend (cause others to sin/transgress the law and those that are lawless/without torah will be burnt in the fire. The kingdom mutates into a huge tree in which evil ones nest in its branches. The kingdom is corrupted by Babylon and is full of unclean birds/people. We are called to come out of her.
So we have those that insist that we not obey YHWH’s law and many believe them and are caused to sin. We have pagan religion and false doctrine mixed into the batch of dough so that it is all leavened now. We have the multitudes, that for every conceivable reason, cannot understand the Word and they do not bring forth fruit unto righteousness and holiness.
The commandments of men make YHWH’s law of no effect. Y”Shua didn’t come to change even the slightest pen stroke, but we have an almost totally leavened church that insists that He changed it. He hasn’t changed it. We have changed it by our commandments of men. We are the ones that think to change His laws and ordinances. We think we are clean when we are not. We think we are obedient when our transgressions of the law (Sins) are obvious.
Pr 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits.
Shalom
July 29th, 2010 @ 7:49 pm
Bo, I am shifting now to what you have written above, where all items your raise here now we conducted blog interactions over prior, in what built to 300 comments prior to Michael Brown requesting a disengagement; this was so, for, he remarked his concerned that such would become a personal argument involving personal attacks rather than a discussion for edification of the body of the Messiah. I too became very weary of the interaction and welcomed his intervention accordingly.
Here is the rub, where you, as a debator, might tune into some of Dr. Brown’s debates sometime just to analyse these as to how he conducts his interaction when debating over upholding his convictions. There is an aspect of his debate which involves paraphrasing what his opponent has offered prior to taking it to task, where so, noting places of agreement and mutual regard, as well as responding point by point to whatever the theme is of the debate, and the substance or lack of substance his opponent and a survey of the literature on the subject then and thereby raise.
I am not willing to beat a dead horse here rereviewing all that you bring up once more,as insistently so, above. For Example, the gospel you cite in Hebrews is the good news about entering into God’s rest, not the Gospel of Jesus come, crucified, and resurrected for our inclusion in the beloved (Eph 1:6, KJV). It is the good news that that gospel can provide rest which the earlier framework of the Mosaic law implemention cultic system could not. Read the passage you cite in context, rather than as parceled out for projecting into it your desire for the law to hold as to our obedience criteria somehow being carried into the New order (Heb. 8 & 10)–and if you cannot permit that read–allow us to acknowldge that we disagree and move on to something else.
It is constrictive of the administration of the New and Living Way to have to now account for every behavior in terms of 613 precepts which were given in an historical literal referenced context which the writer of Hebrews addresses fully. The New Testament contains sufficient lists of sins and requirements for not sinning for its readers.
It seems to me that you have constantly projected your desire for the law to still be in force and obligatory to New order believers in all you have stated in the past on this matter. Your read of the section of Hebrews, above, is taken totally out of the context its writer asserts, to mean something else not so asserted. And that is my take on the many passages over which you, I, Dr. Brown and others past interpreted differently as to application, liberty, and the will of God.
Frankly, I refuse to break the Hebrews passage down again for you here, as was done on another blog of Je 16th under the LINE of FIRE umbrella. Even Dr. Brown completely disagreed with your understanding of the law’s present dispensation being as you presented it to be. There were certain passages he interpreted as you did, where his conclusion of the matter was exactly the opposite of your own based on a wide collection of all New Testament passages on the subject of obligation to the Mosaic law.
All angles on the matter were addressed, discussed, mulled over, presented, and interpreted by you and others and myself there.
As someone else remarked, it was going in circles, revisiting the same material, interpetations, and positions over and over and over.
And you have raised a key fulcrum (pivotal) point here above: are we under the law or included in the heavenly perspective of the risen Christ in grace and truth? Is there therefore a New Covenant dichotomy regarding obligation and referenced behavior obedience, or not? Conclusions and argumentation is found in the Je 16th blog discussions, it would be a dead horse remounted to go over all this again here.
As to your take on this matter you have beat the issue to death on Je. 16th, and have had many who went the long road to politefully address you and your ideas while enduring your manner conclude a 100% polar opposite conclusion than yours. My own final interaction with you on the matter was to carefully paraphrase what you had prior stated, and openly so, as to posturing an openness to further understanding if I indeed understood you correctly as I then attempted to summarize what you wrote.
You then wrote back a very clear summary of your assumptions and beliefs. My final statement was to say where we agreed and disagreed. You have not persuaded me, or Dr. Brown, and I or he had not persuaded you. Let it rest, or simply give the references of your final summaries of your position there once more, without rehashing an endless debate. Restate once more your very literal and legal position on adherence to the precepts–as a post here for all to go back to or refer to if they need any further clarification of your beliefs.
Relationally Dr. Brown’s debating technique is of the more excellent Way; he is a better relational debator than I will ever be–extending the love of God shed abroad in his heart, while too upholding what he is convicted of that scripture says on this or that matter or issue. For example, he addresses homosexual behavior and philosophy head on, and yet with great compassion. He uses words wisely, undoubtedly as formed from the anvel of his life experience and religious and faith histories. He has both a controversal history, and a tenacity to return to the source for his own spiritual formation and reformation again and again. He is an eagle saint and role model, learn of him.
It is amazing to listen to these debates he has conducted, or is Jesus the Messiah formed in him debating by his vessel: on predestination, homosexual issues, marriage and the family, the various subjects raised of Line of Fire, or whatever? We can learn from him how to discuss, not monologue while presenting point counterpoint material and references. We need to move away from endless mulling over of any matter about which we may be convicted.
As aa trained debator, and counselor, with a New Covenant calling, and Geographical Information Systems Analyst, and Communications Media Designer, I advise you, as a brother, to take some steps back from where you are relationally/spiritually, and go somewhere for a prayer closet retreat, and take along Howard Baker’s Intervarsity Book on listening to God and see if He affirms what you are insisting on now once more.
Personally, I request the same disengagement on your new/old subject now raised as I did on the former subject of engagement here. Frankly, it rasps, vexes, and wearies my inner person to continue on with your road taken here on either interchange. You may phone my message line, 720-242-5347 to leave your phone number and I will be happy to return your call after the 5th, to converse on how this present style of interaction shuts down a mutual regard of the New Commandment our Lord has mercifully extended to us, and what might be done about this current spiritual impass.
July 29th, 2010 @ 8:08 pm
Wrong number should end in 5237, thanks! Jabez
July 29th, 2010 @ 10:01 pm
Jabez H,
I was not addressing you personally in this post, but it was intended for anyone that might read it and be challenged thereby. So please do not feel that you need to respond, and do not be offended if I bring up relevant points on this blog that you and I have discussed in previous blogs. If you have answered me before, you do not need to answer now. If you feel the need to answer then I will assume that you have rescinded your request for non-contact and may begin to address you personally again. I may give you a call sometime.
As for the new commandment that Y’Shua gave us, it in no way eliminates His father’s commandments. The Father’s commandments are perceptual details on how to love Him and each other. I do not believe that you have addressed many of the points I raise above in a way that would prove a scriptural rebuttal. The reader may judge. It is quite obvious that Anti-messiah changes YHWH’s times and laws. It is also quite obvious that Y’Shua did not and said so Himself.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Shalom
July 30th, 2010 @ 12:12 am
Michael Brown, My first post #1 question in this blog has not been answered, can you direct me to an answer?
July 30th, 2010 @ 12:40 am
Jabez,
I don’t see many of the posts, so thanks for asking the question again. Do you have my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? I try to address your question re: Israel’s identity in chapters 12-14.
July 30th, 2010 @ 2:45 am
Dr Brown,
I sure appreciate you addressing the issue of the church being proclaimed as Spiritual Israel. I’d love to hear you address this with partial preterist Dr Gary DeMar(I am aware of your previous interaction with him.)and perhaps with a Catholic theologian who deals with eschatology like Scott Hahn (http://www.franciscanconferences.com/Summer/SpeakerDetail.asp?SpeakerID=60) who recently spoke at a Franciscan University Conference in Ohio(http://www.franciscanconferences.com/Summer/confdetails.asp?ConferenceID=206). Keep up the great work! Blessings!
July 30th, 2010 @ 2:48 am
Also looking forward to your interaction with the FFOZ guys regarding Torah observance.
