• Help Spread the Fire
  • Click here to read Dr. Brown's latest article
  • The Jewish Genius Named Saul-Paul

    March 1, 2012 | 54 Comments

    Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

    [Download MP3]

    Dr. Brown shares insights about the message and ministry of Saul of Tarsus, better known as the apostle Paul, from his new book The Real Kosher Jesus: Revealing the Secrets of the Hidden Messiah.

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line:  Because Paul had the heart of God, he realized that the Jewish people had a calling, not just to be a faithful people, but to make God known to the ends of the earth.  The messianic era had begun, and therefore he carried out the messianic mission so the gentiles would become an acceptable offering to God.  

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line:  Paul has often been misunderstood, and accused of being the “bad guy” who corrupted the message and changed everything.  However, when rightly understood, we see Paul–the loyal Jew–fulfilling the mission of Israel through Jesus the Messiah!


    SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY!

    Pre-Order A Signed, Hardcover Edition of:
    The Real Kosher Jesus

    Dr. Brown’s Latest Book!!

    ONLY $50 POSTAGE PAID!

    Call 1-800-278-9978 , or ORDER ONLINE!

    Other Resources:

    The Real Kosher Jesus; and Monday’s Musings with Dr. Brown

    Countering the Counter-Missionaries [22 mp3 set] An important resource will be a great faith builder for those who are struggling, a great outreach tool for those who are seeking, and a great source of edification and enrichment for those who are involved in Jewish evangelism.

    60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices and Jesus: Messiah or Not? (DVD Debate with Rabbi Gold)

    -


     

    Debate – Dr Brown and Rabbi Singer

    Dr Brown Debates Rabbi Tovia Singer on Sid Roth’s Radio show “Time is running short”.

    Dr Brown and Rabbi Tovia Singer debate on a variety of topics, from the Messianic fulfillments of Yeshua to the core foundations of Christianity and Judaism.

    This fascinating debate has a surprise ending!

    Spread the Word:
    • E-mail this story to a friend!
    • Facebook
    • Digg
    • del.icio.us
    • Mixx
    • MySpace
    • Technorati
    • Sphinn
    • StumbleUpon
    • TwitThis

    Comments

    54 Responses to “The Jewish Genius Named Saul-Paul”

    1. David Haaron
      March 1st, 2012 @ 3:40 pm

      Sir I must say that you are telling a fragment of the truth about Israel and Hebrew people.
      Modern Israel are eastern Europeans who are descendants of the khazars, that is a well known fact and the truth is coming out surely slowly just as the Bible say, and that is fact.

      The world and most christian’s have align with the messianic liars who say they are Jews but are not Jews but worship in the synagogue of satan.
      these liars are infiltrators who are a war like people who will kill and steal and turn to the talmud to justify their terrorism.

      I pray that your eyes will be open and turn to the truth because we are in the end times. BETTER TRUTH THAN FABRICATED LIES.

      Stay peace

    2. Dan1el
      March 1st, 2012 @ 4:44 pm

      Does anyone know any good books expounding on the idea, “the Scripture makes you wise unto salvation” ?

      I don’t understand all the typology…

    3. Ruth
      March 1st, 2012 @ 11:10 pm

      A Jewish person on FB wrote that if Paul had been a student of Gamaliel, why isn’t there any documentation of that. He claims that lists of Gamaliel’s students have been found and Paul’s name is not there. I asked him to provide me with the link to that, but he hasn’t, and I suspect it’s because he read that on a site somewhere without any proof actually furnished. I’m just wondering (and I’ve been searching the web myself) if anyone knows of any such “proof.”

    4. Dan1el
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 12:03 am

      What school has the best near-eastern languages program ?

    5. David Roberts
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 12:57 am

      “made and wired a different way”

      Are Jews a different kind, species to non-Jews? Are non-Jews like monkeys that should have lower standards because they’re made and wired differently?

