It’s The Annual Christmas Debate!
December 19, 2011 | 351 Comments
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Today is a special, caller-driven day on the Line of Fire! We are asking all people who are passionate on one side or the other about whether or not to celebrate Christmas to call in and share their views! So instead of just sending us emails and links, call and share them with everyone! This is sure to be a lively show!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Number One: Whatever you do, do it for the glory of God. Number Two: Be fully convinced in your own heart and mind about what you do. Number Three: Don’t get caught up with the spirit of the world, whatever you do. Number Four: If you choose NOT to celebrate Christmas during this time of the year, glorify Jesus in an appropriate way, so that you add, rather than take away.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Whatever you do or don’t do with Christmas, let us stand back in awe and recognize that God sent His Son into the world to save us from our filth, sin, and destruction, to take our place, so that we might join with Him forever! Joy to the World!
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Other Resources:
Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions; and Shares Thoughts on India and Christmas
Should Followers of Jesus Celebrate Christmas? The Annual Line of Fire Debate
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December 19th, 2011 @ 8:42 am
I hate that I won’t catch this one live! Oh well, I have a feeling it’s going to be a mighty long thread…
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:23 am
Why do you say that?
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:27 am
hee hee
Gird your loins, Bo!
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:28 am
Is that an ok expression to use–I might have just embarassed myself….oh dear…
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:30 am
Let’s start with a song
A Christian Day?
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Nimrod’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day. (Exo. 34:11-16))
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Dagon’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day.
Going with the flow
In a pagan sort of way.
To the malls we go
Not on the narrow way.
Baals on every thing. (Hos. 2:16-17)
We think we’re really bright.
What fun it is to laugh and sin
Not caring what is right. (Mat. 10:38-39)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Krishna’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day. (Jer. 10:2-5)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Bacchus’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day.
My pagan relatives…
What will they think of me
If I don’t go along
With Churchianity? (Mat. 10:5-37)
Traditions of mere men,
Replacing scripture’s rules. (Mat. 15:8-9)
But, what could be the lasting harm
Of joining in with fools. (Prov. 13:20)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Vishnu’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day. (Luk. 12:15-21)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Zeus’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day.
Though almost everything,
In Xmas is from Baal, (Jer. 23:25-27)
They have been redeemed…
Now, they’re not from hell. (Deu. 12:30-32)
I have been set free,
And now can celebrate,
The pagan days and rituals
My lusts to satiate. (1 Joh. 2:15-17)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Mithra’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day. (Deu. 29:17-20)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Diana’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day.
Now, do not bother me,
With scripture quotes and facts. (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
I will not change my mind.
I follow culture’s tracks. (Pro. 16:25)
The wide road is so smooth. (Mat. 7:13)
What bliss and peace it hath. (Mat. 10:34)
Why should I miss all the fun,
Trav’ling the narrow path. (Mat. 7:14)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle the Pope’s way.
Worshiping in vanity, (Mar. 7:7-9)
Keeping a “Christian day”? (Heb. 12:15-17)
Jingle Baals, jingle Baals,
Jingle Antichrist’s way.
O what fun to walk in pride,
And keep a pagan day.
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:34 am
You’ll be more than surprised at what I’m bringing to it this year…you’ll just have to wait until I gather it all together…
And I expect to hear from Ruth–I wonder what she’s been up to.
Ruth?
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:38 am
#4–
Just looked it up and it’s ok–so–game on!
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:47 am
Leviticus 23
Sabbath
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Passover
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S passover.
Unleavened Bread
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Firstfruits
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
Pentecost
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals: they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the LORD.
Trumpets
24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.
Atonement
27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.
30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.
31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Tabernacles
34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
I just didn’t see Xmas on the list that YHWH celebrates.
Deuteronomy 4
2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:55 am
Mark 7
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
doctrines the commandments of men.
I wonder if Y’Shua would say, ” For laying aside the commandments of YHWH (His feasts), ye hold the tradition of men, such as the keeping of Christmas and Sunday: and many other such like things ye do.”…no?
December 19th, 2011 @ 9:56 am
I don’t see Memorial Day or the Fouth of July either, but as a nation we celebrate them.
And I don’t see Hanukkah (spl.?).
I hope you bring reason as well and not just a list of Scriptures. And be nice.
Bo, I’m serious there is something that will absolutely have you pondering the entire debate and how the Lord works…but, I need to prepare it. It took me forever to get my post ready for Rabbi Blumenthal. Please be praying for him and his friends! Please.
December 19th, 2011 @ 10:02 am
Got to run–I’ll drop in this evening and catch up then.
December 19th, 2011 @ 10:38 am
Sheila,
We do not pretend that Memorial day and Independence day are religious celebrations. They are purely cultural and not a mixture of pagan and Biblical ideas like Xmas.
Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
We can have no excuses for making up our own celebrations…especially if they parallel or participate in pagan ignorance. We are to repent from ignorant worship, not revive paganism.
Paul’s Mars hill discourse gives us no room to keep going our own way. YHWH does not wink at ignorance forever. He expects us to grow up and learn what is righteous. He will judge the world in righteousness. Paganism is not righteousness or holiness…no matter how Christianized or canonized it may now seem.
Mark 7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
So let’s take Paul’s advice and repent…we have very little excuse for being ignorant.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 10:52 am
Doesn’t it seem a bit crazy to celebrate the birthday of a man that came from a culture that didn’t celebrate birthdays and never indicated that He wanted us to do so? By a calendar He never used, so that the date changes, on His calendar, by about 10 to 20 days each year? On a date that is almost assuredly not His birthday? With decorated trees and houses? And we give gifts to each other instead of to Him. Is this true religion? Is it worshiping in spirit and in truth?
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:33 am
Bo,
#7 is classic! You should really call in today and get in the discussion.
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:38 am
Dr. Brown,
#7…?
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:42 am
Here is a very popular show about the roots of Christmas and such on Youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pV9-mxcsKY
Watch it and see what you think.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:51 am
Sorry, Bo. I meant #5!
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:56 am
My take:
http://thechifiles.com/2011/12/03/the-christmas-debate/
Hopefully I’ll have a minute to call in later during the show with some other thoughts.
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:59 am
Also this:
http://thechifiles.com/2011/12/17/why-i-observe-christmas/
December 19th, 2011 @ 12:00 pm
Bo,
I’ll plan to watch that video you posted at some point this week – thanks for the resource as to your position’s viewpoint!
December 19th, 2011 @ 12:25 pm
Tom,
Imagine seeing you here
That resource is not my viewpoint. It is something that I found interesting. I express my viewpoint in my own words. Do not put words in my mouth.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 12:26 pm
Dr. Brown,
Did you want me to sing for you on the show?
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 12:43 pm
And YHWH made the sun, moon and stars to indicate instruct us how to be on His time schedule. And we have invented our own time system. On His time schedule, He has appointed holy days that honor His dealings with us. On ours, we invented new holidays that honor Saturn and Mars and the whole host of heaven. We softened Saturnalia and the others somewhat and call them Christian holidays.
We took astrological and pagan ideas and dates and used them to supposedly worship YHWH, even though He instructed us not to do this. Xmas is not of YHWH; it is of man.
Worshiping in spirit and truth is not about man’s ideas. Truth is about subjecting our minds to YHWH’s word. I is about keeping time the way He does, so that we can keep His appointments with us. It is about “to obey is better than sacrifice.” Maybe…there is something of worshiping in spirit in the way Christianity does it’s man made holidays, but the truth is compromised or ignored in them.
Have you noticed that the vast majority of people that keep Xmas are not Bible believing Christians. A lot are Christian in name only. A lot are not Christians at all. Have you ever noticed how many pagans and nominal believers get excited about keeping YHWH’s holy days? Unholy people do not like holy things. People that are supposed to be holy keep getting drawn into the unholy practices of the world. Maybe the pagans should put up sings saying, “Saturn is the reason for the season.” or, “Purify the holy out of Christmas.” or, “Christianity hijacked our holiday.”
We have a few days now to repent before Xmas is forced into our laps. We have the real holy days of Passover and Unleavened Bread coming up in about 4 months. The real new year is just 15 days before that. That is plenty of time to come to an understanding of YHWH’s Holy days, and prepare our hearts and schedules to celebrate them.
YHWH gives us the opportunity to come out of Babylonian worship, and to join Him in celebrating redemption His way…by His way of keeping time…according to His calendar. Imagine that…simply obeying our Creator out of a renewed mind. What joy and peace!
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 12:48 pm
Leviticus 18
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.
4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the LORD your God.
5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
I posted this reference about a year ago and the best I can recollect, I was using it for the general idea it contains. That being to not fall into the ways of the people we live among, but to pay close attention to do only YHWH’s statutes and judgments. We will find life in them. The other OT reference I correlated this with was:
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
We should not take pagan holidays/symbols/ideas of worship and incorporate them into our worship of YHWH. Some of the “Christian” customs have roots in child sacrifice rituals and other pagan practices. The dates are usually on the exact pagan dates using a pagan solar calendar to determine them. YHWH tells us His Holy Days and His calendar is based on a lunar month. Messiah was not born on a the basis of pagan calendars winter solstice. He was born on one of YHWH’s set apart times that can only be known from keeping YHWH’s scriptural calendar.
We should not worship YHWH according to the pagan calendar or use their symbols and customs. We should not add to or take away from what YHWH specified as His special days of remembrance and celebration. Xmas is an added day straight from paganism. Manmade traditions are not true worship as they are not spirit and truth. The antimessiah and his spirit are behind trying to change YHWH’s times and laws.
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Isaiah 24
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Antimessiah is the one that comes up with new holidays and thinks to change or abolish YHWH’s word. The real Messiah upholds and teaches us to follow every detail of YHWH’s instructions to us.
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Christmas is of man, at it’s best. YHWH’s holy days are the ones that point to Messiah and that are for us to keep if we want to be holy to YHWH.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 1:14 pm
Bo, if you can carry a tune, you bet.
December 19th, 2011 @ 1:25 pm
Dr.Brown,
It sounds better in Bob Dylanish sort of wavering monotone.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 1:26 pm
Just the fact that there is no absolutely sure way of knowing when Messiah’s birth was, should cause us to wonder about the legitimacy of celebrating such…especially by a pagan calendar date with pagan symbols…with pagans happy to join in the fun and festivity.
Luke 6
26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
1 John 3
13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
Try not celebrating xmas. See if people act differently toward you. Almost everybody in the world speaks well of xmas and it’s participants. Those that reject it are not looked upon in a quite as good a light by the world.
1 John 2
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
If there were a lack of dazzling things to look at and materialism (lust of the eyes), fleshly indulgences of eating and partying (lust of the flesh), and peer pressure (pride of life), it would be different. If the world loves us and we love it at xmas time, maybe we should take a second look at our love of the truth.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 1:57 pm
Bo–
I am ROFLOL at your song!!! Love it! Did you write it? This needs to be recorded so we can share it. This is a Christmas classic!!! LOLOLOL
December 19th, 2011 @ 2:15 pm
Thanks for taking my call, Dr. Brown. I kinda got it backwards there at the beginning (i.e. you hearing from me vs. me hearing from you); a little taste of why I don’t do radio.
At any rate, I hope the discussion is a good one today!
December 19th, 2011 @ 2:21 pm
Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) American inventor, publisher, statesman
December 19th, 2011 @ 2:24 pm
Bo,
The “surprise” is mutual.
You put up a link and directed people to it, but failed to add a disclaimer that it does not reflect your views. That was not me putting words in your mouth, it was the words you had spoken informing my understanding of your position. That said, your indignation is noted; my apologies for a false assumption.
December 19th, 2011 @ 2:28 pm
Tom,
No worries. I just forgot that you would be here and how you present things. I better be very careful about posting links without disclaimers.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 3:18 pm
I posted something like this last year and the year before
:
“1 Cor. 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
This is my ongoing testimony. The more I grow up and learn the more I have to put away. The way gets narrower but more rewarding.
I used to do Xmas (no offense intended, I think the x is an abbreviation from Greek/Latin). I wrote a song called Don’t Ex the Christ out of Christmas. It went something like this:
A kiss beneath the mistletoe
And Santa Clause so jolly.
Presents stacked beneath the tree
The halls all decked with holly.
People running too and fro
To make this Christmas merry
Buying all we can afford
to make their families happy.
When it comes to “X”-mas morn
You know that’s what it is.
Presents underneath the tree
But where’s the saviors presence?
Where is Jesus, where is He?
Don’t ex the Christ out of Christmas this year.
Don’t take Jesus out of your giving.
Put God first place in all that you do.
He’s your reason for living.
Don’t let Santa Clause take Jesus Place.
He’s really done not one little thing for you.
Jesus bled and died to pay for your sins.
He want’s you to come back home to Him….
It was a bit Keith Greenish with much conviction and seriousness. It was my way of proclaiming what I thought Xmas should be.
We never did a tree. We put a sign in our picture window that faced a busy street. It said, “Happy Birthday Jesus!” We decorated the whole house inside. The focus was a manger scene. We even put the wise men as far away as possible and left the baby Jesus out of the scene until the 25th so as to be accurate. We baked a birthday cake and sang happy birthday. We were very earnest and sincere. We put on an Xmas play with only the exact words in scripture so as to be very clear what we were celebrating….
We did not want anything that detracted or distracted from the truth in our celebrations. So the more we knew of the truth, the more we refined our lives to match up with His life.
We stopped doing Xmas when our oldest child was about 10 or 12. He’s 27 now. We have 10 children and the last 5 of them have never celebrated an Xmas. They seem to be just fine with doing the Biblical holy days instead.
I do not feel that I have exed the Messiah out of Xmas because He was never there. But He has been with us even unto the ends of the earth so to speak. We still recognize His birth on the YHWH given appointed time though. It is when he came to tabernacle among us.
I believe we have inherited lies from our fathers. (Am.2:4,1Pe. 1:18-19) (Church fathers included.) Our culture is actually what keeps Xmas going, and going worse and worse for that matter. I do not think that Messiah died to redeem certain days or practices. He died to redeem people. And redeemed people, out of gratitude should renew their minds with their Redeemer’s truth and submit their bodies to live it out. (Rom. 12:1-2)
So once I know to good and do it not to me it is sin. (Jam.4:17)
If I am not completely sure it is sin. (Rom. 14:23)
Some things to consider in this are:
Worship and Obey YHWH only and don’t do things that the unbelievers come up with.
De. 12:30-32, Le. 18:1-5, Gal. 4:8-11
Keep YHWH’s celebrations.
Le. 23:1-44, Col. 2:16-17, 1 Cor. 5:7-8
YHWH does not change.
Pr. 29:18, Ho.4:6-9, Mal. 3:6, Heb.13:8, Mt. 5:17-19
…What ever you hand finds to do, do it with all your might.(Ec. 9:10) Be a lover of the truth not just a seeker of it.(2Thes.2:10-12) For sure, do not be a hearer only.(Jam.1:22-25)Don’t forget to do your duty. (Ec. 12:13, Lk.17:5-10, 1 Jn. 3:22)”
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 6:35 pm
CHRISTMAS DEBATE! 2011
I thought I’d open with what Scripture has to say about the birth of Jesus:
Luk 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world.
Luk 2:2 (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.)
Luk 2:3 And everyone went to his own town to register.
Luk 2:4 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
Luk 2:5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.
Luk 2:6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born,
Luk 2:7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.
Luk 2:8 And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.
Luk 2:9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
Luk 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Luk 2:11 –
For there is born to you, this day, in the city of David, a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord.
Luk 2:12 This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.”
Luk 2:13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
Luk 2:14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”
Job 38:4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
Job 38:5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it?
Job 38:6 On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone– (could represent the Lord as the chief cornerstone–
Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels (sons of God) shouted for joy?
Luk 2:15 When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”
Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men (magi) from the east came to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
Mat 2:4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
Mat 2:5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
Mat 2:6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
Mat 2:7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.
Job 38:31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?
Job 38:32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Job 38:33 Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up [God's] dominion over the earth?
So, for those of you who would say that the constellations are only the focus of demon worship, pagan astrology and such, be warned that it was God who placed everyone of them–and they all have a purpose as we shall see. Of course satan would have people take the handiwork of God, “which shall be for signs and seasons” and pervert those very things in the heaven that God placed there for a reason and “whose voice goes out into all the earth”–Psa. 19:4. In time it became so obvious that these stars were not God that it became such anathema to them that perhaps they went a bit to far and forgot that God had placed them as signs for mankind. And to further say that it was the pagans who made up the names of the constellations, we can see from Job that they already had names given them by God! All of the ancient patriarchs and mankind who had no artificial light obscuring the stars would have been more than concious of them and perhaps Job being the oldest book in the Bible, they apparently learned those names in ancient times. That all civilizations, whether pagan or not named them exactly the same thing should speak of the antiquity of them and settle the matter for us.
Psa 19:1 For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Psa 19:2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psa 19:5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth from his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.
Psa 19:6 It rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; nothing is hidden from its heat.
Psa 97:6 The heavens proclaim his righteousness, and all the peoples see his glory.
So, let’s recap what we know about the Lord’s birth;
1) He was born!
2) When He was born a heavenly host of angels were sent to proclaim His birth.
3) He was born in Bethlehem.
We aren’t told this anywhere in Scripture, but I suspect that He was born at evening time. The day for the Israelites begins at sunset.
4) Wise men (as opposed to the pagan Magi who probably worshipped their star Molech and Baal and Saturnalia, etc.) came from east of Jerusalem.
It’s not given to us in Scripture, but I believe in a brief study I did of the origin of the Magus that they were of the Babylonian school–where Daniel was set over “all the wise men” of the kingdom.
They must have been Jews or they would not have come to worship the King of the Jews.
5) The star rose in the east.
6) When they saw the star, it must have been so significant to them that it pointed to the birth of the King of the Jews that they were expecting from the prophesy of—-that’s right—-Daniel!!
7) The time of the birth of Messiah was written in the stars!
I agree with Bo, and as is demonstrated by the witness of the stars, Messiah was born at the Feast of Tabernacles.
Another reason for the Feast of Tabernacles, the Feast of “Trumpets” as it is known for being the time of the birth of Christ is that God tells the end from the beginning and the LORD made the Israelites to dwell in tents “perhaps–or more than perhaps?” because the Lord was forced into “temporary dwelling” the night He was born? And then the “Heavenly host sounding Trumpets at His birth!!” —which speaks volumes to the Israelites being commanded to sound trumpets at the beginning of Rosh haShanah. Hello…
9) Riding on camels or, perhaps as some historians say, on the smaller breed of horses known from the Middle East. Anyway we know that their mode of transportation was veeerrryyy sssslllloooow going. I think camels would be more likely, they can carry more weight and provisions which they would need for such a long journey.
10) They make their way to Jerusalem arriving some one and a half, maybe two years later and gain an audience with the then king of Judea, the madman Herod, or as Revelation gives his description–the then personified antichrist of his day. Yes, there seems to be one in every generation or so…
Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 saying, “Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him.”
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
Mat 2:4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
Mat 2:5 They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
Mat 2:6 “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
11) Herod of course has absolutely no desire to have anyone usurp his throne which he ruled by wickedness and he obviously was given over to a spirit of satan and gained the knowledge of the birthplace of Messiah from the priests that he summoned.
Mat 2:7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, “Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him.”
12) So the Jews from the east set out with great joy and anticipation for Bethlehem, which is about 6 miles from Jerusalem.
Mat 2:9 After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
The Scripture says he was by now in a house. He was no longer lying in a manger, but as the lexicon can mean infant or child, as in toddler and up, he was as ever old as it took the magi to get there while following the star as soon as it arose in the east.
And this star does something very strange–it stops over Bethlehem! How in God’s heaven can a star do that?
13) We know from Scripture that after Herod realized he was duped he had all of the children of Bethlehem slaughtered from the age of “two” down to infants–just to cover all bases. Now why from the age of two? Because the wise men told him of the time they first saw the star and understood it’s profound significance when it rose in the east.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
The signs in the heaven, the allignment of the constellations and of the stars, they just say “the” star, must have appeared sometime between one and a half to two years earlier in order for Herod to make the decision that he did to kill all children of that age. Perhaps the magi having told him that they were “following the star” to Jerusalem to find the King, it could have been from the time it first appeared up until their arrival that Messiah was born. Regardless, these were obviously not your run of the mill occurances in the heaven that would have thoroughly convinced them that indeed, something so magnificent, so wonderful was written in the stars–in God’s very heaven as a witness!!
The retrograde motion of the “King” planet, Jupiter, “crowned” Regulus (the royal one-also means King) which is the brightest star in the constellation of Leo the Lion (of the tribe of Judah) in a triple conjunction (passed each other three times in a row) that got the attention of the magi and not only that, but the book of
Revelation gives us even more heavenly signs of the birth of Christ.
Rev 12:1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
Rev 12:2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
Rev 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
Rev 12:4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
Rev 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.
The constellation, Virgo, (the virgin) follows Jupiter, the King planet into the sky so closely that the two could not be diserned from each other anymore, and they appeared as the brightest star anyone had ever seen. The constellation Virgo “is clothed with the sun”, literally, when the sun rises that day, it is in the midst of her clothes! Not only that, but the moon rises at her feet! It is a very significant “cresent moon” that appears.
Why did God rename the first of the year for the Jews as “the Head of the Year?” , that Feast Day being that of Trumpets, of Rosh haShanah (the head of the year)–the Feast of Tabernacles?!!! Think about it….what pops out first when a baby is born…
This is not speculation–this is scientific, astronomical FACT! When the planet Saturn (the star of the magi) made it’s turn and the magi knew it would be heading “back” in retrograde, it was exactly on December 25th that the star “stopped” over Bethlehem!
They presented their gifts to the King of the Jews and this was the very first “CHRISTMAS”!! Although it was “not” the time of Christ’s birth, it was however the time of their giving of gifts and thus the tradition of Christians giving gifts has it’s origin in connection to the advent of Messiah!
I didn’t discover any of this myself, it’s all documented by astronomers—-not “astrologers” who are satan’s conterfeit to throw us off and keep us from looking at what God had written in the heaven from the moment He placed the stars in them.
“The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Psa 19:2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Psa 19:4 Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.”
They declare the “Sun of Righteousness”, the bright Morning Star.”!!
Isa 40:26 Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them is missing.
It’s all documented in the DVD, “The Star of Bethlehem” by Frederick Larson and every Christian/Messianic should watch it and you can get your own professional software program called, “Starry Night” and run the stars backwards and see for yourself. It’s AWESOME!!
You can view Larson’s website at http://www.bethlehemstar.net/
The Lord is bringing His flock back together as One by justifying “both” the Jewish and the Christian traditions and for that I think we should praise Him! PRAISE HIM, PRAISE HIM, PRAISE HIM! And let’s keep the pagan world from taking CHRIST out of Christmas!
Because this tradition is tied to those of the Catholic Church, we would like to automatically dismiss anything that comes from them. That is shallow thinking and it’s obvious in this instance they got something right. How the two got mixed together as one single event is beyond me, except that nothing satan does to obscure the Truth and further divide the Church surprises me at all!
The most miraculous of what Larson found I will leave for you to discover for yourselves by watching the DVD, “The Star of Bethlehem.” But, be certain you get the one with the extras at the end of it—-it will bring tears to your eyes, as he doesn’t just cover Christmas. In fact, all of it left me in awe of the Majesty of God and I sat and watched it with a box of tissues next to me—at least five times!
December 19th, 2011 @ 6:41 pm
I forgot about that smiley guy whose number is 8 followed by a right parenthesis! Didn’t mean to put him in there.
December 19th, 2011 @ 6:45 pm
I believe we should be consistent. If it’s ok to Christianise halloween and celebrate it, then it should be ok to celebrate Christmas and the goddess Easter/Eostre/עשתרת.
December 19th, 2011 @ 7:00 pm
One more thing. David Pawson talks about how the Church has gotten into situational ethics, instead of being governed by principle.
People like situational ethics, because you can draw arbitrary lines that you shouldn’t do. Like divorce is wrong, unless you’re the one seeking it because of how difficult it is to get along with your spouse. Situational ethics is all about how to lie to yourself and not feel bad.
December 19th, 2011 @ 7:06 pm
Tom and Bo, great to hear from both of you on the show today!
December 19th, 2011 @ 7:14 pm
Dr. Brown,
Thanks, It was fun. I appreciate you congeniality and approach to those that are not exactly on the same page as you.
Shalom
December 19th, 2011 @ 7:19 pm
I’m definitely going to listen to this show. Bo and Brown.
Woohoo! 
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:05 pm
(Hi Sheila! It’s been awhile! You sound well
)
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:09 pm
I miss spoke on the moon at Rosh haShanah–it was a “full” moon as the Feast Day is celebrated on.
It’s come to my attention that you can watch it on youtube at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP9vCI9ZXdE&feature=related
and the extra that will break your heart again is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2iDkgJ-RTM&feature=related
But if you can I hope you’ll contribute to Larson’s work at his webpage.
December 19th, 2011 @ 11:12 pm
Hello again Ruth!
It’s so good to hear from you! Yes, I’m knee deep in Scripture studies but my husband is threatening to hide my laptop! And my little terrier, Annie, is really put out to, so I’ll probably be MIA for a bit.
Talk to you again, hopefully soon!
December 20th, 2011 @ 12:45 am
Shiela,
Your saying “retrograde motion” makes me think you saw “The True Star of Bethlehem” — great; however, it said Jesus was a TODDLER when the Magi went to visit. He was born in June, I think it said.
December 20th, 2011 @ 12:56 am
The bottom line about Xmas is that it is manmade at best. It is man doing what is right in his own eyes. It is based on a false date on a manmade calendar. It thrives through man’s sentimentalities and peer pressure. Though it is not a Jewish fable…it is a commandment of men that turns from the truth.
Titus 1
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
It is vain worship.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…
Amazing how men find all kinds of reasons, even religious sounding ones, to fashion “golden calves” to supposedly worship YHWH. There is nothing new under the sun.
Exodus 32
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the YHWH.
Just like Aaron proclaimed a false feast to YHWH, the Roman Church did the same. The difference is that it has been perpetuated by Protestants and heathens for way too long. YHWH pronounced His feasts in Leviticus 23. Xmas is not one of them. The apostles did not announce Xmas as a feast to YHWH either. It is manmade apostasy.
Jeroboam invented feast days. It was a sin.
1 Kings 12
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
YHWH looks for those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Xmas is not truth. It is a man invented feast on a manmade date. Just like Jeroboam’s feast was. It produces vain worship. Or said another way, we worship we know not what. The Samaratans were still holding to this false worship at the time of Messiah. Do we perpetuate the sin of Jeroboam?
John 4
20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The only way to know for sure, what we worship, is to go by the scripture. Then it will be in truth. Those good hearted Samaritans, just refused the truth part. Xmas is not in the scripture. The appointed times of YHWH are. So we can obey traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth, or we can obey YHWH’s word that is truth.
Joshua 24
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
AS for me and my house we will keep YHWH’s feasts and ignore man’s. This is quite the opposite of the way the world does it. What will you do?
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 1:00 am
Dan1el,
Here is an article that uses scripture to determine our Messiah’s date of birth. He truly came to tabernacle with us on the feast of tabernacles.
He truly was the Torah/Word made flesh. He fulfills the types and shadows of YHWH’s feasts on the exact days. The pagan calendar has nothing to do with Messiah’s dealings with man…YHWH’s scriptural calendar is prophetic as to His dealings with us.
Messiah also fulfilled Passover, Firstfruits, and Pentecost on the exact day according to the scriptural calendar. He will fulfill the other feasts on the exact day. The Roman/pagan date has nothing to do with the fulfillment of scripture.
Here is a short article that explains the likely date of Messiah’s birth:
http://biblelight.net/sukkoth.htm
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 1:23 am
Bo,
I am more keen on Yeshua being conceived/born after the order of the Feasts than anything else; but, it doesn’t make sense that He could be conceived at Hanukkah, and birthed at Tabernacles: that is more than 9 months’ difference, isn’t it?
December 20th, 2011 @ 2:56 am
The only place to start when talking about these things is at the beginning. GOD ordained HIS calendar and reckoning of time in Gen. 1:14. Before there was man or laws. It is HIS redemptive plan of appointments with Men. There is no room for arguing when you start here except with GOD about HIS calendar.