July 30th, 2010 @ 9:37 am
#72, Dr. M.B., Thanks for the reference, yes I have and give away copies of that amazing book, but have not read it for many years. I will again soon.
July 30th, 2010 @ 10:55 am
Concerning Torah for today:
It will be good to hear the program with FFOZ. They have some very good resources. Here’s a link to one article that I found to be eye opening and insightful:
http://ffoz.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=210
The article in this magazine titled’ “But We Are Free! the rule of law” under the moral and ethical issues in Torah section is the one that I endorse. It will cost $3.00 for the download of this issue of their magazine, but it is worth it.
Shalom
July 30th, 2010 @ 11:19 am
Here is an portion of the above mentioned article where FFOZ author D. Thomas Lancaster discusses a portion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book, “The Cost Of Discipleship.”
“The law Jesus refers to is the law of the Old Covenant, not
a new law, but the same law which he quoted to the rich young
man and the lawyer when they wanted to know the revealed will
of God. It becomes a new law only because it is Christ who
binds his followers to it. For Christians, therefore, the law is not
a ‘better law’ than that of the Pharisees, but one and same; every
letter of it, every jot and tittle, must remain in force and be
observed until the end of the world. Jesus has in fact nothing to
add to the commandments of God, except this, that he keeps
them. He fulfills the law, and he tells us so himself, therefore it
must be true. He fulfils the law down to the last iota.”
Bonhoeffer
The thing that makes Bonhoeffer so unique among theologians is that he refused to trivialize and explain away the words of Yeshua. He is one of the few among us that actually took the Master literally. Bonhoeffer did not feel the need to be wiser than Yeshua. He did not try to be smarter than the Gospel. He did not substitute rationalization for obedience, and because of that, Bonhoeffer met martyrdom in the death camps of Nazi Germany while many fine and comfortable Christians were goose-stepping around with swastikas on their uniforms.
Bonhoeffer believed in the rule of law, and to him, a theology that did not confess the rule of law was theology of “cheap grace.”
(Article: “Ethics of the Torah: The Rule of Law” by D. Thomas Lancaster)
Shalom
July 30th, 2010 @ 11:36 am
So now I am wondering if anyone can look at these next few passages and not at least wonder if it is possible that YHWH wants us to continue to keep His Torah:
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony (10 Commandments), seal the law (Torah) among my disciples.
Isa 8:20 To the law (Torah) and to the testimony (10 Commandments): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
2 Thessalonians 3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
7 For the mystery of iniquity (Law breaking) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
Can you see the contrast? Is it possible that we are caught up in the mystery of law breaking? Is it not obvious that Messiah is the one that does and TEACHES us to keep even the very least commandment and that the spirit of Anti-messiah tells us that we do not have to keep YHWH’s Torah and 10 Commandments? Are we not saying that Messiah is not the greatest in the kingdom when we say that He teaches us to not do the Torah? Do we not make Him into the Anti-messiah when we do this?
Shalom
July 30th, 2010 @ 12:33 pm
Here is a brief list of scriptures about Torah keeping with a few comments before each one.
We know what sin is because of the law.
Ro 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Sin is breaking the law.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Shall we break the law (sin)? Don’t even think of it.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
The law is not sin…it is not sin to keep the law. It is sin to break the law (see above verses).
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law is holy, just and good.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The law is spiritual. We tend to be carnal. The law is not carnal. We can be spritual.
Ro 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Even when we break the law (sin) we admit that the law is a good thing by confessing our failure as sin.
Ro 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Do we really serve the law of YHWH with our minds if we say it is not good to obey it.
Ro 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Only a carnal mind fights against YHWH and His law. The carnal mind cannot submit to Torah. The law is spiritual (see above verses).
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
If we submit to the teaching in the law from a heart full of gratitude and love for YHWH and love for our neighbors we use the law lawfully. If we are trying to earn salvation by being obedient we are not using the law lawfully. The law is still good.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
The law is spiritual. Will we remain carnally minded and say the law is bad when it is good? Will we continue the break the law and think that it is ok because we are under grace? May it never be!
Shalom
July 30th, 2010 @ 8:36 pm
Rest for your souls…TORAH!
Matthew 11
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
What is Y’Shua’s yoke? Was He referring to something that doesn’t, at first, meet the eye? There is only one other place that we find the phrase “rest for you souls.” It is about returning to YHWH’s Torah…the old paths.
Jeremiah 6
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
“But they said, ‘We will not walk therein.” Are we rejecting YHWH’s Torah (law) by walking in some new path (false grace) instead of the asking for the old paths that bring rest to our souls? Have we been taught that the old paths (Torah) are bondage and a burden to keep. Y’Shua walked in the old paths perfectly. If we yoke up with Him, what paths will we walk in?
1 John 2
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
YHWH’s Torah is not burdensome/grievous. It is not too hard for us…if it is in our heart.
Deuteronomy 30
10 if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
To be continued.
July 30th, 2010 @ 8:36 pm
Continued from above:
YHWH offers us a new covenant in which He will write His Torah on our hearts. He does not change His laws He simply places them in our hearts instead of on stone. Love for YHWH and His Torah is what makes it not too hard or grievous to keep.
Jeremiah 31
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Is YHWH’s Torah upon your heart, or is it grievous/burdensome to try to do what He has commanded?
Luke 11
46 And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers! for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers.
The commandments of men are burdensome and heavy. Y’Shua wants us to return to the unadulterated word of truth and not participate in the commandments of men that make the word of YHWH come to nothing. What is it when the pastors of today tell us that we do not need to keep the commandments of YHWH (Torah)? It is doctrines and commandments of men that cause us to err from the old paths…the paths that Y’Shua walked. The prophets of today only put a patch on the gaping wound that lawlessness produces. We do not have real peace with YHWH unless we obey his instructions (Torah).
Jeremiah 6
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
The false grace message may tickle our ears so that we feel like we have peace, but only obedience to YHWH’s commandments from a changed heart can perfect our love.
1 John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked
1 John 4
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.
1 John 3
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Let’s keep His commandments and do those thing that are pleasing to Him…not just one or the other.
The TORAH…will we walk therein…as Y’Shua walked therein?
Shalom
July 31st, 2010 @ 10:16 pm
According to the Apostles, is Torah keeping appropriate for believers in Messiah?
We were dead in our sins.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s Torah/law.
1Jo 3:4b …for sin is the transgression of the law.
We would not have known sin except for YHWH’s Torah/law revealing it.
Ro 7:7b …Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:…
Y’Shua was made to be sin for us.
2Co 5:21a For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;…
He died to take away our sin (Torah violations).
1Jo 3:5a And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins;…
While we were yet sinners (Torah breakers) Messiah died for us.
Ro 5:8b …while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
We receive forgiveness by grace through faith in His sacrifice.
Eph 2:8a For by grace are ye saved through faith;…
Faith does not nullify YHWH’s Torah.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Grace does not give us freedom to sin (break YHWH’s Torah).
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are…under grace? God forbid.
In Y’Shua is no sin (transgression of Torah).
1Jo 3:5b …in him is no sin.
We are to walk in His steps.
1Pe 2:21b-22a …leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin,…
If we sin (break the Torah) we have an advocate.
1Jo 2:1b …And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
If we live in sin (transgressing the Torah/law) we do not know Him.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Unrighteousness is sin (transgression of Torah).
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:…
Those that are righteous do righteousness.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom.
1Co 6:9a Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
The Torah teaches us how to be righteous.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture…is profitable for…instruction in righteousness:
We are to be doers of the Torah and not hearers only.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
The Torah is righteous, just and good.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
The Torah is not sin.
Ro 7:7a What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
But transgressing the Torah is.
1Jo 3:4b …for sin is the transgression of the law.
It would seem that it is not sin to keep the Torah and that it is sin not to keep it.
Shalom
August 1st, 2010 @ 8:29 pm
I guess nobody is reading this blog, or no one wants to discuss the NT passages I have brought up. It does seem that there are many pro-Torah possibilities in the “New Testament” when we read it with an open mind. I’ll check back form time to time in case someone wants to dialogue.
Shalom
August 1st, 2010 @ 10:09 pm
Lewis: If I hear the words, “fell at his feet as dead” Rev. 1:17 it sounds very similiar to falling without the use of facilties, otherwise falling with the use of facilties is not falling as dead. So most likely Yochanan/John lost the use of his body. As far as standing in His presence, both being on the ground or standing a…re permitted, and sometimes caused, depending on what is desired by Eloheem/God.