    6. Jabez H.
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 1:02 am

      Ruth, Who defended Jesus’ Apostles in the Sanhedrin in Acts 5:23? Is the same record’s mention regarding your question then real evidence, along with all of the New Testament? You might research the etimology of Saul of Tarsus and find a record of his precise name, and research it indeed in time and place schooling, to see if Gamaliel’s disciples or students also exist in fact of any other First Century record, as with Luke’s record (as in Acts 22:3. It is Rabban Gamaliel I [רבן גמליאל הזקן; Greek: Γαμαλιήλ ο Πρεσβύτερος] who taught Saul). His lineage saturated Temple Authority pedigree and enmeshment.

      If it is not in such a record then consider how those who took a vow to kill him, when he was rescured by the Roman garrison, might feel after he was taken into protective custody. Would record of him be erradicated from the leadership of then religious Israel, kind of like the Palestinian PLO have done with Wahlid Shoebat?, after the fact of his teenage involvment with them?

    7. Dan1el
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 1:07 am

      Dr. Brown,
      Why did Paul live like a Jew (took a vow once) if Jesus said NEVER to take a vow (Yaakov’s Epistle reiterates the command).

    8. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 1:54 am

      Ruth, nonsense about any kind of definitive list of Gamaliel’s students being found.

    9. Jabez H.
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 2:44 am

      Amen, that is why I hoped you would look for yourself, Ruth. Little is known of Gamaliel, except Sanhedren law mention and position mention. We cannot be persuaded by every hearsay on any details and need to go looking, looking.

      As for Paul taking a vow: who told him to, and why? You can answer your own question from Acts’ accounts.

    10. Ruth
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 4:44 am

      Thanks, Dr. Brown and Jabez. (We were having a discussion and it was for the purposes of that exchange that I wanted to know.)

    11. Ruth
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 4:51 am

      Dan1el,

      I know it’s controversial, but IF the Gospel of Matthew was originally written in Hebrew, I understand that the passage where it appears that Yeshua said to not swear at all (in the Greek), actually says, do not swear FALSELY in the Hebrew. That also is in sync with the Torah. Nehemia Gordon covers this point, among many others in his video, “The Hebrew Yeshua vs. The Greek Jesus.”

      Again, it can’t be proven for certain that Matthew WAS written in Hebrew because we don’t have originals (only copies) from the first century. But Gordon does present a very good argument for why it was.

    12. Dan1el
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 9:54 am

      Ruth,
      That debate would be ended by reading Yaakov, wouldn’t it? He says the exact same command.

    13. Eric
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 2:40 pm

      Dear David Haaron,

      I know your post was directed to Dr. Brown, but I want to respond to some of the things that you’ve said.

      First you said:
      “Modern Israel are eastern Europeans who are descendants of the khazars,that is a well known fact and the truth is coming out surely slowly just as the Bible say, and that is fact.”

      Where is your proof for your claims?

      Check out this article debunking the myth that Ashkenazi Jews are descendants from the Khazars:

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/06/03/the-dna-of-abraham-s-children.html

      Plus, there are tons of Mizrahi Jews and Sephardi Jews. Jews who come from Arab countries – various Asian countries, Latin countries, African countries, etc… Do you believe they are all fake Jews too?

    14. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 5:09 pm

      David,

      Keep seeking the truth, David, and give up the fabricated lies. It will set you free. And please do listen to the other comments here. If you’re the same David who called me, this is where you need to start: Listen and learn.

      Grace to you!

    15. David Roberts
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 6:47 pm

      @David Haaron,

      The fact the Ashkenazy Cohenim have the same DNA as the Middle-Eastern Cohenim isn’t enough? If the Ashkenazy Cohenim were just Khazars, they wouldn’t share the same DNA would they?

      Would you call British people, not truly British if some French married among them?

      If some Mexicans married some White Americans, does that make their offspring, not-American?

      Just because there have been converts to Judaism over since the days of Moses, doesn’t make the Jewish people any less Jewish.

    16. David Roberts
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 9:47 pm

      @Dr. Brown,
      I was going to write to you that I found your comments at 84 minutes logically inconsistent, but then I came to understand what you think. I don’t agree, but at least I see where you’re coming from.

      Your said,

      “A traditional Jew, gets up in the morning and prays, a Jewish male, and he thanks God, one of the first prayers he prays, I thank God, he says, that I’m not a woman, that I’m not a Gentile, that I’m not a slave… …Because from a traditional Jewish point of view, only a Jewish free male is responsible to keep all the commandments of the Torah and that is the highest calling.”