Gen 1:14 ¶ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Looking at the words in Gen. 1:14. “Seasons” in Hebrew = “Moedim” Appointed times-Feast. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H4150&t=KJV
HE then told Moses how HE wanted that calendar set up. WHERE is the new year? The messianic’s have not followed the calendar correctly either in that regard. (The new year is in the Spring PER GOD and not for any reason put over top of the Feast of Trumpets. Which is a whole other subject in detail)
A recent email we sent out:
Sticking with scripture alone, The biblical calendar in Gen 1:14 is clear what GOD ordained to reveal himself in foreshadows, first, then fulfillments and then commemorate himself in truth, not tradition. GOD’s own finger wrote to tell..Moses how to set up HIS Appointment calendar. He is either the Passover lamb or not? We either celebrate the birth of the church “the feast of shavuot/Pentecost or not? etc…THe church got off when they divorced their biblical hebrew roots. We were GRAFTED INTO the Jewish root of the GOD of abraham, Isaac and Jacob, none other.
What were they doing in the book of John? What was Paul doing? What did Ruth do? Ruth left her pagan roots to follow the GOD of Abraham.
WHat did The Messiah tell the woman at the Well? He told her to leave her pagan mountain and go to Jerusalem where “SALVATION” (in hebrew Y’shua) is found. Has the church done that???
We don’t look to a Temple to celebrate the Feast that GOD calls HIS!!! ALL the spring feast have been fulfilled and we read about them and celebrate our Passover lamb in it’s appointed time…because that is what calendar GOD ordained and fulfilled!!! HE is THAT calendar every year, per say…it’s directly in real time about HIM ALONE…nothing is made-up! Why would we change it to something pagan that can’t be found in the scripture anywhere??? GOD hates paganism and said not to bring it into the land!
The fall feast that we wait to find it’s biblical fulfillment is the “feast of Trumpets”. Most call it Rosh Hashanah head of the year. BUT GOD told Moses where to put the new year and it was not in the fall. We put it where GOD said in the spring!!!
Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Sounds like GOD hasn’t changed HIS calendar and that beleivers need to learn about and how to commemorate GOD in the FEAST/Appointed times that HE ORdained. HOLY-DAYS!
I am not talking about legalism that you can find out there. BUT we read the scriptures about these things in the old and the new and celebrate that fulfillment. Knowing who fulfilled these feast and we rejoice. During Feast of tabernacles we celebrate HIS birth and sing the songs that apply and bring praise about HIS birth. This is where the christ-mas celebration is suppose to be on the Biblical calendar at the time if “TABERNACLES”. Emmanuel came to tabernacle with us in the flesh. There is TONS more on all these wonderful true feast.
During Purim we read ESther…we don’t dress up like halloween. BUT we read the scripture account and watch the Esther movie by Franklin films and can’t get enough of it…but it is TRUTH!!!! The halloween dress and take on Purim lacks the depth of this wonderful story of GOD’S unseen hand at work.
Looking forward to celebrating the Feast of dedication: John 10: 22-23 records, “Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Y’shua was in the temple area walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.”
Y’shua showed up in the flesh. It was also Sukkot there. Pretty interesting. HE always showed up at the temple. IN foreshadows HE showed up in the cloud by day and fire by night. Here HE was in the flesh at the appointed time of dedicating the temple. SO much more!
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:18 am
No, Daniel,
I didn’t say “I” saw anything. I said “atronomers”, together with the laws of the universe and the movement of the constant planets and how they behave “did”.
And I think if you read it carefully, I said it took the Magi 1 and 1/2 yrs–2 yrs. to get there.
Did you watch the movie or not?
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:20 am
or not…
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:27 am
And Daniel, Tabernacles is in September/October, based on a “lunar calendar”, Hanukkah is in December–He did say, I am the light of the world. 9 months difference.
Hanukkah:
•A Jewish holiday also known as the Festival of Lights
•Held to commemorate the rededication of the Holy Temple of Jerusalem during the Maccabean Revolt in 2 B.C.
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:46 am
Oh this is strange.
“According to tradition as recorded in the Talmud, at the time of the rededication, there was very little oil left that had not been defiled by the Greeks. Oil was needed for the menorah (candelabrum) in the Temple, which was supposed to burn throughout the night every night. There was only enough oil to burn for one day, yet miraculously, it burned for eight days, the time needed to prepare a fresh supply of oil for the menorah. An eight day festival was declared to commemorate this miracle. Note that the holiday commemorates the miracle of the oil, not the military victory: Jews do not glorify war.”
http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday7.htm
Eight days after Yeshua was born they had to travel to Jerusalem to the priest Simeon serving in the temple to have him circumsized as that was the commandment.
I think there may be more clues as to when the order of Abia was serving the Temple. I think I’ll look into that next.
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:59 am
So, if Yeshua was conceived in December, that might explain why she waited six months to visit her cousin, Elizabeth.
But why the miracle of eight days of oil in December?
Maybe that’s where the first Christmas and Hanukah got mixed together as the Church was keen on removing any of the Jewishisness of the Church. (?)
I need lots more coffee first!!
December 20th, 2011 @ 6:03 am
Daniel,
The movie said He was born at Tabernacles. I had to watch it a couple of times before I really got it. Bo and I determined it was most likely tabernacles last year!
December 20th, 2011 @ 8:53 am
Here in Iceland, we have only 3-4 hours of daylight, this time of year, depending on where you live. We do not use the term Christmas for these holidays. We call it “Jól”, which is a term from ancient times and means wheel or circle.
Before we became a Christian nation, in the year 1000, the old vikings celebrated Jól for 12 days, with the 21 Desember as the fyrst day of celebration. It was a beginning of a new year-circle and birt of a new day and a hope for a better days to come.
Because of the short days in Desember, and almost total darkness in the deep valleys in between the mountains, the words of Jesus “I am the Light of the world” have very strong meaning here.
Also the words of the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5.5 “for ye are all sons of light, and sons of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness;”
This was the core of the preaching of the Gospel in the year 1000, when we became a Christian nation and started to celebrate Jól (Christmas) as the celebration of the birth of the Messiah, the Light of the world. I hope we will continue to do so, this time of year is a grate time to share the Gospel of our Messiah. He is the Light of the world!
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:04 am
Shiela,
1. Sorry if I misread
2. Thanks; it just looked weird when I tried to read the months on a Jewish site I went to… it appeared as though His birth would’ve had to have taken place in Elu. Thanks.
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:04 am
The last line should have been.
I hope we will continue to do so, this time of year is a great time to share the Gospel of our Messiah. He is the Light of the world!
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:08 am
Omar,
It’s great to hear from someone in Iceland! How did you stumble onto Dr. Brown’s website?
I’m glad to hear of your explanation for celebrating Christmas. I especially love the hymns sung at Church services. They’re very heart warming and full of praise.
Blessings from South Carolina, USA!
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:12 am
Yes, Omar, thanks for sharing that amazing perspective with us! May God’s light shine brightly in Iceland!
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:12 am
Daniel,
I apologize for being a bit harsh this morning–please forgive me.
I shouldn’t post until after my second cup of coffee!
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:17 am
Sheila,
No problem; have a good day.
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:23 am
Sheila.
Thanks for your comment Sheila. I’m always seeking for a better understanding of the Bible. Because of this, I stumbled into Dr. Brown website AskDrBrown.org some years ago. I have been listening to Dr. Brown on line for some years now and I do so every week, and I find very enlightening.
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:30 am
Dan1el,
There is a possibility that Y’shua was conceived during Hanukha. Human gestation is not exactly 9 months. There is a pretty big leeway if we take into consideration the different variables.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:37 am
Omar,
Check out this video, as it discusses some of the customs and history of yule/jule/jol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pV9-mxcsKY
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:43 am
Linda,
I wrote it last year for the annual LOF Xmas debate.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 11:05 am
Hey folks, some of you should bring your debate over here and get to a whole new audience! http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2011/12/19/was_christ_ever_in_christmas
December 20th, 2011 @ 11:16 am
Bo.
Well, some of this is something I have read or heard before. Jim Staley presents his historical overview of the old Nordic gods and goddesses of the Icelander and the vikings, not correctly.
First, Odin has never had the same status, meaning or role as Santa Claus among us.
Tammuz is not a name of a Nordic god as he asserts, nor has the goddess Easter any meaning to us. We had other goddeses like Freyja, wich was the goddesses of fertility.
Keep in mind that the saga of the Nordic gods and the Saga of the Nordic countries was originally written in Icelandic, which is the old Nordic language, by an Icelander, before the year 980. My native language is Icelandic, I can even read the manuscripts as as if they were written yesterday,the oldest transcript we have to day,dates back to 1240 CE.
That said. The festival of Jol is heathen festival and so are the Nordic gods, but I was pointing out how we can use every opportunity to preach the Good News and have impact on how people celebrate Jól or Chritmas. Even as Paul did when he was in Athens.
Act 17.22
“Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.”
Paul was not worshiping “AN UNNOWN GOD”, but he did use the worship of the inhabitants of Athens of this “AN UNNOWN GOD” to present the True God and the Gospel of the Messiah to them.
December 20th, 2011 @ 12:10 pm
Omar,
Thanks for the response. Have you ever read The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop? Not that I agree with everything he wrote, but he discusses many of the world’s pagan deities and their stories. He attempts to show how all these are the same with different names because of the confusing of the languages at Babel and the scattering of the people to different parts of the earth. His second point is to show that the Catholic Church has adopted most all these pagan customs, symbols and idols. The point that world religion has always been the same with different names and slightly different stories seems evident enough. In this regard, any adopting of those symbols and customs seems to be in direct disobedience to YHWH’s revealed word. Has Protestantism really made a clean break from false religion? The Mother of harlots in Revelation must have daughters…no?
To use a time of year or an altar to an unknown deity to preach the gospel is fine. To offer an offering on that pagan altar or partake of the superstitions or revelry of the time of year or the pagan worship, even if modified or softened or redefined or Christianized, seems to be being unequally yoked with nonbelievers and continuing to touch the unclean thing.
2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Being that we are called to perfect holiness of both flesh and spirit, we must walk away from these pagan elements, not only in heart, but in our celebrations. Otherwise we are not being set apart to YHWH in the way He asks us to be. We are remaining unclean/contaminated and He doesn’t seem to want to receive us and be our Father and our Elohim. It is up to us to submit to His call to be Holy for I am Holy.
Part of that is keeping the days holy that He specifies. Part of that is not keeping pagan days as if we were worshiping Him.
1 Peter 1
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
We are supposed to be holy (set apart) to YHWH in everything we do (conversation/lifestyle). It is that we have been redeemed “from our vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers, not that our fathers vain traditions have been redeemed. Our Messiah is without spot and is returning for a spotless bride. He will render to every man according to his works. How much our ignorance or our intent is taken into consideration in this judgment is in question. How much we are willingly ignorant or just going with the flow of our culture is another question.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 2:52 pm
Bo.
I can not say but Amen to what you have said.
I have read the book, The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop.
I agree that these festivals are pagan festivals. But when my fellow Icelanders celebrate Christmas or dance around the Christmas tree, dance with the elves around the bonfire on the 12th day of Christmas as is custom here. All I can do is to do as Paul did in Athens, to turn this into an opportunity to tell them that Jesus is the Light of the world and we shall see the dawn of a new day in him. Jesus is the way to the true Tree of Life. Jesus has given us his Holy fire and his spirit as a promise for better things to come.
There are not so many Jews here in Iceland, so celebrating Hanukka is not a common thing here.
Shalom to you
December 20th, 2011 @ 4:13 pm
Bo,
What about people like Mother Teresa, will she be excluded because she celebrated Christmas, yet devoted her life to walking among the masses of poor and hungry and neglected and went about doing good for them?
It’s not at all about whether we celebrate Christmas, which for Christians (that I know), it’s all about Christ! And about rejoicing!
This is what Jesus said is His criteria for who is excluded and who is not:
Mat 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Mat 25:32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
Mat 25:36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’
Mat 25:37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
Mat 25:38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
Mat 25:39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
Mat 25:40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’
Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
December 20th, 2011 @ 4:18 pm
I don’t see anything about those who celebrate Christmas on the left and those who would like to keep torah on the right.
December 20th, 2011 @ 5:11 pm
I have a two question’s for all of you has not God called His people to be separated from this world and to be holy for He says in Lev 11:44 “be holy, for I am holy”?
Then why do we worship and celebrate the birth of Christ on a pagan holiday when God commands us not to learn from the pagan’s(nations) on how they served their gods, and do the same to Him. In which He detests Deut 12:30-31?
December 20th, 2011 @ 6:47 pm
If I could actually sit still long enough without trying to do three things at a time,
I might have caught this the first, second, third..time.
Something is amiss in Larson’s presentation. I think I heard him say he starts with conception on Tabernacles and then goes forwards 9 months! That would put the birth some time at Pentecost! The time of the giving of the Holy Spirit. But 53 days from the Passover does not give you two full moons…anyone?
I can’t believe I watched it that many times and missed that. I think I’ll watch it one time late this evening when I have everything else finished and pay very close attention to exactly what it is he said!
Is that what you meant Daniel?
I’m taking a break for a while. I’ve been talking to much. Really.
December 20th, 2011 @ 6:52 pm
Sheila,
John 21
21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
We will all be judged by our works. We will all be judged by whether we are obedient to what we know. It is a good thing that YHWH is gracious, but we can do despite to the Spirit of grace.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Continuing to sin when after we have knowledge of the truth is not covered by grace. There is no sacrifice to cover this kind of sin unless it is repented of. I do not know what things Mother Teresa knew. I am sure that YHWH will be as merciful as possible and completely just in His judgement of her and us. If she was trying to make up for her transgressions by doing good works, it won’t count for righteousness. If she was doing good works because she was righteous by faith, there is much reward for that.
She did not have the Line of Fire to bring things like this to her attention. Continuing in known sin after we receive the spirit of grace that empowers us not to sin is very grievous to YHWH. We can fail of the grace of YHWH.
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
YHWH describes the what He considers being holy to Him in His torah. Without it, we will not see Him. The “root of bitterness” that the author of the book of Hebrews mentions is located in Deuteronomy 29. Imagine that: a Hebrew referring to something spoken of in the Torah. Will we sell our reward or our inheritance for the pleasure of having an xmas tree? Or maybe an Easter egg or a Christmas ham?
Deuteronomy 29
18 Beware lest there be among you a man or woman or clan or tribe whose heart is turning away today from the LORD our God to go and serve the gods of those nations. Beware lest there be among you a root bearing poisonous and bitter fruit,
19 one who, when he hears the words of this sworn covenant, blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall be safe, though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart.’ This will lead to the sweeping away of moist and dry alike.
20 The LORD will not be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and the curses written in this book will settle upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.
The root that bears poisonous and bitter fruit (root of bitterness) defiles many (sweeps away the moist and the dry). The stubbornness of knowing what YHWH says about idolatrous practices and the rebellious heart that thinks that grace will cover his willful sin, that says, “I will be safe though I continue to transgress” will not go unpunished. YHWH will be unwilling to forgive that person.
Esau lost his chance to repent. The same could happen to us, if we refuse to hear YHWH’s law.
Proverbs 28
9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.
Deuteronomy 12
2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and UNDER EVERY GREEN TREE:
3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
How could anyone think that the same Elohim that wanted every altar, pillar, and grove (Christmas tree grove maybe)destroyed and the names of those pagan deities names blotted out, would allow His people to partake of the vain, pagan customs of xmas? YHWH redeems pagans, but not pagan worship practices. We are to neither add to of diminish from what YHWH has specified in our worship practices.
If every Christian in the centuries past didn’t know about this…what is that to you? Follow thou Y’shua.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 7:00 pm
Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
We can have no excuses for making up our own celebrations…especially if they parallel or participate in pagan ignorance and idolatry. We are to repent from ignorant worship, not revive paganism.
Paul’s Mars hill discourse gives us no room to keep going our own way. YHWH does not wink at ignorance forever. He expects us to grow up and learn what is righteous. He will judge the world in righteousness. Paganism is not righteousness or holiness…no matter how Christianized or canonized it may now seem.
December 20th, 2011 @ 7:16 pm
Since I see people talking about Hislop’s “the Two Babylons”, I’m putting this link up.
http://www.ralphwoodrow.org/books/pages/babylon-mystery.html
Think critically for a minute, folks!
December 20th, 2011 @ 7:30 pm
Acts 17
16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.
“The whole city was given to idolatry…therefore he disputed in the synagogue…” Hmmm! “…and with the devout persons…” Hmmm! And we as “devout” believers are having a dispute about xmas and its pagan roots. Hmmm!
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
“…spent their time…to tell, or to hear some new thing.” Hmmm…sounds like us on this website. Hmmm!
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
He didn’t offer an offering on that altar. He didn’t join in their ignorance or customs. Hmmm!
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Are we still ignorant? Should we be?
Hebrews 5
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
The “oracles of God” is the law and the prophets. Why have we become such as have need to learn them again? “…unskillful in the word of righteousness.” Hmmm!
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
The law and the prophets is the scripture that is being referred to here. It is where we are supposed to get our instruction in righteousness (right living) and our doctrine. The good works that it describes does not include celebrating xmas. YHWH’s appointed holy days are proclaimed there, though. Fully furnished unto all good works is pretty conclusive. Hmmm!
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 7:54 pm
Tom,
Yes, let’s think critically. Here is an example of the logic in the link that you posted:
“Some are ready to condemn all pillars and historical monuments as pagan. But they fail to take into account that the Lord himself appeared as a pillar of fire; and, in front of his temple, there were two large pillars (Exod. 13:21,22; 2 Chron. 3:17).
Hmmm! In Exodus 13 the word for pillar is Strongs #5982 (column) it is #4676 (monument) in Deuteronomy 12. And I guess that we wouldn’t know the difference by context, Tom? In 2 Chronicles 3 it is #5982 (column) again. Hmmm! And no one said all monuments and pillars were pagan, but some are.
So are we to believe this article that is written by a man that has not done his biblical homework(or maybe he has and is being purposefully deceitful to make his point and money) or Alexander Hislop?
For the record, I did not recommend Hislop, but he does have some interesting information and ideas in his book. If you read it, read it for what it is worth.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 8:02 pm
This is a the fixed version of the above post.
Tom,
Yes, let’s think critically. Here is an example of the logic in the link that you posted:
Hmmm! In Exodus 13 the word for pillar is Strongs #5982 (column). It is #4676 (monument) in Deuteronomy 12. And I guess that we wouldn’t know the difference by context, Tom? In 2 Chronicles 3 it is #5982 (column) again. Hmmm! And no one said all monuments and pillars were pagan, but some are.
So are we to believe this article that is written by a man that has not done his biblical homework(or maybe he has and is being purposefully deceitful to make his point and money) or Alexander Hislop? Probably neither 100%.
For the record, I did not recommend Hislop, but he does have some interesting information and ideas in his book. If you read it, read it for what it is worth.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 8:28 pm
Tom has made the point in the past that just because pagan worship has certain aspects,symbols or practices doesn’t mean that true worship won’t also have those things.
He is correct, but if we find aspects of pagan worship in what is called true worship and it wasn’t there before the pagan culture’s influence came to bear upon it, we might consider that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and has webbed feet like a duck…it is probably a pagan duck…even if it is painted to look like a ostrich. So, let’s not stick our head in the sand and go with the flow of our culture, even our Christian or church culture, just so that we won’t have to kick the ducks out of our assembly of ostriches. And let’s not be proverbial ostriches lest we become proverbs and bywords.
Deuteronomy 28
36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
Shalom
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:44 pm
Bo, so, you’re not too obsessive with your posts on these subjects, are you?
December 20th, 2011 @ 9:44 pm
Folks, an interesting link that was sent to me challenging the pagan origins of December 25th. Just FYI! http://www.patheos.com/blogs/markshea/2006/12/14618.html
December 20th, 2011 @ 10:10 pm
Shalom Dr. Michael Brown
Isn’t Genesis 1:14 enough to validate what is what? IT seems to clear it all up and its scripture alone without all the other trimmings to debate.
What is your answer?
December 20th, 2011 @ 10:56 pm
The plot thickens….
Thanks, Dr. B.!
December 20th, 2011 @ 11:13 pm
Rachael, I’m not sure I follow your thinking here re: Gen 1:14. Can you explain further? And also let me know how your thinking ties in with Paul’s teaching in Romans 14. Thanks!
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:45 am
There are some who would say we can’t add any holidays or customs, but I’m not one of them, the real question is, can something wicked be redeemed? If a major Christian denomination ‘redeemed’ Halloween and kept all the customs by changing the meanings to being about living in Christ, would that be ok? e.g. Bobbing for apples is about being baptised into Christ. The costumes are about putting on Christ, putting on the new man. And the carved out pumpkin with the light inside, is about carving out the carnal man and letting the light of God shine.
The real question is, can we keep rituals and customs which were specifically intended for something wicked – keep them all, but tell people, oh this is about Jesus.
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:57 am
I have no problem with the חכמים adding Ḥanukka as a holy festival to proclaim the faithfulness and loving-kindness of the Lord. I also have no problem with people celebrating the birthday of Christ. The only thing I disagree with is keeping pagan customs. You can celebrate Yeshua’s birthday any day of the year, even December 25th, though I’d personally do it around Tabernacles, but keeping the mistletoe, bells, cutting down a perfectly fine tree to watch it die in your living room, etc. It’s the ingredients that makes something dedicated to the Lord or Satan.
The ingredients of the temple incense was “holy for the LORD” and whoever copied that sacred formula was “cut off from his people”. People could make their own kind of incense, just it couldn’t be exactly the same as the temple incense. People are healed “in Yeshua’s name”, but people do witchcraft using specific rituals.
It’s the pagan ingredients which was kept, that I have a problem with, not even Dec 25th, and certainly not proclaiming the birth of our saviour!
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:59 am
Dr. Brown,
I read the article/advertisement that you posted a link to. If the author is correct, which I doubt, and Messiah was born on Dec.25th by the Roman calendar…so what?
Messiah was Jew. He used the Biblical calendar. So did His mother and Father and step father. 12/25 falls on a different day of the REAL calendar every year. 12/25 would be around 10 or 20 days off of the Biblical calendar date on the very next year. The Gregorian and Julian calendars are not YHWH’s calendar, as I am sure you know.
And Jews didn’t celebrate birthdays. And we are told to remember Messiah’s death not his birth. And given the fact that Luke was a pretty good historian and researcher, he probably would have told us the exact day if it mattered at all or I YHWH wanted us to celebrate it…don’t you think?
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 1:00 am
I gave the example of people being healed in Yeshua’s name as a proof that details matter. People won’t get set free by another name. So just as getting the right name matters when it comes to setting people free, so pagan customs matter, meaning they’re not neutral, but are spiritually tainted.
December 21st, 2011 @ 1:00 am
And given the fact that Luke was a pretty good historian and researcher, he probably would have told us the exact day if it mattered at all or if (not I) YHWH wanted us to celebrate it…don’t you think?
December 21st, 2011 @ 1:10 am
Hello Dr. Brown,
I know this is completely Off topic, but I would like to know if you would like to discuss the subject of the “Oneness of God” maybe on your line of fire radio or over the phone or even by email. I would like to know your views and I feel it is a subject that is extremely important, and will be very beneficial to believers everywhere. Thanks, God bless.
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:14 am
These are just my two cents worth,
if Christmas is on the same day as a pagan holiday that in its self does not mean that Christmas is a pagan holiday. One way to help new converts is to have a christian holy day on the same day as the pagan holy day. this gives the people a choice, do I go to the christian celebration and worship their God or do I go to the pagan celebration and worship their gods? God did the same with the festivals in the torah. they happen on the same day(s) as Canaanite holy day. That does not mean that the biblical holy days are pagan.
If some of the symbols that are used during Christmas are pagan in origin that does not mean much. with symbols what is important is not their original meaning but what meaning they currently for the people that use them. one must base a judgment about the appropriateness of a symbol on its current meaning not its original meaning.
While Jesus’ culture did not celebrate birthdays ours does. it seems strange to me not to celebrate the birth of Jesus while I do celebrate the birth of my wife, daughter, brothers, and parents.
with the above being said, I do not think that people should be dogmatic about the whither people do or do not celebrate Christmas, because God did not record what day Jesus was born or command us to celebrate Jesus birthday. I have not problem with the celebration of Christmas because for me the focus is God, not some foreign god, and his gift of the messiah.
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:21 am
Jingle Bells, jingle bells,
Bo is on a binge,
He can’t seem to find a way,
to listen to a thing.
Jingle bells, jingle bells,
We don’t have the right,
to celebrate and sing aloud
on such a wondrous night!
Jingle bells, jingle bells,
we don’t sing that song,
what we do is Worship True
we wish you’d come along!
Jingle bells, jingle bells,
we will be in church,
Worshipping and singing songs,
about our Savior’s birth!
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:49 am
It’s not that I believe He was born on Christmas, it’s just that we know He was born!
So, I’ll make a change to the one line and have it read:
…”of” such a wondrous night!
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:55 am
and everyone should listen to this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBZiPRPogn0
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:40 am
Sheila, well done!
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:41 am
Jon G, yes, we can’t get into that here, but I’ve discussed that numerous times on my show and written about it extensively in vol. 2 of my series.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:55 am
And remember the true miracle of Christ’s birth–the end of those things and the beginning of life evermore for all of us!
“For unto you is born this day in the city of David, a Savior, which is Christ the Lord!”
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Jew and Gentile!
If that’s not worth singing about I don’t know what is.
I can’t believe that God is not pleased with all worship we give to His Son!
There is no “other” God in Christmas. Do you know anyone that actually bows down to Mithrah or Baal anymore? Maybe you’ve seen some doing that, but I don’t know anyone who does!
Bo, you’re about to become the leader of the atheists and those who don’t yet know Jesus, who will put up signs just like you said and do away with Christ in Christmas altogether. They’ll come to you and ask you to write slogans for them. You’re sounding more and more like a mouthpiece for our enemy.
Please be careful Bo. It seems you’ve hardened your heart towards your brothers and sisters in Christ. Jesus died for His brothers and sisters who couldn’t keep torah in the first place, why would He then put the gentiles under the yoke that kept them in chains in sheol?
It makes no sense. Please leave off the verses that you selectively choose to present because you’ve missed the message in it’s entirety.
Christ was born to set all men free!!
PRAISE HIM, PRAISE HIM—PRAISE HIM!!
We have three children (not our flesh and blood, but ours nonetheless) who live in India, and Rwanda and Togo, Africa who take of the little they have, and I do mean “little” and they give gifts to those in their villages, usually food stuff and brightly decorated hand-made cards at Christmas time. Those who receive them are so surprised and greatful and when they say, “Why have you done this thing?” They are then able to share the Gospel and the miracle that God was born in the flesh as Savior of the world. Of course that message is a wonder to those who hear it and they want to know more!
So, you see, God brings forth fruit in the message of the Christ child’s birth and I don’t see how you can continue to rail against God for doing that!
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:06 am
Dr. Brown,
Thanks, but don’t expect to hear me ever sing it–I couldn’t carry a tune if my life depended on it!
And don’t sit next to me in church services because I sing with real gusto!!
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:20 am
Bo, everyone;
That is the first time I’ve ever told anyone of our work for the Lord, because we are not to sound a trumpet before us–but, I wanted you to know of it and it’s value for adding to the Kingdom of God.
These are brave children and they do more for Him than those of us living very cushy lifestyles. We’re very proud of them and more than blessed to have them in our lives.
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:25 am
Sheila,
I hear a lot of feelings and sentimentalism from you. I do not hear a lot if truth…scriptural truth. If our worship is supposed to be mainly emotions, you are on the right track. If our worship is supposed to be spirit and truth…your argument falls to the ground.
I have plenty of sentimentalism and good feelings about Xmas. I also spake as a child when I was a child and thought as a child…it is time to put away childish things. Our enemies are not the atheists. Our enemies are our own deceitful hearts and our vain traditions inherited from our fathers.
Is it not strange that we invent a holiday for the sake of celebrating the birth of Messiah and reject the commandment of YHWH to keep His appointed times. Doing things the we think are good and not doing things that we think are bad. That is eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Making the decisions ourselves…doing it our way.
To obey is better than sacrifice. The gifts we offer to YHWH are not a sweet smelling savor if we are in disobedience. Nadab and Abihu found out the hard way. Will we.
Leviticus 10
1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.
2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
“Which He commanded them not” Hmmm…sound familiar?
They didn’t do it the way YHWH had asked. I am sure that they though that their hearts were right. They were offering worship to YHWH at “church” so to speak.
It is amazing how men find all kinds of reasons, even religious sounding ones, to fashion “golden calves” to supposedly worship YHWH. There is nothing new under the sun.
Exodus 32
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the YHWH.
Just like Aaron proclaimed a false feast to YHWH, the Roman Church did the same. The difference is that it has been perpetuated by Protestants and heathens for way too long. YHWH pronounced His feasts in Leviticus 23. Xmas is not one of them. The apostles did not announce Xmas as a feast to YHWH either. It is manmade apostasy.