Notice Daniel was awake, lost strength, then heard the words, then fell asleep that is a form of being as dead. Then strength was given when the hand touched which caused Daniel to be lifted up. “Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me:for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength. Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground. And, beho…ld, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands.
Daniel 10:8-10″
Eeyob/Job shows an ex. of shaking as a result of El/God, in this case seemingly the fear of HaYah/The Lord from His Ruach/Spirit, there can be different reasons for shaking in His will. “Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake. Eeyob/Job 4:14″
Someone can quake or shake in the will of El/God. “And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves. Daniel 10:7″ Sometimes the Ruach/Spirit causes that activity, notice those that fled from Daniel, seemingly because of their quaking, their could include Daniel.
Another way to know the truth of this is “As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. Yochanan/John 18:6″ This scr. is about judgment, but in effect we are all judged since we must die in order to live through Messiah, also this falling can happen in other ways.
August 1st, 2010 @ 10:12 pm
Lewis: Speaking in different languages shouldn’t be forbidden as scriptures say, but brother Paul shared that if there is no interpreter then they should speak to themselves and Eloheem/God.
August 1st, 2010 @ 10:22 pm
Trances in Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the Christ are in His Ruach/Spirit. Brother Peter went into a trance, and so did others.
August 1st, 2010 @ 11:40 pm
Dangerous Bo,
Don’t forget you can always call in to share your views for discussion on the air. You know I strongly differ with your position, but I do appreciate you taking the time to post so diligently. That being said, it appears that, for the most part, the subject is “talked out” here in the forum and, until I do some online debates on the subject and bring in some new readers through it, there’s not a whole lot new to discuss.
But again, a call to the Line of Fire is the best way to hear and be heard.
August 2nd, 2010 @ 1:04 am
Dangerous Bo, I really appreciate your recognition & zeal of the importance of Torah, as I to very much love Torah, and try to apply the relevant parts to my life. With that said, let us consider David in the Tanach loved Torah too, yet He ate what is not lawful for him to eat(the showbread(presencebread)) according to Torah. He went against Torah in that sense, but it was Eloheem/God’s will for Him to do that, so in essence since it was Eloheem/God’s will He didn’t sin against Eloheem/God, He went according to the leading of the Ruach/Spirit. So also the time that Messiah had His disciples gather food on the Shabbat/Sabbath didn’t have a transgress the Torah either, even though it is against the Torah. Why would that be the case? There are two things taking place here, one is obedience to Torah, and the other is obedience to the rest of the prophets. See the prophets reveal more of the will of Eloheem/God for each time period, remember the scr. “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. Amos 3:7″ Yehoshua/Jesus is a prophet who revealed the secrets of Eloheem/God, and His will, in other words the RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit led Him in the way He was to go, and to teach, also then He led the other apostles in the Bereeth Chadasha/N.C. This shows that Eloheem/God can complete Torah, and the prophets in the way He wants too, having people do what He wants them to do in each time period, sometimes doing Torah, and sometimes doing other things, because everyone has done Torah through the Messiah in one way or another, meaning they have discovered Him who justifies all regardless of whether they do the shadow of relevant Torah customs, or not. The idea is everyone that is led by the Ruach/Spirit of Eloheem/God is a child of Eloheem/God, and Eloheem/God can have them do things not only in the way of a Law, but also in a way of eternal life. Eternal life is Eloheem/God, and He wrote the Torah, and does His Torah in the way He wants, and establishes it when He wants. So we see information about restoration of all things. Also when considering the ark of the Covenant of Moshe/Moses we see the mercy seat is above the law that was underneath. So then the law is important to Eloheem/God, but He is above His own law, He establishes His chesed(mercy, righteous judgement, justice, kindness, and love) in the way He wants. He is above the Torah, and therefore can lead people to walk in that say way, the eternal life way. “But now we are delivered from the Torah(law), that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit(Spirit), and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6″ “Who also has made us able ministers of the Brit Chadasha(new testament); not of the letter, but of the spirit(Spirit): for the letter kills, but the Ruach(spirit, Spirit) gives life. 2 Cor. 3:6″
You see in essence we are supposed to be in HaYah/The Lord on the mercy seat, and He in us, He is really the Word, so we are over the Torah/Law the letter, and just like HaYah/The Lord chooses to accomplish different ways by being above Torah, because He is Ruach/Spirit, also to accomplish Torah we do that to in Messiah, and Messiah said He is in Yah/Lord and Eloheem/God of all, so we are too. “For he has made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor. 5:21″ Notice we are to “…be made the righteousness of Eloheem(God) in Him”, the Him is Meshiach Yehoshua HaYahuweh/Christ Jesus the Lord. So since Eloheem/God is above His Torah it means different things, One He does things in the way that He wants, and another is He establishes all of His Word in the way He wants, another is He establishes Torah in the way He wants. So also we see another aspect of what Messiah taught by being led by Eloheem/God, and going according to the prophets, He taught people to not try to hurt physically in a physical means any of their enemies, rather to love them, and baruk/bless them. Notice Messiah says don’t do the eye for an eye anymore, or the others that are listed. “Ye have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Matt. 5:38-42″
August 2nd, 2010 @ 12:25 pm
Tr.,
The Pharisees had a habit of accusing Y’Shua and His disciples of breaking Torah when in fact they were only breaking the oral law/commandments of men. This is another case in point:
Matthew 12
1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
If the disciples would have been violating Torah, as the Pharisees accused them, Y’Shua would not have said that they were guiltless. There is nothing in the Torah that forbids popping a bit of grain in ones mouth. They were not harvesting or cooking. They were guiltless because they were not transgressing the law. The priests, on the other hand, were blameless. There is a difference. The priests, were commanded to do work on the Shabbat, and so they were blameless for doing things that others could not do on the Shabbat.
As I am sure you know, the Torah prescribes letting the land have a Sabbath. On those years it is not lawful to harvest grain from ones field, but it is lawful to eat the grain from the field. So we see the principle that to eat from the field is not harvesting and is not a violation of the seven year Sabbath or the weekly Sabbath.
There is also a law that allows for eating from a field that is not ones own, while passing through, but it is unlawful to “put the sickle to thy neighbor’s” grain. So the disciples were not stealing either.
I see your analogy about the mercy seat being above the law, but I do not agree that it is OK to break the law. YHWH does have mercy upon us but there are very few extenuating circumstances that would be cause for violating Torah. One could make the case for EMT’s and doctors being exempt on Sabbath, but what if every one kept the Sabbath…there would be very, very few accidents to respond to. So the exception is multiplied many, many times by the violation of Torah in the first place.
If ones animal falls in a pit it is good to work to get it out on the Sabbath, but according to Torah we are supposed to cover pits so that this kind of thing doesn’t happen on any day, let alone on Sabbath. It would seem that the violation of Torah should be very seldom necessary, but the modern Christian view makes it very commonplace. Truly, the commandments of men have made YHWH’s Torah of none effect. Lawlessness is increasing as our love grows colder and colder. As both the NT and OT teach, real love for YHWH is shown in keeping His commandments. The habit of violating Torah is proof, according to John, that we do not know YHWH.
If I am zealous for Torah, it is not for Torah in and of itself. I am zealous for loving YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind , and strength and our neighbors as ourselves. This makes knowing and keeping Torah important as Torah is YHWH’s instruction book on what love is.
Messiah loved His father and us by completely adhering to Torah. He also taught us to lay down our lives for one another. Maybe dying to our own idea of love/commandments of men and living by EVERY WORD that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth is true love.
Shalom
August 2nd, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
So the fact that the instruction in the Torah stated for not gathering food on the Shabbat is oral law? No, it is Torah, it is in the Torah, and a part of the commands. People according to the letter of Torah are not to gather food on Shabbat/Sabbath. So we can see Messiah was led by HaRuach(The Spirit, Wind, Breath), and the Wind goes where He wants to go, and leads in the way He wants to lead as instructed. Messiah did do Torah, even in more than one way, but He also did the prophets, because both must be completed. Since He is the Meshiach(Christ, Anointed One), He is led by Eloheem/God in the way Eloheem/God desires, and He leads His people in the way Eloheem/God desires, sometimes doing Torah, and sometimes doing the prophets. The letter of all of the Word works with the Ruach/Spirit, so the combination of the two bring into the perfect will of Eloheem/God.