      Then you said,

      “Paul says, no, no caste system, no class system, Jews are not higher than Gentiles.”

      I was going to object and say, how you can say that when you discourage Gentiles from sanctifying themselves and growing in higher levels of holiness according to the Torah. From my perspective the more holiness a person has, the better, so in some sense, I agree with that Orthodox prayer. And from my perspective, what you do when assigning separate roles for Jews and Gentile Believers creates a caste/class system. But from your perspective, if God chooses to make a Gentile and assigns him a certain role and level of holiness, that is equally valid, and not better or worse than a son of Aaron who goes into the holy of holies for the entire nation of Israel once a year, right?

    17. David Roberts
      March 2nd, 2012 @ 10:07 pm

      @Dr. Brown,

      I should clarify,
      From your perspective, if God chooses to make a Gentile and assigns him a certain role and certain level of holiness, that is equally valid, and not better or worse than a member of the nation of God who sanctifies him/herself and keeps all the Torah commandments?

      I have a weakness in that when I talk to someone who I feel will not hear me, I overextend my argument to make the point more obvious, the only problem then is that it is no longer valid. When I said, a son of Aaron, is that even a Jew can not choose to be a Cohen (except for the Nazarite vow), so for a Jew, that would be to covet what is not their’s to have, like Korach coveted the priesthood. But throughout the Tanakh, Gentiles were always permitted to join the people of God and live as the Covenant people do.

    18. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 12:02 am

      David,

      I do not believe that when a Gentile believer focuses on Torah obedience that that person will grow in holiness as a result of that, and I do pray that you will be able to step back from the wrong emphases in your life and by focusing on intimate relationship with Yeshua by the Spirit, become like Him and thereby take on the ultimate reflection of holiness. I’ll not get into another discussion here about believers and the Torah, but I will once again remind you of the spiritual dangers I see before you and how you seem to have reacted to bad experiences in certain churches years ago that have now caused you to take on a false identity and a misplaced spiritual emphasis. I wish I could interact more, but time doesn’t permit it, nor is this the place to minister extensively to individuals. Live in the opening verses of John 15 for the next few years and you will be a different person in the end.

    19. David Roberts
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 1:13 am

      @Dr. Brown,

      I appreciate your concern, but the only way I could stop keeping the Torah in good conscience would be to lose faith in the reliability of the Hebrew Bible. If one was able to destroy my faith in the Hebrew bible, then they could get me to stop keeping the Torah, but without the Hebrew bible, I wouldn’t believe in Yeshua either, since the Jewish Messiah is built upon the foundation of the Tanakh, so all it would do is turn me into an atheist or something like it.

      For me to stop keeping Torah would be like Rechabites to drink wine.

      “The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah, saying, “Go to the house of the Rechabites, speak to them, and bring them into the house of the Lord, into one of the chambers, and give them wine to drink.”

      … Then I set before the sons of the house of the Rechabites bowls full of wine, and cups; and I said to them, “Drink wine.”

      But they said, “We will drink no wine, for Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, commanded us, saying, ‘You shall drink no wine, you nor your sons, forever. You shall not build a house, sow seed, plant a vineyard, nor have any of these; but all your days you shall dwell in tents, that you may live many days in the land where you are sojourners.’ Thus we have obeyed the voice of Jonadab the son of Rechab, our father, in all that he charged us, to drink no wine all our days, we, our wives, our sons, or our daughters, nor to build ourselves houses to dwell in; nor do we have vineyard, field, or seed. But we have dwelt in tents, and have obeyed and done according to all that Jonadab our father commanded us. But it came to pass, when Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came up into the land, that we said, ‘Come, let us go to Jerusalem for fear of the army of the Chaldeans and for fear of the army of the Syrians.’ So we dwell at Jerusalem.”

      Then came the word of the Lord to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Go and tell the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “Will you not receive instruction to obey My words?” says the Lord. “The words of Jonadab the son of Rechab, which he commanded his sons, not to drink wine, are performed; for to this day they drink none, and obey their father’s commandment. But although I have spoken to you, rising early and speaking, you did not obey Me. I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me. 16 Surely the sons of Jonadab the son of Rechab have performed the commandment of their father, which he commanded them, but this people has not obeyed Me.”’