Jeroboam invented feast days. It was a sin.
1 Kings 12
32 And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made.
YHWH looks for those that will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Xmas is not truth. It is a man invented feast on a manmade date. Just like Jeroboam’s feast was. It produces vain worship. Or said another way, we worship we know not what. The Samaritans were still doing it Jeroboams way at the time of Messiah.
John 4
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
The only way to know for sure, what we worship, is to go by the scripture. Then it will be in truth. Xmas is not in the scripture. The appointed times of YHWH are. So we can obey traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth, or we can obey YHWH’s word that is truth.
Time to grow up. If we cannot lay aside our emotions and simply do what YHWH asks of us, are our hearts deceiving us…or what?
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Mark 7
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men…
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:34 am
Bo, once again, the big issue is not Christmas, it’s your persistent (and yes, dangerous) error of insisting that all believers are required to live under the Sinai covenant and Mosaic law. Obviously, that’s not a discussion we’re going to pursue here, but it must be restated.
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:41 am
Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
Luk 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
“For of such is the Kingdom of God.”
“Go tell it on the Mountain, Bo” I’ve done all I can to persuade you these years now, and yet you refuse to humble yourself and give God the Glory!
You need to move into “the rest of the story….” it’s called the “New Covenant for a reason.”
I’ve got lots of things to do to prepare for the dearth of family and friends that will gather in just days, so it’ll be infrequently that I look in on the conversations going on.
But–have a joyful—”day”.
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:01 pm
Dr. Brown,
Let me see…
The lights in the sky are to determine the moedim of YHWH. They were there at creation. The apostles continued to keep them and refer to them in regard to the “gentile” assemblies.
The Sabbath was made for man and it was set apart at creation. And expected of His people before Sinai.
Paul is explicit that grace and faith do not void YHWH’s commandments.
The sabbath, moedim and new moons will be kept by every nation in the millennium or else…
Paul says that we cannot be justified by the works of the law, but continues to keep the law and told Timothy to use the law for instruction in righteousness and doctrine and to be fully furnished unto “ALL” good works.
Your view does not embrace these things.
I simply agree with Paul…dangerous or not.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:10 pm
And I still haven’t found anything in the New covenant about celebrating Xmas.
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:45 pm
Shalom Dr. Brown,
PLease go above and look at my first post which is long and explains the Gen. 1:14. I will get back on the Romans 14
Todah Rabah
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:54 pm
Bo, would to God you agreed with Paul. You’d find something very wonderful there. And with that, we bring that subject to a close here, although the larger Christmas debate can obviously continue.
December 21st, 2011 @ 12:55 pm
Rachael,
Yes, I see your post, and I see no connection between that argument and the question of whether believers can or should celebrate Yeshua’s birth and when they do it, and I see Romans 14 as totally relevant to the question.
December 21st, 2011 @ 1:05 pm
Another thought. What about this? Do we toss this aside?
Jeremiah 10:2 LEARN NOT the way of the heathen.
Sounds like the same message Y’shua gave to the woman at the well when he told her to get out of paganville. Ruth got it and left.
No matter how you pretty it up…christmas and easter was not created or ordained by GOD. It has no biblical reference or meaning. You cannot provoke the JEWS to jealousy (which is scripture) with PAGAN stuff they laugh at christians. Just talk to Jewish people yourself. Even the Pagan groups talk about the church how they celebrate paganism.
To know to do good and do it not it is sin…these man made traditions may appear to the eye to be pretty but in truth they are lies.
Jeremiah 16:19
O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Sounds like GOD hasn’t changed HIS calendar and that beleivers need to learn about and how to commemorate GOD in the FEAST/Appointed times that HE ORdained. HOLY-DAYS!
NOT under ANY legalism, but under the commemoration of fulfillments. Praise, worship and honor to OUR KING who alone and no other has fulfilled these Appointments. Reading the scriptures and retelling them to your children.
Taking the road of least resistance is not where the treasure of found.
December 21st, 2011 @ 1:31 pm
Rachael, I take the path of obedience every day of my life, regardless of the resistance, and Christmas is on the bottom of my list of concerns. I’ve never celebrated it in a religious way in my life, so this discussion is just for the sake of others.
Jeremiah 10 has nothing to do with people putting up a Christmas tree in their homes, and to say it onces more, you’re missing the point of Romans 14 and doing the very thing Paul warned about.
And God did NOT command Gentile believers to keep the biblical calendar. In fact, there are warnings against laying this on people in the NT.
So, hold to your convictions and rejoice in the Lord and be big enough to let others do the same.
I’m out of this conversation now, but once more, I encourage you to learn the meaning of Paul’s words: “Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.” (Rom 14:4 ESV)
Oh, one last thing. Having been involved in reaching out to my fellow Jews for the last 40 years, I can assure that I understand what it takes to provoke them to jealousy.
Grace to you!
December 21st, 2011 @ 2:12 pm
Bo,
You’ve apparently failed to understand what Woodrow is actually saying. Yes, some people are willing to condemn all pillars as pagan due to an idea that there are pagan roots for such. That you are not one of these is of no consequence to the argument itself. Actually, I recall last year you making the assertion that steeples on church buildings are “phallic” in origin… which I would say does place you squarely in the camp of like-minded individuals who would make such vacuous claims, following a “post hoc ergo propter hoc” pattern of false thinking.
You’ve not proven he hasn’t done his Biblical homework – though you have demonstrated a clear inability to actually engage what he is saying without misunderstanding or misrepresenting it. I would say your interpretation comes more from a presupposition towards the classic “whoever doesn’t agree with me obviously must not have done their homework” frame of reference so common today, than from anything else.
Seriously, listen to my comments on the radio again: all of your objections are based on misunderstanding, misrepresenting, and/or the genetic fallacy (though “post hoc ergo propter hoc might be more accurate technically speaking).
December 21st, 2011 @ 4:07 pm
This short story is designed to solidify certain someones and not to sound sarcastic. Should someone surrender to several suggestions submitted herein, the submitter shall suddenly shout for joy.
Someones and Sometimes
Once upon a sometime there was a Creator of a universe. He created everything. There was nothing and no one before this. He created the somthing first and the someones after.
He situated the sun, satellite and stars in the sky as signposts of His time schedule. He set up certain sometimes to meet with the someones that He created and loved…and He shared some specifics concerning these in a sacred scroll. He santified a shabbat for the someones and showed them, by His supreme example, how to keep it set it apart…because they were His special someones. Once a week, on the seventh day of the week, they rested from their labors…just like their creator showed them.
The other santified sometimes that this Creator set up were for proclaiming and celebrating special events that the Creator had planned in advance. He knew that His someones would one day rebel against Him and He already had a plan to woo them back to Him and too purchase them back from the slavery into which they would sell themselves.
It happened. The someones believed the lie that they were smart enough to make their own decisions… that their creator was holding them back…that they were in slavery. They wanted their freedom and they were going to get it. They got themselves released from the garden that served as a prison. At least, that is how they remember it. Now they were free to make their own decisions and build their own garden and work for themselves. Free!…Free?
They built cities instead of gardens. They worked for other someones instead of for themselves. They had no rest. They forgot what love was like. The invented their own kind of rest. Amusement! They could participate in that anytime. No waiting for the end of the week. No keeping sometimes. Freedom!…Freedom?
Every once in a while, a someone would stumble upon an old scroll that seemed to make no sense. It had everything backwards, they thought. There was not much in it about amusement or making one’s own rules. It seemed to be about slavery and keeping time by an outdated method that didn’t make sense to city dwellers and city builders. It couldn’t be obeyed by those that worked for other someones.
Every once in a great while, a someone tried to do what the outdated scroll said and they would realize that cities were not as nice as gardens and that amusement gave no lasting peace and joy. They realized that going by the santified schedule and celebrating the sometimes in the old scroll was fun and fulfilling. They planted gardens. They smiled a lot.
The city someones were perplexed by this. It made most of them sad. It made some of them angry. “These submitted someones are in bondage and need to be released,” they shouted. The submitted someones didn’t want to be released or forced, as they called it, to go back to a sad city someone way of life. During city someone versus submitted someone debates about this situation, other city someones got to hear a little of the old sacred scroll and tried it. Some of them planted gardens and started smiling. This made the city someones really angry. “Bondage!” they proclaimed. Bondage?
The city someones had invented some speciao sometimes of their own using their own ideas and their own schedule and incorporated amusements into them. They didn’t rest much, but ran around to shopping malls buying gifts for each other so that their city-style sometimes would be fun and amusing. They even had two sometimes that were supposed to honor the Creator in a city someone sort of way. They smiled…but only when things were amusing.
The submitted someones tried to convince the city someones that the old scroll sometimes were significantly superior and were set up by the Creator for all someones as a blessing to them. They tried to help the city someones see that they were still making their own decisions instead of submitting to the Creator, even in their two religious sometimes. The city someones were irate so they used their ipods and iphones and their ibooks to solidify themselves against the old scroll sometimes and someones.
They all lived happily ever after until a certain someone came on a certain sacred sometime to gather his submitted someones. This certain someone was the one that the old book sometimes were designed to celebrate. The city someones shouted simultaneously, “Sovereign, sovereign surely we celebrated significantly enough to solidify our solidarity not to be considered to have stationed our skyscrapers on the sand!” Splat! The shattered steeples and obelisks and the sunken city streets succumbed and the sad city someones were surely stultified. The smiling submitted someones certainly survived the storm by standing solidly on the stone of obedience.
The moral of the story:
Surely to submit to the sacred scroll is substantially safer than to set up sacrificial self-styled worship situations.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 4:15 pm
Tom,
Keep the Latin going strong…sol invictus mithras and all.
Pax
December 21st, 2011 @ 5:06 pm
Dr. Brown,
Romans 14 is not the route to take here. That is not the issue, direction or intent of my comments. That shouldn’t be the heart attitude of anyone when sharing the truth about Y’shua. HOwever, in truth, We need to lift up the only calendar that GOD ordained to reveal HIS redemptive plan and inform people as to how we got off! Let people choose for themselves after they have been told the truth.
Paul was not teaching or doing the pagan calendar neither was Y’shua. Who destroyed all the pagan stuff on mars hill before he would even preach. You take away the relevance of Jeremiah?
I didn’t say that you can’t talk to Jews. BUt I have family and friends in Israel and I know what our conversations have been regarding what they call the pagan Jesus.
You said:
And God did NOT command Gentile believers to keep the biblical calendar. In fact, there are warnings against laying this on people in the NT.
Why are you using the word command? The ordained calendar is something to be desired, like salvation! Since Y’shua became the Passover lamb in the NT why would it be something that we change to do something pagan now? Why would we want to? Paul was not warning beleivers to NOT follow the TRUE messiah. But rather he said: 1 Corinthians 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate messiah. I would say that is something to be desired!
December 21st, 2011 @ 5:16 pm
Dr. Brown,
Forgot to mention…My comments were also for the group– I just wanted your feedback. I know that you talk to JEWS I have heard you.
Forgot to comment: You said:
Jeremiah 10 has nothing to do with people putting up a Christmas tree in their homes.
Is the christmas tree from paganism or not? The tree has nothing to do with Y’shua at all. Sadly most people are so torn from this time of year. There is much bondage that result from this.
December 21st, 2011 @ 5:38 pm
Rachael,
As I said, I’m dropping out of this conversation, and I pray that God will help you see the points that I and others are making here. I’m a Jew, I work with Jewish people day and night (in Israel and around the world), and I deplore paganism and could care less about Christmas trees. Pay attention to what others are saying here, since you are missing the main point that I and others are making, and I pray that you will continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.
December 21st, 2011 @ 6:03 pm
I didn’t miss any of the points made here. I think everyone made their points clear.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 6:11 pm
…”spirit and truth..”
I agree–Jesus said, “I Am the Truth.” So, as long as I am “abiding in Him” He’s got that one covered.
And it is the Holy Spirit that bears witness with “our spirit” that we are the children of God.
Yeap, “spirit and truth” that’s the formula!
You’ve spent all your energy just to come full circle on whether or not someone can celebrate Christmas in “spirit and in truth.” You’re right, that’s the formula that matters and we’ve got it covered.
Jesus is the Truth and my spirit has a Witness!
Yeap, I’m good to go!
And with that I think I will—go–put on my favorite Christmas Choir music and mop the kitchen floor.
December 21st, 2011 @ 6:18 pm
p.s. that was in response to Bo.
I wish all of you Peace–the Peace that only our Lord can bring to each of us.
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:06 pm
Bo,
For your information, during a dialogue with you about a year and a half ago you actually did sway me significantly towards your position. I began to look at everything with the eyes of the Mosaic Law, and very much considered that I needed to do everything according to the Mosaic Law to be right with God.
I spent a week or two chasing it, and it was hell. Nightmares, constant depression as I tried to live that way and realized that it was too big for me to ever begin to accomplish. I was really and truly in mortal terror as I began to believe, like you, that our standing with God is determined by our obedience to the Mosaic Laws.
Then I read Galatians again. Sweet relief! And now I’m wiser for having gone through that period of questioning. I felt like the Galatians must have felt upon receiving that letter, freshly penned, in the first century. What you endorse is nothing less than putting aside the sufficiency of Christ.
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:08 pm
Sheila,
Here is a better song to mop the floor to:
http://vimeo.com/18000714
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:08 pm
Bo,
You know how to mock, but do you know how to listen?
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:09 pm
(referring to your Latin comment)
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:37 pm
Tom,
That is interesting. I am sorry that you had a bad experience. I hope you were not trying to be justified by keeping the law…it won’t work.
I seriously doubt that a good conservative Christian would have that much trouble changing his diet, day of worship, and holy days. A tassel here and there, a week off every month from marital relations, and not wearing garments that contain both wool and flax couldn’t cause too much pain. Oh, you will have to give up Xmas and Easter too.
I once heard a testimony about having night mares because of seeking to do the truth. They had a demon cast out and were fine after that. I’m not saying that that is your problem. Just please know that your experience is not the word of YHWH. It is just one man’s testimony.
If it is too difficult for you to obey the Torah, you may simply need to get it in your heart. Just turn to Him with all your heart and soul. Then it is not too hard.
Deuteronomy 30
10 if thou shalt obey the voice of YHWH thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto YHWH thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
It is about true love for YHWH.
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
His commandments are not a burden when we love Him. Keeping the commandments as a way to gain standing with YHWH is salvation by works. I think that you said that you were trying to do that. Keeping His commandments because we love Him is a joy. And just to make myself clear, I do not think that any one can gain righteousness by doing the torah. I think that those that are righteous will keep it…if they are not talked out of it by Churchianity or scared out of it by Satan. Satan want’s us to keep sinning/transgressing the law which is still sin, but he that is righteous will do righteousness.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
So just get your doctrine and instructions about living righteously from the law, like Paul told Timothy to do and you will be just fine.
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:37 pm
Tom,
Yep, I know how to listen. Do you?
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 7:45 pm
Sheila,
You are so right. Y’shua is the truth. He is the word of YHWH made flesh. He only ever did the Fathers will. He kept torah. He didn’t celebrate Xmas. Here is what He said about sanctification:
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The Father’s word is the truth that He was referring to. He sanctified Himself with it so that the apostles would be sanctified though it so that we that heard their words would be sanctified by it. That is what Y’shua did and taught and prayed for. We might do good to follow suit instead of using a snippet of scripture as a “trump” card to do away with other scriptures. You have to have the full deck to play the game correctly.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 8:16 pm
No one replied to my post about Halloween.
The real question is, can something created in wickedness be redeemed? If a major Christian denomination ‘redeemed’ Halloween and kept all the customs but changed the meanings to being about living in Christ, would that make it alright?
e.g. Bobbing for apples is about being baptised into Christ.
The costumes are about putting on Christ, putting on the new man.
The carved out pumpkin with the light inside, is about carving out the carnal man and letting the light of God shine.
The real question is, can we keep rituals and customs which were specifically intended for something wicked – but tell people, oh this is about Jesus.
December 21st, 2011 @ 8:34 pm
David: Where did Halloween come from? What are its origins?
December 21st, 2011 @ 8:39 pm
Tom, exactly. Galatians was just what you needed to hear.
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:09 pm
Tom: Before Constantine changed the meaning of the rituals and customs to being about Christ, (like how he told idolaters that they could still pray to their idols only now it was ‘praying to the saints’), what was the origin of those rituals and customs?
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:17 pm
I like Galatians. I like what it says. I do not like what people say it says, when they twist it to mean that we can transgress YHWH’s instructions. Here is a pertinent passage from Galatians:
Galatians 4
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
It appears that Paul is afraid that the Galatians are returning to keeping pagan holidays and such. When they didn’d know YHWH they served those that were not really deities. Now that they knew YHWH and YHWH knew them they were returning to such pagan practices. Paul was afraid that he had labored in vain if this was the case. He evidently thought that celebrating those pagan days, (like Xmas and Easter) months, (remembering pagan deities like Janus, Mars and Maia) times, (like lent and passion week) and years, (like the year of the horse, pig and snake) were idolatrous.
He wanted them to be like him instead. He was keeping time by the scriptural calendar and celebrating YHWH’s feasts. Would he be afraid of us if he knew that we were using pagan calendars and celebrating pagan feasts? These are sick and poor elements of the world that trap us. I have seen with my own eyes how hard it is for Christians and pagans to stop celebrating Xmas…it must be a trap.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 9:23 pm
Bo,
Who is the one leaving off the full deck?
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Why do you think the Orthodox are still stumbling over the Chief Cornerstone today? Exactly because of Col. 2:4 and Eph.,
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh “the law (TORAH) with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
Eph 2:16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
How can you or any others who say “keep torah” read this any other way than how it’s written?!
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the TORAH with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
You’re hiding cards in your sleeve, Bo!
You’re resurrecting the hostility.
And sorry, Dr. Brown, I know this is not about Christmas anymore.
So, Bo, I’m not saying anything else after this. I’m afraid you can’t read and understand what is written because you’ve been blinded by the same thing the first century Pharisees were and the 21st century Pharisees still are!
And David,
Have you read the book of Esther–they have a holiday called “Purim” where people do dress up in all sorts of costumes and they make a noose with the likeness of Haman hanging from a rope and the custom was that they drank themselves senseless until they didn’t know who was the real bad guy. You should look into what is possibly the origin of halloween.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:04 pm
Sheila,
You have totally misrepresented what Colossians 2 and Ephesians 4 are speaking of. You should look up the words.
Try this:
What about Colossians Chapter Two?
Colossians 2
1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
[Paul wanted the Colossians to be comforted by the fact that he was pulling for them, so to speak, in the Spirit. He wanted them to be assured of the fact that he was standing with them, though they had never met in person. He was concerned that they might be beguiled by men in their locale into accepting false ideas and practices. Let the reader note that the phrase, “Lest any man should beguile you” is the beginning of a repetitive warning by Paul to the Colossians. There was a concern that “enticing words” would sway these believers away from the wisdom and knowledge of YHWH the Father and Messiah the Son; that some supposed good sounding idea of “man” would corrupt them and cause them to believe in and practice something other than the “wisdom and knowledge” of YHWH. The Colossians needed to realize that there was nothing being hidden from them that some manmade philosophy or tradition could enlighten them about regarding their worship of and service to YHWH. All they needed to know, or that there is to know, is in plain view via the Law and the Prophets and the message of the Gospel of Messiah…what we call the Bible. There were no close-kept secrets or mysterious revelations to be initiated into. There also were no ancient, oral traditions that needed to be added to the wisdom and knowledge of YHWH. YHWH had revealed His truth, the truth, for all to see and participate in.]
5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[“Stablished in the faith” is a phrase that is not only referring to the strength of one’s belief in Messiah, but is also referring to our continuing to be steadfast in the things that we “have been taught” concerning our “walk” of faith. The “order” that Paul was beholding was more than just a heartfelt trust in Messiah. He was rejoicing in the fact that the Colossians were walking out their faith according to the “wisdom and knowledge” of YHWH that they had been taught. They were holding their faith in Messiah against doctrines, traditions, and philosophies of religious men, of one sort and the other, that if believed would ultimately cause them to disobey YHWH’s word. This becomes more evident from the following things that Paul addresses.]
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
[Here we have it restated as, “Beware lest any man spoil you…after the tradition of men.” The “rudiments”/basic principles (Strong’s #4747) of the world are in opposition to Messiah and His teachings. In Hebrews 5:12-6:2 we find that there are also basic principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747) of the oracles of YHWH and the doctrine of Messiah. These oracles of YHWH and the basic doctrines of Messiah are equated by the writer of Hebrews. We would expect nothing different, because the Father and the Son are one. They are in agreement with each other. “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:30) “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;” (John 17:17, 19-20) We can be preserved or spoiled...sanctified or corrupted. It all depends upon whether we live by every word of YHWH or by the traditions and philosophies of men.]
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
[We would expect that, since the “fullness of the Godhead” dwells in Messiah, He would not have some different “wisdom and knowledge” than that of the Father. It is “philosophy and vain deceit” of man that would conclude that YHWH and Messiah have different ideas or contrary commandments or that there are other anointed ones/teachers that have more or deeper or fuller revelation. Messiah stated it very succinctly when He warned us to “think not that I am come to destroy/abolish/make void the law and the prophets.” (Mat. 5:17) The law and the prophets are called the “living oracles” or the “oracles of God” by Paul, Stephen and Peter. (Acts 7:38; Rom. 3:1-2; 1 Pet. 4:11) Messiah is the Word Made Flesh. Whose word is He? Whose word did He live out? His basic principles are the same as the oracles of His Father. There is nothing to be added or explained away or spiritualized. All we need to know is wrapped up in Y’shua’s life and teaching.]
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
[We are “complete in Him” and do not need the ideas of men to inform us about our devotion to YHWH. Believing and doing what the Word Made Flesh did and taught is all that is required of us. Messiah said, “All power in heaven and earth are given unto me.” (Mat. 28:18) He is the “head of all principality and power.”
“Principality” (Strong’s #746) and “power” (Strong’s #1849) are words used in the NT to denote positions of government and also the men that hold those positions. It is only by extension and with words of clarification that these Greek words are used of “heavenly” or “spiritual” or “invisible” positions or beings. That there are “spiritual” or “heavenly” or “invisible” principalities and powers behind the men that hold the earthly positions is true, but even in those cases we usually end up dealing directly with the humans involved just as Y’shua dealt directly with the human element during His ministry.
Paul, in 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, demonstrates this principle. He does not fight with a physical sword, but with words. Words are very powerful. He uses words, speaking both the scripture and its applications along with logical arguments, to cast down imaginations in people’s minds that are contrary to knowledge of YHWH. He did it in person and in written form. Even in the passage we are discussing, we see that he appeals to the Colossians with logical arguments as to why it is not appropriate to submit to the teachings of men that are contrary to the Father’s and the Son’s “wisdom and knowledge.” He is casting down wicked ideas/imaginations.
In Luke 12:11 we find the first use of these authority terms together in the “New Testament” scripture: “And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates (Strong’s #746), and powers (Strong’s #1849), take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:” We see here the very same sentiment that Paul expressed. Namely that YHWH’s words will be given to us to wage a spiritual battle against the men that are the very “principalities and powers” to whom Y’shua was constantly showing their absurdities and misuses of scripture by use of His words of “wisdom and knowledge” of scripture. This is exactly what Colossians 2:15 is saying.]
(Note: In order not to break the flow of the discussion on “principalities and powers,” we will discuss verses 11-14 later.)
15 And having spoiled principalities (Strong’s #746) and powers (Strong’s #1849), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[What is the “therefore” there for in verse 16? It is showing that the men that were in leadership (principalities and powers), having been shown to be insubordinate and that were subsequently unseated, do not have any authority to rule in matters of scriptural observance. (Mat.21:23-46) We are warned again to “Let no man judge” us BECAUSE of what Y’shua did to prove the absurdity of the religious leaders’ ideas of what constituted obedience in these areas. YHWH’s scriptural observances are not to be contaminated or replaced by man’s worldly principles, traditions and philosophies. We are to adhere to the “wisdom and knowledge” of Messiah and YHWH.
To be continued.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:04 pm
Continued from above.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many commandments of men to the “knowledge of YHWH.” Y’shua had made these authorities look like fools in reprimanding them about their ideas… especially concerning food and drink, and Sabbaths…not to mention many other topics. He truly “triumphed over them” in a very public and humiliating way in these confrontations. Thus we read, “…neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Mat.22:46) Though He rebuked the “principalities and powers” concerning their manmade rules, He continued to keep Torah perfectly and He did not teach His disciples to do anything differently than He was doing. He sanctified Himself by keeping YHWH’s commandments and expected this lifestyle, void of manmade additions, to be the sanctification of His disciples and the sanctification of those that would believe through their word. (John 17:17-20) He did not come to make the law void. (Mat. 5:17-19) He did not die an agonizing death in our place because of our transgressions of YHWH’s perfect law, just to allow us to continue in transgression of YHWH’s instructions. He came to give us a new start, a new spirit, a new heart, along with the ability to obey YHWH.
We also should not to listen to the manmade ideas of modern religious, even Christian, men in regard to how to, or whether to, keep YHWH’s feasts, new moons and Sabbaths…which happen to be part of YHWH’s perfect Torah…His oracles…His basic principles/rudiments. We are to cast down the arguments/imaginations of men that are contrary to the straight forward commands of scripture. When we submit to man’s ideas, instead of to the teaching of scripture, we are beguiled of our reward for obedience. So the exhortation stands…we are not to be intimidated into adhering to man’s additions to or subtractions from YHWH’s commandments. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…” (Rom. 6:16) Basically, we serve, and are thus sanctified (set apart) to the one whose ideas we accept and practice. Our loyalties reveal to us our hearts’ secrets that might otherwise go unnoticed because of our hearts’ deceitful ways. (Jer. 17:9) “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) “Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.” (1 Cor. 7:23)]
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[The Greek behind this verse has some interesting nuances. First, the holy days and Sabbaths to which this verse refers ARE shadows. It does not say “were shadows” as if these things are to be relegated to the past. It does not say, “These things are mere shadows” or “are only shadows.” Second, there is no “is” in the Greek in this verse. This is shown by it being in italics in the KJV. Paul is speaking of “the body of Messiah,” just as this phrase is translated throughout the rest of scripture. He is not saying that “the substance (or reality) is of (or belongs to) Christ.” The Greek word for “body” simply and only means “body” not “substance” or “reality.” Third, the word “but” is a Greek word that can as easily be translated “and.” This becomes mandatory when the translators’ added “is” is removed. Some translators, translating in a way that supports their preconceived ideas, take unjustified liberties when rendering this verse. The KJV comes the closest to the Greek, but still has the two small problems listed above. A literal translation would read, “Which are a shadow of things to come and the body of Messiah.”
So, the holy days and Sabbaths are prophetic celebrations of future encounters of YHWH with the body of Messiah. They are rehearsals of our betrothal and wedding to Messiah and our anniversaries, so to speak. They are shadows of us, as Messiah’s body, and what will happen to us or with us in the future. We know from other passages in scripture that the celebrations of YHWH are commemorations of His dealings with His people in the past, but Paul gives us this second reason to “respect” or keep these holy days. There is a consistent pattern in the storyline of scripture that demonstrates how YHWH shows up on these exact days to interact with His chosen people…His bride…His body. Y’shua was sacrificed on Passover, ascended as the First Fruits from the dead on the exact holy day, and poured His Spirit out on Pentecost. The fall feast days are also pictures of Messiah’s redemptive work. Though these days commemorate other past interactions, we evidently, according to Paul, still have future fulfillments to look forward to and to celebrate.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many traditions and commandments to the pure word of YHWH concerning the celebration of these set apart/holy days of YHWH. This may well be the reason that their Messiah and His fulfillment of these days were obscured from their sight. They had made them into Jewish holidays instead of keeping them as YHWH’s holy days. This would be a good reason not to let men and their ideas be our guide/judge of how to “respect” these days. When we are true to the scriptures regarding these days, we maintain them in the holy status that they were designed to hold. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Exod. 20:8) “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.” (Lev. 23:2)
“And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Mat. 22:1-14) It would not be good to miss out on our rehearsal dinners, so to speak, and not have our wedding garments ready to go. Let’s not be too busy with our own things to celebrate with our King and keep our anniversary dates with Him. Let’s not be beguiled of our reward.]
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels (messengers), intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind,
[What is a fleshly (Strong’s #4561) mind? Let’s use Paul’s definition for sake of consistency. “…the carnal (Strong’s #4561) mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” (Rom. 8:7) So the carnal/fleshly mind is one that cannot or will not bring itself into agreement with YHWH’s Torah. It fights against YHWH and His rulership.