August 2nd, 2010 @ 3:23 pm
Tr.,
I believe that you are referring to the command to gather manna on 6 days but not to gather or cook it on Sabbath. Correct?
First, the disciples were not gathering and/or carrying even a meals worth of grain, but simply eating a bit as they went. They might not have had even enough grain in their hands at one time to equal a slice of bread. No burden carrying or gathering or harvesting or cooking was involved.
Second, Messiah said that they were guiltless not forgiven for breaking Torah.
Third, the Pharisees had many added rules that the disciples were in violation of. As we see throughout the Gospels, the Pharisees were always accusing them for breaking these rules. It is likely the same here.
Fourth, it is not forbidden work to lift your slice of bread and eat it on Sabbath. If the disciples were just reaching down to waist level and putting grain in their mouths, what is the significant difference?
I would rather believe Messiah that they were guiltless (no Torah violation involved) than believe the Pharisees accusations which are seen to be in error throughout the Gospels.
Shalom
August 2nd, 2010 @ 6:14 pm
The manna had to be gather on the sixth day, before the Shabbat. Yah showed it was not His will in Torah for them to so much as go outside to get manna, which can be understood for any food too. He didn’t provide them the opportunity to gather, or get any manna on the Shabbot, so the disciples that went outside to get the food were going against Torah, and still were blameless. “Or have you not read in the law, how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Matt. 12:5″ This is an example of doing something against Torah, but still being blameless, in other words not sinning, rather, doing as the Ruach/Spirit leads to do.
August 2nd, 2010 @ 6:22 pm
Doing Torah can be done in different ways, meaning the obedient way of doing Torah, and the way of when Eloheem/God said He would go against the people if they turned away from Him. Messiah was doing both in His life, because of different reasons, one was to establish something better, and another was because of the disobedience of Yisrael/Israel. When Eloheem/God chose to establish different Covenants He did so at least for two reasons, to establish something better, and to punish the disobedient. That is also what Yahuweh did through Messiah to establish a better Covenant, and because of the disobedience of His people. “But now has he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better Covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6″
August 2nd, 2010 @ 7:38 pm
Tr.,
I think that you are reading things into the scripture that it does not say. Messiah could not be a sinless sacrifice if He did not live the Torah perfectly. If He taught us not to do even the least commandment then he not only becomes least in the kingdom but we do not have a savior. (Mat. 5:19) The Holy Spirit cannot lead us to sin. Transgressing the Torah is sin. It is the carnal mind that cannot submit to Torah. The Spirit causes us to fulfill the Torah.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The disciples did not leave their dwellings to gather food to cook. They were on their way to assemble for a holy convocation and were snacking on the way. If you cannot see this, so be it.
Shalom
August 3rd, 2010 @ 1:21 am
Brother, here is a part of the scr. you said. Romans 8:4
4 That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Now if all of the Torah needs to be done by us to be righteous, then you would be saying to me, that the eye for an eye, and tooth for a tooth, and the other parts of physical violence must still be done? So are you saying it is ok for physically hurt other people through physical means?
Also if the righteousness of Torah is about obeying all Torah then you would need to do physical animal sacrifices right now to be perfect, but we know it is not the will of Eloheem/God at this time for animal sacrifices. That will be an acceptable practice in the 1,000 year reign, and not before. Jews that don’t believe in Messiah don’t serve Messiah, they serve their own agenda, and satan. The individuals that believe in Messiah and serve and love Him, can offer an acceptable Levitical animal sacrifice in the 1,000 year reign.
Messiah established a different better Covenant.
“For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. Hebrews 8:7″ Notice the context, the second being referred to is Messiah’s Covenant, the Covenant that Moshe/Moses established did have fault, because it was a shadow of the true substance. “For the Torah(law) having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Hebrews 10:1″ Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the Messiah is the very image, and the good things to come. “And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the Torah(law) of Moshe(Moses). Acts 13:39″ “And the Torah(law) is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them. Meshiach(Christ) hath redeemed us from the curse of the Torah(law), being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:12-13″ This means what it says, the things in Torah that brought curses are destroyed by Messiah, He destroyed them, that means different things, one is the curses that were pronounced for disobedience are destroyed, and another is the curses that would have resulted from not doing Torah have been destroyed. Messiah is the spiritual Word, and from Messiah came the created natural Word, so the spiritual is more important than the natural, and decides the meaning of the natural. The natural Word is everything that is the letter written, the spiritual Word is Him, and Him deciding which parts of His letter He will do next. The letter is useful, and a blessing, but Yahuweh Yehoshua Messiah/Lord Jesus Christ decides which part is going to happen now, and in the future. So we are led by Him in the way He wants, and not by just considering certain parts of the letter.
August 3rd, 2010 @ 1:54 am
This next scr. shows the righteousness of Torah is different than just keeping all of Torah, even physical circumcision is a part of keeping Torah, but here we see people can keep the righteousness of Torah without being physically circumsized. “Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the Torah(law), shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Romans 2:26″ That being said the righteousness of Torah has to do with being led by Eloheem/God, and Him teaching us. “That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:4″ “But now the righteousness of Eloheem(God) without the Torah(law) is manifested, being witnessed by the Torah(law) and the prophets Romans 3:21″ There is a difference between just doing the letter of what Torah says, and doing what the Ruach/Spirit leads to do, the Ruach/Spirit leads to consider Torah, and the prophets. Now we can understand David was a prophet, and He was led by Eloheem/God in the Tanach(O.C.) to eat the showbread(presence bread), but that was against Torah for Him to do, so that means He was doing that prophetically even if He didn’t know that was a prophetic action. Eloheem/God didn’t condemn Him for the action, because Eloheem/God provided the way for Him to consider both the Torah, and the prophets. Messiah considered both the Torah and prophets too, and did what was relevant in how RuachHakodesh lead Him, also Messiah prepared the way for more of the full leading of RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit, so that more of Eloheem/God’s perfect will would be able to be done, the curtain was destroyed so that we could, and would not only being able to go into the blessings that are in the Most Kadosh/Holy place on earth, but to go past those blessings, even into more blessings in the Most Kadosh/Holy place in shamayim/heaven. “RuachHakodesh(The Holy Spirit) this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Hebrews 9:8″ “But Meshiach(Christ) being come an high kohen(priest) of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Hebrews 9:11″ “For Meshiach(Christ) is not entered into the kadosh(holy) places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Eloheem(God) for us: Hebrews 9:24″ Notice Messiah past the One made with hands, to go to what is perfect, and more of a blessing the tabernacle in shamayim/heaven itself. We too go past the one made with hands, and enter into the shamayim/heaven tabernacle to be with Eloheem/God in His perfect will. “And if ye be Messiah’s(Christ’s), then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal. 3:29″ “And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. Romans 4:12″ That means people can be righteous as long as they have the faith of Abraham, in other words they are led by Eloheem Ruach/God’s Spirit. “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the Torah(law), but through the righteousness of faith. Romans 4:13″ “Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the Torah(law), but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, Romans 4:16″
August 3rd, 2010 @ 10:10 am
Tr.,
If you haven’t already, please read posts 65,66 & 67 above. This will help you better understand my position.
You wrote:
“Brother, here is a part of the scr. you said. Romans 8:4
4 That the righteousness of the Torah(law) might be fulfilled in us,
who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Now if all of the Torah needs to be done by us to be righteous, then
you would be saying to me, that the eye for an eye, and tooth for a
tooth, and the other parts of physical violence must still be done?
So are you saying it is ok for physically hurt other people through
physical means?”
I think you misunderstand the “eye for eye…” passages if you think that Torah approves personal revenge.(Ex.21:24; Le. 24:20; De.19:21; Le.19:18)
These passages are in the context of a civil/criminal justice system with judges, witnesses and evidence. The idea is that the punishment must fit the crime and that restitution be made to a damaged party. Beyond this, it is stated that this legal concept would cause Israel to be careful to not bear false witness. In Matthew 5 it seems that Y’Shua was addressing what was commonly “said” about getting even and not on what was written in Torah. Also, Y’Shua could be saying that we should not have to be made to do what is right by the court and that we should give more than is required. This does not negate the court or the just ruling in a restitution case. Either way He upholds Torah’s standards. He does not change or eliminate the YHWH’s instructions.