      … And Jeremiah said to the house of the Rechabites, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Because you have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts and done according to all that he commanded you, therefore thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not lack a man to stand before Me forever.”’” Jeremiah 35

    20. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 1:25 am

      David,

      As I posted some days ago — and this will be my last post on this subject with you at this time — you have gone backwards and not forward. Gal 3:22-25. The foundation is secure, now build on it in Yeshua. And since this is not the place for extended personal interaction about your own walk (or mine), I’m requesting that you refrain from continuing a discussion with me here and just leave things between you and God, OK? I have no doubt that if I met you I would recognize things you do that are not found in the Torah at all but are rather part of much later Jewish tradition, all symptomatic of your heading in the wrong direction. (If this last statement is totally false in terms of “Jewishness,” feel free to correct that here; otherwise, please do let this conversation end here, since it keeps coming here and on my FB page, and I’ve shared my views with you repeatedly, out of love and concern.)

    21. David Roberts
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 2:15 am

      “Jewish tradition, all symptomatic of your heading in the wrong direction. (If this last statement is totally false in terms of “Jewishness,” feel free to correct that here”

      Yes, I follow some Jewish customs. I’d say it’s fair to say that the Apostles had many traditions and customs that they practised which are not recorded in the NT. יעקב הצדיק asked Paul to prove he believed in keeping the customs. So I would think there’s nothing wrong with them as long as they don’t violate the word of God.

    22. Jabez H.
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 6:42 am

      David,

      To claim Yeshua as Messiah is a personal claim, as well as a literal realization for the People of the Book of the chosen Nation. Have you contemplated the writing to the Hebrews of the Brit Chadasha? The perspective it grants, and warning given, especially about falling back under the law, sober one’s entire heart of obedience, devotion, and comprehension of the need for mercy to be of Him, not a call to continued sacrifice.

    23. David Roberts
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 7:37 am

      @Jabez H.,

      I’ve read the entire NT, but I build my faith from the foundation upward. i.e. Torah, Prophets, Writings, Gospels, Acts, Letters of James, Peter and John, then last of all Paul. This means the Torah is the supreme foundation and anything in the Prophets has to be in harmony with the Torah and anything in the Writings needs to be in harmony with the Prophets, and anything in the Gospels needs to be in harmony with the Writings, and anything in Acts needs to be in harmony with the Gospels and anything in the letters of James, Peter and John needs to be in harmony with Acts, and anything in Paul’s letters needs to be in harmony with all previous revelation.

      I don’t build my faith from the ceiling down to the floor. i.e. I don’t look at the Tanakh through Paul. I look at Paul through the Tanakh. I look up at the ceiling from the floor. I believe this is the only sober way of reading the Scriptures that is intellectuality honest, otherwise God is a liar if He can just change His word/revelation/promises/instructions/commandments whenever, like He’s a changeable God like shifting sand.

    24. ron david metcalf
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 9:07 am

      This is going to require much more wisdom than knowledge, because it is such a volatile subect.
      Look at the colors of the spectrum: red, yellow, blue. Now complete the rainbow into a circle, and you have the two courts and the sanctuary proper. The outer court of the Gentiles is where we enter the gates of salvation, and are secure in Yeshua Messiah. But ‘camping out there’ is the milk and not the meat of the Word. Going inward into the court of Israel is not going back, but forward: James through Revelation: there are no’coincidences’ in the order of the Word. The latter chapters of Revelation bring us into the Temple once again, or Bridal chamber if you will. This is the hottest blue flame, and where we want to be: in the holy place. This is not argument; it is ‘seeing’ and ‘hearing’ the Word. It transcends the written page; yet does not deny the physical aspect (Gnosticism).
      In Him, Ron M.

    25. Dan1el
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 10:43 am

      If I’m not mistaken, Dr. Brown told people to STOP TALKING ABOUT THAT

    26. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 10:51 am

      David, exactly as I said. You are not a Jew; you don’t understand key NT principles about the Torah and life in the Spirit; and you have taken on Jewish traditions as PART OF YOUR IDENTITY. You have gone backwards, not forwards, as you constantly indicate in your posts and comments where relevant. May the Lord bring you into the fullness of the revelation of Yeshua the divine Son and the reality of life in the Spirit.