When we submit to messengers/preachers that tell us not to keep YHWH’s feasts and Sabbaths, we are being beguiled out of our reward. We are subjecting ourselves to prideful, carnal minded men instead of to the instructions of YHWH and thus we find that we are carnal minded also. If we can be tricked into listening to great sermons and teachings on the meaning of the feasts and Sabbaths and continue to fail to keep them, we have been beguiled. If we have swallowed the idea, and thus many other things that the scripture says are not food, that the dietary laws were only until the refrigerator was invented or only until we learned how to cook animals fully, we have savored a deception. “Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7) “But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.” (Jam. 1:22) “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” (Rom. 2:13)
When we follow the additions (traditions) of Judaism or the subtractions (philosophies) of Christianity, we are elevating man to the place of Elohim/judge. It doesn’t matter how old the tradition is or how new the supposed great idea is. If it is causing us to disobey the “wisdom and knowledge” or the “oracles and doctrine” of the Father and the Son, it is robbing us of our reward. “So then they that are in the flesh (Strong’s #4561) cannot please God.” (Rom. 8:8) “For he that soweth to his flesh (Strong’s #4561) shall of the flesh (Strong’s #4561) reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Gal. 6:8)]
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
[“The commandments and doctrines of men” are the things that we are not to submit to. We are supposed to have died to worldly principles/rudiments (Strong’s #4747). We are supposed to be keeping YHWH’s and Y’shua’s principles/basics (Strong’s #4747). Everyone, every era and every culture, even Christian culture, has their ideas about what is appropriate and inappropriate, what is tasty and disgusting to eat and drink, what is healthy and unhealthy to partake of. Will we submit to YHWH’s ingredient list or carnal minded man’s? Certainly the passage above is not saying that YHWH’s ordinances are worldly. From the context, the meaning in the above passage is obvious. We are not to submit to man’s ideas of diet, but we are to submit to YHWH’s definition of food and drink, and not to let man mix his vain deceit and philosophy into the recipe. Certainly man has discovered principles about diet that can be beneficial to us depending on the situation. However, almost none of them contradict YHWH’s dietary instructions. There is much freedom in this area inside the fences that our loving Father has erected for our benefit and our holiness to Him. It is quite telling when we realize that we brush our teeth every day and wash our hands before meals and after going to the restroom, but still do not adjust our eating habits to match Messiah’s and our Heavenly Father’s basic principles. If we will subject ourselves to man’s idea of cleanliness, but refuse to be clean by YHWH’s standards, who are we sanctified to?]
To be continued.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:05 pm
Continued from above.
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
[The commandments of YHWH are part of His “wisdom and knowledge.” Man’s carnal mind resists YHWH and comes up with other ideas. These ideas and practices may feel “satisfying,” ease our consciences, or assure us that we are more pious than others. They can seem like “wisdom” or look like “humility,” but true humility submits to YHWH’s word. True wisdom is to obey. “To obey is better than sacrifice…” (1 Sam. 15:22-23) The story of Saul being rejected from being king and subsequently losing the Spirit of YHWH is a solemn reminder to us not to listen to men…like Saul did…and not disobey YHWH’s command…like Saul did…and not be “beguiled of our reward”…like Saul was. (1 Sam. 15:1-35; 16:14)
When we only do the things that make sense to us, we are proud…not humble. It is a test of our humility and faith when we are asked to keep YHWH’s holy days, Sabbaths and dietary ideas. It is faithfulness in the little things that proves our wholehearted devotion. “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much…” (Luke 16:10) Messiah told us what would bring us a great reward. He said, “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 5:19) Will we accept these basic principles of the doctrine of Messiah or let the doctrines, traditions and philosophies of men trick us out of our reward?]
“The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.” (Psa. 19:7-11) It will truly be a “great reward” when we are elevated by Messiah to a high place in His coming kingdom, but this will only happen to those that humbly submit to YHWH’s ideas in the here and now. “Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 18:4) “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:” (1 Pet. 5:6)
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Rev. 22:14) Not to be allowed entrance into the New Jerusalem or to partake of the tree of life would be quite the opposite of a great reward. What are we being beguiled out of when we listen to men that teach us not to submit humbly to YHWH’s commandments? Maybe more than we had thought. “If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.” (Col. 3:1-4) These are the sentiments that come directly after Colossians chapter 2. Setting our affections on things above is not some ethereal or nonconcrete sort of endeavor. Obeying YHWH’s word is how we seek first the kingdom of YHWH and His righteousness. Kingdom rewards are for those that are faithful in the here and now. “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deut. 29:29)
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Gal. 3:21) Keeping the law is absolutely not against YHWH’s promises/rewards. As we have seen, keeping YHWH’s commandments brings great reward. Let me acknowledge, at this point, that no one can become righteous by keeping rules or laws, even YHWH’s perfect law. Even Y’shua was not righteous because He kept the law, and He kept it perfectly. Our Messiah kept the law because He was righteous. This is the way it is supposed to be for us also.
Keeping YHWH’s commandments is supposed to come from our having been made righteous by placing our faith in Y’shua’s sacrifice. We are to gladly present ourselves as living sacrifices out of gratitude. The only way to be a pleasing sacrifice is to live in accordance with the good, acceptable and perfect will of YHWH. The only way to know His will is to pay attention to His instructions that He has so graciously spelled out for us in the Scripture. (Rom.12:1-2) So it is not that we have to keep the commandments in order to partake of the tree of life. It is that our born again spirits working in conjunction with our minds, that we have been diligent to renew in the scripture, produce obedience in our lifestyle. It is a process. For the most part, it does not and, indeed, should not need to be a painstakingly slow one. YHWH’s written word is easily available to most all of us, at least in the West. We can simply read through the Bible, putting the things we read into practice as we go, by the power of YHWH’s Spirit of grace. Within a year or two, or at the most three, we can become significantly better at being “doers of the word.” (Luke 13:6-9; James 1:21-25)
Peter said of Paul that his writings were difficult to understand and that the unlearned twisted them to their own destruction…becoming law breakers. (2 Pet. 3:15-17) We can fall into that trap ourselves. When we have listened to the doctrines of men and have adopted their ideas as our mindset, we can inadvertently reject the basic principles of YHWH’s perfect instructions. Paul is difficult to understand when we do not know the foundational teachings of Messiah, which are the same as the oracles of YHWH…the Law and the Prophets. (Heb. 5:12-6:2) Paul instructed Timothy to use the Law and the Prophets to gain the wisdom and understanding he needed to be completely furnished in living right (righteousness) and knowing true doctrine. (2 Tim. 3:15-17) When we read Paul as saying something that contradicts the doctrine contained in YHWH’s “living oracles,” we have twisted his intent…we have been beguiled…we have been spoiled…we have had our reward stolen…we have let men judge for us what is righteous instead of subjecting our minds to YHWH’s law…we have become carnal minded…and we cannot see or understand that it has happened because we have deceived ourselves by not putting YHWH’s commandments into practice. (Jam. 1:22)
Here is a compilation of Paul’s own explanations of what he was, and was not, saying in his writings:
“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)
[YHWH’s law defines what is and is not sin. It cannot be wrong to do what it says to do. It has to be wrong when we fail to do what it says to do; because that would be sinning by Paul’s definition.]
“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” (Rom. 6:1-2, 15)
[Since sin is defined by the Law, breaking or transgressing the Law is sin. Grace does not allow us to continue to transgress YHWH’s rules in His Torah. If we are truly dead to sin and alive to YHWH, we will stop sinning/transgressing the Law. Grace is supposed to empower us by giving us a new starting place…as if we had never sinned/transgressed YHWH’s law. Our past transgressions do not count against us; so we can go forward with confidence. Without grace, there is no eternal reason to keep the law since we have already broken it with no hope of ever being able to make it up. With grace, we can be assured that our efforts to obey YHWH will be rewarded…if we let no man beguile us out of our reward with their doctrines and commandments of men.]
“Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.” (Rom. 7:12, 14)
[The law is not a bad thing. How did we ever come up with the idea that something that was breathed by our loving Heavenly Father was other than spiritual, holy, righteous, just and good for us? We have bad ideas about it because of our carnal thinking.]
“For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.” (Rom.8:6-8)
[When we do not want to do what the law says, we show that we are still carnal minded and that we are fighting against YHWH. If we renew our minds in the scripture and love YHWH’s instructions/Torah, we will begin to please YHWH by being obedient. Being subject to YHWH’s Torah is being spiritually minded. Rejecting His instructions in the Tanakh is indicative of a carnal mind.]
“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.” (Rom. 3:31)
[Coming to faith does not exclude us from obeying YHWH’s instructions in His Torah; it empowers us to keep them because of grace. The law is established…it has a better foundation in our lives when we have repented for having broken it (sin), and received forgiveness. Now we can build with the gold, silver and precious stones of obedience instead of with the wood, hay and stubble of man’s ideas, traditions and philosophies that amount to disobedience.]
To be continued.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:05 pm
Continued from above.
Now let’s look at verses 11 through 14.
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[These verses are sandwiched between the “principalities and powers” verses. The first of those two verses lets us know that Y’shua is the head of all authorities. The second is speaking specifically about His triumph over the religious authorities in the realm of Judaism and that He openly proved their rulings to be manmade traditions of men that turn from the truth. Where do we stand in all of this? We are complete in Him. His wisdom and knowledge is everything we need to know.
In verse eleven we are told about our spiritual circumcision. As Paul says, “Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law, But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom. 2:26-27, 29) Our circumcised hearts want to do what YHWH asks of us. We were dead because we were not in covenant with YHWH (uncircumcision of our flesh) and because our transgressions of His law (sins). With this new heart, we submit to the act of baptism, and by so doing we announce our loyalty to Messiah and YHWH. “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” (1 Pet. 3:21-22) Peter gives a second witness to the idea that our baptism puts us in a place where our allegiance is directly to the Head of all principality and power. This is why verse 16 of Colossians 2 says that we are to let no man judge us. “Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.” (1 Cor. 7:23)
Now, our hearts being purified by faith and with our desire to please YHWH, we are alive because of the forgiveness of our trespasses. Verse fourteen tells us, in legal terms, how this forgiveness was accomplished. The phrase, “handwriting of ordinances” in the Greek world of Paul’s day was the equivalent of an IOU. This term was also used in the court system for the official written charges against the defendant. This term was not used to mean the “body of law” or “legal requirements.” Literally, our “certificate of debt” (whether to a creditor or the community) was canceled…”blotted out.” All the charges against us and our debt to YHWH and mankind, because of our sins, were nailed to the execution stake when Y’shua took our guilt upon Himself.
YHWH’s law was not “nailed to the cross” as some modern, Christian principalities and powers emphatically state. It was the record of our transgressions of His law that were dealt with. Messiah did not forgive us our trespasses by doing away with the law, as that would be the same as making sin not be sin anymore. And we know that the very same things that were wrong before we came to faith are still wrong. If we read verse 14 in such a way as to nullify YHWH’s perfect law, we end up doing the same thing that the Jewish principalities and powers were doing by their interpretation of the law. “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13) We also contradict Y’shua’s direct statement: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” (Mat. 5:17)]
This can seem overwhelming to us, if we have grown up being taught differently. We can be cured. We can become doers of the word. We can renew our minds in YHWH’s Torah and present our bodies as obedient children, becoming living sacrifices. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:1-2)
It is simple, but it is not easy. It is difficult to stand in opposition to the traditions and commandments of men…especially of men we love and have been close to…of men that are our family…of men that have been our pastors and teachers. But we will be given the words to say when we are brought before our modern day “principalities and powers.” We may not convince them, but they will run out of truly scriptural arguments. It is difficult to get out of old ways of thinking and to stop participating in our old ways of doing things. Habits die hard, but we have been given the Spirit of Grace who empowers us to change. We have been given the ability to truly love YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength…by keeping His commandments. That is how love for YHWH expresses itself.
“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” (Deut. 7:9) “And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul…” (Deut. 11:3) “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15) “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” (1 John 5:3) “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Rev. 14:12)
The saints, those that are sanctified (set apart) to YHWH, are called to keep their faith in Y’shua AND to keep YHWH’s commandments. To do one or the other does not wholly sanctify us. We must be sanctified (made holy) in both flesh and spirit. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Cor. 7:1) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Heb. 12:14) It is our call to cleanse ourselves in both areas by faith and works. Real faith always produces works. What we truly believe, we demonstrate to all by what we do. (Jam. 2:17-19) A faith in Y’shua that does not produce commandment keeping is either a false faith or an uninformed faith. We are not supposed to remain ignorant or unfaithful. We are to grow up and go on to perfection/maturity.
“For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection…” (Hebrews 5:12-6:1)
The basics of YHWH’s oracles are in need of being taught again because they have been ignored or slandered as legalism. We have seen that the “New Testament” has much to say about keeping the Father’s commandments. It is not legalism to keep them…it is pride and rebellion not to keep them. It is also fruitless to keep them in order to gain righteous status before YHWH. We cannot be saved by works, but we cannot be saved without works either. It takes FULL FAITH in Y’shua’s sacrifice which produces FAITH-FULL-ness to YHWH, which is shown by keeping His commandments. “What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?” (Jam. 2:14) Men have beguiled us of our reward with their doctrines and religious philosophies that preach a gospel that produces a workless faith, at least as far as the works described in YHWH’s Torah/living oracles. We ought to be teachers by now. We ought to be doing and teaching others to do YHWH’s commandments; not so that they can get saved, but so that they can “work out their own salvation with fear and trembling” and not lose their reward. We ought to do this so that we also won’t lose our reward.
“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” (Mat. 5:19)
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:09 pm
Sheila,
I just played all the cards in the Colossians 2 deck…read ‘em and weep. Royal Straight Flush.
Shalom
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:12 pm
Bo,
Let me ask you something that may clear up a lot of things for me.
Who is YHWH?
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:14 pm
Bo,
Yeah I’ll say you nailed this one:
“We ought to be teachers by now. We ought to be doing and teaching others to do YHWH’s commandments; not so that they can get saved”!!
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:15 pm
No more, Bo.
Not on this thread.
December 21st, 2011 @ 10:28 pm
Bo,
Don’t even bother responding to my question or my post–I’ll not discuss it anymore.
I’ll pray for you.
December 21st, 2011 @ 11:31 pm
I somehow knew that she would disagree.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 2:43 am
Eph 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
Wall of hostility:
Which was Jew against pagan gentiles. Still today gentiles are called “dogs” and the Jews don’t mind giving their passover leaven, that they collect, to a gentile. Sad that they deplore a gentile, another human being like this, but they are looking at the gentile as the pagan that GOD hates…HOwever, this sect, don’t know Y’shua.
The two one? Jew and Gentile. So did the Jew turn from the biblical calendar to turn or start looking pagan? Or were the gentiles grafted into the HEBREW root? Have you ever studied grafting? The idea is that the grafted branch takes on the character etc.. of the ROOT!
Many here use this “LAW” word and miss use it. THe levitical system has been laid to rest thru Messiah becoming the perfect attonement…careful that points us to a “FEAST” another appointed time fulfilled. Its not about the law its about the FULFILLMENTS that are now commemorations of the TRUE MESSIAH HIMSELF! THe one who alone hands out “SALVATION”. That one!
There is PEACE in the Feast/appointed times because they are all about HIM! Not trimmings and debt and all the yokes of christ-mas but about HIM alone. Read the accounts in the old and read the NT and see them doing these feast in JOHN and other places.
We don’t practice the yoke of the OT law that is done. BUT HIS event calendar is not!
Zephaniah 3:18
“I will gather THOSE WHO GRIEVE about the APPOINTED FEAST — They came from you, O Zion; The reproach of exile is a burden on them.
Eph 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh “the law (TORAH) with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
He did lay aside the demands of the law by becoming the perfect fulfillment of all that was required. BUT HE did not say that HE laid aside or abolished HIS calendar. THat would nullify everything about HIM. The Fall feast of Trumpets has not been fulfilled yet. Do you want the TRumpet to sound for the catching away of the beleivers?
December 22nd, 2011 @ 2:49 am
Jerusalem Post article….a real surprise
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=250131
December 22nd, 2011 @ 3:00 am
Regarding article: Here are some excerpts
Christians worldwide are gearing up to celebrate Christmas. Christmas trees are being erected, presents purchased and the turkeys prepared for the oven. Millions of church services will be held on December 25 to mark the birth of Jesus of Nazareth.
The tragedy is, most of us have no idea why. We have forgotten that Jesus was a Jew – He came to this world as a Jew, lived as a Jew, died as a Jew, and will (we believe) come back a Jew. Most Christians have no idea that today’s Jews are descendants of Jesus’ friends and brethren. In fact, we have forgotten (if we ever knew) that the very reason Jesus came was to fulfill God’s promises to Abraham – to bless the Jewish people, and though them to bless all nations. We have made Jesus into a sort of Disneyland figure, conveniently cut off from his Hebrew roots and the people he so loved, among whom he dwelled, and for whom he gave his life.
May the God of Israel give us Western Christians the spirit of humility to acknowledge our mistakes, the grace to open our eyes, the conviction to repent and TURN FROM our old gods, and the strength – like Ruth – to accompany Naomi back to her land.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 7:15 am
And thousands upon thousands of Christians, maybe even more, worldwide, will be brutally attacked, mamed, tortured, and even killed this Christmas because they identify with the Savior of the World, which in most of the world is called, “Christ.”
Get real!
December 22nd, 2011 @ 8:13 am
And of “that day and hour, no man knows”; could it be that when “except those days be shortened no man will be left alive” that we really “do not know” when He is coming? Which is exactly what Scripture says. “It is a day known only to the Lord.”
Maybe He’ll come this Christmas!
December 22nd, 2011 @ 8:14 am
Rachael,
I’m preparing something in response to what you’ve shared. I understand and appreciate your concerns, I really do.
Give me just a bit to order my morning and I’ll work it up.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 8:47 am
Hope this historical/theological perspective helps some people…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schjf94NC0c
December 22nd, 2011 @ 9:01 am
rachael
Thanks for that Jerusalem Post article.
I would agree that Christians need to go back to the Hebraic roots of Jesus and his Apostles. Especially their creed of the Shema. But one thing that I see time and time again is the prevalent misunderstanding of who the true Israel of God is. And whether or not Chrtistians should support unbelieving Jews or not. The article is obviously geared towards this erroneous view that present-day Jews are somehow the people of God even though they currently reject Jesus as their promised Messiah.
So my question to the writer of this article, and please if anyone on here has an answer feel free to respond, is…what makes you God’s chosen people? The fact that your a Jew by birth or by believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah of the Hebrew scriptures, the unique Son of God?
December 22nd, 2011 @ 9:35 am
This somehow proves that Xmas is correct to keep? It is bad when anyone is persecuted or treated as second class citizens. Lots of Jews get persecuted too. So maybe the holy days that they keep are the correct ones…no?
Shalom
December 22nd, 2011 @ 9:41 am
Chuck,
A great question, so please find the thread where we discuss these questions (such as my discussion on Romans 9-11) and continue the discussion there. It is totally welcome but off topic with this thread, obviously. But again, the discussion is quite welcome! As for the Shema — amen to every syllable of it! (And with that, we’re obviously done with that subject here too.) Thanks!
December 22nd, 2011 @ 9:45 am
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
So now that we are no longer gentiles or foreigners, but partakers of the commonwealth of Israel and fellowcitizens with the Israelites, we are called to do the same works that they are called to do. There is not two different sets of rules. We are one body. We are grafted into Israel. We are partakers with them of the covenants (plural) of promise. And the law is not against the promises of YHWH. Keeping the law does not keep us from experiencing YHWH’s covenants of promise. Even Abraham kept YHWH’s laws and commandments after he was justified by faith. His faith produced faithfulness. (Gen. 26:5)
Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
So we see that the law cannot give life. No law can do that. It is simply a testimony as to what is right and wrong. Right and wrong do not change. Breaking the law produces death, and once broken, no amount of law keeping produces life. That is why we need a savior. But once we are saved, we do not get to go against that which is right and participate in that which is wrong. The law still defines these things for us. So righteousness cannot be produced by the law, but those that have been made righteous do righteousness, and the law tells us what those things are. If we have the spirit that inspired the law inside of us, leading us, we will keep the law, not to become righteous, but because we are righteous.
Some of those righteous things are keeping YHWH’s moedim (Set apart times). Do not forget that Paul was afraid that he had labored in vain for the Galatians because they were going back to their pagan roots and celebrating those holidays.
Galatians 4
8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
Pretty neat how the book of Galatians shows YHWH’s law to be the right thing to do and the pagan holidays, such as Xmas, to be wrong…no?
Shalom
December 22nd, 2011 @ 11:42 am
David,
Can you provide documentation for Constantine telling idolaters “that they could still pray to their idols only now it was ‘praying to the saints’”?
You didn’t answer my question: I asked about the origin of halloween, as you seem keen on barking up that tree. It didn’t come around until the middle ages, centuries after Constantine.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 1:49 pm
According to History.com and Wicipedia.com, Halloween (by that name) was up and running in the mid 1500′s. In the eighth century, Pope Gregory III designated November 1 as a day to honor all saints and the day was known as all saints day from which we get all hallows eve. The reason for this is that the day started in the evening. So Halloween basically means Hallows evening…the start of all Hallows day. Before that, the day was celebrated by the Celts as Samhain. Samhain acquired a couple of Roman deities’ accoutrements before being absorbed along with it’s conglomeration of varying pagan traditions into the Catholic holiday. Give or take.
http://www.history.com/topics/halloween
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween
Shalom
December 22nd, 2011 @ 2:04 pm
Right on one count: Nov. 1st is All Saint’s Day and from that comes All Hallow’s Eve. As to the Samhain connection: not likely. Professor Ronald Hutton presents very serious challenges to this idea in his book “The Stations of the Sun: A History of the Ritual Year in Britain”.
That said, the topic here is Christmas, so I’m going back to that. My point in referencing the origins of Halloween was only to illustrate that David doesn’t seem to know what he’s talking about.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 2:18 pm
Tom,
Oh, I see. One man’s book against vast scholarship proves this point of yours. When are you going to convert to Catholicism?
Shalom
December 22nd, 2011 @ 2:46 pm
I’m beginning to wonder if Paul wrote Romans chapter 14 so that the Roman Catholic Church could adopt whatever pagan ideas about eating and celebrating they wanted. Hmmm! OK, maybe not.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 3:00 pm
Having just moved to this country I was surprised to see how scarily zealous most Evangelicals are about Christmas. Its almost blasphemous to speak against it or say that Santa Claus doesn’t exist!
Nowadays you have to be blind and deaf to ignore its pagan origins. But my main reason for rejecting it are its bogus, nonsensical theological implications. I mean, do people really believe “God the Son” got Himself born? Seriously folks!!!
December 22nd, 2011 @ 3:37 pm
Chuck, you really couldn’t resist, could you? You will NOT inject a discussion of the deity of Jesus into this thread here. Do you genuinely not know you are violating our posting policies time and again, or do you simply refuse to honor our policies? Rather than answering, please simply comply. Otherwise, all your comments will be moderated before ever being posted.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 4:08 pm
Hey folks,
We just received this email at our website and I wanted to pass it on.
Michael
After listening to “Bo” and his little song about paganizing Christian Christmas celebrations, I wanted you to be able to share some of the information from this website with him and others http://www.bethlehemstar.net
I think you will find it as fascinating as I have.
I showed the DVD “The Star of Bethlehem” last night at our church and provided a 16 page handout of the information covered. The congregation was enthralled with the scientific facts that are so beautifully documented in the film and in the written handout.
It is a wonderful portfolio of facts to inform our apologetics to an unbelieving world in a language that most are willing to listen to… scientific.
I’m sure that you are extremely busy in the day-to-dayness of your ministry during the rest of the year and no doubt overwhelmed during this amazing time of the year, but I hope you might find the time to give this a look.
Just another brother in Christ,
Gary
December 22nd, 2011 @ 4:24 pm
Dr Brown
It seems I am never on topic with you.
But I digress…maybe I missed it but I just read your Town Hall article and listened to your radio show and it seems to me your on the fence about this subject. Are you? If not, what is your belief?
December 22nd, 2011 @ 4:38 pm
O yeah and can someone answer the following…
Are Christmas & Santa Claus secular or religious in nature?
And if so, why was Christmas made a Federal holiday when the U.S. Constitution says that “Congress shall make no LAW respecting an establishment of religion”?
December 22nd, 2011 @ 4:53 pm
Chuck,
Really simple: Check out the thread, and comment on that. If it’s about the deity of Jesus, great. If not, don’t inject that. Fair enough?
As for my personal beliefs, I personally don’t attend Christmas Eve or Christmas services. They are too “churchy” for me and I don’t relate to them in my own life — aside from thinking that many of the hymns are wonderful.
For those who decorate trees for seasonal fun, I have no problem with it. For those who associate this with a religious practice celebrating Jesus’ birthday, I take issue.
For those for whom the Christmas season is a wonderful time to celebrate Yeshua’s birth and they honor him with it — more power to them. For those who feel constrained not to for biblical or convictional reasons, more power to them.
For those who get into the greed of the season — shame on them, especially if they associate this with the birth of the Savior.
Those are my views.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 5:04 pm
Dr Brown
Fair enough but I honestly do not see how this topic does not touch on those Christological questions. Or do you disagree that most of Christendome celebrates the Incarnation as the Christmas story of how God became a human being?
Wish we could agree on the “churchisness” of other things like the one mentioned above.
December 22nd, 2011 @ 5:32 pm
Chuck,
Since we have shows devoted to subjects like the deity of Jesus, that’s our focus in those shows. This is focused on whether Christians should celebrate Christmas, not the theology of the incarnation, which I believe in because I’m a Jew and I embrace the witness of Scripture. Later Church opinion is quite secondary to me compared to the witness of Scripture.
December 23rd, 2011 @ 12:36 pm
Rachael,
If you check in please feel free (and I hope you will) to email me at:
info@calltohischurch.com
I’m hoping we can continue to communicate with each other. There are those in Israel that you may like to speak and work with and I’ll give you their names and how to reach them.
Be well,
Sheila
December 23rd, 2011 @ 6:00 pm
December 23rd, 2011 @ 6:02 pm
oops…this should be how it was supposed to post.
“Why do you think the Orthodox are still stumbling over the Chief Cornerstone today? Exactly because of Col. 2:4 and Eph.[2:14-16],
How can you or any others who say “keep torah” read this any other way than how it’s written?!
You’re hiding cards in your sleeve, Bo!
You’re resurrecting the hostility.”-Sheila
Me thinks that you misunderstand Ephesians 4 just like you do not understand Colossians 2. I wrote the following a while back. See if it helps you to understand what the “middle wall of partition” is.
We have an indication that the Church will become a harlot by the end. We have many parables that indicate that corruption will abound in those that are called to join Y’shua’s government/kingdom of heaven. We have the spirit if Anti-Messiah working from the beginning. We have Jewish religious leaders adding to scripture both then and now. We have Church leaders destroying writings in Hebrew. We have whole groups of people persecuted into extinction. We have the power plays of the Roman Church. There is a lot more of history that would point to corruption in the leaders of Judaism and Christianity than Purity…at least in those that had the time and money/power to sit around and write decrees and dogma and the influence to enforce it.
As for the righteous remnant that has never been large, they tend to be humble doers of the word to the best of their ability. They tend to not go with the flow of the religion that is in power at the time. Political power and religion, when they are mixed, bring forth all kinds of persecution and false doctrine. These powerful religious establishments hide the truth and propagate lies on many fronts. They are protecting themselves and their existence, not standing for truth. Even us little guys fall into this sort of thing in our little kingdoms. How much more in the Talmud’s rabbis and Church fathers. What about the writings that they have left out because they did not fit with their scheme of things? I am not speaking of scripture here, but of their contemporaries.
I cannot argue from silence. I can only glean, from the scripture alone, those things that show a different light than both establishments’ tainted teachings. The Jewish rabbi’s took away the key of knowledge, led the blind into the ditch, and made YHWH’s commandments of none effect. The Church fathers made up a new religion that mixed paganism with belief in Messiah. Do you really trust these two groups of people’s history? Why do they disagree…even in the number of years from creation? They cannot both be correct. So which do you want me to trust?
So let us compare scripture with scripture. Let’s try to let the scripture define its own words and ideas. Let’s see if we can bury the lies that we have inherited from our fathers. I ask you to back up a few steps and forget about the emotionally charged ideas that cause us to balk at believing and doing just what the scripture indicates. Let’s lay down the rhetoric that says, “How can they all be wrong?” and “What about Smith Wigglesworth and David Wilkerson?” I like those men, and have learned from both, but they can be wrong too. As Andrew Womack, another man with a last name starting with a “W” says, “God has not had a qualified man working for Him yet…except one.”