I am not saying that all we have to do to be righteous is to keep Torah. This would be self righteousness. I am saying exactly what the scriptures say. Those that are righteous do righteousness. The Spirit causes us to keep the righteousness of the Torah. The Carnal mind cannot subject itself to YHWH’s Torah. If we find ourselves fighting against keeping Torah, we are being carnally minded instead of walking in the Spirit.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
It is simply stated above in 1 John…breaking the Torah is sin…a truly righteous person will do righteousness…if we continue to live a Torah breaking lifestyle we are of the devil. Y’Shua was manifested to take away our sins not to, by His Spirit, lead us to break Torah (sin).
Shalom
August 3rd, 2010 @ 12:57 pm
Please answer me this brother Bo. How come Yah instructed them in Shemot 16:29 to not go out of their homes, when considering they didn’t go to get food?
“See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Shemot/Ex. 16:29″
August 3rd, 2010 @ 1:08 pm
Brother Bo, do you believe if someone carried something heavy on the Shabbat that it constitues work, and shouldn’t be done on Shabbat? For example if someone carried a table, or picked up a sofa, ect. I do believe that is considered to be work, especially if they move those things from one house to another. What do you think?
August 3rd, 2010 @ 1:30 pm
Cont. Brother Bo, do you believe that picking up stones, or sticks, or is against what the Torah said to do on the Shabbot?
August 3rd, 2010 @ 2:54 pm
Tr.,
Concerning the latest questions…I accept what the Torah says. As far as intricacies about moving certain things or how far one can carry something or what distance one may travel I know that Messiah did not overstep the boundaries of Torah or teach others to go beyond what Torah teaches. I believe that He lived and taught even the least of the commandments as it says in Matthew 5:19 I attempt to do the same.
I do not think that to pick up a stick is breaking Shabbat, but gathering a bunch of sticks and carrying them home is. Baking bread would be prohibited. Lifting a slice of bread to ones mouth is not work, popping grain into ones mouth is not work. Leading ones animals to water is not prohibited. Healing is not prohibited. Running ones business or reaping ones field would be prohibited. Charging for healing on Shabbat would be prohibited.
Do you accept these scriptures?
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin (transgression of the law).
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth (habitually transgresses the law) hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin(habitually transgresses the law) is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Shalom
August 3rd, 2010 @ 4:19 pm
I certainly accept those scr.s.
Please answer what I asked before.
Brother Bo, do you believe if someone carried something heavy on the Shabbat that it constitues work, and shouldn’t be done on Shabbat? For example if someone carried a table, or picked up a sofa, ect. I do believe that is considered to be work, especially if they move those things from one house to another. What do you think?
August 3rd, 2010 @ 4:22 pm
Another part of my last post should be that if someone carries many sticks it would be heavy. So is carrying anything heavy against the will of Eloheem/God on the Shabbat?
August 3rd, 2010 @ 7:13 pm
Tr.,
Just tell me where you are going with this.
I am guessing you are going to bring up the man that Y”Shua told to take up his bed and walk, but I could be wrong. But if I am correct, you must know that his bed was probably no more than a mat and could have been just a bed roll.
Does the violation come at 1 pound or 10 pounds or maybe 100 pounds? Does it come in carrying the item 10 paces or 1000 paces? Does it matter if the two houses are 10 feet apart or 200 feet apart? What scripture will you point to that declares the maximum weight one can carry or distance one can walk on the Sabbath?
So you agree that the Spirit will not lead anyone to sin and that sin is the transgression of the Torah. So, you must agree that the spirit will not lead anyone to transgress the Torah. Right?
Shalom
August 3rd, 2010 @ 8:07 pm
The Torah(law) states this. “See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Shemot/Ex. 16:29″ That means that anyone that goes outside on the Shabbat is not doing this law, everyone is supposed to stay inside except for to go to the Temple, if they go outside for any other reason other than that they are going against this command.
Also if someone goes outside to pick up anything no matter how heavy it is that is work, that is part of the Torah letter of the law. You know how I know that is the Torah/law? Look at this scr.
“Or have you not read in the Torah(law), how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Matt. 12:5″ One thing this is refering to is the kohenim/priests had to do alot of physical work that was righteous in Eloheem/God’s sight in doing that they profaned the Shabbat, because they were supposed to stop working in Shabbat, but there was the other parts of Torah that explained it was necessary for them to profane the Shabbat, and it was even Eloheem/God’s will for them to do it, so they were blameless. The law is very specific, the law is the letter of the law, and the part about them doing the physical difficult labor on Shabbot is the Ruach/Spirit of the Torah. My point is that the Ruach/Spirit leads, in other words whatever Ruach/Spirit wants do it, it is righteous. Sometimes in order to accomplish His will, He goes against one aspect of Torah to establish another aspect of Torah.
According to Torah/law the person who picked up the bed did so against Torah(law) no matter how much it weighed. That is also what is being explained with this scr.
“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. Numbers 15:32-35″ No matter how much the picking up of sticks or anything that is not relevant is wrong according to Law, no matter how much is lawfully wrong to do according to Torah(law). Gather the Manna on Shabbat was wrong to do, no ammount of gather of Manna was allowed according to Torah/law.
Please stop and take a look at David eating the kadosh bread, it was wrong according to Torah/Law, but just like the kohenim/priests profane the Shabbat, and be blameless, so also David could go against Torah/Law and profane that part of Torah, and be blameless. Also Luke 6:1 does show that Messiah was using the Ruach/Spirit of the Torah/Law, it was not proper according to Torah/Law for them to gather on Shabbat, but they were still blameless even though they profaned the Shabbat. “And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing them in their hands. Luke 6:1″
Do you see the David and his men didn’t have a right according to Torah/Law to eat the showbread? They did have a right to do that according the Ruach/Spirit though.
August 3rd, 2010 @ 9:12 pm
Tr.,
You are reading into the passages. There is a context to all you quote. The manna was a very specific incident. He told them to remain in their place because they were going outside the camp to pick up manna. There is not general Torah law to remain in ones house/tent. The word for place is a broad term that is even translated country. The likely meaning is to stay in the camp. With a camp of around 2-3 million people it is quite a walk to get out. He had specifically told them not to gather on the Sabbath. The issue of the sticks is one of presumptuous sin. He was doing something that he knew was wrong. Any spirit that leads us to go against the written word of YHWH is suspect.
It does not say that they were blameless, it says that they were guiltless. NO TORAH VIOLATION! If you want to continue to agree with the Pharisees it is your prerogative. I will agree with Y’Shua that it was not a violation of Shabbat to carry a bed roll or pluck grain and eat it. I will accept His interpretation that there is no violation in walking to synagogue on Sabbath.
Please answer this…Did Y’Shua break the Torah or instruct men to break it?
If He did, He is not Messiah. The spirit of anti-messiah is at work leading people to break Torah. The Spirit of truth always upholds Torah for Y’Shua declared that YHWH’s word is truth and that the Spirit would lead us into all truth. If one thinks otherwise they are deceived into hearing and not doing. Many are deceived into thinking that those that do unrighteousness are righteous by the spirit of error.
The Pharisees accused Y’Shua of breaking Sabbath when he told the man to take up his bed. They also accused him of blasphemy. Do you believe this too? Will the Spirit lead us to blaspheme? Why wouldn’t He if He leads us to break Sabbath? The commandments/ideas/doctrines of men have clouded our thinking so that we agree with the accusations of the Pharisees instead of believing Messiah when He said that He didn’t come to teach against the Torah.
John 5
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 10
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 10
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
They said He broke the Sabbath…they said He blasphemed. I do not believe them. They interpreted the scripture according to their man made doctrines. If we believe them, we are doing the same thing that they did…falsely accusing the innocent. If we really know what “I desired mercy and not sacrifice” means, we would not accuse the Innocent One or the Apostles of breaking the Torah.
Acts 6
11 Then they suborned men, which said, We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses, and against God.
12 And they stirred up the people, and the elders, and the scribes, and came upon him, and caught him, and brought him to the council,
13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
It is false witnesses that say that Y’Shua would change the Torah. It is false witnesses that say that the early believers spoke contrary to the Torah.