      To everyone else: Feel free to correspond privately with David about his beliefs and we’ll reserve this thread for discussion about Paul. Thanks!

    27. Jabez H.
      March 3rd, 2012 @ 6:09 pm

      So, Paul was indeed amazing. After persecuting, and apparently contributing to the death of many of the new sect of the Way, being next suddenly interrupted in this hot pursuit by Jesus on the road to Damascus: he led a new life of focused devotion, intention, declaration, and agape’ achievement. He obeyed the charges given to him directly by Messiah Yeshua to be the primary agent of His Message to the Nations. He was not alone in this work, but was the point man so to speak for a long season.

      Acts 20&21 opens the door to understanding his change of heart and new direction sown/known, and how it differed from past pursuit. Paul, who persecuted the saints, then discovered, “I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. I hae declard to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus….if only, I may finish the race and complete the task teh lord Jesus has given me–the task of testifying to the gospel of God’s grace. Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all man. For I have not hestitated to proclaim to you the who will of God.” (Acts 20: 20-21, 22b-27).

      I limit the selections on his tearful departure to Jerusalem to remarks he made on his own innocence, as directly related to immersion in the work of the Gospel. He then committed to those of the churches seeing him off, “Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified” (v. 32). His work changed his identification for resulting sanctification, which granted his innocence of even past blood shed in the pursuit of a certain religious jealousy, counted thereafter as ‘nothing’ (I count it all as nothing, now what he counts as everything is in view).

      A shift of allegiance is indeed redemptive for Paul, and is indeed as Dr. B. has described him to have become as a result of meeting Jesus.

    28. Sheila
      March 4th, 2012 @ 9:15 am

      Hi,

      I set up the television to record the series, Day of Discovery, so that I could catch the Isaiah 53 recording and (lo and behold) the show was airing at 7 am this morning on the “ion E” channel! I wish it could have been 3x’s as long.

      Those on the west coast may be able to catch it on satellite. Search for “Day of Discovery” programming.

      :)

    29. ron david metcalf
      March 4th, 2012 @ 6:34 pm

      To be a bit more precise, though I’m not trying to write anything in stone or start a new doctrine:
      Matt.-John = RED
      Acts- 2 Corin. = ORANGE
      Gal.- Phile. = YELLOW
      Heb.- Jude = GREEN
      Rev. = BLUE.

      This does not REPLACE the OT, but fulfills.
      Revelation confirms that there is still unfinished prophecy in the OT; “until heaven and earth pass,” as Jesus said.
      Note that Paul was indeed the champion of explaining the role of the Spirit.
      In Him, Ron M.

    30. Bo
      March 5th, 2012 @ 10:01 am

      David Roberts,

      I see that you have been exhorted to live in the opening verses of John 15 for the next few years.

      John 15
      1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
      2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
      3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
      4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
      6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
      7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
      8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
      9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
      10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
      11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
      12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
      13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
      14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

      Truly we can do nothing that amounts to anything without Y’shua. Truly we will ask and not receive if Messiah’s words do not abide in us and we in Him by keeping His word/commandments. We love Messiah only when we are keeping His commandments. Messiah remained in the Father’s love by keeping His commandments.

      Are we to seek to only abide in the Son’s love and not the Father’s? Or are we to live by every word of YHWH…both the Son’s and the Father’s words? Can we really abide in one and not the other? Are they not one?

      We are the friends of Messiah if we do whatever He commands us. He is the one that spoke face to face with Moses, and appeared to Abraham and Joshua. He appeared to and spoke Paul also…and John…do not forget John. The love that Messiah and all these men spoke of was wrapped up in keeping YHWH’s commandments…all of them. You do well to live by every word that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth. For that command was given by the Father and the Son.

      Deuteronomy 8
      3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

      Matthew 4
      4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

      Paul calls this kind of submission being spiritual. He calls not submitting to YHWH’s law carnal mindedness.

      Romans 8
      4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
      5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      Paul is indeed a genius. He is difficult to understand. It is easy to twist what he says to our own destruction, being led away with the error of the lawbreakers. At least that is what Peter said about Paul’s writings.