Only the scripture is pure. It does not contradict itself. If we look to it alone for the words of truth and look to YHWH’s Spirit to lead us into all truth…oops was that part spoken to the apostles that were all Jews…I guess we gentiles cannot claim that one…do you see what I mean? Can we really believe that only 4 things from the Torah are all the gentiles ever have to do? Can they kill and steal and have unjust weights and measures and commit perjury, and be witches and boil a kid in its mothers milk? Are YHWH’s rules for Israel just some quirky rituals that make them look and act funny? Or are they revelation as to what true love for our Elohim and our fellow human being looks like? Are they revelation as to what will bring life and blessing, or are they outdated and will only work in a small middle eastern country where people still wear robes with four corners?
What about the “righteous gentiles”? If they are already righteous, do they need to accept Messiah? Or are they righteous if they just do the 4 things and accept Messiah? Or do the 4 things have another purpose than making them righteous? Or can anyone do anything to be righteous? Or is none righteous, no not one? Or can we grow in righteous actions? Or do we just make sure to be diligent in the 4 things? Or do we add 9 of the 10 commandments to our list? Or do we just do our own personal versions of the two commandments plus the 4? Or do we join a mainline denomination and not have to worry about it anymore? Or do we put our right shoe on first and use a two handled cup to wash our hands before we eat and wear black clothes? Or do we come to church in our underwear with paint on our faces and tattoos just above our buttocks showing, and call ourselves Christians that are free from the old law? Or do we just be kind and let everybody do their own thing and let it all work out in the end? Or do we look into YHWH’s perfect law and become more and more righteous in our thoughts and actions by adjusting to His instructions on righteous and holy living?
The saddest thing is that most born again Christians do most of the Torah, but balk at the very things that YHWH calls holiness. We have reduced holiness to morality. The scripture does not teach this. Yes, we should be Biblically moral, but the NT calls us to cleanness, and to perfect holiness in flesh and spirit. The definitions of these type of things is in the scripture, but we ignore them because we have been taught to use the OT as a history book instead of using like Paul told Timothy to do.
I find your statements about Paul’s instructions to Timothy to be quite absurd. Do you really think that Timothy was to learn how to act righteously and what good works to do from the TNK and teach something different to the congregation? Am I to believe that “man of God” only means Jews? Am I to understand that “profitable for doctrine” is only for Jews? Am I to believe that Timothy had an all Jewish congregation? Will it only be Jews that “will not endure sound doctrine” that comes from the TNK? Is it really that the TNK “throughly furnish[es] unto all good works” only those that are of the tribe of Judah and that it gives way too much information to the grafted in gentile?
2 Timothy 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
To be continued.
December 23rd, 2011 @ 6:03 pm
Continued from above.
I think that you have a man-made artificial construct in regard to the separation of the Jew and gentile in the body of Messiah. Can we look into the scripture together to see what it says without bringing preconceived ideas to the table? Probably not, but let’s try.
Ephesians 2
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Who had been transgressing what? Gentiles were included in this congregation. There is no transgression where there is no law. (Rom.4:15) Sin is the transgression of the law. (1Jo3:4) Every mouth is stopped because they are guilty of breaking YHWH’s law. (Rom 3:19) Those that obey Torah are not sinners and those that do not are. (Gal 2:15)
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Disobedient to what? The law is for the lawless and disobedient…it shows that we are disobedient and therefore what to obey. (1Tim 1:9) Please note the words uncleanness, filthiness, unclean person and concupiscence in these passages describing children of disobedience. (Eph 5:3-7; Col 3:4-7) Disobedient to parents…commandment #5.(Rom 1:29-32;Tim 3:1-5)
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
“We all” must mean that both Jew and Gentile are included.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
“Together”? Both Jew and Gentile are to be in positions of authority in Messiahs government/kingdom. The great in the kingdom do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments.(Mat 5:19)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Justification/salvation does not come from keeping the Torah, but those that believe are to do the good works described therein. Real grace produces obedience. Our salvation and faith/faithfulness is in common. The same law applies to both. (2Cor 9:8; Tit 2:11-15; 3:7-8; Jude 3-4)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Gentiles start out without any inheritance in Israel, with no part in the covenants (plural), without hope and without Elohim. But…
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Now we have all that we did not, including the covenants. These covenants include stipulations and rules. There is no middle wall of partition in the Torah except the one that specifies that a gentile must be circumcised to eat of the Passover lamb. (Exo 12:48-49). There is no other partition in Torah. We know that circumcision was a big part of the issue in Acts 15 and Galatians. We also know that our Passover has been sacrificed for us and that we partake of Him in spirit with circumcised hearts. (1Cor 5:7-8) The only other wall of partition is manmade. Commandments contained in the thousands of ordinances of Judaism. Without these there is peace and community between Jew and Gentile. Peter had to learn this. He was still holding onto tradition that separated Jew and Gentile. (Acts 10:28) There is no law in Torah that says that a Jew could not enter a gentiles house or that they couldn’t eat with them. Peter even fell back into this segregation idea. (Gal 2:11-14) We can eat together, if we do not have to use a two handled cup to wash our hands with or worry about rabbinic kosher intricacies. We can go into each other’s houses, if we lay down the traditions, doctrines and commandments of men that turn from the truth. (Col 2:18-23; Mat 15:2-9; Tit 1:14-16)
Messiah stripped the authority from the Jewish religious leaders. (Col 2:15-16) All power is His now. We do not have to listen to the Judaizers that say we need to be circumcised and keep their version of the law of Moses with all its manmade commandments, but a “man of Elohim” learns from the TNK what is acceptable to YHWH and puts those good works into practice. He lives by every word of YHWH.
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
We are not strangers or foreigners. We are fellow citizens with the chosen people; with those that walk in the holiness that is set out in the scripture. The holiness commandments haven’t changed. We should not be ignorant of these “be ye holy for I am holy” scriptures. We should be obedient children. We should throw away the “vain conversation received by tradition from our fathers.”(1 Pet 1:14-23 Lev 11;1-47; 17:10-20:26) Without holiness we will not see YHHW. (Heb 12:14)
To be continued.
December 23rd, 2011 @ 6:04 pm
Continued from above.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
How can we believe that the words of Messiah and His apostles and the prophets (Writers of the TNK) are not for us. They are our foundation. We are one body. We have the same faith and the same rules of practicing that faith. We are supposed to be a HOLY temple, not a whatever we each want to do temple. It is only holy if it is built out of holy people. The people are only holy if they submit themselves to YHWH’s instructions on holiness. It is there for us to read. If we neglect it, we will not perfect holiness.
2 Corinthians 6
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
We need to come out of all the man-made ideas. They are lies that we inherited from our Church fathers and our rabbinical fathers. Cleansing of both the flesh and spirit are important. We find the instructions on clean and unclean in Torah. Do we not fear YHWH as we should? Do we think that He will receive us if we do not apply ourselves to perfecting holiness after we have come out from among unclean people? Can we continue in the unclean practices as long as we have come out?
Will we be His priests if we do not know how to judge between clean and unclean? If we do not know and practice what is in His word about these things?
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Ezekiel 22
25 There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed difference between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Ezekiel 44
23 And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24 And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
Malachi 3
13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee?
14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? {ordinance: Heb. observation} {mournfully: Heb. in black}
15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered. {are set up: Heb. are built}
16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. {jewels: or, special treasure}
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Our words have been stout against Him, if we have said that there is no profit in keeping His ordinances. Can we really discern between the righteous and wicked? Or will be rejected as being His priests?
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
With this background, how is it that we decide to keep Xmas and not keep YHWH’s holy days?
Shalom
December 23rd, 2011 @ 6:54 pm
The post above should have said Ephesians 4, not Ephesians 2 at the beginning of the second paragraph.
Shabbat Shalom
December 23rd, 2011 @ 11:57 pm
Bo, keep the focus on Christmas.
December 24th, 2011 @ 2:23 am
Bo can you email us at chanan7@gmail.com
Some friends of mine that read your post would like to talk some more.
December 24th, 2011 @ 2:42 am
My Husband who was born in Israel, found Y’shua in the United states. I ask him what he would say to the christmas issue if he were talking here.
AND I quote:
WHO told them to celebrate the birth on Dec. 25th? NO where in the bible does it tell us to celebrate the birth. However, the birth of Y’shua would have been on one of the appointed times found on the biblical calendar. Why Dec. 25th instead? Why not another date that is not connected to paganism? Someone else has ESTABLISHED this date. Like mice in maze they willing repeat it and hand the lie down to their children indoctrinating them to worship on this date that BELONGS to a false GOD. This is NOT WORSHIP to the GOD of Abraham. But it is what WE as JEWS were warned against…NOT to adopt the ways or learn the ways of the Heathen/PAGANS!!!!
I don’t have a problem with anyone celebrating the birth. BUt I do have a problem with the date chosen to do it.
December 24th, 2011 @ 9:12 am
A friend made a good point about the Christmas Holiday
This year, please spare me and all your friends from all manner of “Christmas is pagan and evil in origin” and such arguments.
1) They are examples of the “genetic fallacy” and therefore are logically fallacious.
2) Most of the religious practices outlined in the Old Testament were practiced by pagans before they were practiced by the YHWH-worshippers in the Bible. If you want to use that line of arguing, you must be consistent. Sacrificing animals, drink and grain offerings, lighting candles, burning incense, dancing in worship, playing tambourines, believing in sea monsters, etc. were all done by pagans before they were done in the OT.
3) People put trees, decorations, lights, etc. in their home, give presents, bake cookies, sing songs, etc. all the time for aesthetic, cultural or other reasons and no one gets upset. Why is it so horrible if you do those things AND celebrate the birth of Jesus at the same time?
4) If someone wants to be excited about something as significant as the BIRTH OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, let them get excited and do it any way they want. There’s no need to be grumpy on twelve days of such exceeding joy.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
December 24th, 2011 @ 11:13 am
BenKC
I would say because one has NOTHING TO DO with the other. I have heard Dr Brown say that one of the arguments used is that Christians somehow “redeemed” or somehow cleansed those pagan practices by their addition of Christian symbols. But purging and adding are 2 different things. i.e., you add chlorine to purge clothing, you don’t just mix the dirty clothes with the clean.
I am still trying to get an answer to the questions I posted before. Also, why didn’t the Apostic church of the 1st century celebrate/observe the birth of their Messiah at all?!
December 24th, 2011 @ 11:44 am
Christmas really is the MOST wonderful time of the Year! I absolutely LOVE CHRISTMAS DAY. I am going to be baking Christmas cookies with my lovely daughter today. How joyful is that? Yummy too.
Then On Christmas Day we will go to church and worship and sing praises to the Lord. My whole family is going together. That is a blessing right there. Then I will go to my parent’s house and my brothers and sister and my cousins and their kids will be there too. We will eat and we have the BEST time singing Christmas songs together. I have joy in my heart right now just thinking about it. Lord you are so AWESOME!!!
So,
I will not miss out on celebrating my Lord and Savior’s birth with my family just because there are some who “complain” about Christmas, literally it is my most favorite time of the Year.
Have a great Christmas Everyone!
P.S.
Check out my latest “TOTAL SURRENDER” show. You can hear my friend Manny sing. (I love you Manny.) He is so annointed. He wrote the music and song. Its about 18 mins. into the show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V585CgIHA-o
Be Blessed all!
P.S.S.
Please share your Christmas Day celebration. Lets have some fun!!!
December 24th, 2011 @ 1:22 pm
DB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=schjf94NC0c
December 24th, 2011 @ 3:44 pm
Dr. Brown,
Thank you for discussing this issue. I appreciate the dialogue on this issue. Most Christians that I have dealt with are not even willing to look at this issue. Also once people are confronted with the origins of this holiday most simply say “that is not what it means today.” To me Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus or His word, so for the most part my beliefs align with your view on this. But I am not sure I understand how you can say,
“For those who decorate trees for seasonal fun, I have no problem with it. For those who associate this with a religious practice celebrating Jesus’ birthday, I take issue.
For those for whom the Christmas season is a wonderful time to celebrate Yeshua’s birth and they honor him with it — more power to them.”
What is the difference between those who celebrate Christmas as a religious practice of celebrating the birth of Christ and those who try to honor God with Christmas? Are you saying that you take issue with those who are just going through the motions, but if a person’s heart is to honor God, then it is ok? So are you saying that it is simply a heart issue?
Couldn’t the Jews of the OT simply have told the Lord that they were trying to honor God even though they were taking on the practices of the nations around them and trying to worship Him they way they saw fit?
This has been an issue that I continue to look at; I am just trying to get further clarification of how you see this and relate it to scripture.
Thank you!
December 24th, 2011 @ 8:18 pm
Ben KC,
A genetic fallacy is when we state that the heathen have altars and the temple has and altar, therefore the temple altar comes from false worship. It would not be a genetic fallacy if we say that the heathen have altars, therefore we should not make an altar like they do to worship YHWH…especially if YHWH told us not to do so.
Exodus 20
26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
The heathen built elevated altars with steps going up to them. They did many other things that were abominations. Holiness has to do with obeying instructions. I has to do with adjusting our lives to match up with YHWH’s version of being different. It has nothing to do with us inventing our own celebrations.
It is not a genetic fallacy if YHWH says not to learn the way of the heathen and He says not to worship Him the way the heathen worship their deities, but we still do it. That is called disobedience and rebellion.
Shalom
December 24th, 2011 @ 8:31 pm
Ben KC,
Since Churchianity decided to add to and take away from YHWH’s prescribed way and times of celebration, and those additions are composed of pagan methods, symbols and are celebrated on their special days, and since the subtractions make the commandment of YHWH of none effect, we do not have a genetic fallacy problem. We have a holiness problem. If we do it YHWH’s way on His special days we are holy to Him. If we do it on pagan days in pagan ways, we are holy to the pagan deity. If we make things up ourselves, our deity is our belly.
Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 12:14 am
Bo, its clearly genetic fallacy to keep arguing that Christmas celebration is pagan.
Then you would have to question the way they worshiped in the OT
“2) Most of the religious practices outlined in the Old Testament were practiced by pagans before they were practiced by the YHWH-worshippers in the Bible. If you want to use that line of arguing, you must be consistent. Sacrificing animals, drink and grain offerings, lighting candles, burning incense, dancing in worship, playing tambourines, believing in sea monsters, etc. were all done by pagans before they were done in the OT.”
December 25th, 2011 @ 10:24 am
Ben KC,
You are saying that that if a believer or a church adopts a pagan religious custom or symbol and uses it to worship YHWH that it is not wrong. This scripture shows you to be wrong.
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
I know the difference between genetic fallacy and adopting pagan worship practices. You seem to think that there is no difference. If you are correct then the passage above has no meaning now, nor did it ever. Please explain what the above passage could possibly mean in your view.
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 10:58 am
Is anyone looking or talking about GENesis 1:14 instead of talking about the LAW? — This is the only place that validates the “TODAY” relevance of this calendar. It is clearer than clear gets.
HE IS either the Passover Lamb or HE is not. Oh, do you want to throw out the Feast of Shavuot also? That is Pentecost the birth of the church. What do you want to do with that? If you throw those out then what do you have? NOT the REDEMPTIVE plan, but only worthless made up stuff. WHY, is that greater to the most of you? It is like the hearts of those who chose to build the golden calf after they had seen the miracles? Same thing. Those that took off to follow Y’shua did not take a detour they were eager to follow in HIS footsteps. The same thing Y’shua told the woman at the well is what we need to ponder. “Get out of paganville”…..wasn’t that HIS message to her? He told her she didn’t know what she was doing, WHY?
If you can listen to the Chanukah study (per history and scripture) done by Eddie Chumney. It is interesting to see how today the world is living under the decree of “greek/pagan rule” that Antiochus put upon the people. He wanted the people to forget about the sabbaths, the feast and anything that would keep the biblical calendar from the next generations. Rather he wanted the greek pagan stuff to RULE! That is history and scripture folks. Study it out for yourself. Another way satan has been successful in getting rid of (concealing, hiding) JEWISH blood and celebrations is when the catholic church (my own family in Germany) made or offered JEWS to convert to catholicism thus hiding/protecting them, BUT also getting rid of JEWS/JEWISH STUFF. Causing it to die out over the generations. WHAT is taken from one generation is LOST to the next and next and next……Example: I met a COHEN…I said laughingly…Your of the priestly tribe they are looking for you in Israel. His answer: I am not Jewish I am catholic. I said I am not talking religion…I am talking about DNA! He then told me he was Jewish. BUT you see what has happened…JEISH identity has been stolen and put in the shut-up mode–done away with like the BIBLICAL CALENDAR that GOD HIMSELF ordained to reveal HIMSELF! You are kept from seeing this and it is meant for you to miss it!
WHY hasn’t Dr.Brown spoke about this calendar I bring up??? He knows hebrew and no doubt can explain in depth from Genesis to Revelation about this calendar connection from foreshadows to fulfillments. NOT the way the orthodox do this calendar or even the messianics that don’t get it exactly correct per GOD’S set-up. Why not? THe messianics put the new year in the fall where did GOD put it on HIS calendar? THe messianics dress-up like halloween on purim. I have seen them dressed like even Jezebel. HOw does that commemorate that GREAT sotry of GOD’S redemption in the book of ESTHER? The whole story of praise to GOD is missed in these man made things. We read the story of Esther each year and can’t get enough of the Franklin film of Esther. It is the greatest story of GOD’S hand that is faithful to redeem. Why change that to another golden calf empty of REAL LIFE and TRUTH?????
BENKC…you would have to explain your point more.
It is not a secret that christ-mas is pagan. Still NO one has addressed why do this on the pagan DATE that was set up to celebrate another GOD? Why not just stick with the Biblical calendar? Why not?
Why another one instead? Who said?
GOD set up HIS appointment calendar in GEN. 1:14–(go to my fist post to read about that) and there is nothing pagan about that.
THe first FORESHADOW of the FEAST/APPOINTED TIME of “YOM kippur” was done when GOD shed the first blood, first animal sacrifice, and then used the skins to make clothing for Adam and Eve. WHO (?) later BECAME our blood covering fulfilling the LAW of animal sacrifices for attonement? Y’shua..the “LAMB” as JOHN called him! Do we still do animal sacrifices when we talk about the biblical calendar, Passover etc…? NO! We are celebrating that GOD HIMSELF IS our fulfilled, perfect and complete BLOOD covering/ATTONEMENT For our sins fulfilling the FORESHADOW law of animal sacrifices to attone for sins…….STOP repeating LIES….these are no longer PRACTICED as LAWS UNDER the Levitical system….they are EYE-OPENING REAL TIME BIBLICAL SCRIPTURE PROOF N.T. fulfillments! HE IS, HE DID, KEEP HIS APPOINTMENTS ON THAT GENESIS 1:14 calendar guys and girls. RIGHT? That is a yes or no answer.
We are not under the PRIESTLY levitical system anymore. Y’shua came thru the order of Melchizsedek. Only thru this order could HE be BOTH priest and king! Why do people keep talking about the LAW when talking about the biblical festivals verses the pagan ones? THe biblical calendar is not LAW they are fulfillments! GOD himself calls these HIS FEAST in Lev.! Where did he change that calendar becoming something that makes this appointment calendar obsolete?
Dr. Brown..if you are there..I am still scratching my head over your comments about Gen. 1:14 ? YOU know hebrew and can’t speak to this scripture as the only relevant place to start regarding the ever present day “REAL TIME” biblical calendar?
What does “mo-ed or Mo-edim” mean? THe other hebrew words there apply to.
Gen. 1:14
And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as SIGNS to mark SEASONS and DAYS and YEARS,
IS this LAW? NO, it is a calendar that GOD himself created to commemorate HIMSELF and by-the-way did fulfill, RIGHT? What was practiced in foreshadows for teaching a people to learn about GOD’s redemptive plan and be ready to recognize HIM when he showed up in the flesh> BUT they missed HIS visitation because they got off. Did the church body of 1 Thess 5 have to be told again how to celebrate Messiah? 1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
As far as LAW goes it is still not okay to murder, steal etc…so yes you are still under the law that GOD alone created…thankfully!
Let our conversation address this:
04150 mow`ed {mo-ade’} or mo`ed {mo-ade’} or (fem.) mow`adah
(2 Chr 8:13) {mo-aw-daw’}
from 03259; TWOT – 878b; n m
AV – congregation 150, feast 23, season 13, appointed 12, time 12,
assembly 4, solemnity 4, solemn 2, days 1, sign 1, synagogues 1; 223
1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
1a) appointed time
1a1) appointed time (general)
1a2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
1b) appointed meeting
1c) appointed place
1d) appointed sign or signal
1e) tent of meeting
December 25th, 2011 @ 11:39 am
Rachael,
To be clear, my schedule doesn’t permit me to interact with every thread here, so there are hundreds of posts addressing me that do not get a response. As for Gen 1, as I stated, I differ with your interpretation of the text with regard to Christians celebrating the birth of Yeshua.
Re: believers and the Torah, we have had many threads addressing this in depth, but the fact is that even you do not observe much of what is written in the Torah.
Having said that, I repeat: I am out of this thread entirely, Rachael, so feel free to post and continue the discussion, but I will not be interacting here myself. Blessings to you!
December 25th, 2011 @ 12:29 pm
Dr Brown
So its okay to delve into other subjects like Torah but not Christological matters pertaining to the Incarnation right? Interesting. :/
December 25th, 2011 @ 12:43 pm
Chuck, sorry if I wasn’t clear. I meant that Rachael should continue to post on the Christmas debate without expecting to hear from me, not that she (or Bo) should get into an argument about believers and Torah on this thread. All such discussion is welcomed in the relevant threads! (And if you’re feeling singled out, check out my recent interaction with Bo here and in the lengthy Answering the Rabbis thread.) Again, my apologies for not being more clear.
December 25th, 2011 @ 12:52 pm
Bo, your missing my point that Im bringing across on post #82.
December 25th, 2011 @ 12:57 pm
Ben KC,
You are failing to realize the difference between a genetic fallacy and adopting pagan aspects of worship. Do recognize the difference? If so, please explain how adding a pagan idea, festival date, religious custom, or symbol to the worship of YHWH is not against this:
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
If you do not recognize the difference…I guess you will have no answer.
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 1:01 pm
Chuck,
It is true. Dr. Brown is no respecter of persons. Do you see where Ben KC and I are not understanding each other?
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 1:54 pm
As stated by Dr. Brown,
As for Gen 1, as I stated, I differ with your interpretation of the text with regard to Christians celebrating the birth of Yeshua.
Clearly it is not my interpretation, it is the hebrew there and there is clearly no other calendar observed in the N.T. amongst beleivers.
Can you please Show me the scripture where they taught another calendar observance. Ruth left hers and no doubt the woman at the well left hers. THe ones who followed Y’shua left theres.
So if Y’shua was not born on a feast day/appointed time we turn to a pagan god date to celebrate HIS birthday knowing he warned us not to learn the ways of the heathen and that HE hates paganism?
Y’shua didn’t miss HIS Tabernacle visitation in the flesh. WHen was that? Looking from the scripture at GOD’S visitation at the Tabernacle in the wilderness, cloud by day and fire by night you can clearly see what happens all the way to the N.T. THe birth timing is a no brainer.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation (Y’shua) is of the Jews.
You avoid this: But It is Clearer than clear gets! HE did not tell her to stay and play on her pagan mountain. HE TOLD HER TO LEAVE her pagan ROOTS thus practices, origins and traditions.
You agree christians can call on the name of Y’shua/Jesus to recieve salvation, but after that they can or its okay to go their own way and embrace the traditions that can’t be found in scripture. YET can you tell them to find “SALVATION” in any other name? A pagan name?
What other things do we leave out for those who are GRAFTED into the Hebrew roots of salvation?
Y’shua didn’t say any of that to the woman at the well or in HIS ministry. HE clearly told her what to do. Since she was told to go to Jerusalem where the “REAL about HIM” was going on amongst believers, do you think there was a camp on one side doing pagan worship and a camp on the other side doing the feast/biblical calendar? Because that is the picture you paint and that is what you are teaching.
You also said:
Re: believers and the Torah, we have had many threads addressing this in depth, but the fact is that even you do not observe much of what is written in the Torah.
I think to suggest that I don’t keep or observe much of Torah is to suggest that I need to KEEP the law and deny the gift of salvation the whole reason why Y’shua came because none of us could keep the law/TORAH, but HIM ALONE…HE IS PERFECT TORAH! THat said, the Torah I keep and observe is HIS fulfillments the same as the early believers did. I also love the fact that GOD gave us some real good eating guidelines for health.
The appointed times are made clear who fulfilled them per scripture and that is the only thing we have as N.T. believers to celebrate and to follow in the footsteps of the Messiah and early church believers. THat is clearer than clear gets….
I expected far more from the leadership platform that you have been so blessed to hold on behalf of the Mashiach Ben David.
December 25th, 2011 @ 3:07 pm
Rachael,
I am out of this thread, but that does not permit you to misrepresent me (or anyone else here) or to engage in personal attacks (against me or anyone else), so feel free to continue posting, but please do step higher and please refrain from misrepresenting my position (or that of others). Thanks!
December 25th, 2011 @ 4:00 pm
Dr. Brown,
In response to YOUR statements:
Please explain how I miss represented you here when I copied and pasted your own comments to me?
Regarding personal attacks. I didn’t throw Romans 14 at you and I didn’t say to you that you didn’t come close to observing Torah. THose were your words to me. I would not use either as a reference. I think it gets off point and to me is accusing. That is not why I’m here. I had points to debate. I have not got one answer regarding those scriptures that can be referenced or validated thru the scripture.
December 25th, 2011 @ 4:12 pm
Rachael,
Would you kindly understand that I don’t have time to engage in discussion here? I do believe I’ve made myself entirely clear over and again.
As for misrepresenting me, you wrote (among other things), “You agree christians can call on the name of Y’shua/Jesus to recieve salvation, but after that they can or its okay to go their own way and embrace the traditions that can’t be found in scripture. YET can you tell them to find ‘SALVATION’ in any other name? A pagan name?”
What kind of utter nonsense is this?
As for Romans 14, no one threw that at you. I and others cited it because we believe it is relevant. As for you not keeping all of Torah, that’s not an accusation, it’s a statement of fact.
In any case, you seem to have difficulty understanding that I am not going to continue interacting here. For the last time, I’m simply requesting that you drop the discussion here. All clear?
I wish you God’s grace, Rachael, and with that, we are done. Rather than having our moderators flag your comments, I’m simply asking you to move on from this interaction with me. Is that too much to ask
December 25th, 2011 @ 4:28 pm
I will in fact abide by what you have ask.
Sadly I still did not get a straight answer. THe above one was not an answer period! It was only more of the same detours.
Shalom Dr. Brown
December 25th, 2011 @ 4:29 pm
Bo, Merry Christmas.
December 25th, 2011 @ 4:32 pm
Ben KC,
That’s what I thought Ben…you have no answer.
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 5:01 pm
Shalom Rachael! And no detours here; only differences.
December 25th, 2011 @ 5:04 pm
Bo, if this is your way of responding to people to make yourself feel superior, go right ahead. Its a condescending and judgmental response. This is one of the reasons why I try not to debate with you further. I do have my answers, but I have my personal reasons why I dont respond to you on different occasions. I have no problem with your disagreement against Christmas but you should be graceful in your response.
December 25th, 2011 @ 6:11 pm
Ben KC,
No condescension intended. My response has nothing to do with making myself feel superior. You saying such is certainly a cut down. And it is judgmental of you to tell me what I should do.
If you see a difference between genetic fallacy and disobeying the passage I quoted, spell it out for us. Just don’t claim something is what you say without proof. Your the one that brought up topic. You should defend your stance or admit that you are wrong. I have given you much grace in trying to explain the difference between what you call genetic fallacy and rebellion. I have asked for an explanation from you multiple times and you have given no response. That is not polite or graceful…is it?
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 7:13 pm
@Rachel, so are you saying every Missionary around the world must say ‘Yeshua’ or else they’re doing false conversions and everyone will go to hell as a result?
December 25th, 2011 @ 9:50 pm
David,
I have no idea how you got that from what I said. I would fear GOD to be such a person of those words.
We are only held accountable for what we know and then for what we do with what we know. I called on the name “Jesus” to be saved at 19 years of age and HE (Y’shua) answered me.
HOwever, many years later is when I went to a Chanukah service and felt so at home. I learned THEN that the Jesus I knew was a JEW> I had never been taught that since it was lost in my family and they certainly weren’t talking about it in church. I was drawn to know HIM in the light of HIS Jewishness and what all that meant. I began to see the Hebrew roots from the scriptures and I could never turn back to what I had previously known or had been taught. Because most of it was built on lies and the church didn’t want anything to do with the jewish Jesus.