I would advise that we not agree with the Scribes and Pharisees and false witnesses. I would advise that we listen to the Spirit that agrees with the Word, not the ones that lead us to violate Torah.
Shalom
August 3rd, 2010 @ 11:19 pm
I am studying the two Torah Hebrew Words in the scr., as they both would shed some light on what is spoken about. The specific one you are talking about with the scr. “See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. Shemot/Ex. 16:29″ The second Hebrew Word for place, can mean a specific place, spaciously, or in a limited capacity. If I am incorrect with my thought of the word specifically in this circumstance to mean staying in the house according to Torah. Then if I am wrong I confess it as a tresspass, and ask for forgiveness for that, but the Word could mean that, there is a possibility that is what the Ruach/Spirit is meaning for that specific instance. I recognize Eloheem/God was being very strict during that time, but it is possible He was not being as strict as I thought He was in that scr.
August 4th, 2010 @ 9:28 am
Tr.,
Keep studying Tr.
Just so you know I don’t leave my property on Shabbat except for very important things, like scripture study, marriages, memorial services. I try to remain in my place and keep the Sabbath Holy and restful. I would not want to end up in an a situation where I would end up working or causing others to work.
Shalom
August 4th, 2010 @ 10:14 am
While I am studying that, I will try to answer the other questions you gave.
“Or have you not read in the Torah(law), how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? Matt. 12:5″ I looked up the Word, and the Word in Greek comes from 338 & means innocent, which can also mean guiltless, and blameless. The Aramaic Peshitta tranlated by George M. Lamsa uses the English blameless. Where do you get the idea that they were guiltless and not blameless?
August 4th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm
Tr.,
When I look at the Greek word “anaitios” (Strongs # 338) for guiltless in Matthew 12:7 and do a search for this Greek word in the Septuagint I find that the Hebrew word “naqiy” (Strongs # 5355) is the equivalent. Here is the definition of “naqiy”:
AV-innocent 31, guiltless 4, quit 2, blameless 2, clean 1, clear 1, exempted 1, free 1, variant 1; 44
1) clean, free from, exempt, clear, innocent
1a) free from guilt, clean, innocent
1b) free from punishment
1c) free or exempt from obligations
2) innocent
The word is usually translated innocent (31 out of 44 times) and guiltless next (4 out of 44 times)
The definition of “anaitios” is:
AV-blameless 1, guiltless 1; 2
1) guiltless, innocent
In one sense we are arguing semantics as blameless, innocent, and guiltless are basically synonyms. I am the one that was trying to make a difference because I thought you were trying to say that the disciples were breaking Torah but were still blameless. I was trying to make the point that they were innocent/guiltless because they were not breaking Torah.
The main reason that I do not think that the disciples were not breaking Torah is because every time the Scribes and Pharisees accuse them or Y’Shua they have their own oral law/commandments of men in view and not the written Torah.
As I have stated before…Y’Shua would not be a perfect sacrifice if He sinned. Transgressing the Torah is sin. Messiah is the greatest in the kingdom. To be the greatest one must do and teach all the commandment down to the least one. If He broke or taught others to break Torah He would be the least in the kingdom. (Mat. 5:19)
Shalom
August 5th, 2010 @ 9:32 am
Please tell me brother, how you do a search in the Septuagint to find the equivalent Hebrew Word?
August 5th, 2010 @ 10:59 am
Tr.,
I have a Bible program called “Online Bible” that has an easy way to do it. I think you can download the basic version of this program for free. It may have this option. It really helps sometimes to get the full flavor of some things in the NT.
Shalom
August 6th, 2010 @ 2:00 am
Thanks for that info.
Let me give you more of what Matt. 12:5 says, bascially a better English translation.
“Or have you not read in the Torah(law), how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane(desecrate, pollute, cross the thresshold, trample) the sabbath, and are innocent(blameless, guiltless, clean)? Matt. 12:5″
This shows that obeying Torah sometimes means we must trample another part of Torah, and as we do that through the leading of the RuachHakodesh(The Holy Spirit) we are blameless.
August 6th, 2010 @ 10:47 am
Tr.,
The priests were keeping Torah when they broke the rules of Shabbat. The people would have to do the same on Passover if it fell on Shabbat as it is work to slaughter and prepare a Lamb. The only thing that can override Torah is another aspect of Torah.
The Spirit will not lead against Torah. The Spirit of truth leads us into all truth. The Torah is truth.
John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
We must worship in Spirit and Truth not one or the other. They go together and do not contradict each other.
John 4
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
YHWH even magnifies His word above His name. It doesn’t matter if He gets a bad reputation by us keeping His word.
Psalm 138
2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Shalom
August 6th, 2010 @ 11:28 am
Dr. Brown,
Do you believe that Jesus spoke mostly Hebrew or Aramaic? And how would that affect the rendering into Greek?
Thanks!
August 6th, 2010 @ 12:35 pm
Blaine,
I answer these questions in my book What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus. In short, Aramaic would have been the primary day to day language; it’s possible that some religious discussions in Jerusalem were carried on in Hebrew. Translation into Greek would not have been largely affected either way. In fact, this article addresses that very question: http://askdrbrown.org/landing_page/resources/Review%20of%20Understanding%20the%20Difficult%20Words%20of%20Jesus%20.htm
August 7th, 2010 @ 12:21 pm
This shows that obeying Torah sometimes means we must trample another part of Torah, and as we do that through the leading of the RuachHakodesh(The Holy Spirit) we are blameless.
Just as the kohenim/priests had to trample over some parts of Torah to be righteous, so also Messiah(The Anointed One) had to trample over some areas of Torah to show forth what is the substance, in other words what is most important, the righteousness of Torah. As a matter of fact the substance is Messiah(Christ), and following Him, and abiding in Him, which may or may not involve doing areas of shadow. “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Messiah(Christ). Colossians 2:16-17″ Notice Messiah is the substance in other words provides the leading, and we must follow Him, sometimes He choses to use shadow, and sometimes he doesn’t. It depends on what He is doing, and what the leading of RuachHakodoesh/The Holy Spirit is. Messiah is the substance of Shabbat(Sabbath), and the shadow of Shabbat is the natural Seventh day. Physical is inferior to the spiritual, The spiritual is the reality more so than the physical. So true Jews are in the Spiritual, whether they are in the natural or not, the determining most important factor is the Spiritual. True for Messiah too, He is The Most important Spiritual Jew, before He manifested in the flesh as a physical Jew. Notice the spiritual is most important, but the natural also does provide blessings.
August 7th, 2010 @ 10:39 pm
Tr.,
The Spirit (spiritual) does not contradict the Torah (physical). Messiah is a blemished lamb if he broke Torah.
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Messiah said to do both the spiritual and the physical, not to fail at one to do the other. He would be a hypocrite if he taught the Pharisees to do both but didn’t do what He taught. He came to fulfill Torah not trample it.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
It is hypocrisy to do the physical without the spiritual. It is gnosticism or mysticism to try to do the spiritual without the physical.
Real things have shadows. If there is light, there is a shadow cast by the real thing and it is attached to the real. If there is light and an object doesn’t cast a shadow, it is not real. If we are in the dark then there are no shadows. If we are in the dark we do not correctly perceive the real thing if we can find it at all.
Shalom
August 9th, 2010 @ 2:37 am
Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
One thing to get from that scr. is that the weighter matters of the Torah(Law) are more important to Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the Christ than the other matters of Torah. In this scr. He mentioned the part of Torah(law) that is the most important, righteous judgement, mercy, faith, distinquishing them from the lesser portion of the tithe. As a matter of fact the weighter portion of Torah(Law) is Messiah since He is chesed(righteous judgement, mercy,) and faith. Messiah and following Him corresponds to the relevant part of Torah, that the priests had to do in Matt. 12:5.
In other words basically the kohenim/priests who did the sacrificial system were doing the more weighty portion for them at that time, it took precedence over the less important part of Torah in their case the not working on Shabbat. “Or have you not read in the Torah(law), how that on the Shabbat(sabbath) days the priests in the temple profane(desecrate, pollute, cross the thresshold, trample) the sabbath, and are innocent(blameless, guiltless, clean)? Matt. 12:5″
The weighter part of Torah always takes precendence over the not as important part of Torah. Messiah(He is righteous judgment, mercy, kindness, love, and faith) is the weighter part of Torah that must be experienced, and known, He is the way, truth, and life. The lesser part of Torah is also a blessing.