      We have the tendency to only see the things that we believe in his writings, instead of accepting what he writes at face value. Keep pressing on in the example of Paul, who continued to keep YHWH’s law after conversion.

      Do not keep the law to obtain salvation, but to live like a saved man. To live like Messiah who kept it perfectly. To walk in His steps. He didn’t keep it to get saved or become righteous. He kept it because He was perfectly righteous. And we abide in Him by keeping His commandments. And without Him we can do nothing. And without Him we will fail to keep the law…His law…His Father’s law. But with Him…!

      My suggestion is that you live by every word of YHWH for the rest of your life. Ok, it isn’t really my suggestion, it is YHWH’s commandment.

      Shalom

    31. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 5th, 2012 @ 9:32 pm

      Bo,

      Thanks for quoting all the wonderful biblical texts, that I adhere to and love! But please be kind enough not to attempt yet another thread into a platform for you to promote your views that all believers are required to observe the Torah of Moses. Thanks for complying!

    32. Bo
      March 5th, 2012 @ 10:08 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Do not fret. I was only bringing a bit of balance to the possible meaning of Paul’s statements and exploring the context and meaning of Y’shua’s words in John 15. This to be encouraging to David to live by every word of YHWH. And, for the record, the Torah of Moses is the Torah of YHWH, unless you are including the rabbinical rulings like the Pharisees and the Orthodox Jews of today.

      Shalom

    33. David Roberts
      March 5th, 2012 @ 11:10 pm

      @Dr. Brown,
      when are you going to get a pro-Torah believing scholar on to debate you?

    34. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 6th, 2012 @ 12:01 am

      David, recommend someone solid and we will contact them.

    35. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 6th, 2012 @ 12:03 am

      Bo,

      I don’t fret, and I was simply saving you unnecessary effort. Also, the phrase “the Law of Moses” in common in the OT, as you surely know. As for Yeshua’s commandments, we’ll let him speak for Himself and leave things there. I will keep my gaze and focus right where it needs to be.

    36. David Roberts
      March 6th, 2012 @ 1:19 am

      @Dr. Brown,
      It’s a shame your Rosh Yeshiva friend in Israel can’t come on. You can’t find a Ph.D. Torah Observant Believer, you could always ask Bo. :p
      I’m in New Zealand so it’s difficult for me to recommend the right person, but surely there are Torah Observant Believers in Israel who know enough to debate you? What about your friend who said there’s no evidence in the NT that the Apostles stopped eating kosher food exclusively?

    37. Eliyahu Moshiach
      March 6th, 2012 @ 6:43 am

      David, let me tell you that I am completely 100 percent, Torah observant, I a Jew, lived in Jerusalem many years, I studied the Torah rules and lived them and the rabbinical rules as well. I wear tzitzit, I have a mezuzah, I have tefillin worth over two thousand dollars, one is rashi tefillin and the other is the rabeinu tam tefillin, ….I love Shabat, I celebrate every Yom Tov, I eat Kosher only, I do all the normal Jewish life things, and cling to the hope of Yeshua being my Messiah. Just wanted to clarify that. Yet I do not demand anyone to live as I do, neither Jew nor Gentile. And yes, the disciples of Yeshua appeared to stay normal Jews with kashrut and Shabat and all that stuff. I can relate, because once it has become a way of life, then you can keep doing it but unto the Lord. But I do not demand it on any other believer – I can not in good faith demand it on a Jewish believer, how could I demand in on a Gentile believer, yet for me and my house, completely Torah observant but with Yeshua being central always.