Shalom
December 25th, 2011 @ 9:57 pm
FYI…For anybody who is interested in some good study material.
Scroll down and you will see the links
http://www.hebroots.com/paganism.htm
December 25th, 2011 @ 10:24 pm
For the record, I do not recommend the website just referenced in the previous post.
December 25th, 2011 @ 11:06 pm
My thoughts on the Messianic movement,
In my humble honest opinion, the strength of the Messianic movement is getting back to Biblical faith and dropping off the baggage left over from Rome, but its greatest weakness is the amount of uneducated ‘teachers’ heaping up followers to themselves with little or no actual working knowledge of authentic Biblical Hebrew and of the strategies and devices of the Enemy. Before trying to drop of baggage from Rome, it’s crucial that we study the history of the Church in the first and second centuries and learn the Bible carefully, and acknowledge all the heresies and apocryphal writings falsely attributed to the Apostles. Otherwise, we’re in danger of leaving Rome to embrace Gnosticism or other lies of the enemy.
There’s so many leaders in the Messianic movement teaching people Hebrew inaccurately (Yahushua/Yehuwa/etc.) and stirring up hatred against Constantinian Christians, even though they have leaven in their faith, they’re still our brothers and sisters in Messiah, even if they don’t fully realise how he’s a Jew.
I wish more Messianics would meditate on this passage:
Satan loves it when we attack each other and Yeshua is quoted in the Hebrew Gospel as saying, one of the greatest sins is, “To grieve the spirit of one’s brother,” and “And never be joyful except when you look on your brother with love.”
And even if the Constantinians call me names and personally attack me, I will try (though sometimes I regrettably have failed) to not repay evil for evil, but be longsuffering and treat them as family. If Messianics truly have the truth, they need to take the high ground even at the most difficult of times. This is the goal I attempt to reach.
December 26th, 2011 @ 12:59 am
Ben KC,
Below is a definition I found online concerning genetic fallacies.
“The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, unless its past in some way affects its present value. For instance, the origin of evidence can be quite relevant to its evaluation, especially in historical investigations. The origin of testimony—whether first hand, hearsay, or rumor—carries weight in evaluating it.”-from: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
As you can see, if we simply say that it wrong to have a birthday celebration for Messiah because the the first birthday party was pagan we have a classic genetic fallacy.
If we could show, however, that celebrating birthdays is wrong according to scripture we do not have genetic fallacy. If we could show that the 12 Apostles, since they were given authority by Messiah to “bind or loose” (censor or permit) worship practices, didn’t sanction such things we would not have a genetic fallacy. If we could show that the dates, symbols or rites come from paganism AND that there is a prohibition in scripture to use such things in our worship of YHWH we would not have a genetic fallacy. If we could show that it is wrong, according to scripture, to add to or take away from the prescribed methods or dates of worship and/or the reasons for celebrations, we do not have a genetic fallacy.
We read in the quote above: “It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, UNLESS its past in some way affects its present value.”
It is not fallacious to condemn Xmas if its past in some way affects its present value. Does its past affect its present value? If scripture and the practices of the earliest believes has any bearing on the subject, then yes. Does the Roman Church have the authority to proclaim a religious festival? Is that not adding to YHWH’s prescribed holy days? Did the apostles celebrate the birth of Messiah or even tell us when it was? Did the early church approve of birthday celebrations? Did Messiah tell us to do something special on His birthday? Did the date come from pagan religion? Do the traditions come from pagan festivals?
There are many more questions to ask.
Shalom
December 26th, 2011 @ 5:48 am
Flesh and blood can not inherited the Kingdom of God. There will be NO nationalities up in Heaven.
People got to stop living by the flesh, which can not save them. But to start to live by the spirit. Which is by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:13-15
13 But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ.
14 For Christ himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when, in his own body on the cross, he broke down the wall of hostility that separated us. 15 He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in himself one new people from the two groups.
Condemnation is not from God but from Satan.
Thank you Father God and my Savior Jesus for a blessed Christmas.
Love you Lord. You are THE BEST!!!!
December 26th, 2011 @ 6:09 am
@Debbie,
I agree 100% that fallen mortal flesh will in no way inherit on the new earth which we will live on forevermore. The reality remains that there will be,
The sheep, who do, with humble obedient circumcised hearts, enter through the twelve tribal gates of Israel, but the goats who butt, with uncircumcised hearts, are not allowed through the twelve gates for the tribes of Israel.
For the record, I’m not saying who exactly are the sheep and the goats, but Yeshua knows.
December 26th, 2011 @ 6:57 am
Amen David. Amen!!
December 26th, 2011 @ 9:14 am
David Roberts, I very much appreciate your non-judgmental, unity-loving comments. I would simply avoid the term “Constantinian Christians,” since it assumes a lot, it too broad, and itself is potentially judgmental. What do you think? (I absolutely recognize the damage done by Constantine; I also recognize that there were many practices in place long before Constantine, and many of them are neutral or even positive.)
December 26th, 2011 @ 9:15 am
DR. Brown,
Can you please explain to everyone why you don’t recommend the website that I provided?
If we are to avoid this site please tell us why.
Todah
December 26th, 2011 @ 10:43 am
Rachael,
The website advocates (and/or is sympathetic to) the Two House Theory, and it calls all believers, Jew and Gentile alike, to observe Torah. I’m sure there are things I agree with on the site, but just these two are enough for me to encourage people not to use it, especially when those are major tenets of the website.
December 26th, 2011 @ 12:48 pm
racheal
The Dutch theologian, Ridderbos, whom every serious student of Paul should read (Paul, An Outline of His Theology, London: SPCK, 1977, pp. 284-285), noted that Paul did not consider himself to be “under the law,” but “bound by the law of Christ” (I Cor. 9:21):
December 26th, 2011 @ 1:34 pm
Chuck,
As you know, when you brought up the subject of the deity of the Messiah on the most recent “Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis” thread, I said that it was off topic, only for it to lead to a massive discussion on that topic with a couple of rabbis and others. I have been trying to steer things back on topic there, but if you want to interact with the rabbis on that thread — not trying to persuade other believers about your views but rather sharing your views with the rabbis — I certainly don’t want to exclude you from doing that. So, the door is re-opened to you should you choose to go through it, my only request being that for the sake of the thread, you at least stay on topic with addressing the rabbis about the Messiah (which, I understand, in your mind, means a rejection of God’s tri-unity).
December 26th, 2011 @ 1:42 pm
Chuck,
Your Dutch theologian misrepresents Paul’s meaning in Colossians 2 and Ephesians 4.
Lets look at the context and some definitions.
Colossians 2
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[These verses are sandwiched between the “principalities and powers” verses. The first of those two verses lets us know that Y’shua is the head of all authorities. The second is speaking specifically about His triumph over the religious authorities in the realm of Judaism and that He openly proved their rulings to be manmade traditions of men that turn from the truth. Where do we stand in all of this? We are complete in Him. His wisdom and knowledge is everything we need to know.
In verse eleven we are told about our spiritual circumcision. As Paul says, “Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law, But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. (Rom. 2:26-27, 29) Our circumcised hearts want to do what YHWH asks of us. We were dead because we were not in covenant with YHWH (uncircumcision of our flesh) and because our transgressions of His law (sins). With this new heart, we submit to the act of baptism, and by so doing we announce our loyalty to Messiah and YHWH. “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” (1 Pet. 3:21-22) Peter gives a second witness to the idea that our baptism puts us in a place where our allegiance is directly to the Head of all principality and power. This is why verse 16 of Colossians 2 says that we are to let no man judge us. “Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.” (1 Cor. 7:23)
Now, our hearts being purified by faith and with our desire to please YHWH, we are alive because of the forgiveness of our trespasses. Verse fourteen tells us, in legal terms, how this forgiveness was accomplished. The phrase, “handwriting of ordinances” in the Greek world of Paul’s day was the equivalent of an IOU. This term was also used in the court system for the official written charges against the defendant. This term was not used to mean the “body of law” or “legal requirements.” Literally, our “certificate of debt” (whether to a creditor or the community) was canceled…”blotted out.” All the charges against us and our debt to YHWH and mankind, because of our sins, were nailed to the execution stake when Y’shua took our guilt upon Himself.
YHWH’s law was not “nailed to the cross” as some modern, Christian principalities and powers emphatically state. It was the record of our transgressions of His law that were dealt with. Messiah did not forgive us our trespasses by doing away with the law, as that would be the same as making sin not be sin anymore. And we know that the very same things that were wrong before we came to faith are still wrong. If we read verse 14 in such a way as to nullify YHWH’s perfect law, we end up doing the same thing that the Jewish principalities and powers were doing by their interpretation of the law. “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.” (Mark 7:13) We also contradict Y’shua’s direct statement: “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.” (Mat. 5:17)]
This can seem overwhelming to us, if we have grown up being taught differently. We can be cured. We can become doers of the word. We can renew our minds in YHWH’s Torah and present our bodies as obedient children, becoming living sacrifices. “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Rom. 12:1-2)
It is simple, but it is not easy. It is difficult to stand in opposition to the traditions and commandments of men…especially of men we love and have been close to…of men that are our family…of men that have been our pastors and teachers. But we will be given the words to say when we are brought before our modern day “principalities and powers.” We may not convince them, but they will run out of truly scriptural arguments. It is difficult to get out of old ways of thinking and to stop participating in our old ways of doing things. Habits die hard, but we have been given the Spirit of Grace who empowers us to change. We have been given the ability to truly love YHWH with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength…by keeping His commandments. That is how love for YHWH expresses itself.
“Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;” (Deut. 7:9) “And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul…” (Deut. 11:3) “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” (John 14:15) “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.” (1 John 5:3) “Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.” Rev. 14:12)
The saints, those that are sanctified (set apart) to YHWH, are called to keep their faith in Y’shua AND to keep YHWH’s commandments. To do one or the other does not wholly sanctify us. We must be sanctified (made holy) in both flesh and spirit. “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Cor. 7:1) “Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Heb. 12:14) It is our call to cleanse ourselves in both areas by faith and works. Real faith always produces works. What we truly believe, we demonstrate to all by what we do. (Jam. 2:17-19) A faith in Y’shua that does not produce commandment keeping is either a false faith or an uninformed faith. We are not supposed to remain ignorant or unfaithful. We are to grow up and go on to perfection/maturity.
15 And having spoiled principalities (Strong’s #746) and powers (Strong’s #1849), he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[What is the “therefore” there for in verse 16? It is showing that the men that were in leadership (principalities and powers), having been shown to be insubordinate and that were subsequently unseated, do not have any authority to rule in matters of scriptural observance. (Mat.21:23-46) We are warned again to “Let no man judge” us BECAUSE of what Y’shua did to prove the absurdity of the religious leaders’ ideas of what constituted obedience in these areas. YHWH’s scriptural observances are not to be contaminated or replaced by man’s worldly principles, traditions and philosophies. We are to adhere to the “wisdom and knowledge” of Messiah and YHWH.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many commandments of men to the “knowledge of YHWH.” Y’shua had made these authorities look like fools in reprimanding them about their ideas… especially concerning food and drink, and Sabbaths…not to mention many other topics. He truly “triumphed over them” in a very public and humiliating way in these confrontations. Thus we read, “…neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.” (Mat.22:46) Though He rebuked the “principalities and powers” concerning their manmade rules, He continued to keep Torah perfectly and He did not teach His disciples to do anything differently than He was doing. He sanctified Himself by keeping YHWH’s commandments and expected this lifestyle, void of manmade additions, to be the sanctification of His disciples and the sanctification of those that would believe through their word. (John 17:17-20) He did not come to make the law void. (Mat. 5:17-19) He did not die an agonizing death in our place because of our transgressions of YHWH’s perfect law, just to allow us to continue in transgression of YHWH’s instructions. He came to give us a new start, a new spirit, a new heart, along with the ability to obey YHWH.
To be continued.
December 26th, 2011 @ 1:42 pm
Continued from above.
We also should not to listen to the manmade ideas of modern religious, even Christian, men in regard to how to, or whether to, keep YHWH’s feasts, new moons and Sabbaths…which happen to be part of YHWH’s perfect Torah…His oracles…His basic principles/rudiments. We are to cast down the arguments/imaginations of men that are contrary to the straight forward commands of scripture. When we submit to man’s ideas, instead of to the teaching of scripture, we are beguiled of our reward for obedience. So the exhortation stands…we are not to be intimidated into adhering to man’s additions to or subtractions from YHWH’s commandments. (Deut. 4:2; 12:32) “Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…” (Rom. 6:16) Basically, we serve, and are thus sanctified (set apart) to the one whose ideas we accept and practice. Our loyalties reveal to us our hearts’ secrets that might otherwise go unnoticed because of our hearts’ deceitful ways. (Jer. 17:9) “We ought to obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29) “Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.” (1 Cor. 7:23)]
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
[The Greek behind this verse has some interesting nuances. First, the holy days and Sabbaths to which this verse refers ARE shadows. It does not say “were shadows” as if these things are to be relegated to the past. It does not say, “These things are mere shadows” or “are only shadows.” Second, there is no “is” in the Greek in this verse. This is shown by it being in italics in the KJV. Paul is speaking of “the body of Messiah,” just as this phrase is translated throughout the rest of scripture. He is not saying that “the substance (or reality) is of (or belongs to) Christ.” The Greek word for “body” simply and only means “body” not “substance” or “reality.” Third, the word “but” is a Greek word that can as easily be translated “and.” This becomes mandatory when the translators’ added “is” is removed. Some translators, translating in a way that supports their preconceived ideas, take unjustified liberties when rendering this verse. The KJV comes the closest to the Greek, but still has the two small problems listed above. A literal translation would read, “Which are a shadow of things to come and the body of Messiah.”
So, the holy days and Sabbaths are prophetic celebrations of future encounters of YHWH with the body of Messiah. They are rehearsals of our betrothal and wedding to Messiah and our anniversaries, so to speak. They are shadows of us, as Messiah’s body, and what will happen to us or with us in the future. We know from other passages in scripture that the celebrations of YHWH are commemorations of His dealings with His people in the past, but Paul gives us this second reason to “respect” or keep these holy days. There is a consistent pattern in the storyline of scripture that demonstrates how YHWH shows up on these exact days to interact with His chosen people…His bride…His body. Y’shua was sacrificed on Passover, ascended as the First Fruits from the dead on the exact holy day, and poured His Spirit out on Pentecost. The fall feast days are also pictures of Messiah’s redemptive work. Though these days commemorate other past interactions, we evidently, according to Paul, still have future fulfillments to look forward to and to celebrate.
The Jewish “principalities and powers” had added many traditions and commandments to the pure word of YHWH concerning the celebration of these set apart/holy days of YHWH. This may well be the reason that their Messiah and His fulfillment of these days were obscured from their sight. They had made them into Jewish holidays instead of keeping them as YHWH’s holy days. This would be a good reason not to let men and their ideas be our guide/judge of how to “respect” these days. When we are true to the scriptures regarding these days, we maintain them in the holy status that they were designed to hold. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” (Exod. 20:8) “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.” (Lev. 23:2)
Ephesians 4
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Justification/salvation does not come from keeping the Torah, but those that believe are to do the good works described therein. Real grace produces obedience. Our salvation and faith/faithfulness is in common. The same law applies to both. (2Cor 9:8; Tit 2:11-15; 3:7-8; Jude 3-4)
Ephesians 4
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Gentiles start out without any inheritance in Israel, with no part in the covenants (plural), without hope and without Elohim. But…
Ephesians 4
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Now we have all that we did not, including the covenants. These covenants include stipulations and rules. There is no middle wall of partition in the Torah except the one that specifies that a gentile must be circumcised to eat of the Passover lamb. (Exo 12:48-49). There is no other partition in Torah. We know that circumcision was a big part of the issue in Acts 15 and Galatians. We also know that our Passover has been sacrificed for us and that we partake of Him in spirit with circumcised hearts. (1Cor 5:7-8) The only other wall of partition is manmade. Commandments contained in the thousands of ordinances of Judaism. Without these there is peace and community between Jew and Gentile. Peter had to learn this. He was still holding onto tradition that separated Jew and Gentile. (Acts 10:28) There is no law in Torah that says that a Jew could not enter a gentiles house or that they couldn’t eat with them. Peter even fell back into this segregation idea. (Gal 2:11-14) We can eat together, if we do not have to use a two handled cup to wash our hands with or worry about rabbinic kosher intricacies. We can go into each other’s houses, if we lay down the traditions, doctrines and commandments of men that turn from the truth. (Col 2:18-23; Mat 15:2-9; Tit 1:14-16)
Messiah stripped the authority from the Jewish religious leaders. (Col 2:15-16) All power is His now. We do not have to listen to the Judaizers that say we need to be circumcised and keep their version of the law of Moses with all its manmade commandments, but a “man of Elohim” learns from the TNK what is acceptable to YHWH and puts those good works into practice. He lives by every word of YHWH.
Ephesians 4
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
We are not strangers or foreigners. We are fellow citizens with the chosen people; with those that walk in the holiness that is set out in the scripture. The holiness commandments haven’t changed. We should not be ignorant of these “be ye holy for I am holy” scriptures. We should be obedient children. We should throw away the “vain conversation received by tradition from our fathers.”(1 Pet 1:14-23 Lev 11;1-47; 17:10-20:26) Without holiness we will not see YHHW. (Heb 12:14)
Shalom
December 26th, 2011 @ 5:23 pm
Please explain Chuck. It seems the word “LAW” again is getting in the way of the meaning of the Appointed times in fulfillments and commemorations. THESE are NOT laws. THey were created in Gen 1:14 before man was created or before laws were created…IT IS Y’shuas appointments with men..has he kept that calendar alone? IS he the Passover lamb, our unleaven/sinnless sacrifice, the firstfruits of all living things…all men died in Adam but all men live in Messiah…is this scripture? This is all FOUND in scripture. Provide the scriptures that support the pagan calendar from Rome. PLease!
Y’shua fulfilled the letter of the law…BUT these are not LAWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! These appointed times are HIM!!!! Is HE the PAssover Lamb slain for our sins????? IF yes why are you trying to do away with that appointed time? Why do you want to replace it with a made-up holiday that you can’t even find in the scripture.
Is Y’shua called the Lamb by John? Is Y’shua called the Passover Lamb in scripture anywhere? There you have it! IT IS NOT LAW…we are talking about HIM ALONE!!!!
Quit repeating what you have learned from our world that hates JEWS….GO to the scriptures and find HIM in HIS hebrew clothes.
DO you want the trumpet to sound to call the believers home? Well that would be the appointed time “Feast of Trumpets”. DO you believe in Pentecost…Well that is the Feast of Shavuot! The birth of the church. Throw it all out and what is left…Well I quess paganism!
December 26th, 2011 @ 8:58 pm
@Dr. Brown,
“I very much appreciate”
I try. I noticed you go out of your way on your radio show to do the same, and I appreciate that too.
“I would simply avoid the term “Constantinian Christians,” since it assumes a lot, it too broad, and itself is potentially judgmental. What do you think?”
Honestly, I picked up the word from a Messianic friend who talked about all the things Constantine instituted and how these Christians keep them all. But you’re right, and I receive that correction, and I’ll try and find a more honest and clear term for them.
“I absolutely recognize the damage done by Constantine; I also recognize that there were many practices in place long before Constantine, and many of them are neutral or even positive.”
Understood, and if you mean that there are some Church customs that Messianics fight against that were actually Apostolic, I would agree. The problem is its very hard to verify these things. I would just say that I have a theory that governs how I interpret early Church history documents. I call it proximity theory. Simply put, those who spent more time with the Apostles, knew the faith better than those that didn’t get as much time with them. And though the Apostle Paul ended up in Rome, the general pattern of the NT was that the Apostles traveled primarily throughout Asia Minor – much of it in Turkey. The seven letters of משיח were all written to Turkey too. The Jerusalem Church traveled heavily around Asia, so I trust those Christian communities a lot more than that of Rome, which is quite far removed, which would limit how much disciplining and teaching they would receive from them. So when I read something like this:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf201.iii.x.xxv.html
I apply that theory to it.
Some other sources to that are:
Athanasius, lived in 296-373 CE, and in his Synodal Letter to the Bishops of Africa, we find:
Jerome acknowledges that:
What’s interesting is this custom, that was so wide spread throughout all Asia, to my knowledge was wiped out, by Rome and Islam, which speaks volumes about the legitimacy of customs of the modern Churches in Asia.
December 27th, 2011 @ 12:07 am
The Bible holidays/Appointed times/Festivals were commemorated by Y’shua and His apostles – and continued to be observed by Y’shuas’ followers in the first century even after His death and resurrection.
The early believers in Y’shua, BOTH Jew and Gentile (ONE) celebrated the Resurrection in the CONTEXT of the Passover: Matthew 26; Mark 14; Luke 2, 22; John 2, 6, 11, 12, 13, 18, 19; Acts 12:4; 1 Corinthians 5:7.
December 27th, 2011 @ 12:56 am
Why is it different today? Why is the church different today?
Why isn’t the information found in scripture enough to convince a believer that we have been lied to?
Isn’t Jeremiah convincing enough? He talks in a future tense.
Jeremiah 16:19 the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
Zechariah talks in future tense:
We will be, future tense, still using the Biblical calendar created in Genesis 1:14…..Per Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to”"”" keep the feast of tabernacles”"”"”.
What does “learn not” mean?
Jeremiah 10:2 LEARN NOT the way of the heathen.
HIS word is clear and speaks for itself clearly.
December 27th, 2011 @ 7:28 am
Rachel, define heathen please
December 27th, 2011 @ 7:35 am
Meaning, the Biblical definition of heathen
December 27th, 2011 @ 9:18 am
rachael & others
Sorry but I have been prohibited from talking about Torah or any other topic not associated with this thread. If you want to continue our recent commentaries contact me through the relevant threads.
adios
December 27th, 2011 @ 9:35 am
Chuck, as long as the issue of Torah is relevant to this thread, have at it. I’m just trying to avoid this becoming yet another thread that gets dominated by the question of Torah and the believer, Bo’s favorite subject
December 27th, 2011 @ 9:59 am
I would say the question of Torah and the believer, is one of my favorite subjects too, but sadly many have such a wrong idea of what the Torah is about. They think stuck on the trappings of it, the most obvious things, and often miss the bigger picture. Though the Sabbath and the feasts are important as the first two are remembrances of what God has done and will do in the future, and kosher is a reminded to the fall of creation – the lion lying down with the lamb being how creation ought to be. The Torah should fundamentally be about giving your everything over to God. Your trust, your time, your future, laying everything into His hands, and abiding in His love. When you see animals or humans suffering, you help them, because that is God’s nature that we are to express. Having a pure heart, and not saying bad things behind people’s backs, even when they’re really asking for it. Self control, perseverance, courage, boldness, and meekness. Putting the ego and self aside and serving the Almighty with joy even when it costs you everything. That’s Torah to me. And I think Messianics often focus on the things ‘Christians’ don’t do, instead of the things the best Christians have kept. Men of God who have sacrificed everything, money, a rich lifestyle, etc, to go off to India to preach the gospel, that is a higher level of Torah observance to me, than Messianics who keep Kosher so they can feel Superior to others, yet have no self control, and are full of anger and rage at everything Christian. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Torah and all those things, but there are Godly Christian men who haven’t kept those commandments, yet have kept even greater ones than myself, and I expect them to be greater in the kingdom than I. Christian Martyrs, and more. I’m just gushing my heart out, but this is what I think.
December 27th, 2011 @ 11:57 am
Benkc
Let the scripture be the reference.
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=heathen&qs_version=KJV
December 27th, 2011 @ 2:15 pm
Chuck,
Looks like your all clear to post. Got any reasons why my posts concerning your post are off target?
Shalom
December 27th, 2011 @ 2:17 pm
Ben KC,
Did you like the explanations on what genetic fallacies are and how many of the pagan associations in Xmas celebration are not genetic fallacies but rebellion against the straight forward statements of scripture?
Shalom
December 27th, 2011 @ 2:18 pm
David Roberts,
I think that Ben KC was addressing you about genetic fallacies. Do you have any thoughts on the subject?
Shalom
December 27th, 2011 @ 5:35 pm
Rachael, Im not asking for Bible verses, Im asking you to provide a Biblical definition. Also, provide the context of how the word is being used in that passage. Use a commentary, use a Hebrew dictionary, read the historical background, etc… Hope to read more from your research.
December 27th, 2011 @ 5:47 pm
Ben KC,
Is it fitting and proper for you to hold Rachael’s feet to the fire on this if you will not answer my posts to you on a topic that you brought up?
Shalom
December 27th, 2011 @ 7:56 pm
Here in Britain’s Septic Isle, Christmas shows its roots more clearly each year. I agree with David Pawson that we should be trying to take Christ out of Christmas: the heathen have long since reclaimed the feast for themselves, anyway. They love it, yet hate God, and Christmas thrives while Christianity dies.
Yet I agree with Dr. Brown, that it is important to add rather than simply take away. So with this in mind I offer my own suggestion…
…Could we table a motion to rename Christmas Satanalia?
December 28th, 2011 @ 10:09 am
I provided a perfect biblical definition. I gave you scriptures. THe scriptures give you the exact context. Who better to explain the meaning. It is all thru scripture. You already know but continue to want to play dodge ball.
I gave other examples in my earlier posts. No one has addressed these scriptures. Alot of time is spent trying to dis-prove but the truth is right in front of us IF we will except the word for exactly what it says.
NO answer will be good enough unless you are seeking to leave like Ruth did. SHe said in Ruth 1:16
“Do not urge me to leave you or turn back from following you; for where you go, I will go, and where you lodge, I will lodge. Your people shall be my people, and your God, my God.
What does that mean exactly? Where you go I will go????
Your people shall be my people???? Your God my GOd????
Can you define the word “ONE”?
As a person put it earlier from Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism. (what does ONE faith mean?) If it’s ONE faith as we say one GOD then it would be the same thing not something that can’t be found in scripture. NOt something that Ruth turned from and not something that the woman at the well was being told to leave.
IN John 2:23 it is fascinating to see that Gentiles went to the Feast of Passover and they believed the signs they saw. THey must have heard and went to the feast. But what did they do after they believed? DId they go back to their pagans ways… back to their foreign god practices? THey found what they were looking for and they were changed.Yet you see that the Jews had no dealings with samaritans/gentiles. John 4:9. Those gentiles had heard and they came to see the Messiah anyway. That attitude of John 4:9 is real today. Heavy with the ultra orthodox. They hate Gentiles. I have witnessed it many times.
HOwever, that said the woman at the well talked to Y’shua and told her what to do. I have brought this up before and no one has addressed it here. BUT it clears it all up. Y’shua himself was very clear here.
THen in John 4:39 many more gentiles become believers because of what the woman at the well had testified.
Verse 42 now they have heard for themselves and beleive.
Verse 45 So when Y’shua came into Galilee they recieved HIM having seen all the things HE did in Jerusalem AT THE FEAST!!!!!. SO they did go to Jerusalem as the woman at the well was told to do by Y’shua. “FOR THEY THEMSELVES ALSO WENT TO THE FEAST.
John 5:4 Theres the word “SEASONS” again. It is all thru the N.T.
Look for these things to define what Y’shua said to do. He clearly explains and gives HIS definition of what a heathen is very clear in scripture. Let HIM clarify it for us!
December 28th, 2011 @ 10:28 am
Rachael, its no problem if you cannot provide the response from different resources. I was trying to see if you were able solidify your conclusion by using different scholarly sources. But like I said before, its ok if you dont have that info.
December 28th, 2011 @ 10:38 am
Rachael,
Just to give me a better understanding where you are coming from, do you support Biblical scholarly work that provide Biblical interpretations, historical background, etc?
Also, just curious to know if you read: “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth ” by Gordon Fee
December 28th, 2011 @ 3:02 pm
NIce ..was that some sort of intimidation?
It is clear that you feel the truth is not enough thru scripture alone.
You clearly didn’t address anything I raised in my post????
II Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Do you think when that was written that they consulted with Gordon Fee or anyone else? They got off when they started depending on man and not God for interpretation. THe sages did not direct them right, etc…we have so many takes on scriptures and there are so many different churchs out there. BUT we have only ONE GOD and ONE FAITH. That makes it all NARROW and POINTED in ONE direction. I have already presented that. BUt not one has addressed it!!!
WHy do you seek my answer or interpretation, but for a slam anyway. My interpretation means nothing. Scripture is the authority. Didn’t you research the scriptures regarding your question?