For example Messiah spiritually before He was even born in Mary existed spiritually, and had victory, then He was put into flesh, as a physical Israelite, and a physical Jew from the tribe of Yehudah/Judah. The spiritual existence of Him was more important than the physical manifestation, but the physical manifestation was also very important. The spiritual existence of Him can be thought of as being the prophets, and the physical manifestation of Him, can be thought of as the Torah(Law). The prophets represent what the RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit is chosing to do, the Torah/Law represents a concrete action that has truth, but is limited in full understanding. So the Torah/Law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Messiah(The full understanding). The Messiah is the static understanding of Torah, but also has something more, and better than just the limited understanding of what Torah is, in other words Messiah is Torah, in the way of expressing what is meant by Torah. He the Torah is the dynamic Torah, that is Torah, but is also prophets.
Brother Bo, what you are saying is very valuable, the shadow does work along with the substance, but the substance can exist without shadow. My point is to say that He is the way, truth, and life, and sometimes He leads to do the shadow, and other times not, since He is the substance, He gets to chose, and we must listen to what His desires are. Part of listening is recognizing all of the way, and not just a part of it. He will cause the substance to be the most important part, but as we recognize that most important part then we recognize also the less important part that is still important. Notice the less important part is important, and does have profit that we experience by that important part.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Messiah is substance, and other areas are shadow. Messiah is substance, and He is a consuming fire, substance=fire. Eloheem/God is a consuming fire, and when looking at the Tanach/O.C, we see the the fire by night, and the cloud by day. The shadow=cloud, so when both are combined correctly, then the full blessing happens, to the point of defeating the last enemy which is death.
August 9th, 2010 @ 11:06 am
TR.,
You wrote:
“Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay
tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone.
One thing to get from that scr. is that the weighter matters of the
Torah(Law) are more important to Yehoshua HaMeshiach/Jesus the
Christ than the other matters of Torah.”
It is true that this is “one thing” to get from this passage, but the thing that is being said directly is to do both the weightier and the less weighty. Both are weighty. He does not say to do the one instead of the other. He does not say to do the one and not be concerned with the other.
You wrote:
“My point is to say that He is the way, truth, and life, and sometimes
He leads to do the shadow, and other times not, since He is the
substance, He gets to chose, and we must listen to what His desires are.”
He gets to choose and He already chose by saying to do both. If we do not listen to his desires that He has plainly stated in the scripture quoted above we will be deceived into listening to a false spirit of lawlessness. If we won’t hear Moses and the prophets we will not hear Him telling us to obey YHWH’s Torah either.
Luke 16
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Shalom
August 10th, 2010 @ 8:34 am
Please read all this is complex.
“Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay
tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone.
The weighter part of Torah always takes precendence over the not as important part of Torah. Messiah(He is righteous judgment, mercy, kindness, love, and aman(faith, trust, faithfulness, emunah(virtue)) is the weighter part of Torah that must be experienced, and known, He is the way, truth, and life. Colossians 2:16-17 works with what I just said. “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col. 2:16-17″ Meshiach/Christ is the body, and the weighter matters of Torah/Law, that must be embraced, and followed. Messiah said the body/substance must be done before the other parts are done, in order for people to be accepted.
That is why those that didn’t do Torah customs didn’t have to start doing Torah customs that are in the shadow. “Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Acts 15:19-21″
When Messiah talked about Matt. 23:23 He couldn’t tell the people to stop doing tithing which is a part of Torah, so He was led by Eloheem/God to prepare the new, and better way, of establishing the provision that He supplies, He words show a spiritual understanding, of freedom, being established in the fullness of RuachHakodesh/The Holy Spirit. “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Colossians 2:14″ So in that freedom that He brought, both those that do Torah, and those that don’t can be more blessed than before, as long as they walk in Messiah(He is righteous judgment, mercy, kindness, love, and aman(faith, trust, faithfulness, emunah(virtue)) the more weighter matters of Torah/Law. Now Messiah did show more of His perfect way, of establishing His will, through Matt. 23:23, in recognizing that the shadow(less important, not as weighty matters of Torah/Law)) are still a blessing, and important.
I have explained Eloheem/God is a consuming fire, and that speaks also of the more weighter matters of Torah. The cloud that we see in the Tanach/O.C. is the shadow that is spoken of, and has blessings from Eloheem/God, but that cloud is lesser kavod/glory, yet He personally is a consuming fire(greater Kavod/glory). The cloud comes from Him, but He is a consuming fire. That tells us different things. The Consuming fire is the body(the substance) even Messiah, but the cloud is His shadow it is less than the fullness of who He is.
The cloud(shadow)
That shadow is passing away, even though it is still a blessing. Col 2:16-17.
“In that he saith, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13″ “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Hebrews 9:14″ “Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Hebrews 10:9″ “But now we are delivered from the Torah(law), that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of Ruach(Spirit), and not in the oldness of the letter. Romans 7:6″ “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the Torah(law). Hebrews 7:12″ “For the Torah(law) made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto Eloheem(God). Hebrews 7:19″ In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13″ The kavod/glory of Moshe was a glory that fades away in other words the cloud(shadow, the lesser kavod/glory), but the kavod/glory of Messiah is the fire(body, Messiah, greater glory). That is why after the 1,000 year reign there will not be a Temple as the scr. states. “And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. Rev. 21:22″ The physical building Temple is a part of the shadow(less important) part, Messiah HaYah(Christ The Lord) is the most important part(the substance, body).
Now again considering Matt. 23:23 Messiah did make a point that the less important part, not as weighy part, is still important, and a blessing, that represents all Torah(Law). Torah(Law) of the letter is important in various ways. One of the ways is that Messiah did come to establish all of the Torah/Law that still needs to be established. That is why He said. “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah(law), till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:18″ “Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah(law), or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matt. 5:17″ When thinking about that last scr. we need to realize, both Torah(Law), and prophets are mentioned, which cause more understanding of what can be done, and what will be done.
During these last times, the combination of doing as Messiah instructed in Matt. 23:23 will happen. What I am talking about is the correct combination and interconnecting of doing the weighter part, and abiding in Him, and doing the lesser part of shadow, which is also a part of Him, but is a lesser kavod/glory.
August 10th, 2010 @ 10:55 am
Tr.,
There will almost never be a contradiction between the weightier and the weighty matters of the law. There are some things in the law that cannot be done right now because of providence, though.
We cannot tithe in a scriptural way because there is no Levitical priesthood and temple operating. We can still give to the poor and help the widow and orphan. The weightier matter of being generous is behind both of these things and does not stop us from doing either. It is the lack of a Levitical priesthood that keeps us from doing the one weighty matter, not a weightier matter that stops us.
We cannot offer a lamb at the gate of the temple in Jerusalem for Passover, not because there is a weightier matter that prevents us but because there is no temple in Jerusalem. We can still keep Passover.
The Ten commandments are all possible to do. There is no weightier matter that would preclude us for keeping them. There is no weightier matter that would hold us back from keeping Sabbath. There is no weightier matter that would stop us from celebrating the new moon or the feasts of YHWH. We mostly do not do these things because our culture does not operate on YHWH’s calendar. We are enslaved to our jobs and bosses and have entered into an agreement to work on days that YHWH tells us not to work on. We are snared by the words of our mouth, not stopped from doing YHWH’s Torah by some weightier matter in Torah. Maybe keeping our word and swearing to our own hurt is a weightier matter, but we should never have made promises that would stop us from keeping YHWH’s word.
James 4
13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.
We should not have gone into debt so that we now have to work on YHWH’s Shabbats to pay the bills. It is our failing to keep Torah’s principles that has put us in the position to have to break YHWH’s Torah, not some weightier matter. Our sin has us in bondage to so that we cannot keep Torah. When we are made free from sin we can keep Torah and YHWH’s Spirit gives us the power to do so.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So, you see that the Spirit leads us to keep Torah and our sinful flesh keeps us from submitting to the Torah. Our unrenewed minds fight the idea of keeping Torah.
If we love Him we keep His commandments. Real love is shown by keeping His commandments. Any spirit that would lead us to not keep His YHWH’s Torah is a false spirit.