    38. ron david metcalf
      March 6th, 2012 @ 9:49 am

      I have read more than one argument that James was the official Jerusalem Church’s response to Galatians, but this is still hotly debated and nearly impossible to prove one way or the other.
      Peter was rebuked in Antioch: Paul’s turf. It is recorded in Acts that Paul left the first-established position; not vice versa. Peter and John, having walked with Yeshua Messiah for three or more years, would have no reason to officially rebuke Paul, as Jesus’ half-brother already had (in this argument); they had many other concerns.
      This does not mean that Paul was completely right or wrong; both sides had valid points.
      ‘Canonizing’ the debate; that is, making Paul’s words as inerrant as The Word, has led to all sorts of trouble. But if this hadn’t been done, the history of the early Church may not have been so readily available to us today.
      Peter’s ambivalence is seen as admitting defeat in modern terms; but this is prejudiced toward the Gentile argument. There is still room for Eliyahu’s postition above (thank you). As for me, a Messianic Christian, I see a lot of earthly advantages to following many parts of the Law; yet I don’t think my Heavenly Father is condemning me to hell for failing to follow every tiny precept. Like a child, I still grow and learn.
      In Him, Ron M.

    39. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 6th, 2012 @ 10:36 am

      David,

      I’m not sure who you mean in Israel. (One secret believer there who fits the description remains totally in secret.) I have some formerly frum friends who are believers in Yeshua, but they would not argue for mandatory Torah observance — especially for Gentiles! As for the other friend you mention, I’m not sure who you’re speaking of either. I had a friend who was with FirstFruits of Zion, but he wasn’t particularly keen on doing a debate and he doesn’t hold to mandatory Torah observance for Gentiles either. The truth be told, I’m hard pressed to think of anyone solid in the Lord who has written on this or taught on this in a serious way. The Ph.D. is not needed. Having a solid biblical or theological background and recognized publications is; otherwise, the interview is not fair to that side. As for the discussion here, we’ll keep focused on Paul.

    40. David Roberts
      March 6th, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

      @Eliyahu Moshiach,

      I just want to make something clear. I don’t believe in demanding it from people. Like some Churches have police that go around checking up on people. I don’t believe in anything like that. What I do believe is that there is an environment which makes Torah growth more natural and likely to happen, and it is that environment that the assemblies of God should have. So what is that environment? Well, the Sedarim are read every week and the elders kept the commandments, that way the spiritual babes will not doubt the leading of the Holy Spirit that happens when they hear Moses preached, while the current environment most Christians have make them doubt their sanity because no-one else is doing it, yet if they lived in the first century, it was exclusively Torah Observant.

      So again, I don’t believe in putting burdens on people and telling them they must do so and so, but I do believe in creating an Apostolic-like environment. They were in the temple daily and in the Synagogues every Sabbat and when new Believers enter that kind of environment they were grow in a completely different kind of way than if they entered a modern western Church.

    41. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 6th, 2012 @ 10:13 pm

      David,

      I appreciate you wanting to make things clear about your own beliefs, but this thread is really not about these issues, OK? And unless you are in a radically Spirit-empowered environment like there was in the Book of Acts, with Jesus being central in all things and with a burning heart to reach a dying world — and not with Torah observance being the central focus — I would say that the environment you’re in would be totally different than that of a truly apostolic movement. I absolutely do NOT see the apostolic environment the way you primarily describe it, nor is that the emphasis in Acts (unless you describe it as I do here). With that being said, to one and all I repeat: This thread is about Paul and the subject of the show, and we’ll keep our focus there since we’ve already had innumerable threads about Torah observance and believers. Thanks to everyone for complying (and we will pull unrelated posts from here on).

    42. Jabez H.
      March 7th, 2012 @ 2:48 am

      Paul was not a loner, though initially addressed in conversion primarily in an envelope of revelation given to the One key
      person. It seems wonderful that the picture of the disciples working together in the nations seems to not be engaged of rivalries, nor self conscious pursuits, though some distractions seemed to sidetrack some from a cooperative effort. When you read less recognizable names working as One in Acts, Paul then fits in as well as stands out. What are the prophetic messages he gave which are relevant to today’s challenges to be faithful witnesses of Christ?

    43. David Roberts
      March 7th, 2012 @ 5:34 am

      One of my favorite themes that Paul taught on is the resurrection. Our faith stands on the resurrection of our lord and saviour, and Paul expounds on this in the most depth. The promised hope and assurance that those in him will be changed before you can blink and then we’ll be forever with the Lord is something I think about on a daily basis and I have the apostle Paul to thank for that.