I would rather stick with scripture alone putting it together in the chron. order and watch it unfold in the full blown Hebrew roots of fulfillments!
I didn’t think anyone would comment on the real issues that I raised in my post. This is just more dodge ball and a real waste of precious time.
December 28th, 2011 @ 4:01 pm
rachael, thank you for responding. I have a little more understanding of where you are coming from.
In regarding to your post#36, with all the exclamation marks and CAPS, youre overreacting and misreading my comments/questions. You should relax. I assure you am not here to attack you. I was just trying to get to know where your coming from in how you study.
December 28th, 2011 @ 4:02 pm
I meant post #236
December 28th, 2011 @ 4:07 pm
Rachael, if you continue to discuss in this manner, I will not continue to engage my discussion with you. If you change your tone, I will gladly discuss when I have time.
December 28th, 2011 @ 6:01 pm
@Bo, I’d love to share my thoughts on genetic fallacies, but first I’d like to ask, what is the ( (or is there an) antonym for ‘genetic fallacy’?
December 28th, 2011 @ 10:34 pm
The problem with the genetic fallacy defense is that people who use it, don’t apply it consistently.
There are people who want to use the Swastika symbol and say, because they’re part of the New Age movement and not Nazis, they should be free to wear it. Would the Christians who use the genetic fallacy defense to justify their observance of Christmas, also defend the New Agers right to use the Swastika, since it has little or no relevance to the Nazis?
There are many more such examples, one could bring.
December 29th, 2011 @ 1:29 am
David Roberts,
I noticed that Ben KC dropped out of the discussion that he initiated about genetic fallacies…after I showed that it is a false claim when we have revelation from the scripture about not adopting/adding ideas and practices from other cultures to what YHWH asks of us in regards to worship and celebration. It becomes obvious that a genetic fallacy can only be sited and “proved” when there is a lack of direct revelation on right and wrong. This being the case, the true genetic fallacy is when someone tries to say that adopting cultural remnants of paganism for celebration and worship of YHWH is permitted due to the fact that it is not attached to idolatry any longer. So, they try to prove that there has been a break from “out and out” idolatry by attempting to show those pagan customs are only cultural now.
To some degree, usually a large one, past cultures got their celebrations and symbols from idolatrous religion. Where do these current cultures symbols and celebrations come from but from the past cultures…at least usually. If there were no prohibition from the true Elohim or no true Elohim, we could be shown to be wrong in denouncing the using of those relics of paganism on a genetic basis. But there is a true Elohim that says he abhors those relics.
Since many present Xmas customs have been shown to be against direct scriptural injunctions, the “present value” is seriously in question. The ancient past and the recent past can be shown to “affect the present value” adversely on both a scriptural and a cultural basis.
That is all I have time for now.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 7:18 am
Well put BO! Clearer than Clear.
Those that have ears to hear WILL HEAR!
December 29th, 2011 @ 7:49 am
Ephesians 2:20
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Messiah Y’shua himself as the chief cornerstone.
This covers it well. Where did the church get off? When they divorced themselves from their Jewish brothers.
Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the GENTILES shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.
GUARANTEED Gentiles will not be doing the PAGAN thing in this house.
Zechariah 8:23
This is what the LORD Almighty says: “In those days ten men from all languages and nations (GENTILES) will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’” An Oracle
Looks like the Gentiles finally get it here. NO pagan stuff here either.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:31 am
Rachael
What do you say to this “Most of the religious practices outlined in the Old Testament were practiced by pagans before they were practiced by the YHWH-worshippers in the Bible. If you want to use that line of arguing, you must be consistent. Sacrificing animals, drink and grain offerings, lighting candles, burning incense, dancing in worship, playing tambourines, believing in sea monsters, etc. were all done by pagans before they were done in the OT.”
December 29th, 2011 @ 10:07 am
Heres one example of the definition of Genetic Fallacy
Explanation:
The genetic fallacy is committed when an idea is either accepted or rejected because of its source, rather than its merit.
Even from bad things, good may come; we therefore ought not to reject an idea just because of where it comes from, as ad hominem arguments do.
Equally, even good sources may sometimes produce bad results; accepting an idea because of the goodness of its source, as in appeals to authority, is therefore no better than rejecting an idea because of the badness of its source. Both types of argument are fallacious.
Examples
(1) My mommy told me that the tooth fairy is real. Therefore: (2) The tooth fairy is real.
(1) Eugenics was pioneered in Germany during the war. Therefore: (2) Eugenics is a bad thing.
Each of these arguments commits the genetic fallacy, because each judges an idea by the goodness or badness of its source, rather than on its own merits.
December 29th, 2011 @ 12:16 pm
Ben KC,
You wrote:
True enough. The problem arises in who is the judge of the merits. If we are the judges, then we are putting ourselves in the place of Elohim. If we let YHWH’s word do the judging, then we can know rightly what is good and evil. To do the judging ourselves, we continue to be partakers of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is equivalent to rebellion.
Since YHWH tells us not to add to or subtract from His revelation of how and when He wants to to be worshiped and what is to be celebrated concerning Him and His redemptive actions, we are required to go by His judgement concerning the merits of Xmas and its customs.
You wrote:
Where do you get your information about this? Cain and Abel offered grain and animals pretty early on. Musical instruments were invented and played early in Genesis. We are not told whether these instruments were used in worship of either pagan deities or YHWH first. Your point is understood, that just because these things are used in pagan worship, does not mean that they are necessarily wrong if done according to YHWH’s will in worship of Him. The problem remains with doing things in supposed worship of YHWH that He has instructed us not to do.
Though YHWH has incense that He specifies for worship of Him, He makes it very plain that to offer any other incense to Him is forbidden. Though YHWH makes use of sacrificial altars, He tells us to destroy the ones that paganism used. He also tells us specifics on how to build an altar that is acceptable to Him. To do it differently is prohibited. Xmas is full of man’s ideas that add to and take away from YHWH’s direct commands. We simply are not allowed to worship YHWH in the ways the nations worship their deities and we are not to invent our own way of worship.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 2:16 pm
Ben you have not provided one scripture reference. I am not sure what your point was in your post.
GOD’S word is always consistent and that is what I provided.
However, what is obvious is that YHWH has HIS OWN set of HOW-TO’S and Y’shua made it clear to the woman at the well that she didn’t know what she was doing on pagan mountain.
What do you do with Genesis 1:14. I have been all over it. WHen did YHWH do away with HIS reckoning of time? When did HE do away with being the Passover Lamb that was slain for our sins?
We are going to be singing the song of moses and the Lamb?
(Rev 15:3 KJV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
December 29th, 2011 @ 2:55 pm
Rachael, explain why celebrating a non-Biblical holiday is considered a sin such as Christmas or Thanksgiving.
Also, if someone celebrates Christmas, does this mean they are not Christian?
December 29th, 2011 @ 3:28 pm
The way Im reading some of the post here, it sounds like:
Any non-Biblical holiday = pagan (especially Christmas)
If you confirm this is your view, you will have to explain to me how the Bible defines what is pagan.
December 29th, 2011 @ 4:46 pm
Ben KC,
There are civil holidays such as labor day, independence day, and memorial day. These are not necessarily pagan, although there could be issues with such days depending on the way they are celebrated.
There are religious holidays have come down to us through Catholicism or directly from the worship of false deities. There are religious holy days that are specified in the Bible. YHWH specifies His holy days and asks us to not add to or take away from what He has revealed in scripture.
There is no evidence of the apostles or the early church celebrating anything but YHWH’s specified holy days. Christ Mass is a Catholic holiday that was added by manmade religion and is celebrated on the day of prior pagan religious observances and continues to incorporate the pagan symbols and practices of those celebrations.
Definition of pagan: 1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)-from: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pagan
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 5:33 pm
Bo,
Since your response seems more civil, Ill give it another try with you.
Just because there was no evidence or not spoken in Scripture doesnt mean it didnt happen or did happen. Also, even if it didnt happen, it doesnt mean it was wrong unless something was done that was directly against Scripture.
Some of the main objectives we are to considered pagan would be, worshiping another god(s) (human/animal/food sacrifices, bowing down to a statue, etc), following another ideology that does not submit to Christ, submitting to sin (murder, fornication, homosexuality), etc. These acts line up to what Scripture speaks against which are considered pagan acts.
How does Christmas fit into pagan celebration is really up to the individual. If someone wants to mix the holiday celebration by worshiping another god, committing sin, etc, then this would be pagan. If a someone celebrates a holiday and doesnt go against the commands in Scripture, it is fine.
Ill stop from here. Ill read your response and reply back when I have time.
December 29th, 2011 @ 6:22 pm
Ben,
You said:
Rachael, explain why celebrating a non-Biblical holiday is considered a sin such as Christmas or Thanksgiving.
I would have to ask you does Y’shua consider paganism a sin? IN those earlier verses I sent you HE never has anything good to say about paganism. We have been over that tons.
Thanksgiving has no pagan roots. This year I did read some questionable things about it. But I have also read that when the Pilgrims came they searched the scriptures to find out what to name the harvest feast. This was named by the pilgrims after the “Feast of Shavuot” in the bible.
You said:
Also, if someone celebrates Christmas, does this mean they are not Christian?
What does being a christian (messiah Like) really mean? Are they Born again and changed seeking truth, to grow on, from the scriptures alone?
I know plenty of people who celebrate xmas and they are AMAZING people. However, some would rather shoot you than hear anything about a Jewish messiah. Hear or talk about anything about the Messiah period even though they say they are celebrating his birth. They go into debt and there is so much chaos. I am so glad that I can rest and know that HIS yoke is easy and his burden is light.
I found out that when I got saved that I didn’t even know what xmas was about. I ask my parents and they were shocked. I said you had a manger up on the mantle and the lights glowing with presents all around the tree. It is fashioned so that a child cannot hear because the presents already has his heart. Like a child predator with candy stealing them away to lah-lah land of make believe. A real sedative that usually lasts a life time.
For a child, (that is where we all start the indoctrination into paganism) the focus is not on the Messiah it is on the gifts, VAIN THINGS, and lights. Unbeknown to our innocence and ignorance we are being told lies that will most likely cheat us from ever really knowing the Messiah fully and completely.
Its ALL fun and fantasies for children. However, a great deception. Parents lie to their children about Santa..later the easter bunny, tooth fairy?? WHY? Why do we repeat this lie to each generation. The children don’t have a chance to get out of the maze unless GOD shows up. For me that is what happened. I saw outside of my inherited pagan box. I know HIM in all of HIS jewishness and that is WHO HE is period. That is the greater thing by far.
December 29th, 2011 @ 7:35 pm
Ben KC,
Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Exodus 32
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Was it up to the individual to in the verses above? What part of the celebration would have been left if they had removed all uncommanded things from it? How can we, in light of the above passages, celebrate a “holy day” on a noncommanded day in a noncommanded way and it not be against what is commanded? If we proclaim a holiday to YHWH–or go along with those that have–that He has not sanctioned and use symbols that He has not specified, how are we doing anything different than they? Were there any well meaning individuals in the camp that joined in the celebrating that were not sinning by doing so?
In your above post, it seems that you do not recognize that to not celebrate YHWH’s commanded holy days is going against scripture by diminishing from what He commanded. And it doesn’t seem that you see that adding a “holy day” to YHWH’s list is also adding to what He commanded and thus going against scripture.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 7:56 pm
When the millennial reign commences, Dec 25th will no longer be a day to celebrate Mistletoe, Yule log, and chopping down a perfectly healthy innocent tree to watch it die in your living room. God doesn’t like unnecessary killing of trees:
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:09 pm
Dave, did you read the whole chapter of Deut 20? The context of chapter has nothing to do with Christmas.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:18 pm
Bo,
There are no passages in the Bible that says its a sin to celebrate the birth of Christ.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:25 pm
Ben KC,
You did not answer my questions. Can we do anything that the scripture does not specifically say that we cannot do? Does it say anywhere in scripture that we cannot eat people? Please answer my questions.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:28 pm
Ben KC,
It does say in scripture not to add to what YHWH has commanded? Xmas would be an addition. He never said to celebrate Messiah’s birth…His death at Passover, yes…His birth, no. I still want you to answer my questions that I posted above.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:29 pm
rachael,
The Christmas holiday we celebrate is not rooted or connected in whatever you believe its rooted in. No one worships a tree or other gods in this culture. If it was still rooted in worshiping other gods, then it will be evident evident. If this was the case, I would agree with you. But there is no form of worshiping other gods in this holiday.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:30 pm
Bo, no one is making it a commandment to others to celebrate the birth of Christ.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:37 pm
Ben KC,
I’m totally with you on this, and to be candid, some of the arguments being raised against believers celebrating the birth of Jesus are ludicrous. I’ve not seen one syllable from anyone there that indicates that there’s anything in the least bit pagan about believers reading the opening chapters of some of the Gospels, singing hymns glorifying the Savior’s coming into the world, and proclaiming His lordship at one particular time of the year.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:38 pm
Bo, did you ever think that maybe you might be adding to God’s commandment by saying not to celebrate Christmas?
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:40 pm
Thanks Dr. Brown
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:41 pm
Ben KC,
How is it not adding to YHWH’s commandments to celebrate something that He did not mention? And please answer my questions.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:42 pm
Dr. Brown,
It is one thing to put your 2 cents worth in. It is another to prove what you say by scripture.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:44 pm
Bo, no one is adding to God’s commandment. Period. No one is saying this is mandatory because God said so. If the church were to say that, then thats one way to add to His command. But this is not the case. NO one is saying this is a commandment from the Lord that we have to celebrate His birth.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:45 pm
Dr. Brown,
Why is it not pagan to use a pagan calendar?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:46 pm
Bo, in regarding to your comment to Dr. Brown, is one thing to use Scripture, but its another to misuse it.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:48 pm
Dr. Brown,
Why is it not pagan to use a pagan calendar to supposedly celebrate the birth of Messiah who came to earth on YHWH’s schedule that is revealed by His calendar? Is it scriptural to celebrate birthdays?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:49 pm
Ben KC,
Are you going to answer my questions? Please show me how I have misused scripture.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:55 pm
One example, your attempt to say celebrating Christmas was adding to God’s command was misuse.
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:57 pm
Ben KC,
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Do you see from the above passage that when we use aspects of celebrations that were originally designed to worship false deities, that we are adding to what YHWH commanded us? To “do likewise” in supposed worship of YHWH is sin. Do you see that when we do not celebrate YHWH’s specified holy days, that we are diminishing from what He commanded?
Are you going to answer my questions?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 8:59 pm
Again, no one is adding or diminishing.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:00 pm
Ben KC,
Do you keep YHWH’s Holy days as specified in scripture?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:01 pm
Ben KC,
You are adding a celebration.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:02 pm
Bo, stick with the topic. Dont go off on another bunny trail.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:03 pm
Bo, we are adding a celebration but not making it God’s commandment. Theres a difference.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:03 pm
Ben KC,
I post again:
Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Exodus 32
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Was it up to the individual to in the verses above? What part of the celebration would have been left if they had removed all uncommanded things from it? How can we, in light of the above passages, celebrate a “holy day” on a noncommanded day in a noncommanded way and it not be against what is commanded? If we proclaim a holiday to YHWH–or go along with those that have–that He has not sanctioned and use symbols that He has not specified, how are we doing anything different than they? Were there any well meaning individuals in the camp that joined in the celebrating that were not sinning by doing so?
In your above post, it seems that you do not recognize that to not celebrate YHWH’s commanded holy days is going against scripture by diminishing from what He commanded. And it doesn’t seem that you see that adding a “holy day” to YHWH’s list is also adding to what He commanded and thus going against scripture.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:05 pm
Ben KC,
Do you keep YHWH’s Holy days as specified in scripture?
A simple yes or no will do. It is relevant and not a bunny trail.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:11 pm
Bo, part of the context of Deut 12 was that people were worshiping another god. Christmas has nothing to do with worship another god
Ex 32, the context was worshiping an idol. Christmas has nothing to do with worshiping an idol.
We dont worship a Christmas tree, lights, decorations. Period.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:19 pm
Im signing off. Will respond another time.
December 29th, 2011 @ 9:26 pm
Bo,
I categorically reject your reading of Scripture. There are fundamental standards that God lays out in His Word, and we who love Him will live by those standards, and then there is wonderful life in the Spirit, with freedom to honor and serve Him in a thousand different ways.
As for birthdays, there is nothing in the Word against celebrating a birthday.
BTW, I’m assuming that you gather together with other believers on a regular basis (it’s a clear NT injunction), that you have leaders you are submitted to in an accountable way (an even clearer NT injunction), and that one of your typical gatherings looks like what Paul described in 1 Cor 14:26, correct?
In any case, I really have no intention of getting into extended debate about this issue, but when spotted some of the recent posts interacting with Ben KC, I felt it necessary to respond.
That being said, please do answer the questions I asked here when you can. Thanks!
December 29th, 2011 @ 10:41 pm
Okay, diving back in, however briefly:
BenKC
Right on, brother! I agree 100% with everything you’ve said (as should be evident from my posts here and last year where I argued in the same way). Also, I salute your succinctness!
Bo
Leave off the leading questioning, “Do you keep YHWH’s Holy days as specified in scripture?” The fact is that you yourself do not, nor can you without a functioning temple and Levitical priesthood.
BenKC is absolutely right, you are the one adding commands by saying “it is unlawful to celebrate the Incarnation on Dec. 25th”.
David
Now that is a textbook case of ripping a verse out of context. Just sayin’, man.
Rachael
To be quite candid, I seem to detect what I would consider an unhealthy fascination with Jewish and Hebrew things coming from you. I strongly encourage you to spend some time on this site: http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/ and consider what you are being taught by the Hebrew roots movement. It will lead you away from Christ, of that I can assure you. Of course, unless I miss my guess, you are still in the grip of the convert phase, and you won’t actually even seriously consider the things said on the site until that has abated. I hope I am wrong.
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:06 pm
Ben KC,
You have not answered my questions, probably because you cannot without damaging your credibility. The truth is that your credibility is damaged by not answering.
So you say that you have not added any commandments, but you submit to the commandments of the Roman Catholic church by keeping Christ Mass, which is rife with pagan practices that are forbidden in the passage I quoted above. Therefore you are diminishing from what is written in that you are disobeying the injunction to not worship YHWH in the ways that pagans worship their deities, even if you only keep the pagan calendar date. You probably do not keep YHWH’s feasts, which is another diminishing of what YHWH has commanded. You very conveniently skirt my questions. So be it. It was expected.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:14 pm
Dr. Brown,
You can categorically reject my reading of scripture if you like. You still have not demonstrated that my reading of them is in error. Is it Hebrew to celebrate birthdays? Is it scriptural to do so? Where did the custom come from? Did it come from pagan worship of their deities or kings that were considered to be divine and were worshiped? Do you think that the calendar we use has anything to do with YHWH’s dealings with mankind? Is it pagan? Do you know? Do you care?
Yes our meetings are like Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14:26 and on the days that YHWH says to keep instead of adhering to doctrines and commandments of men that turn from the truth.
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:17 pm
Tom,
What does a functioning levitical priesthood have to do with my celebration of YHWH’s appointed times? Are you sure you understand enough about the commandments concerning the set apart times of YHWH to make that judgement?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:24 pm
Dr. Brown,
You wrote:
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:25 pm
Dr. Brown,
Let’s try that again!
You wrote:
Would you be thinking of these scriptures as some of the fundamental standards:
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Do you think some of the thousand different ways to honor and serve YHWH include warmed over pagan practices or breaking His commandments?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:30 pm
Tom,
And no, Tom, I am not adding to YHWH’s commandments in declaring that we are breaking YHWH’s commandments when we adopt pagan practices to supposedly worship Him. He is the one that said not to worship Him like the heathen do their deities…not me. I am simply stating what He said and applying it to our situation today. Did you notice how Ben KC refused to address the questions I raised concerning this?
Shalom
December 29th, 2011 @ 11:56 pm
Bo
Several things:
1) After literally dozens of times where you have dodged or simply refused to address clear questions to you posed by myself and others, trying to claim the high ground against BenKC is ludicrous. No other word for it.
2) When you say:
you provide a clear example of what I was talking about in my call-in: “misrepresentation or misunderstanding”.
3) I understand that animal sacrifice, by the priesthood, located at the tabernacle/temple was the main point of several of the feasts, “Yom Kippur” to name but one.
4) When you say:
a) The pagans had temples… so obviously God meant temples are against the Law…
b) The pagans prayed to their deities… so obviously God meant prayer is banned…
c) The pagans offered sacrifices to their gods… so obviously God meant no such thing should be done…
…right?
You are applying that verse licentiously and without proper regard for its context. If you were truly consistent, you’d have to quit singing. After all, that’s something heathen do to worship their deities…
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:06 am
Bo,
I interacted with you sufficiently many months ago to call some of your teachings and doctrines dangerous, and you showed no inclination to hear me or many others since then, so I will absolutely not engage you again in detail here other than to point out your error. I’m also quite happy to allow my knowledge of biblical truth, along with Jewish customs and traditions against yours, based on which I see zero reason not to celebrate a birthday. Again, you are allowed to continue to post here, although for your soul’s sake, you need to posture yourself more as a student than as a teacher, since there are others here with biblical truth that you need to hear. And you utterly disqualify yourself from being taken seriously when you consistently misrepresent what others post here, along with accusing everything that doesn’t fit your paradigm (falsely alleged to be biblical) to be “pagan.” You had best tread much more carefully, Bo, and I say this with genuine love for you. I follow the Lord and His Word and His Spirit, not pagan rituals and not the commandments of men. Your accusations are quickly making your posts utterly irrelevant, which would be a shame.
Finally, are you part of a fellowship of believers and in accountable submission to other leaders? I didn’t see an answer to those questions, which are based on clear NT commands.
December 30th, 2011 @ 3:47 am
“So you say that you have not added any commandments, but you submit to the commandments of the Roman Catholic church by keeping Christ Mass” – Bo
**face-palm**
Bo, seriously? sigh….
December 30th, 2011 @ 9:51 am
Ben KC,
Just condescension from you and no answers to the questions I asked. Evasion is not persuasion.
Shalom.
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:24 am
Tom,
You wrote:
We had this discussion last year. You still are not listening or representing me or the scripture correctly. Please consider the following from last year.
You wrote:
That there are altars in paganism and in YHWH worship does not mean that the altars of paganism can be used for YHWH. In truth, they can’t. They were to be torn down. Though alters are a common element, pagan altars are abominations. Maybe in a generic sense the word altar is neither good or bad, but in actuality there are good and bad alters…and the bad ones are not to be redeemed. Even the good one, if it is desecrated, has to be cleansed before commencing offerings to YHWH. The pagan one cannot be cleansed.
There is no such thing as phallic symbols being used in worship to YHWH. The corrupt Roman church brought this element of paganism into church architecture. As I am sure you know, St. Peter’s has a huge one at its center. It was moved there from Egypt. It was previously pagan…and remains so.
We are instructed not to do the things that pagans did in worship to YHWH. We are told to destroy the phallic symbols and altars that the pagans erected. The steeple is a phallic symbol that has its origin in paganism. Unregenerate “Christians” adopted the pagan symbol.
It is ironic that today’s church sees no problem with it, and that it is a perfect symbol of the rampant fornication among Churchianity’s congregants. Homosexual clergy anyone? Remarriage which equals adultery anyone? Youth group and singles group hook ups anyone? Pastors running off with the secretary, priests molesting young boys…
Put a demonic symbol on you church as a signpost to what is going on inside if you want. Put one up so that the demons know where they are welcome. But do not put one up in so called worship to YHWH. It is still an abomination.
Put an erect tree in your home and decorate it. The act of decorating it is honoring it. It is exalting it to a place of glory that is beyond its Creator’s design. Put little replicas of Baal (sun spheres) on it. Place gifts before it. Be sure to get on your knees when you do so. Sing songs to it. Say it is not a relic of paganism. Say it is in worship to YHWH. Aaron said the golden calf was in worship to YHWH.
To be continued.
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:24 am
Continued below.
You wrote:
YHWH made sex and its use has been corrupted. YHWH made trees and their use has been corrupted. YHWH did not make pagan worship practices. He made a tree to stand in the forest until it was needed by man to build or heat with. He did not invent bringing it into our houses to decorate/worship. He didn’t give instructions on using it in worship to Him. Man has created a tradition that goes against the nature of a tree. This tradition gives more glory to the tree than YHWH designed it to have. What ever you do, do not say “wow” or be amazed at a decorated tree…it is worship…but not according to YHWH’s instructions. It is strange fire. (Lev. 10:1-3)
If you want to be wowed by a tree go look at one that YHWH has allowed to be in full bloom or that is enormous. Give praise to Him that made the beautiful tree…not to the tree…not to a human decorator. Do not praise the works of a man’s hands.
You wrote:
“Acts 17:23 records Paul using the pagan altar “to an unknown god” to preach the Gospel of Christ. To take pagan symbols and use them to demonstrate and teach the good news is a beautiful thing – thank you Paul for showing us how.”
Your point is ridiculously grasping at straws. Paul did not use the altar to sacrifice to YHWH…did he? He didn’t incorporate a pagan symbol into worship. We haven’t gotten Paul’s point yet…We haven’t abandoned paganism…We haven’t repented of our ignorance and rebellion. We want to continue to worship ignorantly, instead of following YHWH’S directions about what days He considers Holy.
Acts 17
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you…
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
So we continue in Tree and egg superstition. I guess Tamuz and Estarte will not be offended this way. The Greeks didn’t want to accidentally offend a god that they had left out. We do not care if we offend the One that saved us…we bring other gods before the true one by pagan symbols, practices and holidays.
Repenting and keeping YHWH’s holy days would be advisable. YHWH winks at the times of our ignorance. We know better now. He does not wink at rebellion.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:36 am
Dr. Brown,
I didn’t accuse you. I quoted scripture and asked you a question. Do you think that Matthew 5:19 and 1 John 5:2-3 are some of the fundamental standards in scripture? Should we apply our lives to these principles?
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:50 am
Bo,
Funny that you like to emphasize that I avoid answering your question when you have done the same to answer Dr Browns question twice. Sounds hypocritical doesnt it?
“are you part of a fellowship of believers and in accountable submission to other leaders? I didn’t see an answer to those questions, which are based on clear NT commands.” – Dr. Brown
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:58 am
Dr. Brown,
“Ancient Rome
The Romans enthusiastically celebrated birthdays with hedonistic parties and generous presents.[13] In revulsion that the early Christians rejected the practice as inherently pagan.
Christianity: Early centuries
The early Christians did not celebrate Christ’s birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom. For example Origen in his commentary “On Levites” writes that Christians should not only not celebrate their birthdays, but should look on them with disgust.
Orthodox Christianity still prefers the celebration of name days only.
Christianity: Medieval
Ordinary folk celebrated their saint’s day (the saint they were named after), but nobility celebrated birthdays.”-From Wikipedia-Birthday
‘Nay, indeed, the law does not permit us to make
festivals at the births of our children’
-(Flavius Josephus, Against Apion,
Book II, section 26).
the Jews and early christians – “regarded birthday celebrations as part
of idolatrous worship…”
-M’Clintock & Strong’s Cyclopedia
(Vol. I, p. 817)
“We Christians neither cover our doorposts with wreaths, nor…decorate our house like some new brothel. We…do not celebrate along with you the holidays…The pagan Romans clad their doorposts with green and branching laurels…In the Saturnalia…Presents come and go…There are…gifts…and Banquets…yet Christians should have no acquaintance with the festivals of the pagans.”
- Tertullian, (A.D. 155-220),
quoted by David Bercot,
A Dictionary of Early
Christian Beliefs, 1998, p. 342).
“Christians of the first century did not celebrate
the festival honoring the birth of Jesus – for the same reason they honored no other birthday anniversary. It was the feeling at that time by all Christians that the celebration of all birthdays (even the Lord’s)was a custom of the pagans.”
- Dr. John C. McCollister’s
The Christian Book of Why
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:58 am
Bo,
We are all in agreement about not engaging in pagan practice but its how you define whats pagan means and how you connect it to Christmas is the issue that is incorrect.
December 30th, 2011 @ 10:59 am
Ben KC,
If I answer Dr. Brown, will you answer me?
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:06 am
Bo, thats up to you and I to decide. But dont be hypcritical next time by trying to put someone on the spot when you yourself are doing the same. I have my valid reasons why I ignore some questions. If you want to assume I dont have the answers like you accused me last time, go right ahead.