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
We need to keep YHWH’s commandments and have the Testimony/faith of Y’Shua, not one or the other. They do not contradict each other. They work together in those that love YHWH and follow the Lamb wherever He goes. Worshiping in spirit and in truth is the correct way; having one nullify the other is a false way.
The book of Hebrews shows how the Levitical Priesthood would be vanishing away…and it did, at least for now. It shows us that the new covenant will be one where YHWH’s Torah will be written on our hearts instead of on stone. We will want to do it. We won’t need the priesthood to teach us, as the Spirit will teach us how to do Torah. The new and living way is having our sins forgiven and keeping YHWH’s commandments because we love Him and having His Spirit lead us into all truth.
It is not the weightier matters of Torah that stop us from keeping the weighty matters…it is our sinful, fleshly mind and our lustful lifestyle.
Shalom
August 11th, 2010 @ 1:49 pm
Brother in Messiah you wrote:
I think you misunderstand the “eye for eye…” passages if you think that Torah approves personal revenge.(Ex.21:24; Le. 24:20; De.19:21; Le.19:18)
These passages are in the context of a civil/criminal justice system with judges, witnesses and evidence. The idea is that the punishment must fit the crime and that restitution be made to a damaged party. Beyond this, it is stated that this legal concept would cause Israel to be careful to not bear false witness. In Matthew 5 it seems that Y’Shua was addressing what was commonly “said” about getting even and not on what was written in Torah. Also, Y’Shua could be saying that we should not have to be made to do what is right by the court and that we should give more than is required. This does not negate the court or the just ruling in a restitution case. Either way He upholds Torah’s standards. He does not change or eliminate the YHWH’s instructions.
Matt. 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”
This scr. shows it is applicable all the time, people that serve HaYah/The Lord correctly will not ever be allowed to physically hurt other people through physical means, if they do it is against the weighter part of Torah/Law.
August 11th, 2010 @ 2:01 pm
Brother in Messiah you said: Please answer this…Did Y’Shua break the Torah or instruct men to break it?
If He did, He is not Messiah. The spirit of anti-messiah is at work leading people to break Torah. The Spirit of truth always upholds Torah for Y’Shua declared that YHWH’s word is truth and that the Spirit would lead us into all truth.
I say: Messiah didn’t go against the requirements that Eloheem/God was desiring at that time, in other words the righteous requirement. For example the kohenim/priests went against Shabbat, and where blameless. Likewise David went against the Torah by eating the showbread, and He too was innocent. The Ruach/Spirit of truth considers all truth, not solely the Torah, He also considers other truth like the prophets. The Spirit of truth does exactly what is supposed to be done, because He listens to the Ab/Father, likewise Messiah listened to the Father. Those that are led by RuachHakodesh are like the wind, we don’t know where the wind is going, the wind can change directions.
August 11th, 2010 @ 6:54 pm
Tr.,
You have a very interesting view of this. If the laws of nature were like this we would never know if we could count on gravity working or not. If this is the way YHWH actually does things, we have an unjust judge making rulings. He would be arbitrary and capricious in His dealings with each of us and be a respecter of persons, because we each would have a different standard to live by. The Torah instructs us not to do this sort of thing, so why do you think that YHWH would act this way?
Evidently you do not see that the reason for some aspects of Torah being temporarily suspended is because of the lack of a Levitical priesthood and temple/alter. There is nothing that prevents us from keeping Shabbat and Feast days. There is nothing that would prevent us form abstaining from adultery or theft.
Do you really think that YWHW might tell us to commit adultery? Do you really think that YHWH might ask us to murder someone? Shabbat is in the same set of 10. They are all equal. He spoke them audibly for all to hear. If He goes back on one he can go back on any of them. Do you think that YHWH asks us to break the others? Would He tell us to worship another Elohim? Would He tell us to make a graven image?
Please answer these questions.
Shalom
August 12th, 2010 @ 8:05 am
Brother Bo, you said:
You have a very interesting view of this. If the laws of nature were like this we would never know if we could count on gravity working or not. If this is the way YHWH actually does things, we have an unjust judge making rulings. He would be arbitrary and capricious in His dealings with each of us and be a respecter of persons, because we each would have a different standard to live by. The Torah instructs us not to do this sort of thing, so why do you think that YHWH would act this way?
I say:
His purposes for doing things are just, whatever reasons He has are just, and righteous. Eloheem/God does different things at different times to accomplish what His perfect will is, and whatever that is, is just. The Messiah has given us the standard, and part of that standard is the curse of Torah is nailed to the cross, so that we can serve Eloheem/God in His Ruach/Spirit. Gal. 3:13 Col. 2:14, another part is to recognize people can be baruk/blessed whether they do the physical shadow(Shabbat,new moon, eating kosher, ect.), or not. Part of the standard is to recognize all truth that is united, so that all of the way is embraced, that is how we have one standard.
Brother Bo you said:
There is nothing that would prevent us form abstaining from adultery or theft.
Do you really think that YWHW might tell us to commit adultery? Do you really think that YHWH might ask us to murder someone? Shabbat is in the same set of 10. They are all equal. He spoke them audibly for all to hear. If He goes back on one he can go back on any of them. Do you think that YHWH asks us to break the others? Would He tell us to worship another Elohim? Would He tell us to make a graven image?
I say:
The new standard talks about the righteous requirements of Torah/Law, that goes along with Torah, & prophets, the two greatest commandments, also part of that standard is to not do any harm to other people. Part of that standard is an exposition on the Ten Commandments. “For this, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Romans 13:9″ The righteous requirements of Torah/Law must still be done, but people that don’t want to do the shadow don’t have to, and they can still be baruk/blessed, but as I have explained some areas of the shadow provide profit, specifically if Eloheem/God desires us to do them.
Believers in Meshiach have more than one way to obey Shabbath/Sabbath, Messiah is our rest, our Shabbat, whether we do the shadow of Shabbath/Sabbath or not. “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col. 2:16-17″ Part of the body means we worship only Eloheem/God.
I have explained Messiah goes further than the Torah in not allowing physically harming other people. Torah allowed it in many instances, Messiah has showed physically harming other people is never correct, all wars using the body, or tools are wrong that are in the physical.
Now we are only allowed to use the armor of righeousness and light. Eloheem/God leads His people to accomplish many different things.
August 13th, 2010 @ 9:02 pm
Tr.,
Shabbat shalom
April 1st, 2011 @ 5:46 pm
christian,
Did you notice that works that we were created to walk in were specified in advance. We are no longer gentiles, but are now grafted into Israel. There is one set of rules. The ones that were before ordained that us former gentiles should walk in are the same ones that YHHW gave to Israel.
Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:…
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
The once foreigners that are now fellowcitizens with the saints (Israelites) have the same set of kingdom rules.
Matthew 5
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We know for sure that those that do not keep YHWH’s commandments (the lawless, i.e. the ones that pay no attention to Torah) will not get to eat of the tree of life/inherit eternal life. Those that neglect even the smallest commandment will be relegated to being least in the kingdom. Those that keep and teach all of YHWH’s commandments will be great in the kingdom.
The kingdom of heaven is not about going to heaven. It is about ruling and reigning with Messiah…being a royal priesthood and a holy nation. YHWH’s requirements for holiness (being saints) are found in Torah…the before ordained works that we are to walk in. Without holiness no one will see YHWH.
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
We are not truly loving YHWH or our brother/neighbor if we are not keeping YHHW’s commandments.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. The real New Covenant is supposed to write YHWH’s Torah on our hearts and mind.
Hebrews 8
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
The New Covenant is a relationship with YHWH that is so consuming that we desire to keep His commandments. We love His law. We purify ourselves as He is pure. We be holy as He is holy. We become commandment keepers instead of only being hearers of the word. It is having the faith of Y’shua and keeping YHWH’s commandments.
We are not participating in the New Covenant if we do not have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. They are not grievous to those that have real love for YHWH and His children. And please notice that the New Covenant is to Israel. We must be grafted in to partake. There is only one law for the strangers and the home born.
Shalom
May 25th, 2011 @ 4:09 pm
Dr Brown:
Will you still be having the discussion with the FFOZ guys regarding Torah observance? I think you mentioned that during this program?
Thanks!
May 25th, 2011 @ 4:29 pm
Yoo Hoo, at some point in the future, yes, surely. I think it would be a very helpful conversation.