    44. ron david metcalf
      March 7th, 2012 @ 9:56 am

      Yes, but it seems clear from Scripture that Paul wanted to lead what he had been given charge of (“follow my example”, etc.) This is in contrast to the model David referred to in #40; though I don’t agree on Torah observance as a prerequisite, the synagogue teaching model that Jesus (sometimes) used but Paul seemed to dismiss (as an ex-Pharisee) has carried down to modern times as “preaching” being more important than “teaching” (Q: is the five-fold ministry equal? I would say no based on Paul’s evaluation.)
      So, perhaps, this is for discussion, the elevation of “professors” and “pastors” came from this (e.g. bishop/deacon hierarchy, rather than ‘elders’); to which I see Jesus had a different view, in not exalting man to this type of position (again, for discussion).
      “Only the senior pastor can hear from GOD.” I despise this tradition. This makes me an outsider; but I can also state that Jesus was an outsider to the Jewish hierarchy. In the face of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I wonder whether a subsequent Gentile hierarchy was His doing.
      In Him, Ron M.

    45. Dan1el
      March 7th, 2012 @ 10:01 am

      Dr. Brown,
      I am asking YouTube user “ancienthebreworg” if he would be willing; he fits the criteria you mentioned, and it would be very interesting in deed to hear the exchange! Not to mention edifying, and freeing – either way the debate goes, Truth will win out, and we will execute God’s will.

    46. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 7th, 2012 @ 10:36 am

      Dan1el, fits what criteria? This is the guy connected with the very poor “translation” you mentioned and hardly a worthy spokesperson for any movement.

    47. Dan1el
      March 7th, 2012 @ 11:04 am

      Dr. Brown,
      1. A donor to Archaeological Garden, Saul A. Fox, said that because of him (ancienthebreworg), Paleo Hebrew was alive in Israel again! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgSJ1MPklAg&feature=plcp&context=C3b88f3cUDOEgsToPDskL6B4x9V9OgJT6DGGRLEyTl)

      2. Using paleo-Hebrew, he unveils a very fresh and useful dimension to understanding Scripture – using paleo-Hebrew to understand the true original meanings of words (though I don’t necessarily agree 100%, but who do we disagree with)?

      3. You said “The truth be told, I’m hard pressed to think of anyone…
      0. solid in the Lord who has
      1. WRITTEN ON THIS or TAUGHT ON THIS in a serious way.
      2. The Ph.D. is not needed.
      3. Having a solid biblical or theological background
      4. Recognized publications is

      …otherwise, the interview is not fair to that side.”

      I may not have read you correctly…
      0. You don’t really know him personally nor whether he is “strong in the LORD”
      1. He has written many books, authored many videos (has more than a million hits on his YouTube) but I do not know whether you call it “serious”, or not
      2. IDK if he has a Ph.D., but you said it wasn’t necessary
      3. Solid = ?
      4. Recognized publications = by who?

      He seems to be well-acquainted with the material (from watching his videos); however, ofcourse, you will decide who can bring a good debate, or not.

    48. Dan1el
      March 7th, 2012 @ 11:05 am

      #2 CORRECTION***…but when and with whom do we agree with 100% ?

    49. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 7th, 2012 @ 11:23 am

      Dan1el, this stuff is nonsense, and it has nothing to do with the Torah observance question. All of us who studied ancient Hebrew learned the paleo script. It’s no big deal and no big revelation. (I won’t be interacting much on these threads for a while, because of time again, so you may post 100 comments to me but I won’t see them, as is often the case. Just FYI.)

    50. Dan1el
      March 7th, 2012 @ 11:27 am

      K thx

    51. David Roberts
      March 8th, 2012 @ 12:26 am

      Jeff Benner would be an interesting person to hear debate Dr. Brown. They both come from completely different worldviews and methodologies.

    52. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 8th, 2012 @ 12:40 am

      David, I commented on this above, with Dan1el.

    53. Dan1el
      March 8th, 2012 @ 2:02 am

      Dr. Brown,
      Benner is a Torah-observant believer in Yeshua, and seems to be especially acquainted with the roots of Torah; that is the only reason why we thought it might be an interesting debate – but, you’ve already given your answer. Thanks!

      Praise God

    54. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 8th, 2012 @ 1:03 pm

      Encourage him to call in one day, and if we have a good discussion, it can grow from there.

    Leave a Reply