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:12 am
Ben KC,
I think you do have the answers but they are damning to your position. I have my reasons for not answering Dr. Brown. I is not being hypocritical to ask you to answer questions concerning a topic you brought up if I do not answer questions that are of no bearing on the subject and that are intended for character assassination. I really want answers for the sake of the argument.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:18 am
Ben KC,
It appears that your “valid reasons” to not answer is to evade the issues so that the argument will be side tracked and/or forced to be about what you deem important. It is only fair for you to allow the other side of the argument to have access to full disclosure and cross examination for the sake of truth. Being coy and evasive may make the argument go in your direction, but it is a tactic of hiding the whole truth.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:26 am
Bo,
Once again, I will not engage your arguments. Your position is dangerous, it misinterprets the words of Jesus and the NT, and I will not repeat what has been repeated to you hundreds of times over. Paul’s words to Titus are actually apt at this point: “But avoid stupid controversies, genealogies, quarrels and fights about the Torah; because they are worthless and futile” (JNT).
And BTW, the first believers DID celebrate the birth of Yeshua, spending four chapters of the Gospels celebrating it! (Matt 1-2; Luke 1-2)
I’ll just ask you one more time if you are part of a fellowship of believers and in accountable submission to other leaders. That’s a question that just about everyone else posting here can answer with a quick and easy, “Yes, of course,” since we love the Word, love the Lord, and love His Word.
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:31 am
Bo, so you admit to know I have the answers but you accused me before of not having the answers? Sounds contradictory. Also, since you admit to know that I have the answer, you still want to conclude that you know my answers will damn my position? Wow. I guess Ill call you Bo the psychic. BTW, do you happen to have a 800 number for that business?
Interesting that you deny being hypocritical. Yes, its hypocritical when you try to put me on the spot saying Im not answering your questions when you have done the same when Dr. Brown asked you a question twice. You can call it “character assassination” but I call it exposing the hypocrisy in your attempt to provoke a response.
Anyways, lets get back on the subject here.
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:38 am
Sorry. The end of the last line should read, “love the Word, love the Lord, and love His Body.”
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:40 am
Dr. Brown.
Emphasizing to love the Word twice is good too
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:43 am
Ben KC,
Funny that you can spend so much time discussing why we are not discussing what the topic is, and still not answer the questions that I asked that are quite on topic…and then have the audacity to insist that we get back on topic.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:45 am
Ben KC,
Are you being civil?
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:46 am
Dr. Brown,
Did you see the post about birthdays?
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:50 am
Its funny that still trying to provoke someone to answer your question but you can even answer Dr. Browns question.
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:51 am
I meant “cant” on post 412
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:53 am
Im signing off. Ill respond when I have time.
Bo, please repost your question that you think I have not answered. Try to simplify your question and try not to add too many questions in one post. Sometimes I can miss those questions.
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:57 am
Dr. Brown,
What is to interpret in this statement? It just says what it says.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I answered part of your question thusly:
“Yes our meetings are like Paul describes in 1 Cor. 14:26 and on the days that YHWH says to keep instead of adhering to doctrines and commandments of men that turn from the truth.”
As for the rest of your question, yes of course, I am submitted to other leaders and in fellowship with local believers. Of course you would not submit to the leaders that I submit to and I would not submit to the leaders that you submit to…because we think that each other is in a fellowship with leaders that go against the scripture. How much difference did the question you asked or the answer I gave make? Did it help this discussion?
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 11:59 am
Ben KC,
I post again:
Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Exodus 32
1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.
6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:
Was it up to the individual to in the verses above? What part of the celebration would have been left if they had removed all uncommanded things from it? How can we, in light of the above passages, celebrate a “holy day” on a noncommanded day in a noncommanded way and it not be against what is commanded? If we proclaim a holiday to YHWH–or go along with those that have–that He has not sanctioned and use symbols that He has not specified, how are we doing anything different than they? Were there any well meaning individuals in the camp that joined in the celebrating that were not sinning by doing so?
In your above post, it seems that you do not recognize that to not celebrate YHWH’s commanded holy days is going against scripture by diminishing from what He commanded.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:06 pm
Bo,
Fine. Let’s the Word speak for itself rather than you trying to interpret it or me trying to interpret it. Glad to it! I embrace the words of Jesus and by His grace, seek to live by them.
As for your answer to my other question, thanks for responding, although I find it odd, given your response, that you didn’t respond the first time around.
While I’m sure we have much in common, and while you are quite welcome to post, and while I’m sure there are some good points you have to make, I want to reiterate that I hold your teachings and interpretations and applications of Scripture to be dangerous and divisive, and I am concerned that as the years go on you will become more extreme in your views, more judgmental of the rest of the Body, and less and less Yeshua focused.
I AM ASKING YOU NOT TO RESPOND TO THIS POST BUT SIMPLY TO TAKE THESE THINGS TO THE LORD IN PRAYER, AS I AM GIVING YOU A SERIOUS EXHORTATION. (If you simply want to acknowledge this post and say you’ll be praying, fine; but overall, you’ve been free to post hundreds and hundreds of times, to the point of dominating many a thread, so I’m being quite fair with you at this point.)
As for the other discussions you’re having here, feel free to continue them.
And for the record (in case anyone missed it), I could care less about Christmas and I don’t personally celebrate the birth of Jesus on a specific day of the year, let alone Dec. 25th.
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:07 pm
It is difficult to see outside of the box that we have lived in.
“The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education.”-Albert Einstein
I wonder if this is true of us also. I wonder if we have dared to even considered if it might be true.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:09 pm
Dr. Brown,
I acknowledge your post and would like you to know that the post below it was not in response to it.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:14 pm
Dr. Brown,
Let me thank you once again for letting me and others post their views freely, even though they are not in line with your own. You have been quite fair.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:25 pm
Dates/holidays are part of how the pagans worship their deities. We are not to inquire as to how the heathen worship and do so to YHWH. He has revealed the special dates of His choosing to us. Messiah and the early believers kept these dates.
Christmas was not adopted or proclaimed by those that penned scripture. The NT uses YHWH’s appointed times as reference points in communicating with the early assemblies. The NT does not reference the pagan calendar, even though it was the calendar that the people groups being written to would have used before conversion.
Paul exhorts the Corinthians to keep the feast of Matsah/unleavened bread. He tells them about his time frame of coming to them in reference to Shavuot/Pentecost.
Holy (set apart) people do the set apart things that YHWH instructs them to do. Part of being set apart is not doing things that the nations we live in do. Especially religious things that they do. If we do not keep the set apart days that YHWH specifies and do keep the days of our culture, nation, and the pagan, to whom are we setting ourselves apart?
It is our duty to find out about YHWH’s wishes in regard to holiness and perform those things that He has designed to set us apart to Him.
2 Corinthians 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Christmas is an unequal yoke with idolatry. We need to come out. Even the name Christ-mass should be upsetting to a protestant. The mass is an idolatrous sacrifice. It is the Messiah being perpetually sacrificed instead of one time for all. The mass is preformed daily in honor of different “saints”. Christ-mass is the day the mass is done in honor of Christ. He gets the same honor as Peter, John and Patrick in this regard.
YHWH’s feasts are all about Messiah and His body/bride. They are a love story. They are a remembrance of what YHWH has done for us and a look into the future anticipating what He will do for us.
We can invent our own holidays, adopt the pagan’s idolatrous days, or simply accept our redeemer’s Holy Days. Only one of these systems sets us apart to YHWH. To mix YHWH’s appointed times with the other concepts is lukewarmness at best…in my opinion.
Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 12:52 pm
Bo,
Thanks for having the character to reply to my strong warning in such a humble way. That’s great to see and a good example to others.
December 30th, 2011 @ 1:42 pm
BenKC
rachael,
The Christmas holiday we celebrate is not rooted or connected in whatever you believe its rooted in.
So WHY choose the made up christmas dec 25th OVER the biblical calendar? The point is still being missed. The focus has not been to talk about the REAL calendar that GOD HIMSELF ORDAINED! It really has been more about how to keep redeeming the pagan holidays.
THere is no scripture that supports what you are saying about these holidays. THAT IS WHAT IS DANGEROUS!
I don’t think the attitude is against beleivers celebrating. BUt scripture does not support this celebration. In the NT they were not celebrating HIS birth on christmas. THey would have been celebrating it on the Feast of Tabernacles. EMMANUEL came to SUKKAH with us. Not xmas with us.
BO couldn’t have presented all this any better. But it has fallen on deaf ears.
Dr. Brown says:
(I’ve not seen one syllable from anyone there that indicates that there’s anything in the least bit pagan about believers reading the opening chapters of some of the Gospels, singing hymns glorifying the Savior’s coming into the world, and proclaiming His lordship at one particular time of the year.)
Of course there is nothing wrong with reading the scriptures about HIS birth and of course they aren’t pagan. For one the believers there were not celebrating HIS BIRTH on a pagan calendar. THEY were just getting all that pagan stuff thrown out then. They were following in the redeeming teachings of Y’shua. DID Y’shua tell that woman at the well to stay on her pagan mountain? NO, HE told her to leave because she didn’t know what she was doing. This is N.T.
WHat about all the other scriptures offered that shows the N.T. bleievers doing the Biblical calendar of Genesis 1:14?
The point is still being missed!
The only point is to look at the biblical origins and see if what you are doing is found in GOD’S ordained words. THen it is your choice.
Once I saw this I thought everyone could see and I felt upset that they didn’t. A WISE family told me this:
GOD is looking for volunteers.
Psalms 110:3 Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power
December 30th, 2011 @ 7:19 pm
Ben KC, Tom, Dr. Brown, Rachael and David Roberts,
Shabbat Shalom
December 30th, 2011 @ 7:53 pm
@Tom,
“Now that is a textbook case of ripping a verse out of context. Just sayin’, man.”
Actually, it’s in keeping with first century rules of interpretation. The point of the verse is that God hates needless destruction. Whenever God destroys, it is because of the good that will come after. If destruction has to be done, there must be a need for it. Chopping down a tree for a winter solstice festival is not a good enough reason. God gave us permission to do lots of things – Christianising paganism is not one of them.
December 30th, 2011 @ 9:40 pm
Todah BO,
Shabbat Shalom
December 31st, 2011 @ 6:42 am
This forum is full of DARKNESS. People here are led by the spirit of Satan. They are full are anger and hatred. There is no love in them.
2Timothy 14
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
So, My News Years Resolution is to stay out of this forum which is not ordained by the Holy Spirit. There is no fruit of love, joy, peace, goodness, gentleness. Very, very unkind and rude people.
These people Lord are nothing like you. They are terrible witnesses for your kingdom.
REPENT and humble yourselves before Adonai. Stop your ugly fighting. Accept Jesus in your heart as your LORD and SAVIOR. Quit following Satan. Follow Jesus.
Help me Lord find a Christian Forum where your people fellowship and are gather together. This place is not good. Where there is unity. Who truly love you and worship you.
This forum is filled with DARKNESS. Sad, really sad.
I am out.
December 31st, 2011 @ 4:29 pm
Bo, its a very busy week so dont want you to think I have forgotten.
December 31st, 2011 @ 7:44 pm
Debbie,
Please remember that personal accusations are not permitted here on this forum. I don’t read many of the posts, but if I do spot one that violates our policy, I will point it out. So, it is simply out of place to write, “This forum is full of DARKNESS. People here are led by the spirit of Satan. They are full are anger and hatred. There is no love in them.”
December 31st, 2011 @ 11:15 pm
Hey folks, with the new year upon us, I need to return to my normal custom of very selective interaction here on the blog, since, first of all, it is mainly for all of you to post your views (within the guidelines, of course) and, second of all, because of time and commitments don’t allow me to post more. So, if you address me directly and don’t get a response, it’s either because I didn’t see the post or because I wasn’t able to respond. I made an exception to my normal schedule because of my esteemed friend Yisroel Blumenthal posting here, and I still owe him some interaction on major posts (in another thread), periodically, but beyond that, with rare exception, I will be back to my normal limited posting — and I’m sure all of you will do just fine without me here a lot. And keep listening to the shows each day, since I’ll surely address lots of relevant issues all the time.
Blessings on your new year in Yeshua our Messiah and Lord!
January 1st, 2012 @ 1:48 am
I intended to participate in this thread’s discussion earlier this month, but got too busy with other pressing stuff.
I didn’t celebrate Christmas this year (and actually haven’t for about 4/5 years now).
I have always felt out of sync with the Roman holidays, and this was well before I had researched them. Maybe I inherited that sense of discomfort from my upbringing, which was in a off-the-mainroad sect of Presbyterianism known as the “Nameless Church”, the “2×2′s”, and most popularly, “The Truth,” started by one Irish minister named William Irvine in the late 1850′s. All holidays were considered “worldly” and so participation was minimal, if at all.
I remember being in a Christmas production in elementary school and holding up a red candle while we sang for our parents. I don’t remember anything else about this event, except for the the distinct recognition, as I held the candle, that I was uncomfortable and conflicted. I liked the colors, the lights, the festivity, but I noticed that my parents never made much ado over Christmas. It might have slipped unnoticed in our household were it not for the emphasis in my school life. Mom did give us a present apiece on that morning, but there was never a tree, lights, or other customs. I didn’t actually feel deprived though. But that ambivalence about Christmas seems to have been a constant in my life.
I did try when my children were little, to emphasize Jesus and giving, but I never felt properly prepared for the expenses. I came to understand that seasoned holiday-keepers start preparing “the day after Christmas” when everything goes on sale. I wondered at the wisdom of working at preparing all year long for a one-day event. I felt there was something a little neurotic about needing to have a “picture-perfect” Christmas. I knew of couples who split up because of the failure of one to properly dazzle the other with a superlative gift. There were always stories in the news of people comitting suicide from the sense of personal failure brought about by the culture’s too-high expectations. I remember one woman telling me the pathetic story that when she was a child she thought Santa hated her because he never brought her anything. And over the years, I actually grew to dread and despise that holiday and everything associated with it, until one day I declared myself literally free of all the national “days”.
No one would tell me when to think and feel, I determined, or when to express this or that emotion. I would step off the treadmill. But besides the sense of great personal inconvenience the holidays represented, I also had a nagging sense that God was looking down on earth and seeing the foolishness of humanity. Seeing how we allow part of the world to starve while we, absorbed in consumerism, spend so much money (often money we don’t literally have yet) on things we will later throw out or replace for newer, more stylish versions.
That first year of liberation was not easy. I was called a “Grinch” by a beloved family member. But I threw that that off by replying that the only way someone can be a Grinch is if they believe in all those Christmas lies. If you don’t believe, then there are no Grinches, because really, Grinches don’t even exist. And my family does know me, and they know that when I get a ‘bee in my bonnet,’ they might as well leave me alone about it.
What I’ve learned is that I LOVE Winter. My oppressed feelings about Christmas had completely overshadowed the whole season, and I used to get so depressed at that time. Once I said “no more” to all the standard holidays (except Thanksgiving), I found myself appreciating the passage of time in its natural seasons without the old apprehensions. It IS a wonderful feeling to not have the old stresses. I began to feel more in tune with nature. The holidays felt completely out of sync with the seasons. New Year’s in early Winter?? Rushing around the country in late December?? The whole thing seemed contrary to simple common sense, as well.
But when I read the Old Testament and first truly believed in the “God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob”, it began to matter to me more what God thought and thinks about our holidays. So I began to research their origins. By now nearly everyone knows that our standard American holidays are customs rooted in the ancient idolatries of the nations, especially Rome. The real question seemed to be, “can these be transformed and kept for the glory of God?” There are good points on both sides of that argument. Paul in Romans 14 seems to conclude that whatever we do, we should do it for the glory of God, so someone could hang their hat on that, and believe that the holidays could be so transformed. I do think Deuteronomy 12, the whole chapter, provides the stronger argument against that, in principle; but nonetheless, everyone should be convinced in his own mind, and we need to let them make that decision for themselves without standing in judgment of them.
I never had a true love-affair with Christmas from childhood, as many have. Had I, perhaps I would be searching for scriptures to justify my continuation of it. I don’t worry or stress over it in the least anymore, however. I am a spectator, not a participant, and I find it the most comfortable position to be in. I still prefer Winter unadorned.
What I do feel “in sync” with are the Feasts of the Lord, covered in Leviticus 23, and this sense of feeling ‘in tune’ with them on an even biological level really surprised (and delighted) me. But even there, I won’t burden myself with traditions that are not my own or that don’t originate from the Bible.
This was the first year I kept Hanukkah, and I didn’t go “all out”. I had a Hanukkiah and I lit, in no special order, one each night (except for the night I forgot). I liked thinking of this time in a more New Covenant context, thinking about how Paul described our bodies as being the temples of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:13-20) and focusing on the cleansing and rededicating of my personal temple. Of course, one doesn’t need a special day to do this; it should be a regular occurrence, as only God can cleanse our temples, and we are in need of renewal and forgiveness perpetually.
I also like the sense of standing in solidarity with the Jewish people against the ban of Antiochus Epiphanies, who forbade the reading of the Torah, the pronouncing of the Divine Name (YHWH), and the keeping of the Sabbath (Shabbat). This year I told my grandchildren the story of the wicked king who tried to stop all of these Biblical things and how we would stand together against that wicked king’s ban, and I think they liked the idea of being modern heroes like Judah Maccabee just fine.
Their mother did bring a dreidel, but I must admit, it felt a little weird to be gambling, in a way. Although growing up in New Mexico, I do remember a playmate at school bringing in a hand-carved wooden top shaped like a dreidel, and us playing the game “Saca y Pon” (Take and Put), which is essentially the dreidel game, only with Spanish letters for Leave (D – Deja) Take All (T – Todo), Take Some (Saca) and Put (Pon).
We didn’t make Jewish food at Hanukkah (though we actually intended to because we love it – but we love all good food) but we did have a good communal meal, and shared in prayers, and the highlight to me was being able to begin reading from Genesis 1 to my grandchildren, which I consider a true blessing, since there was a time when my son didn’t want the Bible in his life, and my grandson actually kept his under the bed like contraband.
I see how some people bind themselves with lots of expectations for holidays, whether they are Biblically-based or not. I never want to find myself so bound again. It has been a journey of discovery and I’m happy with where I’m at about it now.
I’m glad there are people who try to focus on Jesus during Christmas. I have learned to really respect that. I also respect self-aware, self-described “pagans” who are honest about December 25th’s history. I also think that a parallel can be drawn from Malach 4:2 of the promised one as the “sun” — and perhaps early Christians drew that comparison as well, preempting the birth of “Sol Invictus” with the true “sun”. Malachi 4:2: “But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings.”
I tend to prefer the idea of His birth at the fall Feast of Tabernacles, though, and the chance to have a clean slate (uncluttered and unconfused with pagan traditions) at honoring Him at that time. It seems feasible that He, being on time, prophetically, for all the Feasts, would be born then. As it reads in John 1:14 YLT, “And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.”
I think the main point is that we uplift Him. He told us He wants us to, in the way that the brasen serpent was uplifted in the desert near Mt. Horeb, to heal the people of their wounds. He is our only Door to the Father. He is our only HOPE, and so we should, ideally, use every opportunity to lift Him up.
John 3:14-15 “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.”
January 1st, 2012 @ 11:25 am
Thank you Ruth for your post. It was very moving.
January 1st, 2012 @ 10:44 pm
Zephaniah 3:18
I will gather you who mourn for the appointed festivals; you will be disgraced no more.
January 1st, 2012 @ 11:25 pm
Proclaiming the Name in Central Park
Early today Keith Johnson marked the start of the solar New Year by going to Cleopatra’s Needle, the oldest PAGAN image in North America. Located in the heart of Central Park, this 3,500 year old obelisk proclaims the Egyptian sun-god Ra to be the “Father” and Horus to be his “Son”. In full view of hundreds of bewildered New Yorkers, Johnson blew the shofar, proclaiming Yehovah to be the Father of creation in the spirit of the verse: “For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same, my name shall be great among the Gentiles” (Mal. 1:11). Watch the video here:
http://youtu.be/Kh_ly4bnHNs
Grandiose symbols all over the world proclaim the names of other deities but those standing up to proclaim the name of the one true God are few and far between. Get involved in changing this by becoming an “Ambassador of the Name”. Sign up for free today at:
http://hishallowedname.com/ambassadors-command-center/
Nehemia Gordon
Jerusalem, Israel
January 2nd, 2012 @ 1:40 am
“Would it have been sin for the Israelites to have used the religious symbols, methods and celebrations of the peoples around them to proclaim a feast to YHWH and to worship Him in those ways on those days? If not, why is it different with us?”
In the context of Deut 12, verse 31 speaks for itself and give an example at the end of the verse, “You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.”
Its different for Christmas because it doesnt fit in this context. On Christmas, the main context of the celebration does not involve sacrificing kids in the fire, worshiping another god such as having religious symbols dedicating it to another god, etc.
If you were to try to take bits and pieces of Christmas that are not the main essentials and attempt to conclude its similar to Deut 12, then the argument is considered genetic fallacy. Example, “Christmas has symbols and somewhere in the Bible spoke against symbols, therefore Christmas is wrong.” Instead of applying the main context, people take bits and pieces from context (same as taking it out of context) and making an incorrect conclusion. Another example would be “Most Christians are believers because their parents were”, “Hitler was from Germany, therefore all German people are evil” or “If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, its a duck”.
January 2nd, 2012 @ 2:02 am
Im probably repeating myself of what I posted in the past but there is no where in Bible that speaks again Christmas. I support the Bible verses you have presented but Christmas does not fit in the context. Celebrating Christmas is not a mandatory holiday nor its adding unto God’s commands which means we are saying that the Lords commands us to celebrate Christmas. Christmas is just an option and no worship to another god is involved. It is a 21st Gentile celebration that does not go against Scripture.
January 2nd, 2012 @ 2:29 am
@Dave Roberts,
Your still taking Deut 20 out of context. You cannot apply it to Christmas.
January 2nd, 2012 @ 5:19 am
@rachael
“I don’t think the attitude is against beleivers celebrating. BUt scripture does not support this celebration. In the NT they were not celebrating HIS birth on christmas. THey would have been celebrating it on the Feast of Tabernacles. EMMANUEL came to SUKKAH with us. Not xmas with us.”
You should know that we all do thing that are not in the Bible. Do you have Scripture specifically telling you to put on white socks or blue jeans? Just because its not in Scripture, is it a sin to wear socks?
No one is declaring that “God commands” we must celebrate Christmas. Its an option and its not mandatory. Its not a pagan holiday because it would involve worshiping another god which is not the case.
January 3rd, 2012 @ 6:03 pm
Bo,
I recommend listening to this: http://askdrbrown.org/media/albums/ICN/SpiritualGrowth/Legalism%20vs%20License.mp3
January 5th, 2012 @ 11:05 am
Rachael,
I let your email get away from me–the meaning of “tikkun haolam”, will give my understanding of it.
Feel free to contact me again. Meanwhile I’ll search again.
January 13th, 2012 @ 10:49 am
Ben KC,
You wrote:
Straw man to the max man! What does socks and blue jeans have to do with the discussion of using pagan celebrations to supposedly worship YHWH? The day that has been proclaimed to celebrate Messiah’s birth by the Catholic church is on the date of pagan deity worship. It incorporates many symbols of pagan worship. Can you not see the difference between socks and mistletoe…between blue jeans and kneeling in front of a tree with presents?
Dates/holidays are part of how the pagans worship their deities. We are not to inquire as to how the heathen worship and do so to YHWH. He has revealed the special dates of His choosing to us. Messiah and the early believers kept these dates.
Deuteronomy 12
30 Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.
31 Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.
You wrote:
The Catholic church declared it. You just go along with it and that makes it OK somehow? It is a pagan holiday, because most that celebrate it are worshiping things. Covetousness is Idolatry, according to Paul. Greed to the max is the spirit of Xmas.
Colossians 3
5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Shalom
January 13th, 2012 @ 11:38 am
Bo,
No, its not a strawman argument. If you dont see my point, then I have to no reason to explain it all over.
Dates are part of pagan worship but there is no pagan worship in Christmas. Its how the Bible defines what is pagan. Again, no one is worshiping another god and doing anything that contradicts Scripture. The holiday doesnt promote worshiping a golden calf, Christmas tree, etc.
Seriously Bo? The Catholic Church argument? Sigh… Your arguments is getting ridiculous. The Catholic has no authority over me so it makes no sense to even bring this up. They cannot tell us what holidays to celebrate. Again, they have no authority over us! Its voluntary. Period.
Bo, just be aware of genetic fallacy in your arguments. I dont have to define it for you. You can google it for yourself again.
January 13th, 2012 @ 11:42 am
Ill post it up for the public on the definition Genetic Fallacy
The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone’s origin rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context.
January 13th, 2012 @ 11:44 am
Example of genetic fallacy
From Attacking Faulty Reasoning by T. Edward Damer, Third Edition p. 36:
You’re not going to wear a wedding ring, are you? Don’t you know that the wedding ring originally symbolized ankle chains worn by women to prevent them from running away from their husbands? I would not have thought you would be a party to such a sexist practice.” There may be reasons why people may not wish to wear wedding rings, but it would be logically inappropriate for a couple to reject the notion of exchanging wedding rings on the sole grounds of its sexist origins.
January 13th, 2012 @ 1:47 pm
Ben KC,
“The Genetic Fallacy is the most general fallacy of irrelevancy involving the origins or history of an idea. It is fallacious to either endorse or condemn an idea based on its past—rather than on its present—merits or demerits, UNLESS its past in some way affects its present value.”-from: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/genefall.html
Since many present Xmas customs have been shown to be against direct scriptural injunctions, the “present value” is seriously in question. The ancient past and the recent past can be shown to “affect the present value” adversely on both a scriptural and a cultural basis.
Another problem arises in who is the judge of the merits. If we are the judges, then we are putting ourselves in the place of Elohim. If we let YHWH’s word do the judging, then we can know rightly what is good and evil. To do the judging ourselves, we continue to be partakers of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which is equivalent to rebellion.
It becomes obvious that a genetic fallacy can only be sited and “proved” when there is a lack of direct revelation on right and wrong. This being the case, the true genetic fallacy is when someone tries to say that adopting cultural remnants of paganism for celebration and worship of YHWH is permitted due to the fact that it is not attached to idolatry any longer. So, they try to prove that there has been a break from “out and out” idolatry by attempting to show those pagan customs are only cultural now.
To some degree, usually a large one, past cultures got their celebrations and symbols from idolatrous religion. Where do these current cultures symbols and celebrations come from but from the past cultures…at least usually. If there were no prohibition from the true Elohim or no true Elohim, we could be shown to be wrong in denouncing the using of those relics of paganism on a genetic basis. But there is a true Elohim that says he abhors those relics.
Shalom
January 13th, 2012 @ 2:15 pm
Bo,
Im going to disengage on this topic for now because I will be repeating myself over again. Let the public decide for themselves when they read this in the future. But again, you are still using genetic fallacy.
January 13th, 2012 @ 6:27 pm
Ben KC,
I have clearly proven that you are wrong to claim that I am guilty of genetic fallacy. You are approving pagan customs and grasping at straws and setting up straw man arguments to justify your position.
Shabbat Shalom
January 13th, 2012 @ 6:51 pm
I don’t celebrate christmas for christian reasons, just enjoy(usually) the family reuniting. I don’t ever personally remember celebrating Christmas for “religious” reasons. Not because I think it’s wrong but because I don’t honor day above another….this would include Easter, Sabbath, etc.
And to Bo, while I don’t agree with your conclusions I am realizing more and more the significance of the feasts and various Jewish days as having important spiritual significance for God’s people.
February 10th, 2012 @ 5:35 am
David and three people once asked the Lord Jesus,in prayer,for His feelings on various things ; they even said ‘tell us something that makes you sick’ – He replied ‘Christmas’ ; He later told David why.
Here is a link to get a free zipfile/MP3 download of the talk he discusses this on (he mentioned it near the end of a lovely talk),a talk entitled ‘What is the truth about Christmas’ ?
Jesus said make [hot] disciples,not simply hot dinners,and not festivals ; if that is how Jesus feels about ‘Christmas’,how should His disciples feel about it ?
Do get the free talk – get all of them !
http://www.davidpawson.com/anchor/anchor.nsf/MP3-ListFree?OpenForm&
February 10th, 2012 @ 7:27 am
Correcting the grammar a bit on previous post,so as not to make anyone think ‘make [hot] disciples….’ was why Jesus does not like Christmas,it is actually my comment. And adding a bit here too !
Here is corrected bit :
At the end of Matthew,Jesus said make [hot] disciples,not simply hot dinners,and not festivals.In the 2000 years since,some who call themselves ‘Christians’ have done what He did NOT tell them to,and not done what He DID tell them to.
If Christmas makes Jesus sick,how should His disciples feel about it today ?
Do download the free talk.